What are your top 5 'What ifs?' in Celtic history?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    What are your top 5 'What ifs?' in Celtic history?

    Since Tony Parker over Joe Forte was brought up, let's hear your (realistic) top 5 'What ifs' in Celtics history. Mine:

    1. What if Len Bias never dies? (this should be everyone's #1)

    2. What if we landed Duncan, like the odds said we should have in '97?

    3. What if Red Auerbach drafted Tim Hardaway over Michael Smith like his staff claimed they were going to in '89?

    4. What if the C's hired Larry Brown (who thought he had the job) over Rick Pitino for Coach/President in 1997?

    5. What if the C's shut McHale down in '87 as soon as he broke his foot and he got the best case surgery and physical therapy he could at the time?

     
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    Re: What are your top 5 'What ifs?' in Celtic history?

    What if the Celtics had drafted Kobe?

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Re: What are your top 5 'What ifs?' in Celtic history?

    In response to chris33's comment:

    What if the Celtics had drafted Kobe?




    Boom!

    That is an awesome one I wasn't thinking of. Even though such a terrible human being wouldn't be typical celtic pride material, the HOF talent would be incredible.

    Antoine was a 17.5/9/3.2 with a 15.5 PEr as a rookie. Kobe was worse, a 7.6/2/1 as a rookie with a 14.4 PER. So 'Toine was much better. Doesn't really matter I guess. c's would have been worse either way.

    But the butterfly effect? Could it have landed us Duncan? Larry Brown over Pitino?

    '97 draft - No Duncan = Billups and ? TMac? too much like Kobe? Danny Fortson, Tony Battie.

    '98 draft - Dirk? Pierce? Raef?

    They wouldn't be playoff good until at least the '98-'99 season, but if they had Duncan they could be title contender good by then.

    Very interesting 

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Iceman4. Show Iceman4's posts

    Re: What are your top 5 'What ifs?' in Celtic history?

    what if the Celtics hadn't gotten Ray Allen and KG ?

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: What are your top 5 'What ifs?' in Celtic history?

    In response to Iceman4's comment:

    what if the Celtics hadn't gotten Ray Allen and KG ?




    Then we woudn't have gotten to hang the 17th banner. (Or was that your point?).

     

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Iceman4. Show Iceman4's posts

    Re: What are your top 5 'What ifs?' in Celtic history?

    In response to LloydDobler's comment:

    In response to Iceman4's comment:

     

    what if the Celtics hadn't gotten Ray Allen and KG ?

     




    Then we woudn't have gotten to hang the 17th banner. (Or was that your point?).

     

     



    that was my point.......what would the team look like right now?

    I'm glad they did.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from BostonTrollSpanker. Show BostonTrollSpanker's posts

    Re: What are your top 5 'What ifs?' in Celtic history?

    Rame that's an impressive list. 

    Not drafting Kobe is an interesting one to consider. 

    So is the trading of Billups and/or Joe Johnson. 

    Reggie Lewis should probably be on your list. 

    I'd take Pitino off, at least in terms of Larry Brown, Brown never sticks around long anyhow so that's not a big one in my mind. Brown is better if you're right up against a championship. However: what if the Celts had turned the franchise over to Larry Bird instead of Pitino is very interesting, I might put that number three. Bird clearly knew a thing or two about building franchises, Pitino put us in a ten year tailspin.

    What if the Celts hadn't traded Perkins makes my top five, probably at the number five spot. I think it cost us a ring but likely not more than one ring (unlike the tragic loss of Bias which altered the course of the franchise)

     

       
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Duke4. Show Duke4's posts

    Re: What are your top 5 'What ifs?' in Celtic history?


    THE DUKE

     

    1-What would've happened if Bill Russell hadn't gotten hurt in the '58 Finals?

    2-What would've happened if Larry Bird and Cedric Maxwell had been healthy in the '85 Finals?

    3-What would've happened if the injuries hadn't crippled the team in the '87 Finals?

    4-What would've happened if Len Bias had lived ....or Reggie Lewis for that matter?

    5-What would've happened if we had gotten Duncan in the '97 draft?

    My guess is we have at least three more championships....and probably more than that....after all, "Celtic Mystique" is all about the championships....always has been!

     
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    Re: What are your top 5 'What ifs?' in Celtic history?

    They could've drafted Steve Nash the year they drafted Antoine.  PG would have been solved for almost 2 decades!  What if they drafted Nash?


    For that matter, what if they drafted T. McGrady a year later instead of Ron Mercer and kept Billups and played him at the 2 with Nash at PG? 

     
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    Re: What are your top 5 'What ifs?' in Celtic history?


    1. What if that tool Chris Wallace had just ponied up the money and Signed Rodney Rogers?

    2. What if that tool had just kept Kenny Anderson instead of trading him for Vin Baker?

    3. What if Reggie Lewis and Len Bias had lived?

    4. What if KG was healthy in 2009?

    5. What if Perk didn't get hurt in 2010?

    I didn't go with TD because Pitino would have screwed it up and he'd have left as a FA anyways.

    Honorable mention what if Larry never had the back problems could we have won a few more?

     
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    Re: What are your top 5 'What ifs?' in Celtic history?


    THE DUKE

     

    Great points guys...!

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from SeemsToMe. Show SeemsToMe's posts

    Re: What are your top 5 'What ifs?' in Celtic history?


    Heres my pick for number one Celts "what if".

    If below trade doesn't happen---Guess what!

     

    "(Auerbach) called his old boss Ben Kerner, who by then owned the team in St. Louis. He offered (Ed) Macauley and a swap of first round draft picks - Kerner's number two slot for Red's number seven slot. According to Red, Kerner said, "Deal"."

    But then Auerbach somehow managed to persuade Kerner to substitute the 7th pick with Hagan (who, by the way, was only a 3rd round selection in 1953 with murky future). There's also no way Hagan could develop well in the Celtics with Cousy, Sharman, Ramsey and then the Jones boys in the backcourt. Celtics needed a second big - and saved the pick for Heinsohn.

    But that's not the end of the story. The Roayls had the 1st pick in 56. The Celtics had to lure them away from selecting Bill. There are many tales about why the Royals passed on Russell - a signing bonus that was to big for Rochester; Russell's threat to sign with the Globetrotters as he didn't want to play in a small market like Rochester; Russell's participance in the Olympics that left him out of the NBA until late December; and even some racial controversies with Russell. But this one story is my favorite:

    Trading the Ice Capades for Bill Russell | The Wages of Wins Journal

    The Celtics entered the 1956 draft with the 7th pick. This pick was sent to the St. Louis Hawks – along with Ed Macauley and Cliff Hagan, for the 2nd pick. It was believed that the Rochester Royals – who had the first pick – might want to take Russell. Auerbach, though, had a secret weapon. The owner of the Celtics, Walter Brown, was also the president of the Ice Capades. Brown called up the owner of the Royals– Lee Harrison — with the following offer: Brown would send the Ice Capades to Rochester for one week if the Royals would pass on Russell. Harrison agreed and with the first overall choice in the 1956 draft the Royals selected Si Green, a guard from Duquesne.

    So Bill Russell was traded for two hall-of-famers and one ice show."

    Seems

     
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    Re: What are your top 5 'What ifs?' in Celtic history?


    And heres my number two "Celtic what if"

    Red doesn,t make this trade.

     "Robert Parish + #3 pick (Kevin McHale) for the #1 pick (Joe Barry Carroll) and the #13 pick (Rickey Brown)

    Number one pick Carroll actually had a fairly decent 10 year pro career, but because of who he was traded for, he was at one point nicknamed "Joe Barely Cares." Parish and McHale are in the Hall of Fame and Red once again proved who was best"

    Seems

     
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    Re: What are your top 5 'What ifs?' in Celtic history?

    I don't believe if Bias had lived that he'd have made a huge impact for Boston. It would have all depended on just how bad his drug use was. 

    A better one would be what if Bias was a clean athlete? 

    1987 is an interesting one for one reason. The team was wrecked by injury. But it did show just how incredible a player Larry Bird was. Leading a team that was broken down to have a shot at the championship.

    In some ways it is as much an accomplishment as the win in 1986. Sad for the Boston fans. But a massive achievement with all things being considered. Held off the Pistons for one year. Bird really should have been the MVP that season. IMO it would have been much more deserved than the one he had in 1985.

    Another what if? What if Boston had landed the number one pick in 2008? And in retrospect that one is a nightmare scenario. The opposite of 1997.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from susan250. Show susan250's posts

    Re: What are your top 5 'What ifs?' in Celtic history?

    In response to rameakap's comment:

     

    Since Tony Parker over Joe Forte was brought up, let's hear your (realistic) top 5 'What ifs' in Celtics history. Mine:

    1. What if Len Bias never dies? (this should be everyone's #1)

    2. What if we landed Duncan, like the odds said we should have in '97?

    3. What if Red Auerbach drafted Tim Hardaway over Michael Smith like his staff claimed they were going to in '89?

    4. What if the C's hired Larry Brown (who thought he had the job) over Rick Pitino for Coach/President in 1997?

    5. What if the C's shut McHale down in '87 as soon as he broke his foot and he got the best case surgery and physical therapy he could at the time?

     


    The death of Reggie Lewis also influenced the Celtics future.  I do believe that if Bias had lived the Celtics had a good chance of winning at least a couple of more championships. 

    Definitely a good point about Pitino.  He didn't help the Celtics very much and Brown or maybe someone else would have been better than Pitino.

     

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Duke4. Show Duke4's posts

    Re: What are your top 5 'What ifs?' in Celtic history?


    THE DUKE

    Seems.....I'm a Rochester native.....lived there for almost 60 years.....and that's the story folks around town still tell to this day....Red, Russ, Rochester, and the Ice Capades...

    Red was the best.....dealing for Russell.....drafting Bird while knowing that he would probably return to college....making the deal that brought in Parish and McHale.....Robey for DJ....Henderson for the pick that became the Bias tragedy....sure he missed on a few as they all do...but the deals I just mentioned led to 16 championships in a 30 year period (1957-86)....but for injuries to Russ and Bird (and the team in '87) there would probably be several more banners hanging in the rafters...and then there is the Bias factor....that kid dominated in college...a bigger and stronger version of MJ...or so most folks thought....and Red even psyched Philly into trading the #1 pick to Cleveland...!

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from SeemsToMe. Show SeemsToMe's posts

    Re: What are your top 5 'What ifs?' in Celtic history?


    Duke

    You can't change the past and predict with 100% certainty the future but I think thats its fair to assume that the Celts would not have been nearly as successfull without Russ,McHale and Parish.

    I recall with fond memories two Rochester Hall Of Famers of those early years. Arnie Risen and Bobby Wanzer were amongst the best in the 50's.

    Seems

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from SeemsToMe. Show SeemsToMe's posts

    Re: What are your top 5 'What ifs?' in Celtic history?

    Duke

    OOPS- - Just remembered.  Hall Of Famer Bob Davies played along side Wanzer to make it a Hall Of Fame backcourt.

    Seems

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from SoxCsBruins. Show SoxCsBruins's posts

    Re: What are your top 5 'What ifs?' in Celtic history?

    In response to Iceman4's comment:

    In response to LloydDobler's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to Iceman4's comment:

     

    what if the Celtics hadn't gotten Ray Allen and KG ?

     




    Then we woudn't have gotten to hang the 17th banner. (Or was that your point?).

     

     

     



     

    that was my point.......what would the team look like right now?

    I'm glad they did.

    [/QUOTE]

    I'm glad they did too, but what if the Celtics had gotten the 2nd draft pick that year? We'd be looking at a big 4 of rondo-pierce-durant-jefferson

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from breaktime. Show breaktime's posts

    Re: What are your top 5 'What ifs?' in Celtic history?

    What if Bird handn't broke his finger playing baseball.

    What if Bird hadn't injured his back by shoveling stone for a driveway at his moms house.

    Bias ODing.

    Reggie Lewis undiagnosed heart condtion

    Pitino not coming to Boston

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from susan250. Show susan250's posts

    Re: What are your top 5 'What ifs?' in Celtic history?

    In response to SoxCsBruins's comment:

    In response to Iceman4's comment:

     

    In response to LloydDobler's comment:

     

     

    In response to Iceman4's comment:

     

    what if the Celtics hadn't gotten Ray Allen and KG ?

     




    Then we woudn't have gotten to hang the 17th banner. (Or was that your point?).

     

     

     

     



     

     

    that was my point.......what would the team look like right now?

    I'm glad they did.



    I'm glad they did too, but what if the Celtics had gotten the 2nd draft pick that year? We'd be looking at a big 4 of rondo-pierce-durant-jefferson

     



    You are right.  Although, I am not sure that we would have won a championship already. 

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from spewey. Show spewey's posts

    Re: What are your top 5 'What ifs?' in Celtic history?

    In response to TheOriginalDfury13's comment:


    1. What if that tool Chris Wallace had just ponied up the money and Signed Rodney Rogers?

    2. What if that tool had just kept Kenny Anderson instead of trading him for Vin Baker?

    3. What if Reggie Lewis and Len Bias had lived?

    4. What if KG was healthy in 2009?

    5. What if Perk didn't get hurt in 2010?

    I didn't go with TD because Pitino would have screwed it up and he'd have left as a FA anyways.

    Honorable mention what if Larry never had the back problems could we have won a few more?




    WAIT...WHAT?!  ARE YOU WHAT IFFING LOSING RODNEY ROGERS AND KENNY ANDERSON?!

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: What are your top 5 'What ifs?' in Celtic history?

    In response to Iceman4's comment:

    that was my point.......what would the team look like right now?

    I'm glad they did.


    I was pretty sure that's what you meant but wanted to make sure.

    Another along those lines:  What if the Celtics hadn't traded down in the 1980 draft, which ended up netting Robert Parish and Kevin McHale -- two thirds of the greatest frontcourt in NBA history?

    And a couple years later, Red got Dennis Johnson for Rick Robey in one of the most amazing one-sided deals in sports history.

     

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Re: What are your top 5 'What ifs?' in Celtic history?

    In response to BostonTrollSpanker's comment:

    Rame that's an impressive list. 

    Not drafting Kobe is an interesting one to consider. 

    So is the trading of Billups and/or Joe Johnson. 

    Reggie Lewis should probably be on your list. 

    I'd take Pitino off, at least in terms of Larry Brown, Brown never sticks around long anyhow so that's not a big one in my mind. Brown is better if you're right up against a championship. However: what if the Celts had turned the franchise over to Larry Bird instead of Pitino is very interesting, I might put that number three. Bird clearly knew a thing or two about building franchises, Pitino put us in a ten year tailspin.

    What if the Celts hadn't traded Perkins makes my top five, probably at the number five spot. I think it cost us a ring but likely not more than one ring (unlike the tragic loss of Bias which altered the course of the franchise)

     

       



    Here is my top 5 list of things that would have happened if we had Larry Brown over Pitino:

    1. McGrady over Mercer

    2. Ben Wallace over Dwayne Schintzious and later extends Bruce Bowen

    3. No Billups or Vitaly trades (meaning we kept our '99 1st rd pick)

    4. Dirk over Pierce ('98 C's are worse initially w/ TMac over mercer)

    5. '99 1st is Andre Miller, Marion, Rip Hamilton or Jason Terry. Let's say Terry or Rip so we have a SG.

    Team makes it to thew playoff under Larry Brown for the first time in the year 2000, 2 years earlier than the mess Pitino created.

    The rotation:

    C- Ben Wallace, Battie

    PF - Dirk, Antoine

    SF - TMac, Bowen

    SG - Terry or Hamilton

    PG - Billups

    That team makes the '01 finals over the Sixers

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from CablesWyndBairn. Show CablesWyndBairn's posts

    Re: What are your top 5 'What ifs?' in Celtic history?

    In response to rameakap's comment:

    In response to BostonTrollSpanker's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    Rame that's an impressive list. 

    Not drafting Kobe is an interesting one to consider. 

    So is the trading of Billups and/or Joe Johnson. 

    Reggie Lewis should probably be on your list. 

    I'd take Pitino off, at least in terms of Larry Brown, Brown never sticks around long anyhow so that's not a big one in my mind. Brown is better if you're right up against a championship. However: what if the Celts had turned the franchise over to Larry Bird instead of Pitino is very interesting, I might put that number three. Bird clearly knew a thing or two about building franchises, Pitino put us in a ten year tailspin.

    What if the Celts hadn't traded Perkins makes my top five, probably at the number five spot. I think it cost us a ring but likely not more than one ring (unlike the tragic loss of Bias which altered the course of the franchise)

     

       



    Here is my top 5 list of things that would have happened if we had Larry Brown over Pitino:

     

    1. McGrady over Mercer

    2. Ben Wallace over Dwayne Schintzious and later extends Bruce Bowen

    3. No Billups or Vitaly trades (meaning we kept our '99 1st rd pick)

    4. Dirk over Pierce ('98 C's are worse initially w/ TMac over mercer)

    5. '99 1st is Andre Miller, Marion, Rip Hamilton or Jason Terry. Let's say Terry or Rip so we have a SG.

    Team makes it to thew playoff under Larry Brown for the first time in the year 2000, 2 years earlier than the mess Pitino created.

    The rotation:

    C- Ben Wallace, Battie

    PF - Dirk, Antoine

    SF - TMac, Bowen

    SG - Terry or Hamilton

    PG - Billups

    That team makes the '01 finals over the Sixers

    [/QUOTE]


    Wasn't Dirk drafted before Pierce?  I think it was said that the C's wanted Dirk, but ended up getting a consolation prize in Pierce, the steal of the draft. 

     

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