Trades and KG buyout

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from BiasLewis. Show BiasLewis's posts

    Trades and KG buyout

    If you'll think for once that Doc signed on for 5 years just to keep the same group and only have the MLE and LLE to use, put down the pipe!

    The C's will be making a trade that involves multiple players.

    JON's contract, BBD sign and trade, Rondo trade...and perhaps even a KG buyout and return to the team. I saw Ainge get KG in 2007 when no one thought it was possible. I kept saying over and over a trade was coming by the deadline and it did (didn't expect that one though).

    If only 5-6 guys are under contract Ainge isn't going to just fill in with 2nd line players around the Big 3 when this team was considered the best team in the East until the injuries took over.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheDUDDER. Show TheDUDDER's posts

    Re: Trades and KG buyout

    In Response to Trades and KG buyout:
    [QUOTE]If you'll think for once that Doc signed on for 5 years just to keep the same group and only have the MLE and LLE to use, put down the pipe! The C's will be making a trade that involves multiple players. JON's contract, BBD sign and trade, Rondo trade...and perhaps even a KG buyout and return to the team. I saw Ainge get KG in 2007 when no one thought it was possible. I kept saying over and over a trade was coming by the deadline and it did (didn't expect that one though). If only 5-6 guys are under contract Ainge isn't going to just fill in with 2nd line players around the Big 3 when this team was considered the best team in the East until the injuries took over.
    Posted by BiasLewis[/QUOTE]

    Phase 1 - Danny took a bunch of young players and two huge expiring contracts that brought the BIG 3 together.

    Phase 2 - Danny has no young players, is vastly over the cap, the cap is about to become a hard cap at around 60 million (Rondo and the BIG 3 are at about 52 million of that number).  The only options Danny really has is to send KG and Ray somewhere that is looking to unload cap via KG and Ray's expiring contracts so that they can obtain free agents and or more trades.  This would be the Pistons - break up their 4 all-stars and way overpay two players that ensure that your team is mediocre at best.

    I don't advocate anything other than letting all of the contracts to expire and then figure out who is available.  This notion that something is imminent because Doc signed for 5 years is nonsense, Danny said they are basically in no position to do anything knowing what the new CBA will bring.  Danny also said that the team next year could look a lot like this year's team and that perhaps nothing can be done until the following year.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from BiasLewis. Show BiasLewis's posts

    Re: Trades and KG buyout

    I'm sorry Dudder but no one is trading for RA or KG. These guys will retire Celtics. I strongly feel that Rondo would be the one dealt and to free up money KG would accept a buyout and return to the C's.

    The Big 3 may be older but they weren't the ones missing games due to injury. They produced this year even at an All Star level.

    Do you really beleive Doc is going to sign a 5 year deal only to ship 2 of the 3 out of town and begin a rebuilding process when they had the best record before the trade, should be playing a 7th game today. They weren't swept.

    Ainge saying "totally different" could mean trading their starting PG, Shaq retiring, JON gone, BBD gone. That is totally different.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Re: Trades and KG buyout

    Very good points Bias

    i have mentioned trades of Ray or KG many a time... but only if the wink wink buyouts accompany them.

    If it is not in a move FOR Howard... and Danny is convinced we won't be able to land him and gives up on the cap space of 2012... taking on other clubs bigger long term contracts for KG and a pick.... then having KG come right back to us... is the way to remain a contender.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Re: Trades and KG buyout

    There are endless scenario's like this where we save others money

    One I menioned was KG to Cleveland for Baron Davis and Varajao ... Gilbert HATES LBJ and would likely want to save money (35 million) while in te process making a team who won't be good by the time Cleveland rebuilds havign a shot to knock of the Heat in the next 2 years.

    Make that move and Davis can close out games, play 18-20 mins behind rondo. I like Varajao more as a backup PF. Doing gritty work and hitting a mid-range J. Splitting time w/ KG.

    Then we can have Ray and DWest at the 2 and PP/Green at the 3.

    Al we need is to fidn a way to turn Avery, Krstic, Baby. some of our picks, etc into a legit Center. I have mentioned Kaman.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from BiasLewis. Show BiasLewis's posts

    Re: Trades and KG buyout

    Picture this conversation:

    Ainge: Hey Wyc i'm hearing Doc is going to get some major offers, let's lock him up.

    Wyc: Ok let's get some numbers together and present it to him ASAP.

    Ainge: Ok, the other thing is I think for him to come back longer than one year is some long term plan.

    Wyc: What are you suggesting?

    Ainge: Well it may take some roster shakeups and some major financial commitments to keep this thing going a few years.

    Wyc: I figured it wouldn't be easy. What's the plan?

    Ainge: I'm thinking in order to make some serious moves we may have to move Rondo and perhaps buyout KG and RA. Let's bank on them returning before we make those moves.

    Wyc: I wasn't expecting those ideas (both laugh).

    Ainge: Well I look at it like this. That money is already committed so why pay interest on it and drag it out 2 years? This core can still produce and we can still win in tis league but we have to drastically change the pieces around them with some serious talent. I believe Doc would be on board with freeing up cap room to make a splash.

    Wyc: A splash??

    Ainge: Yes I'm talking about Howard or Paul

    Wyc: Is this doable?

    Ainge: It could be once money is freed up and we discuss with all parties. It's going to take some serious planning but we've pulled off bigger deals. (both laugh)

    Wyc: Howard is going to be tough?

    Ainge: Yes but getting Paul first is the key

    Wyc: YOu sure about giving up Rajon?

    Ainge: No but one we get Doc's committment and your committment we can start to brainstorm on keeping things going for the next 3-4 years. He's our best asset to begin the process. I hate the idea of it but looking at the big picture we sacrifice one to better the whole.

    Wyc: Let's get Doc done first and circle back to see what he thinks.

    Ainge: Ok
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from concord27. Show concord27's posts

    Re: Trades and KG buyout

    If you are talking a title Baron Davis and Kamen will never be enough to get it done.  We seem to always go for the the players approaching the downside of their career.   I think Davis and Kamen might make us slightly better perhaps a few games better in overall record.  But to think Baron Davis if for closing out games and that Rondo is not in their is saying we don't think Rondo is going to improve.  If  he doesn't get better and can't finish out games a la Perkins why would we keep Rondo.  Is there anything more important than a point guard at the end of a game?
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from jrmccook. Show jrmccook's posts

    Re: Trades and KG buyout

    In Response to Re: Trades and KG buyout:
    [QUOTE]I'm sorry Dudder but no one is trading for RA or KG. These guys will retire Celtics. I strongly feel that Rondo would be the one dealt and to free up money KG would accept a buyout and return to the C's. The Big 3 may be older but they weren't the ones missing games due to injury. They produced this year even at an All Star level. Do you really beleive Doc is going to sign a 5 year deal only to ship 2 of the 3 out of town and begin a rebuilding process when they had the best record before the trade, should be playing a 7th game today. They weren't swept. Ainge saying "totally different" could mean trading their starting PG, Shaq retiring, JON gone, BBD gone. That is totally different.
    Posted by BiasLewis[/QUOTE]
    Kg's and RA's trade value may be the highest it's been in years and for 2 reasons.
    Teams that think they can move up to the next level with a few tweeks (memphis, atlanta, portland, etc) will trade bad contracts, prospects and picks to acquire allen and kg and here's why. 
    1) they are both still productive and could be the missing peice for a team
    2) they're still gate draws 
    3) and this is the most important one - they are in their last year of contract. This is especially critical for kg.  You take a team that's at the cap or barely over, and get kg for your bad contracts and now you have 2 max or near max contracts to offer players. Teams have seen the lebron/bosh effect and this could be a domino effect for teams (see nj) looking to bring in 2 stars.
    Danny lived through the begging phase of the c's getting old and was traded when other's should have been. He has enough sense to know that their 3 year window (now 4 years) has passed and it's better to quickly re-tool than hope kg, ra, pp find the fountain of youth and that way we don't end up with another 10-15 yr bad/mediocre stretch like in the 90's - mid 2000's.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from OC-CeltsFan. Show OC-CeltsFan's posts

    Re: Trades and KG buyout

    I think it's too early to speculate given the CBA but I would agree with Dudder that DA probably won't make huge moves this year given our salary situation after 2012.  They make take their chances on a shortend season helping our old guys be fresh for the playoffs, and then hopefully make a big name FA signing with the cap room we'll have after that.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Re: Trades and KG buyout

    In Response to Re: Trades and KG buyout:
    [QUOTE]If you are talking a title Baron Davis and Kamen will never be enough to get it done.  We seem to always go for the the players approaching the downside of their career.   I think Davis and Kamen might make us slightly better perhaps a few games better in overall record.  But to think Baron Davis if for closing out games and that Rondo is not in their is saying we don't think Rondo is going to improve.  If  he doesn't get better and can't finish out games a la Perkins why would we keep Rondo.  Is there anything more important than a point guard at the end of a game?
    Posted by concord27[/QUOTE]

    Yes I agree with you on Rondo having to improve his shot... if he becomes a 40% mid-range J guy and a 75% FT shooter he will have improved to a satisfactory level for me... and still not be a better clutch shooter than Davis

    We are trying to extend a window here that closed with the current group.

    I think we'd have won the title with the Rondo from '10, Big Baby from '09, DWest alll season long, and shaq in the playoffs putting up the 10-5 in 20 mins he gave us in the Fall.

    With that said, Davis replaces Nate/wafer... not West, and both become a dyamnite 1-2 bench punch in the backcourt, they are 6'3" and can both guard 2's, run the point and hit shots

    We have an entire year of Jeff Green, and he needs to paly 34-36 mins with Ray and Paul down in the high 20's and legit rested for the playoffs.

    Varajao is better than big Baby and can guard Bosh and Boozer and reduce JG's role so he in turn is more effective.

    We'd have to get an entire years worth of 1-186 mins, 4 points, 5 rebounds and 2 blocks from JON.

    And Kaman is a 13-16 point, 8-9 rebound 1-2 block Center who will stabilize that position. 90% of Perk's D with 200% of his offense.

    If we have all those things together we are a contender for sure.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Re: Trades and KG buyout

    Look at this past series w/ Miami

    Robbed of a good chance to win game 1 b/c of fluke James jones craziness and the refs allowing physical play from Heat but punishing us for same/lesser infractions.

    Blew them out in game 3 but Rondo got hurt

    Lead with 4 mins left in both games 4 and 5.

    Now look at the minutes our rotation played vs. Heat to what they can be expected to look like after a future overhaul of the bench like i mentioned above:

    Old guys:

    Kevin - 38.2 mins (drop that down to 30)
    Ray - 40.2 mins (drops to 28)
    Paul - 37.8 mins (drops to 32)
    JON - 21.4 mins (drops to 10)

    Young guys:

    Rondo - 35.4 mins (stays the same)
    West - 23.2 mins (drops to 10)
    Green - 21.2 mins (upped to 30)

    Baby's 12 mins GONE - Varajao plays 16
    Krstic/Shaq's 15 mins GONE - Kaman plays 32

    Baron Davis chips in plays 16-18 minutes (if he is better than West, if DWest is superior he gets more mins).

    THAT is a DEEP team, w/ a rested big three, a healthy better rondo, a real center and a bench full of former starters
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Re: Trades and KG buyout

    also look at the reasons we didn't have the 1 seed

    it was a lack of depth and injuries and the lack of focus/killer instinct by Rondo after the trade (mind not there, nagging injuries as well).

    We'd be deeper and likely not to be  nearly as injury prone next season.

    Meanwhile Miami has little wiggle room around their 3 stars to add quality depth and the regualr season haul doesn't allow them to play the supserstars 40-43 mins a game... so thats how they could lose homecourt to a deeper team... and the bulls-eye being on their backs now instead of ours...
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from wfdog. Show wfdog's posts

    Re: Trades and KG buyout

    In Response to Re: Trades and KG buyout:
    [QUOTE]Picture this conversation: Ainge: Hey Wyc i'm hearing Doc is going to get some major offers, let's lock him up. Wyc: Ok let's get some numbers together and present it to him ASAP. Ainge: Ok, the other thing is I think for him to come back longer than one year is some long term plan. Wyc: What are you suggesting? Ainge: Well it may take some roster shakeups and some major financial commitments to keep this thing going a few years. Wyc: I figured it wouldn't be easy. What's the plan? Ainge: I'm thinking in order to make some serious moves we may have to move Rondo and perhaps buyout KG and RA. Let's bank on them returning before we make those moves. Wyc: I wasn't expecting those ideas (both laugh). Ainge: Well I look at it like this. That money is already committed so why pay interest on it and drag it out 2 years? This core can still produce and we can still win in tis league but we have to drastically change the pieces around them with some serious talent. I believe Doc would be on board with freeing up cap room to make a splash. Wyc: A splash?? Ainge: Yes I'm talking about Howard or Paul Wyc: Is this doable? Ainge: It could be once money is freed up and we discuss with all parties. It's going to take some serious planning but we've pulled off bigger deals. (both laugh) Wyc: Howard is going to be tough? Ainge: Yes but getting Paul first is the key Wyc: YOu sure about giving up Rajon? Ainge: No but one we get Doc's committment and your committment we can start to brainstorm on keeping things going for the next 3-4 years. He's our best asset to begin the process. I hate the idea of it but looking at the big picture we sacrifice one to better the whole. Wyc: Let's get Doc done first and circle back to see what he thinks. Ainge: Ok
    Posted by BiasLewis[/QUOTE]

    I like your creativity Bias. I've been posting the possibility of a Rondo deal for awhile now which made it seem odd to hear Rondo proudly claim that he had an agreement with Doc after the Miami game that they would both be back next year. Couple that with DA claiming that they probably wouldn't deal Rondo and this very well could play out like a scene from Godfather II with Rondo playing the naive and unsuspecting Fredo!
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from BiasLewis. Show BiasLewis's posts

    Re: Trades and KG buyout

    In Response to Re: Trades and KG buyout:
    [QUOTE]All of these ideas of trading the Big Three, and Rondo; is the antithesis of the mystique of and allure of Doc Rivers.  He cites over and over loyalty and the Celtics spend an inordinate amout of time developing you when they decide to develop you.  The Perkins trade has a unquantifiable effect and now we are seeing the talk of more athletic and an open admission for a do-over on Tony Allen.  If we start, packaging players like KG, Pierce, Allen, Rondo (now - the time to trade him has passed), you lose all the trust in what Doc Rivers preach.  2012 a lot of cap space is made by expiring contracts and you restore Celtic Tradition, and Paul, KG, and Allen as luminaries.  This has benefit training of the youngsters.  Big Baby and many young guys have commented that they have changed their ways because of how the Big Three conduccted business and frankly how Doc conducted business.   Lebron and Wade admiration for Boston and how they do business is testament for all big-time free agents who want a path to a championship, and Doc Rivers is now the main attractor, that is why I think he has been locked up with such a lofty arrangement.  Havelichick, JoJo White, Tommy Heihnson, McHale, etc etc are all worhty ambassasors of the tradition, but we need a new generation of Celtics that related to carry that on and provide inspiration and getting another banner with Pierce, Allen, and Garnett does just that... pay huge intangible benefits as a destination spot.  Even Doc and Danny may have trying to do too much in short time frames and not looking at the long term...  Posey may have still been here; Tony Allen...  guys that came off the bench and brought in.   We have spent a lot of time and money getting Big Baby to this point and we cannot let that walk out with nothing in return...  Bring him back, he has earned it as part of the core.  
    Posted by ShepherdCall[/QUOTE]

    I'm sorry I just think this is way off base. Doc's bond with the Big 3 is solid, solid, solid. If he DID'NT come back then I would see a major shakeup of those 3 but Doc is going to go down with those guys.

    The way Rondo acted and played after the trade took the team out of the top 2 seeds and it showed his unprofessionalism that if what you say is true about what the Big 3 have passed on it wouldn't have happened. I think Doc and Ainge are sick of dealing with the enigma PG and his attitudes. They need and want a steady guy who's going to come in and be consistent.

    BBD is done and gone. The young guys haven't stepped up but continue to ride the coattails of the Big 3. A year ago everyone had Rondo, BBD and Perk as the cornerstones going into the transition but all want big money and haven't produced when the Big 3 couldn't. Rondo knows as he goes the team goes but he pulls a Randy Moss time and time again by "playing when he wants to play".

    Rondo is worth more than an expiring contract. If you notice you're not seeing a lot of those expiring contracts moving around the league. Teams want players and the summer of the "decision" taught alot of teams a lesson by not getting something instead of nothing.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Number6Fan. Show Number6Fan's posts

    Re: Trades and KG buyout

    Just for one, Baron Davis is a proven head case who has twice quit on teams when he wasn't happy.  He be poison as a Celtic.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheDUDDER. Show TheDUDDER's posts

    Re: Trades and KG buyout

    In Response to Re: Trades and KG buyout:
    [QUOTE]I'm sorry Dudder but no one is trading for RA or KG. These guys will retire Celtics. I strongly feel that Rondo would be the one dealt and to free up money KG would accept a buyout and return to the C's. The Big 3 may be older but they weren't the ones missing games due to injury. They produced this year even at an All Star level. Do you really beleive Doc is going to sign a 5 year deal only to ship 2 of the 3 out of town and begin a rebuilding process when they had the best record before the trade, should be playing a 7th game today. They weren't swept. Ainge saying "totally different" could mean trading their starting PG, Shaq retiring, JON gone, BBD gone. That is totally different.
    Posted by BiasLewis[/QUOTE]

    No team is looking to add a point guard that cannot shoot and is locked up for 3 more years and will consume about 15 to 20% of the new cap.

    Only expiring contracts (KG and Ray) are what other teams will be looking for.

    Exactly the opposite of what you are talking about.

    As Danny said, Doc is a coach and will coach the team in whatever form it takes, if it is rebuilding or just trying to make the playoffs, etc. he is a coach at heart.

    I think there is ZERO relationship between Doc signing for 5 years and some sort of imminent signing / trade / etc.

    There will be a lockout, a new CBA that will likely include a hard cap, and they have 4 players that take up 52 million of the 58 million dollar cap.

    Why is it so completely impossible to think that Doc signed for security purposes and that whatever the team is made up of, he will just coach them just like he did when they were the worst team in the league?

    Danny pulled off a once-in-a-career move compiling the BIG 3 but for some reason (and I will explain the reason after this sentence) Danny's crystal ball will ensure that this type of management is simply an ongoing thing given his omniscience, etc.

    The reason everyone thinks it will happen again is because they live their lives vicariously through their sports team and cannot bear to think that the beloved Cs will be the Cavs, Pistons, Suns, Jazz, etc.  Even though the Cs were the laughingstock of the league for 15 years, there is this mindset that the Cs have been the best team in the league or a perennial favorite to win a title for the last 60 years running.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from BiasLewis. Show BiasLewis's posts

    Re: Trades and KG buyout

    Dudder I respect your bball knowledge and you may be right about some of what you say. You have to think about this for a second and yes Doc will coach the team in whatever form it's in.

    Doc was presented a contract awhile ago and didn't sign it. We get bounced from the playoffs and then he's approached by Ainge again and jumps on board for 5 years. The contract terms may have never changed from the original offer.

    Doc was going to be a top candidate for the Lakers job and probably Miami if he wanted it. Why would he turn those jobs down to go through a rebuilding job with the Celtics? You believe he's that loyal??

    I just don't believe the C's have to go in full rebuild mode and dump KG and RA because of contracts are expiring. A few additions of quality players and the C's have a run left. RA has a player option, you think he's going to sign it if he knows the C's will ship him off to siberia?

    It's funny that the Lakers have what we need and we have what the Lakers need. Rondo and Bynum but they will never trade.

    You may not think highly of Rondo but teams that like to run probably would welcome Rondo with all his flaws. He's not a bad player but again sometimes you have to sacrifice one for the betterment of the whole.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from JamezHill24. Show JamezHill24's posts

    Re: Trades and KG buyout

    In Response to Re: Trades and KG buyout:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Trades and KG buyout : Yes I agree with you on Rondo having to improve his shot... if he becomes a 40% mid-range J guy and a 75% FT shooter he will have improved to a satisfactory level for me... and still not be a better clutch shooter than Davis We are trying to extend a window here that closed with the current group. I think we'd have won the title with the Rondo from '10, Big Baby from '09, DWest alll season long, and shaq in the playoffs putting up the 10-5 in 20 mins he gave us in the Fall. With that said, Davis replaces Nate/wafer... not West, and both become a dyamnite 1-2 bench punch in the backcourt, they are 6'3" and can both guard 2's, run the point and hit shots We have an entire year of Jeff Green, and he needs to paly 34-36 mins with Ray and Paul down in the high 20's and legit rested for the playoffs. Varajao is better than big Baby and can guard Bosh and Boozer and reduce JG's role so he in turn is more effective. We'd have to get an entire years worth of 1-186 mins, 4 points, 5 rebounds and 2 blocks from JON. And Kaman is a 13-16 point, 8-9 rebound 1-2 block Center who will stabilize that position. 90% of Perk's D with 200% of his offense. If we have all those things together we are a contender for sure.
    Posted by rameakap[/QUOTE]

    side note: Rondo shoots well over 40% on his midrange shot, you jsut wouldnt think it considering how much heat he takes over it. def needs to improve tho. 

    i like everything you said here, varejao fits our bench bc he brings energy as well, something bbd was loved here for. also love green playing 36-38, neeeeed to get ray and paul rest, similar to San Antonio.

    like it.

     
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  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Re: Trades and KG buyout

    In Response to Re: Trades and KG buyout:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Trades and KG buyout : side note: Rondo shoots well over 40% on his midrange shot, you jsut wouldnt think it considering how much heat he takes over it. def needs to improve tho.  i like everything you said here, varejao fits our bench bc he brings energy as well, something bbd was loved here for. also love green playing 36-38, neeeeed to get ray and paul rest, similar to San Antonio. like it.
    Posted by JamezHill24[/QUOTE]

    Thanks.

    It eliminates the cap space tho. but Howard really is a pipe dream.

    I did hear something about that decent RR %... but it just seems like he can't do it when or in the way we need it from him
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Sveltics. Show Sveltics's posts

    Re: Trades and KG buyout

    Its the fairwell tour with the big 3. Rest assured, there will be no trade of them.

    BBD is gone. His only return to B-town would be a 1 year contract offer at reduced pay. Good luck on the open market.

    Green will cost them and  they need to sign him, IMHO.

    Rondo is your only tradable piece. i would not discount this but find it highly unlikely.

    So, to summarize, get your tickets to the Big 3 Fairwell Tour. The warmup bands will be bad but the acid will be groovy!

    We may have only won 1 but WHAT a 1!!!!

    Thanks Big 3.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from bramrok. Show bramrok's posts

    Re: Trades and KG buyout

    we should take a chance on Oden
     

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