Where are all the "Fire Doc" proponents now??

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Eldunker. Show Eldunker's posts

    Where are all the "Fire Doc" proponents now??

    The overwhelmingly negative response to the Perk trade on this board reminds me of the emotionally charged "Fire doc" campaign.

    Now that we see that both Perk and Nate are out ~6 weeks with injury and that Nenad may fit the Cetlics style much better than thought and the realization that we got Green and a first round pick ...by compromising very little - I sense a massive shift in support.  

    Many on this board wear their support on their emotional shirt sleeves, with blind devotion. 

    I can't wait for the response when the Celtics trade Rondo next year in a major rebuilding effort.

     
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from BiasLewis. Show BiasLewis's posts

    Re: Where are all the "Fire Doc" proponents now??

    Hmmm, I don't remember seeing "Fire Doc" posts on this board....maybe "Fire Ainge" but even that was premature.

    I haven't seen a Fire Doc post in a long long time. Rightfully so.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from videoburns. Show videoburns's posts

    Re: Where are all the "Fire Doc" proponents now??

    In Response to Where are all the "Fire Doc" proponents now??:



    They are all busy ignoring RR's strengths and magnifying his faults.

    And if they win this year Danny might indeed trade Rondo next year because everyone on a championship team tends to be "over-rated".  So there is no tellin what Danny might be able to extract from some other GM thinking they are just a Rondo away from a championship themselves. 
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Karllost. Show Karllost's posts

    Re: Where are all the "Fire Doc" proponents now??

    Agreed, nothing I recall about firing Doc in quite a long time.

    Actually, we've had a little good fortune come our way as a result of the recent trades..  I just posted this on another thread but this is what our roster would look like if we stayed pat:

    Center: Shaq OUT, JON OUT, Semi OUT, Perk OUT

    Forward: KG, PP, BBD OUT, Quis OUT, Luke

    Guards: Rondo, Ray, Nate OUT, West OUT, AB, Wafer

    Maybe the injury curse is finally coming to an end... it's somebody elses turn.. looks like OKC
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: Where are all the "Fire Doc" proponents now??

    They've all seen the error of their ways.  However, I do remember them......and it was after every little problem....every loss, every player being injured, even wins  that weren't by enough points.   None of them will now crawl out from under their rocks.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from NickFaldo. Show NickFaldo's posts

    Re: Where are all the "Fire Doc" proponents now??

    I'm someone who would probably be called a fire Doc person. It's not that I don't see his good points. He knows how to manage personalities. He draws up good plays out of timeouts. There are other things he is very good at.

    Bill Fitch was a great coach, but there weren't many too upset when he got canned. It's obviously too late in the season to fire him now. There was actually no point in the season where he should have been let go.

    Doc's a young man. He says he has the willingness to learn. He could become a great coach, but I don't see that happening, at least just yet.

    I heard Ray Allen's complaining of tired legs. That's a good thing. It will force Doc to give him more rest. In a best case scenario where the Celtics go into the playoffs rested and relatively healthy, it could be an easier run to the title than #17.

    There's too much animosity on this board. It seems to basically be coming from a few individuals. I'd say the biggest difference between myself and the Rondo/Perk haters is that I'm willing to concede on certain points about Doc. The Pudders of the world are non-stop hate with their copy and pastes that 99.999% of people scroll past.

    I've been wrong about Doc at times. Yet I think I've been correct on other things and stand by those comments. Bill Simmons is an esteemed sports writer who many of you would call a Doc hater. Just as bad as people who are fixated on denigrating a coach or player are those who will not concede any good points made by their opposition in debate. Doc is not one of the better coaches at making substitutions, managing minutes, and giving people on the bottom half of the bench much of a chance to move up the ladder. Here's a hypothetical. How would Larry Bird's rookie season have played out if Doc had been his coach? Ok, that's a bad example. Bird was perhaps the #1 player coming out of college that year. What if the Celtics weren't glued into the fourth seed last year by the last month? If not, I bet he would have run his older stars into the ground fighting for a higher seed. I think Doc does eventually make the right decisions, but I think he usually does it quite a bit of time after it should have been done.

    He is a young man though. He does have potential to develop into an all-time great coach. I don't think he's anywhere near that level yet. I'd call him a bit above average to a good coach. The Celtics hire coaches to work with bigs, point guards, etc.. They could use one for Doc. It could be left a secret so he could maintain his dignity. Too bad Red isn't still alive. He could have been the one to help Doc become a legend.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ortiz123. Show Ortiz123's posts

    Re: Where are all the "Fire Doc" proponents now??

    Doc is an excellent coach. Does he have things to learn. don't we all..Bottom line his players like playing for him, and they play hard. He treats them like men, the mark of real leadership. The young guns get their shot, but have to earn it.
    Last year they dind't go for the best record, they held back to let their  injured heal, and roared through the playoffs..ask Lebrons and his talents. When he had nothing but young players and losing, they pointed to his record,when he acquired the big 3, they said its because of the talent. Now he has new players, injured players, and yet same results.  I coach must bring out the best in his players, by that definition, he is a great coach.Some were saying that the coach from utah was head and tails above him, yet he quit.
    im not saying hes perfect, but is the perfect coach for this team at this time.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from P34. Show P34's posts

    Re: Where are all the "Fire Doc" proponents now??

    "It's not just Doc, it's also Ainge, both are below average at their jobs."

    Re: DUMP DOC

    posted at 2/28/2010 12:04 PM EST
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     It's not just Doc, it's also Ainge, both are below average at their jobs. If not for our best friend McHale helping Ainge, both he and Doc would have been long gone. Doc is one of the worse coaches in the league, and take away Ray, and KG, Ainge has assembled the worst group of non shooters,non atheltic players i have ever seen on one team.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from P34. Show P34's posts

    Re: Where are all the "Fire Doc" proponents now??

    "Fire Ainge, fire Doc, get a new captain, this ship is sinking."

    Re: Doc and coaching staff is the main problem....

    posted at 4/10/2010 11:16 AM EDT
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     Fire Ainge, fire Doc, get a new captain, this ship is sinking.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from P34. Show P34's posts

    Re: Where are all the "Fire Doc" proponents now??

    "Doc's more concerned with watching his kids play, then with coaching the Celtics."

    Re: Stop blaming Doc

    posted at 2/7/2010 5:33 PM EST
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     I've always said we won inspite of Doc, not because of Doc.

     Doc's more concerned with watching his kids play, then with coaching the Celtics.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from NickFaldo. Show NickFaldo's posts

    Re: Where are all the "Fire Doc" proponents now??

    Ortiz123, I'll concede on your points, but I will be curious if Doc quits if it seems the Celtics are entering rebuilding. I respect that the Utah coach stayed with the same team through various cycles. It's easy to say Doc is a great coach. It's easy to say nearly any coach would have led the Celtics to #17. I think the answer is somewhere in the middle. I'd hate to see Doc become the next Phil Jackson, picking and choosing which teams will give him the best chance to win it all.

    P34, those are interesting and perplexing kyceltic posts. He obviously has little respect for Paul Pierce. I also don't get why people think Minnesota got fleeced in the KG trade. Al Jefferson is a very good player. Compare that with who the Lakers coughed up for GaSoft.

    The post about Doc having cared more about his kids than coaching, I hate to say I kind of agree. But that time seems to have passed.

    I am like the chick who wants the wedding ring. (Though I'm a guy just using an analogy.) I want to see some long term commitment from Doc. His Clashian should I stay or go leads to speculation he could very well bolt from this team once it falls from being a top contender. I sometimes hate myself for hating on Doc too much.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from P34. Show P34's posts

    Re: Where are all the "Fire Doc" proponents now??

    Nick, it would be historic if Doc will able to coach his son, Austin Rivers, in the NBA and with the Celtics.

    HAHAHA!!! 
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from aciemvp. Show aciemvp's posts

    Re: Where are all the "Fire Doc" proponents now??

    I'll say this- if Ray Allen climbs into the coffin again this post season and whether we win it or not, I would move on from Doc Rivers as coach.  There are some things he does very well.  And others he does not so well and then yet more he has done perfectly.

    He's done a perfect job of over-using the living daylights out of ray allen while the roster has had good #2 substitutes in either tony allen or marcheese daniels on the bench for years now.  Yet Ray still logs crippling amounts of minutes.

    Is this good coaching?  Is it excusable?  Has not Ray Allen literally died and lost vital signs for us during key stretches of the playoffs each of the last three years?  Remember the record game in the finals?  That was the last thing we heard from Ray that series!

    These are coaching issues.  The coach controls who plays when and has been in full control of running Ray into the ground.  I don't see why it's acceptable for Danny to tolerate this and Doc to worst of all continue to do it.

    This is one thing about Doc that annoys the daylights out of me.  It's not like Marquis or Tony Allen could fall under the "he doesn't like rookies or young players" umbrella that Doc has used so frequently, as demonstrated by his coaching actions.

    So, while Doc does some very good things, he does some other extremly hammerheaded things that are borderline inexplicable.  Can anyone logically explain away how Ray has been systematically used up under Doc's tutelage?  It's still going on before your very eyes.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: Where are all the "Fire Doc" proponents now??

    So, you think Doc's a bad coach because he doesn't play the young guys, huh?   So what do you call the minutes that have developed BBD, Rondo, Perk, and Delonte West (when he was here the first time) into the players they are today?   What about Ryan Gomes.  Did he and Al Jefferson get minutes as young guys and get developed?   Many people have acknowledged that Jefferson hasn't really improved much since he left Boston.  Think any of that has to do with player development by Doc??   

    Doc's not perfect.  No coach is.  But, when you take into account the injuries to Shaq, JON, Semih Erden, Delonte West, Rondo, KG, etc, etc.......what is it you thought Doc should do in better order to win games and maintain at least a chance to get best record in the East.

    I'd also ask you to analyze and tell me what you think of the Celtic's bench performance this year.  So, BBD is standing in for Garnett and Shaq and Perk when in foul trouble and at the end of games.   Other than him, tell me how you think Nate, Semih, Wafer, Luke, and Bradley and others collectively performed when they were in the game together.  If the subs were in together and without Ray, Paul, KG, or Rondo, how do you think they all performed during the season?   Take for example, the recent Phoenix game or the first Phoenix game and tell me how you think the young bench guys performed. 

    Lack of young player development.....you might want to look at Danny and the young folks he drafted the last few years (Walker, Giddens, Bradley, and Luke).  Not sure we'd see many wins playing those guys!   I think Danny takes more blame for the risks he took in the draft choices.

    As for Ray getting tired....Ray has been in great shape and the Celts have failed to get a guard that can give quality minutes.  I do think Doc should have given Wafer more of a chance when Nate clearly wasn't delivering.  Fair criticism.  But, Ray's being off in the playoffs was due to 1. Shooters get hot and cold, its life and 2. He got a knee in the thigh.  The year before, he carried us to wins like the Chicago series so he clearly wasn't tired that year.

    Again - Doc's not perfect and I like the fact that you were somewhat balanced in your comments.  But, Doc has done a great job of bringing the team together in their first year and winning a championship, then getting them to the finals and 2 mins from a championship  a year when the veterans clearly were either injured or not motivated 2nd half of the season last year.   I'd just those performances as a pretty good coach.   When your team has multiple years of great records like this team since Garnett arrived, you have to give some credit to the coach, don't you?
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ortiz123. Show Ortiz123's posts

    Re: Where are all the "Fire Doc" proponents now??

    Maybe because he is the steady veteran, handles the ball well, and shoots lights out. Up until now, they had to depend on pp and ray for offense.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from aciemvp. Show aciemvp's posts

    Re: Where are all the "Fire Doc" proponents now??

    In Response to Re: Where are all the "Fire Doc" proponents now??:
    [QUOTE], As for Ray getting tired....Ray has been in great shape and the Celts have failed to get a guard that can give quality minutes.  I do think Doc should have given Wafer more of a chance when Nate clearly wasn't delivering.  Fair criticism.  But, Ray's being off in the playoffs was due to 1. Shooters get hot and cold, its life and 2. He got a knee in the thigh.  The year before, he carried us to wins like the Chicago series so he clearly wasn't tired that year. Again - Doc's not perfect and I like the fact that you were somewhat balanced in your comments.  But, Doc has done a great job of bringing the team together in their first year and winning a championship, then getting them to the finals and 2 mins from a championship  a year when the veterans clearly were either injured or not motivated 2nd half of the season last year.   I'd just those performances as a pretty good coach.   When your team has multiple years of great records like this team since Garnett arrived, you have to give some credit to the coach, don't you?
    Posted by Celtsfan4life[/QUOTE]

    yes, i believe that the ray allen over-usage problem is crazy.  in just GLIMPSES of von wafer (and i hope he's not hurt now) we see that there's an explosive 2 on the bench waiting to soak up 15 minutes a night and probably give us darn near 10 points in that time.

    and, yes, i did and do believe that pre-wafer the MQARQUIWSE DANYELLS was good enough to play both 2 and 3.  almost anything is better than running 35 y/o ray for 36 clicks a night.

    i think if the character flaw in doc regarding this to be identified is called stubborn.  ainge should have stepped in long ago and implored him to lay off of ray.  upon first signing wafer for the year they should have known at that point what the guy could do, and the answer is plenty.

    these may seem like little petty digs and barbs but it could be the difference b/t winning a championship and failing miserably.  ray has gone away on vacations in each of the finals since he came to boston.  i never thought he should play over 30 a game.  we've played him a solid 35 x 3 years.

    it's about up to another 2/3 of a season run time for a player who runs A LOT doing cuts, slants and rub offs.  it's a lot of extra work for an aged player to do that he shouldn't be doing.  that's my criticism and i'm sticking to it.

    and i'm also insisting that it has been and will be very contributory to our playoff success and failure.  if ray isn't on vacation after his record game last year, do you think we win it earlier?  maybe we do!
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from NickFaldo. Show NickFaldo's posts

    Re: Where are all the "Fire Doc" proponents now??

    I agree with Acie Earl on this one. My biggest complaint about Doc is how much he plays Ray Allen.

    Ray is perhaps the greatest pure shooter of all time. While he is 35 and not 87,  he is not 28 or even 32.

    Tired legs lead to turnovers and missed shots.

    Granted it's tough to blame Doc for overusing Ray and Rajon tonight. However, come playoff time if Ray has tired legs and Rondo tired feet, we are cooked. Doc's always been very careful with KG, even before his knee blew out. Too bad he doesn't have the same approach with Ray. Hopefully the Celtics go on a nice winning streak and secure the top Eastern seed well before the end of the season. The first round could be an easy sweep leading to even more rest before it comes time to put up or shut up.

    Doc lovers miss the obvious. It's as if they are related to him.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from videoburns. Show videoburns's posts

    Re: Where are all the "Fire Doc" proponents now??

    .Just one question for those that don't appreciate Doc's exstrordinary accomplishments as Celtics head coach -those that blindly insist that anyone could come in and coach the big three to a championship,,,,    How's Miami doing?    How's Miami doing with a big three  of far brighter stars than the over the hill gang that Danny brought together..   (in terms of recent individual offensive production that is - don't get me wrong   NOT in terms of career accomplishment or stature)   Well in case you haven't noticed - Miami is in dissarray..  can't win big games..   a basketball head case.        Please just give Doc the credit he deserves, thank him for what he has done here, and hope that he stays another year, or more. 

    And to the rest of the Doc haters who gave all the credit for the C's defense to Thibideau...    exactly how much has the C's Defense slipped since T's departure?.   2010 celtics with TT asssistant coach   C's were sixth in teram defense - (fewest points scored by opponents).    2011  no TT - Doc's defensive ineptitude would surely be exposed, right???     2011 Celtics are ....  um  1st in team defense 

    Doc is a brilliant coach, a natural leader, teacher, motivator and tacticion - and to those who critisize him for caring about his children more than his job.........are you serious?      get a life..  I hope you don't have kids of your own - or if you do that you somehow manage to grow up before they do.
           
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from videoburns. Show videoburns's posts

    Re: Where are all the "Fire Doc" proponents now??

    In Response to Re: Where are all the "Fire Doc" proponents now??:
    [QUOTE]"It's not just Doc, it's also Ainge, both are below average at their jobs." 
    Posted by P34[/QUOTE]

    Thank you  P34 for your brilliant archive work...  seriously this is priceless!   

    This post alone makes up for at least half of your most misguided assertions.

    I think a little more archive expose' work just might help stiffle some of the stupidity that so often pollutes the conversations here.

    Right KY?


     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: Where are all the "Fire Doc" proponents now??

    In Response to Re: Where are all the "Fire Doc" proponents now??:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Where are all the "Fire Doc" proponents now?? : yes, i believe that the ray allen over-usage problem is crazy.  in just GLIMPSES of von wafer (and i hope he's not hurt now) we see that there's an explosive 2 on the bench waiting to soak up 15 minutes a night and probably give us darn near 10 points in that time. and, yes, i did and do believe that pre-wafer the MQARQUIWSE DANYELLS was good enough to play both 2 and 3.  almost anything is better than running 35 y/o ray for 36 clicks a night. i think if the character flaw in doc regarding this to be identified is called stubborn.  ainge should have stepped in long ago and implored him to lay off of ray.  upon first signing wafer for the year they should have known at that point what the guy could do, and the answer is plenty. these may seem like little petty digs and barbs but it could be the difference b/t winning a championship and failing miserably.  ray has gone away on vacations in each of the finals since he came to boston.  i never thought he should play over 30 a game.  we've played him a solid 35 x 3 years. it's about up to another 2/3 of a season run time for a player who runs A LOT doing cuts, slants and rub offs.  it's a lot of extra work for an aged player to do that he shouldn't be doing.  that's my criticism and i'm sticking to it. and i'm also insisting that it has been and will be very contributory to our playoff success and failure.  if ray isn't on vacation after his record game last year, do you think we win it earlier?  maybe we do!
    Posted by aciemvp[/QUOTE]


    Well, Acie, I certainly want to see Ray get more rest but a couple of things to point out:

    1. I don't know if its true, but Doc claims Ray got kneed in the leg after the game where he set a record and couldn't jump after that.  I also saw Ray guarding Kobe such that Kobe's stats were off, too.  Seems Ray ran himself ragged slowing Kobe down.

    2. As for your statement above of Ray going on vacation......in the championship year, Ray averaged 17.4 points, 3.7 rebounds, and 3.1 assists during the regular season.  In the Finals when we won against the Lakes, he stepped it up....shot 50% from the floor, 52% from 3 point land, averaged 20.3 points and 6 rebounds.  I don't think that's vacation......that's going to work and stepping it up!!

    Overall, we agree, however, that I'd like to see Doc give Wafer more minutes.  I just wonder how many games we'd lose without our most consistent offensive player.  Ray has had the most consistent scoring year of anyone on the team this year, I believe.  
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from OneOnOne. Show OneOnOne's posts

    Re: Where are all the "Fire Doc" proponents now??

    In Response to Re: Where are all the "Fire Doc" proponents now??:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Where are all the "Fire Doc" proponents now?? : Well, Acie, I certainly want to see Ray get more rest but a couple of things to point out: 1. I don't know if its true, but Doc claims Ray got kneed in the leg after the game where he set a record and couldn't jump after that.  I also saw Ray guarding Kobe such that Kobe's stats were off, too.  Seems Ray ran himself ragged slowing Kobe down. 2. As for your statement above of Ray going on vacation......in the championship year, Ray averaged 17.4 points, 3.7 rebounds, and 3.1 assists during the regular season.  In the Finals when we won against the Lakes, he stepped it up....shot 50% from the floor, 52% from 3 point land, averaged 20.3 points and 6 rebounds.  I don't think that's vacation......that's going to work and stepping it up!! Overall, we agree, however, that I'd like to see Doc give Wafer more minutes.  I just wonder how many games we'd lose without our most consistent offensive player.  Ray has had the most consistent scoring year of anyone on the team this year, I believe.  
    Posted by Celtsfan4life[/QUOTE]

    Cfan,
    Ray has been very good this year but I don't see how you dismiss what Paul has done.  He averages more  pts than Ray on basically the same amount of shots per game. Both shoot right at 50 percent from the field. Ray hits more threes and  Paul gets to the line with Ray getting all the technical free throws. Ray shoots 87% from the line and Paul 85%   My vote goes to Paul.  Seems like in all anyone want to talk about is  Rondo, Ray, and KG, everyone seems to forget what he does for us. That is until he has a bad game then he gets mentioned alot. 
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from jerrycole. Show jerrycole's posts

    Re: Where are all the "Fire Doc" proponents now??

    Video burns and one-on-one, yours were really good posts.  Some good points that haven'tpreviously been re-hashed a thousand times here.

    I'm a big Doc fan.  To manage personalities like KG, Paul, Rondo, GDavis, etc. is a very difficult task in my opinion.  The players respect him, have faith in him, and do what he tells them to.  That's 90% of the battle for any coach.

    As has been pointed out, Doc is a master at drawing up plays during time-outs.  According to reports from TV analysts and respected sports columnists, the Celtics, under Doc, have one of the best records in the league at scoring right after a time-out.  That takes a lot of coaching talent, and I think it is an indication that the rest of his Xs and Os are also done well.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from BostonTrollSpanker. Show BostonTrollSpanker's posts

    Re: Where are all the "Fire Doc" proponents now??

    "Bill Simmons is an esteemed sports writer who many of you would call a Doc hater."

    Bill Simmons has had a change of heart on Doc and now considers him an excellent coach, you might want to look into why his views changed and consider updating yours. You need to keep up if you want to bring some compelling arguments in here. Oh and by the way, Doc is not a "young man," don't be a fool. He's about 50 years old. 


     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from paulliu. Show paulliu's posts

    Re: Where are all the "Fire Doc" proponents now??

    Doc's a great coach for THIS GROUP AT THIS TIME.  In the NBA, where the stars make many times what the coach makes and all of it guaranteed, the authority of the head coach is given to him at the sufferance of the stars.

    The vets on this team respect and trust Doc, do what he asks of them and play their tails off.  The rest of the team follows.  That is 90% of the battle.

    Doc, like just about any other head coach, knows his X's and O's.  But as Jerry West once said about Red Auerbach, that's not the most important factor.  West wrote that he thought there were other coaches sharper technically than Auerbach but that Auerbach's teams were always motivated, ready to play and played hard.

    A prime example of a coach who knew his chops but who had lost the team was Bill Fitch.  In 1983 he had Bird, Maxwell, McHale, Parish, Tiny Archibald, Ainge, Gerald Henderson and other good players and the team got swept by an inferior Hawks team after winning a title just two years before.

    I think that this season Doc has done a great job of juggling the lineup to deal with all the injuries.  The team has the 2nd best record in the league despite losing significant time from injuries to the O'Neils, West, Perk and Rondo.

    Of course now Doc faces the challenge of integrating all the new guys into a cohesive unit.  But I'm confidant Doc will be succesful.  You think Ainge would have retoooled the team for the playoffs if he didn't think Doc could blend the new talent? 

    Ainge obviously has tremondous confidence in Doc.   Even after the team lost 18 straight before the Big Three Era, Ainge continued to support Doc.  Not too many coaches survive after an 18 game losing streak.

    I think that Ainges's confidence has been fully justified.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from greenkillme. Show greenkillme's posts

    Re: Where are all the "Fire Doc" proponents now??

    As you can see the fans who don't know and can't appreciate what we are watching are still on here. There is a certain type of fan who really does love the sport but isn't very realistic in the expectations from the players.

    There are fans who post on here who would find something to complain about even if we were undefeated and winning every game by 20. I have known people like this my entire life and have always been perplexed by it. I have my theories ...like jealousy...like frustrated sports dreams of their own...like over playing their own sports careers and how good they were (former point guard pathology)...but in the end I still don't get it. Why not just be happy we have another great team, coach and general manager to call our team.
     
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