TRAYVON MARTIN, any thoughts? what does it all mean?

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    Re: TRAYVON MARTIN, any thoughts? what does it all mean?

    i wont repond to any name calling, if you want to have an intelligent  conversation, that;s another matter...lets get facts, first.

    .

     i can see him turning around to ask what's up and being hit and shot. this guy's racism made him so certain that ANY black man in his neighborhood esp at night was suspicious and worthy of checking out

    You see what you want to see.. that's a lot of assuming you are doing.any facts to support it other that your slanted  opinion.?? You know this guy, whats in his heart??? Did you know he is a tutor to many minority students...Now at night he is out to get them??? CNBS would like you to believe that...That REAl FACTS
    are that we don't know yet...what really happened...and We are jumping to conclusion based on race..sad...
    If im Latino, i have to vote a certain way, or I reject everything culturally.?? Is this still America ???..I can think for myself, thank you very much. ..not buying into that...some one is is doing the sterotyping here. ..its not me...sorry,,
    What you just said to me is no better than Dudder's rants...its disrespecfull at the very least...
    see one can disagree  without name calling.....
     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: TRAYVON MARTIN, any thoughts? what does it all mean? : ortiz, surely you aren't this moronic. hispanic is a culture, not a PIGMENT. got that? I'm black, what does that mean? I could be hispanic/latino, african-american ( i personally do not like that term to describe my identity), africo-american (my preferred term for 1st to third generational american blacks who identify more with their real recent AFRICAN ancestors and culture) or just afro or afro-american (my preferred term for all those who are pigmented black with a BLACK cultural identity anywhere). so yes, as a black i could be herman cain and clarence thomas and choose only to identify myself as a black euro and reject everything culturally black of mine. i could be a part of the tea party too. so yeah, zimmerman is still pigmentally WHITE but is culturally mixed by being a hispanic and euro! you got this? do you feeeel a little less ignorant? now go tea bagg someone!
    Posted by CAPITALIST_AVENGER[/QUOTE]

     Hey Avenger, I've got a couple of questions for you. Would you be insulted or instead refreshed to one day be called, and to refer to yourself as, an American without the sub-categorical attachment in front of it?  Perhaps you already do, I'm not wanting to be accidentally condescending here.  And hopefully the fact that I'm worried about being condescending isn't in itself condescending.

     Also, I'd like a little more depth on your description of Clarence Thomas as a "black euro".  Can you give me some characteristic examples of this type of person as opposed to the characteristic examples of an Afro-American who identifies with their recent African ancestors.  Keep in mind that Clarence Thomas could probably tell us a Gullah story or two.  You must be familiar with the Geechee/Gullah culture in the states that has a direct link with West African ethnic traditions, going back hundreds of years.  Clarence Thomas is a product of this culture, proudly.  Perhaps his understanding and connection to his African ancestors is more intimate than yours is?  

     Last, it seems like your giving preferred status to African American blacks whose ancestors were early 20th century immigrants or more recent.  Am I getting that right?  I'm interested to hear more about this as well.  

                       

     
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    Re: TRAYVON MARTIN, any thoughts? what does it all mean?

    George Zimmerman head wound gives little clarity to Trayvon Martin case

    A police video appears to show George Zimmerman with a head wound the night he shot Trayvon Martin. But that is not conclusive proof of Zimmerman's story, experts say.

    By Mark Trumbull, Staff writer / April 3, 2012

    Enhanced imagery of this video dated Feb. 26 from a police station in Sanford, Fla., appears to show that George Zimmerman (c.) had a head wound. The frame grab was taken the night the neighborhood watch volunteer shot dead an unarmed Trayvon Martin.

    Sanford Police Department/REUTERS

    He had a head wound..it may not prove his (Euro/hispanic) account 100%, but it does  disprove your theory of i can see him turning around to ask what's up and being hit and shot.

     
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    Re: TRAYVON MARTIN, any thoughts? what does it all mean?

    NBC Apologizes For Editing George Zimmerman’s 911 Call on Today Show

    NBC today apologized for an editing "error" in the dialogue in George Zimmerman's taped 911 call during a segment on the Today Show.

    The "error" referred to was a segment of Zimmerman's 911 call that made it seem as if he was voluntarily racial profiling Trayvon Martin. On Today, the conversation with the dispatcher ran as follows:

    Zimmerman: This guy looks like he's up to no good. He looks black.

    Many, including Eric Wemple over at the Washington Post, noticed that on the actual 911 tape, the dispatcher had prompted Zimmerman to identify Martin's race:

    Zimmerman: This guy looks like he's up to no good. Or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about.

    Dispatcher: OK, and this guy - is he black, white or Hispanic?

    Zimmerman: He looks black.

    "During our investigation it became evident that there was an error made in the production process that we deeply regret," reads NBC's statement. "We will be taking the necessary steps to prevent this from happening in the future and apologize to our viewers."

     
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    Re: TRAYVON MARTIN, any thoughts? what does it all mean?

    Authorities have said since the beginning that Zimmerman admitted shooting Martin, and numerous eyewitnesses have told ABC News they heard a gunshot, and ran out of their houses to find Zimmerman standing over Martin's body.

    "Still, in response to a question about what Zimmerman would say to the Martin family if he had the opportunity, Oliver replied 'that he's very, very sorry. That he's very, very sorry, because in many ways George has lost his life too.' "

    Zimmerman's version of events emerged in a story Monday by Rene Stutzman for the Orlando Sentinel.

    "With a single punch, Trayvon Martin decked the Neighborhood Watch volunteer who eventually shot and killed the unarmed 17-year-old, then Trayvon climbed on top of George Zimmerman and slammed his head into the sidewalk several times, leaving him bloody and battered, authorities have revealed to the Orlando Sentinel," Stutzman wrote.

    "That is the account Zimmerman gave police, and much of it has been corroborated by witnesses, authorities say.

    "Zimmerman has not spoken publicly about what happened, but that night, Feb. 26, and in later meetings he described and re-enacted for police what he says happened.

    "In his version of events, he had turned around and was walking back to his SUV when Trayvon approached him from behind, the two exchanged words then Trayvon punched him in the nose, sending him to the ground, and began beating him."

    This is Zimmermans account..im not saying its true, im saying this is the account he gave of what happened..Totally different than the spin being passed around by the Race baters...that all..If there were witnesses, thats why the cops let him go.after 3 hrs of interrogation....not because he is a Euro/HIspanic..whatever that means...

     
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    Re: TRAYVON MARTIN, any thoughts? what does it all mean?

    are 2 WHITE women ready to give testimony that they made eye contact with him and he was standing over trayvon, that he never wiped his face to indicate an injury, that it was trayvon calling for help and in terror and so on. they called 911 that nite and have been trying to reach investigators to no avail. its like the cops have no interest in the facts,

    Care to post the link to your version

    But really this is what actually happened...are you making this stuff up????

    Sanford police on Thursday also challenged a WFTV-Channel 9 report, in which Mary Cutcher said police largely ignored her even though she told them, "I know this was not self-defense. There was no punching, no hitting going on at the time, no wrestling."

    Police said they twice tried to interview her without success, and the third time, she wrote a very short sworn statement for her roommate that was consistent with Zimmerman's account.

     
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    Re: TRAYVON MARTIN, any thoughts? what does it all mean?

    In Response to Re: TRAYVON MARTIN, any thoughts? what does it all mean?:
    [QUOTE]are 2 WHITE women ready to give testimony that they made eye contact with him and he was standing over trayvon, that he never wiped his face to indicate an injury, that it was trayvon calling for help and in terror and so on. they called 911 that nite and have been trying to reach investigators to no avail. its like the cops have no interest in the facts, Care to post the link to your version But really this is what actually happened...are you making this stuff up???? Sanford police on Thursday also challenged a WFTV-Channel 9 report, in which Mary Cutcher said police largely ignored her even though she told them, "I know this was not self-defense. There was no punching, no hitting going on at the time, no wrestling." Police said they twice tried to interview her without success, and the third time, she wrote a very short sworn statement for her roommate that was consistent with Zimmerman's account.
    Posted by Ortiz123[/QUOTE]both roommates were on the young turks on current tv.. yep, you have to search long to find it on your basic cable package but it was a great interview! cenk uger rocks as does ana! check it out on their youtube channel. they have covered this case more than anyone else from every angle!

    also, msnbc is the same as fox news.. both are extremes in presenting their ideological biases rather than a news source like global post who are more likely to just give you the FACTS and allow the intelligent person to form their own biased interpretations and perspectives. fox routinely does the same doctoring crapp from a right wing view. they routinely tAKe stuff obama says and splice it up to fit their biased narrative!

    about your point about him teaching minorities.. that is like sayin i have many gay friends so i cant be homophobic or i know black people so i cant be racist. people are complxed. this is about a black man in his neighborhood, his home environment. a black man that is not being controlled in his proximity. going to teaach them puts him automatically in a position of authority over them and its clear y all parties are coming together. dealing with a black as a subordinate or peer is a lot different for many. thats where racialism comes in. racism is perhaps too strong. but yeah RACIALISM is appropriate. once more, no way is he chasing down a white kid with a hoodie under similar circumstances. i'm not buying that ALL burglaries in the area have been by blacks. makes no sense and defies stats all over the nation that people of the same pigment tend to attack and prey on others of the same pigment.. period!

    enough evidence here for an ARREST and for mr. zimmerman to have his day in court. i thought oj was guilty as all helll in the first trial but at least he got arrested and got his day in court. thats the part i and others are most ticked off at. you dont get that? lets get in court and hear all sides and present all the evidence. certainly isnt a slam dunk zimmerman did nothing wrong. who's to say zim did not trip after confronting trayvon or that he was shoved down and hit his head when he fell or tripped while pushing down trayvon? who really knows how he got the bump on his head? there has been ZERO clear evidence to judge from either side on that issue. thats y we have juries and courts. where is the grand jury?

    funny how you deliberately ignore the fact that the one person on the ground with all the FACTS and not working from bias opinions as we are from a distance and geberalities, THE initial on-the-scene COP, recommended a full prosecution and did not buy zim's account. btw, he just happened to be a white cop! i'm really about justice not the racial thing but unfortunately the racial thing is y there is clearly no justice. if zim was black regardless of the race of his victim, his butttt would be in jail by now (rightfully so)!




     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: TRAYVON MARTIN, any thoughts? what does it all mean? :  Hey Avenger, I've got a couple of questions for you. Would you be insulted or instead refreshed to one day be called, and to refer to yourself as, an American without the sub-categorical attachment in front of it?  Perhaps you already do, I'm not wanting to be accidentally condescending here.  And hopefully the fact that I'm worried about being condescending isn't in itself condescending.  Also, I'd like a little more depth on your description of Clarence Thomas as a "black euro".  Can you give me some characteristic examples of this type of person as opposed to the characteristic examples of an Afro-American who identifies with their recent African ancestors.  Keep in mind that Clarence Thomas could probably tell us a Gullah story or two.  You must be familiar with the Geechee/Gullah culture in the states that has a direct link with West African ethnic traditions, going back hundreds of years.  Clarence Thomas is a product of this culture, proudly.  Perhaps his understanding and connection to his African ancestors is more intimate than yours is?    Last, it seems like your giving preferred status to African American blacks whose ancestors were early 20th century immigrants or more recent.  Am I getting that right?  I'm interested to hear more about this as well.                      
    Posted by passfirst[/QUOTE]"american" is perfectly fine. my maternal grandmother is a gullah (i was born in africa as was she). where i was from, called kissi not geechee, but same meaning. clarence thomas is a black euro COLLECTIVELY OR SOCIOLOGICALLY. his socialed identity! yep yep as a soloist or pure individualist he may have cultural black remnants. so what? herman cain is clearly more collectively blak for he at least lives in a socio-private black afro world. his wife and church and so forth promote that culture. he's a public opportunist black euro. the ultimate half and halfer. clarence thomas is both a socio-private and socio-public black euro. kind f hard for him to change or disguise pigment as micheal jackson tried to do. euro is a culture as is afro. more about one's EXECUTIONAL collective role than personal identity. i'm sure somewhere in his soul thomas sees himself partially as the ancestral afro he is and was initially raised as.

    but clearly he no longer is socially reinforced in it in any relevant part of his life. his wife? ha! she's from the most ultra-conservative traditional elitist families from VA. his career is bending over to any and every tea bagging ultra-conservative right wing position along with scalia. it is what it is, i call as i see it. its his right. he clearly made a startegic social decision years ago that has worked out optimally for him. he operationally condemned everything afro from his past by accepting positions that clearly alienates the great majority of said culture (there may be .03% of afros who disagree, so what?) and sold out in order to get to his prominence. it has worked out, i'm sure he has learned to sleep well every night and live with himself.

    do i look down at those who are traditionally african american? absolutely not. had it not been for them and the martin luther kings of the world i would not have the opportunities i have enjoyed in this great nation. how can i not respect the great uncomparable pains and degradations they have endured and done their best to overcome? i must just keep it real. i do not have a slave-based mindset. thats the ultimate litmus test i guess. i have an intellectual grasp of it but i had no clue of american slavery til i was a teenager. i saw blacks in the role of whites here all around me and my family were the ones in power. i empathize with my slave-based blacks very much. if i were raised by those with memories of family members (great grandparents) who were slaves, jim crowed and oppressed, i would have the same attitudes many here have. the longer i stay here, the more i get it. i have been profiled, pulled over for no reason and so forth. it doesnt matter what my identity is when a cop or zim sees me. all he sees is BLACK and thus every negative that goes with that. it is a multi-generational cause-issue. it will take multi-generations to solve.

    btw, i heard zim's father on fox say that obama is at fault for all the hatred in the country. tells me a lot about how zim got that mindset and how he could be so interpretively defective as to instinctively view a blak in his neighborhood as a suspect. i live in a mostly white neighborhood and i am not suspicious when i see a black and would not have been suspicious of trayvon. thats not how i process things. racialistic in racialistic out, supremacist in supremacist out, racist in racist out. from now on, i'm rolling with white-people time. thats the lag it takes prosecutors to choose to arrest a zim for  a crime against a trayvon!
     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: TRAYVON MARTIN, any thoughts? what does it all mean? : "american" is perfectly fine. my maternal grandmother is a gullah (i was born in africa as was she). where i was from, called kissi not geechee, but same meaning. clarence thomas is a black euro COLLECTIVELY OR SOCIOLOGICALLY. his socialed identity! yep yep as a soloist or pure individualist he may have cultural black remnants. so what? herman cain is clearly more collectively blak for he at least lives in a socio-private black afro world. his wife and church and so forth promote that culture. he's a public opportunist black euro. the ultimate half and halfer. clarence thomas is both a socio-private and socio-public black euro. kind f hard for him to change or disguise pigment as micheal jackson tried to do. euro is a culture as is afro. more about one's EXECUTIONAL collective role than personal identity. i'm sure somewhere in his soul thomas sees himself partially as the ancestral afro he is and was initially raised as. but clearly he no longer is socially reinforced in it in any relevant part of his life. his wife? ha! she's from the most ultra-conservative traditional elitist families from VA. his career is bending over to any and every tea bagging ultra-conservative right wing position along with scalia. it is what it is, i call as i see it. its his right. he clearly made a startegic social decision years ago that has worked out optimally for him. he operationally condemned everything afro from his past by accepting positions that clearly alienates the great majority of said culture (there may be .03% of afros who disagree, so what?) and sold out in order to get to his prominence. it has worked out, i'm sure he has learned to sleep well every night and live with himself. do i look down at those who are traditionally african american? absolutely not. had it not been for them and the martin luther kings of the world i would not have the opportunities i have enjoyed in this great nation. how can i not respect the great uncomparable pains and degradations they have endured and done their best to overcome? i must just keep it real. i do not have a slave-based mindset. thats the ultimate litmus test i guess. i have an intellectual grasp of it but i had no clue of american slavery til i was a teenager. i saw blacks in the role of whites here all around me and my family were the ones in power. i empathize with my slave-based blacks very much. if i were raised by those with memories of family members (great grandparents) who were slaves, jim crowed and oppressed, i would have the same attitudes many here have. the longer i stay here, the more i get it. i have been profiled, pulled over for no reason and so forth. it doesnt matter what my identity is when a cop or zim sees me. all he sees is BLACK and thus every negative that goes with that. it is a multi-generational cause-issue. it will take multi-generations to solve. btw, i heard zim's father on fox say that obama is at fault for all the hatred in the country. tells me a lot about how zim got that mindset and how he could be so interpretively defective as to instinctively view a blak in his neighborhood as a suspect. i live in a mostly white neighborhood and i am not suspicious when i see a black and would not have been suspicious of trayvon. thats not how i process things. racialistic in racialistic out, supremacist in supremacist out, racist in racist out. from now on, i'm rolling with white-people time. thats the lag it takes prosecutors to choose to arrest a zim for  a crime against a trayvon!
    Posted by CAPITALIST_AVENGER[/QUOTE]

     I'd also add to this list beyond the many more African American names that belong on it, names like John Locke and Ben Franklin, and documents such as the Declaration of Independence and The Constitution for setting a standard that was above the reality of the time.  A standard that coincided with the message of the civil rights movement and individual liberty all the way around regardless of this, that, and the other.  This is also the legacy of a Euro created, developed, and bequeathed civilization that's still in a state of becoming, and becoming less ethnically Euro descendent dominated as a result.  No other civilization has produced a society and a moment of as much opportunity and wealth for as many different people as now.  

      I don't know what your parameters of being able to live with yourself while succeeding in this system (better than any other, ever) are.  But you're clearly equating being a black conservative with being a sell out, yet, perhaps at times a mind set such as this is itself selling out.  Perhaps it's more controlling at times to be willingly manipulated by supposed spokes people who are more interested in developing their "brand" than keeping it real (not necessarily you personally, just making a point.  You're up for discussion on this and I appreciate it).  I don't think Al Sharpton is a better attribute or example for African Americans or Americans in general than say Thomas Sowell or Clarence Thomas is.  And he's not more or less black because he goes to a black church and profits by posturing himself as a representative for a the very community his livelihood depends upon because it's suffering.  He throws red meat to the audience, he insights in a borderline reckless fashion, but he never challenges it.  I'm not saying the complaints have no merit, but the problems and the solutions are not one sided.  Just like the assertion that conservative blacks are sell outs, that's bull crap.     

                  

     
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    Re: TRAYVON MARTIN, any thoughts? what does it all mean?


     Avenger, by the way.  On the Gullah, amazing culture.  I've only experienced it over here and from the outside, but the spirit is a conquering one.  Also worked on a shrimp boat for a summer around some geechee.  I could never understand what they were saying but they didn't seem to mind, lol.
     
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    In Response to Re: TRAYVON MARTIN, any thoughts? what does it all mean?:
    [QUOTE] Avenger, by the way.  On the Gullah, amazing culture.  I've only experienced it over here and from the outside, but the spirit is a conquering one.  Also worked on a shrimp boat for a summer around some geechee.  I could never understand what they were saying but they didn't seem to mind, lol.
    Posted by passfirst[/QUOTE]just asking to grasp better the perspective you speak from or had to overcome, are you african-american? i believe you had written so a while back. i couldnt agree more with your assessment about having a BROADER appreciation for all the heroes of this great nation. folks like locke and others of the enligtennment and romantic eras made this country. i would include rousseau as well. funny how many GOP types hate the french today but it was the french that made this country from the statue of liberty to fighting in and winning the first few wars incl the american revolution. it was after all french generals with experience in the kind of trench warfare that won the war who were sent over as "advisers"... you know how the US just "advises" the pakistanis and afghans and only "advised" the present iraqi leadership as they got their country back from the saddamists.

    anywho, i do have a broad view. but unfortunately in this country and world at this time, its about RACE and i have to live in the world whether i like it or not. i always think globally but have to execute locally.. in this case within the often limiting parochial confines of race. talk america in general, must bring in locke, jefferson and others. the euros did a great job showing humanity what could be the best in all of us even while being a bit hypocritical with the whole slavery thing and people as just another asset or commodity to possess thing. heard oprah's beau on piers morgan last night. he has a new book about how people esp blacks can embrace the whole capitalism thing and use it to maximize their empowerment. he grasped though that a big reason traditional african americans have a tough time with it is due to the slavery thing.

    its tough to embrace a system that made you chattel and reduced you to less than a human. blacks without that experience or who have access to different ideas do not have such an issue. unfortunately, we are in the MINORITY within the overall black community at this time. its a generational issue, will take generations!
     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: TRAYVON MARTIN, any thoughts? what does it all mean? : just asking to grasp better the perspective you speak from or had to overcome, are you african-american? i believe you had written so a while back. i couldnt agree more with your assessment about having a BROADER appreciation for all the heroes of this great nation. folks like locke and others of the enligtennment and romantic eras made this country. i would include rousseau as well. funny how many GOP types hate the french today but it was the french that made this country from the statue of liberty to fighting in and winning the first few wars incl the american revolution. it was after all french generals with experience in the kind of trench warfare that won the war who were sent over as "advisers"... you know how the US just "advises" the pakistanis and afghans and only "advised" the present iraqi leadership as they got their country back from the saddamists. anywho, i do have a broad view. but unfortunately in this country and world at this time, its about RACE and i have to live in the world whether i like it or not. i always think globally but have to execute locally.. in this case within the often limiting parochial confines of race. talk america in general, must bring in locke, jefferson and others. the euros did a great job showing humanity what could be the best in all of us even while being a bit hypocritical with the whole slavery thing and people as just another asset or commodity to possess thing. heard oprah's beau on piers morgan last night. he has a new book about how people esp blacks can embrace the whole capitalism thing and use it to maximize their empowerment. he grasped though that a big reason traditional african americans have a tough time with it is due to the slavery thing. its tough to embrace a system that made you chattel and reduced you to less than a human. blacks without that experience or who have access to different ideas do not have such an issue. unfortunately, we are in the MINORITY within the overall black community at this time. its a generational issue, will take generations!
    Posted by CAPITALIST_AVENGER[/QUOTE]


     No, I'm not African-American, and I hope I didn't wrongly portray myself as one who has that kind of insight and experience.  I should have used the word "interacted" instead of "experienced".  I thought "from the outside" expressed that, my mistake.

     While certainly not wanting to gloss over the hypocrisy of slavery, and, from my perspective, I get defensive against assertions that the dishonorable past framework aspects of society are permeating below the surface of what's motivating many of the people today.  As a registered independent, I get tired of the narrative that the motivation of conservatives is race based, sex based, that they want old people to die in the waiting room, and so on...  This is the outcome of a populous who has gotten caught up in the noise. So when Clarence Thomas is referred to as a black euro, and therefore by extension a sell-out, it's offensive.  Whether you mean it to or not, it supports Michael Dyson's claims that Clarence Thomas isn't a black man but a man whose black skin has been inhabited by white supremacist thought.  As a white man, this claim is extremely offensive and completely unfair.  For blacks, I think it's an attempt to narrow their scope of thought about economy and law and government... Being a conservative is not selling out yet looking at half of your own country as though it represents and is motivated by continuing the atrocities of the past, just might be. (Not you, I'm not talking at you here, just saying). 

      I like that you brought the French thinkers into the discussion, i'm a big fan of Camus and Artod.  I think the existentialists won the 20th century and that we're a little muddled in a deconstructionist rut right now.  Don't know what's coming next?  In ten years or so I think the world will look a lot different than it does now and that sort of thing usually triggers the writers and thinkers into new realms.  

      you've made a number of good and necessary points, and I appreciate the insight.  It will smooth out a lot more as the generations progress, but that doesn't mean the mindset should be complacent, or ignoring of current obstacles and realities.  I'm with you on this.   Also, now that you have mentioned it, I have noticed that first and second generation Africans who come to the U.S. or were the first born here seem not to be burdened or held back in ways that some African Americans who have been in this system for many generations are.  This speaks to many things...    

     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: TRAYVON MARTIN, any thoughts? what does it all mean? :  No, I'm not African-American, and I hope I didn't wrongly portray myself as one who has that kind of insight and experience.  I should have used the word "interacted" instead of "experienced".  I thought "from the outside" expressed that, my mistake.  While certainly not wanting to gloss over the to many things...    
    Posted by passfirst[/QUOTE]
    we agree on the basic points but have a major disagreement as i do with most of my white EURO friends. you seem to underplay the impact of generational degradation caused by BIG GOVERNMENT going the other way. slavery (AND later on with american apartheid and jim crow laws) make no doubt about it was a government welfare program for white people esp rich white ones. u get free labor, u dont have to compete against an entire class of people, u get to feel good about yourself by legally superior to another who had ZERO legal rights any white person had to ever respect for over 12 GENERATIONS! what would you expect? u view all this as the exception, i think its the norm. you downplay  the history of it all, i think its an entrenched cause of the effects. til your kind can acknowledge this, it cant be moved away from. its not just SOME ISOLATED INDIVIDUAL ISSUE, ITS a remnant of a still-obvious collective-institutional supremacist mindset and reality-interpretation. its a MEME! BY BEING a white guy with a name like zimmerman, living in a closed community like that, zim was prone to be infected with the mindset that instinctively saw trayvon as he did regardless of actual behavior. its part of his institutional COLLECTIVE-CULTURAL DNA!

    and yes, i hate to mess with your sentiments, but i stand with most blacks in my assessment of clarence thomas. i respect his success and do consider his success a black success and i am proud as a black pigmented person that he is there.. but come on, he's not culturally black or an afro. is what it is. he did sell out and trade up. i believe black folks are in a better position to grasp this than you my friend. our reality is our reality. we get to set the standards and rules not you.

    IN time, the new generationals will impact the natives as their numbers rise and they take over as power elites. barack obama per example is a neo-generational and clearly was not burdened by a salavery ideology. no one close to him interpreted life from that view. at best, its just an intellecual or empathetic exercise not an emotional or experiential one. he's NEVER fundamentally interpreted life from that view. btw, nikki healey the governor of SC is in the same boat as a clarence3 thomas. yeah right she's a cultural indian. U KIDDING ME?  sure her parents once were and its part of her individual DNA, but she's a WHITE indic EURO. its npt to diminish or insult her, its just a fact. that's her precedetal executional-collective IDENTITY and role in society! you know kind of like how mitt romney is not a cultural mexican or latino but it is part of his dna and immediate ancestry!   clarence thomas wants to bring the euro message to the hood and to other blacks. hey i sold out to what is "american" and made it, y can't you people? you think he ever busts out his afroness around his wife and white folks? no.. he just deludes himself as if he was actually born and raised there.

    do whites seriously not have divisions within their own racial and superethnic group? of course. i've dated out of my pigment group a few times and have noticed that anglo-saxons and their northern euro brethren per example view southern or mediterranean euros very differently (almost like negros) within the white race. whites maintain as much of their ethnic identity and heritage PRIVATELY but expect blacks and afros to terminate theirs and just be "american" (meaning a compatible "white euro" in the anglo tradition). when a greek marries a northerner, its like 2 aliens. one is catholic, the other is likely protestant, they bring all that to the table and have to openly make concessions and negotiations. with a black like thomas, its like there's nothing of value he has to even bring to the table to be respected. when "american" means a real fusion of the non-white and black elements as well as the traditional white ones, i'll listen. i want the same fcollective-cultural usion that has occurred as the greeks, italians and jews have assimilated into the macro culture.
     
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    Re: TRAYVON MARTIN, any thoughts? what does it all mean?

    Every race has in general despicable and admirable qualities about themselves.  But all over the world a significant % of people donot act like the various negative stereotypes while others do.  It is a disservice to categorize the good in with the bad. If you aspire to be a child of God or even a moral and intelligent human being, others must be treated like individuals.  In the Christian Bible: the tax collector, prostitute, soldier, lepers and mixed blood partial Jews are not branded as automatically condemned people but are given the opportunity to move forward in a better direction, just like all others are.  Around the world, different religions as well as reasonably thinking non-religious hold a similar view.
     
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    Re: TRAYVON MARTIN, any thoughts? what does it all mean?

    In Response to Re: TRAYVON MARTIN, any thoughts? what does it all mean?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: TRAYVON MARTIN, any thoughts? what does it all mean? :  I'd also add to this list beyond the many more African American names that belong on it, names like John Locke and Ben Franklin, and documents such as the Declaration of Independence and The Constitution for setting a standard that was above the reality of the time.  A standard that coincided with the message of the civil rights movement and individual liberty all the way around regardless of this, that, and the other.  This is also the legacy of a Euro created, developed, and bequeathed civilization that's still in a state of becoming, and becoming less ethnically Euro descendent dominated as a result.  No other civilization has produced a society and a moment of as much opportunity and wealth for as many different people as now.     I don't know what your parameters of being able to live with yourself while succeeding in this system (better than any other, ever) are.  But you're clearly equating being a black conservative with being a sell out, yet, perhaps at times a mind set such as this is itself selling out.  Perhaps it's more controlling at times to be willingly manipulated by supposed spokes people who are more interested in developing their "brand" than keeping it real (not necessarily you personally, just making a point.  You're up for discussion on this and I appreciate it).  I don't think Al Sharpton is a better attribute or example for African Americans or Americans in general than say Thomas Sowell or Clarence Thomas is.  And he's not more or less black because he goes to a black church and profits by posturing himself as a representative for a the very community his livelihood depends upon because it's suffering.  He throws red meat to the audience, he insights in a borderline reckless fashion, but he never challenges it.  I'm not saying the complaints have no merit, but the problems and the solutions are not one sided.  Just like the assertion that conservative blacks are sell outs, that's bull crap.                    
    Posted by passfirst[/QUOTE]

    Amen Brother... But they did sell out(rose) from a life of dependency , and victimization...true success..
     
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    Re: TRAYVON MARTIN, any thoughts? what does it all mean?

    the latest info and stats: for all of you claiming race really doesnt matter anymore:

    http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/americas/united-states/120406/poll-trayvon-martin-case-opinions-by-race

    http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/americas/united-states/120406/shaken-baby-syndrome-defense-zimmerman like how as the facts change, so do his logic and whines.. who's going to buy this?
     

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