Where would the Celtics be without Garnet?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from P34. Show P34's posts

    Re: Where would the Celtics be without Garnet?

    In Response to Re: Where would the Celtics be without Garnet?:
    [QUOTE]Everyone on this board knows that anything that says Paul Pierce is not the greatest player is going to get your attention, just like most people know that KG is my favorite player. Pierce is a great player, and so is Allen. It takes great players to make a great team. KG is also a great player. Sometimes whole is greater than the sum of the parts. The thing that allowed the biggest turn around in NBA history was the stature and leadership that KG brought to the team. With out it, they are an older version of the Miami Heat, great players, but not a great team. That is not an exageration, that is Paul Pierce's take on what happened. Paul said, more than once, that KG changed the entire culture of the Celtic team.
    Posted by Jump-ball-overtime[/QUOTE]

    Almost everything you say about KG is true. It's just unfortunate that you keep telling people about KG holding T-Mac scoreless or that KG shut down Vince Carter in the 2003 All-Star game. 

    Tell me, will the Celtics win a championship without Paul Pierce and Ray Allen?

    Saying that KG is solely responsible for the biggest turn around in NBA history is only 1/3 true. The biggest turn around in NBA history is because of the Big 3! 
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from P34. Show P34's posts

    Re: Where would the Celtics be without Garnet?

    Tell me this, Jump, would the Celtics been able to win 66 games if Pierce and Ray were not part of the 2008 Celtics?

    You're making it sound like KG is Larry Bird or Tim Duncan. In case you don't know, Bird has 3 rings and Duncan has 4. So STOP EXAGGERATING!!! 
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from c.wright. Show c.wright's posts

    Re: Where would the Celtics be without Garnet?

    The C's need KG, a major factor in the line up. The other 4 starters
    are important, but KG is the force for the C's...love him. alwayshave
    even when he was in Minnesota wached every. He is very serious
    and loves what he does.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from kyceltic. Show kyceltic's posts

    Re: Where would the Celtics be without Garnet?



     pierce would be easy to replace. Ray could be replaced, although not as easy. KG could not be replaced, because no one brings all the things he brings to the Celtics!!
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from hedleylamarr. Show hedleylamarr's posts

    Re: Where would the Celtics be without Garnet?

    In Response to Re: Where would the Celtics be without Garnet?:
    [QUOTE] pierce would be easy to replace. Ray could be replaced, although not as easy. KG could not be replaced, because no one brings all the things he brings to the Celtics!!
    Posted by kyceltic[/QUOTE]


    I don't think Pierce can be "easily" replaced at all.  He is an elite scorer, and a good defender.  He is clutch, and you can't teach that.  Ray CAN be replaced, with a scorer, but his value is in spreding the floor.  As a SHOOTER, he cannot be replaced..................I think we all saw in 2009 how valuable KG is to this team.................he will be greatly missed when he leaves, but IF we are going into the tank in his last year.............................18.8 mill could bring some nice young players.
    "It's not personal Sonny (KG), it's strictly business." - Michael Corleone
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: Where would the Celtics be without Garnet?

    Agreed, Hedley.  There's no way Pierce can be easily replaced.  One might find a superstar (melo) who could replace Paul's scoring, but then he wouldn't be as good at Defense.  Paul is a special player as is Ray as is KG.  We're fortunate to have all three and no one of them is easily replaced.  I think KG is the most valuable of the 3, but that's only slightly ahead of Paul who is then slightly more valuable than Ray.  All 3 are critical to us.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from dbrown4. Show dbrown4's posts

    Re: Where would the Celtics be without Garnet?

    Here's another way to pose the question.  Would the Big 3 have won a championship anywhere but Boston?  I don't think so.  It lies in the intangibles, the team synergy and the Boston mystique that attracts all of us as Celtic fans. 

    Yes, KG did change a lot of things around Boston 4 years ago.  But the management had to get them to buy in to what Boston was offering.  It would not have worked had one of them wanted a bigger locker or bigger salary or more prestige, etc.  DA, Doc and Wyc all sat down with them and said, "Here's what we're offering.  We know how to win championships.  We have 16 hanging in the rafters.  You two extras with Paul don't exactly fit for us unless you are willing to shed your old skin and put on this new skin.  We're not going to ask you to overhaul your game, just make a few mild adjustments.  But given your years in the league and the way you've played to this point, we're skeptical about you easily making the recommended adjustments to your game.  It's doable, but men just don't change very well, especially when you've been doing it one way for a very long time.  But none of you three have a championship under your belt, so you might want to think real hard about what we are offering."  Something like that. 

    I sure the Big three as well as the team sat down somewhere in Italy and said, "We're buying it."  And the rest is history.
      
    No one else would have put those three together but Boston, because Boston has that knack for putting less than superstar talent together and turning above ordinary people into extraordinary teams and winning championships.     
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from OneNation. Show OneNation's posts

    Re: Where would the Celtics be without Garnet?

    I think the most important factor in the Celtics last champioship season was their team defense. Certainly this was more important than any of the Big 3. I have not seen it duplicated consistently since that time.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheDUDDER. Show TheDUDDER's posts

    Re: Where would the Celtics be without Garnet?

    In Response to Re: Where would the Celtics be without Garnet?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Where would the Celtics be without Garnet? : I don't think Pierce can be "easily" replaced at all.  He is an elite scorer, and a good defender.  He is clutch, and you can't teach that.  Ray CAN be replaced, with a scorer, but his value is in spreding the floor.  As a SHOOTER, he cannot be replaced..................I think we all saw in 2009 how valuable KG is to this team.................he will be greatly missed when he leaves, but IF we are going into the tank in his last year.............................18.8 mill could bring some nice young players. "It's not personal Sonny (KG), it's strictly business." - Michael Corleone
    Posted by hedleylamarr[/QUOTE]

    I have gone through this kind of exercise in the past:  I list all 5 Celtics starters and then go player by player and try to assess the other players in their respective positions around the league and try to determine how many players could step in for player X and the Cs would not miss a beat.

    So take Pierce as an example:  How many guys in the league could he be replaced by and would the Cs be better / worse / no worse off.  I think I can only come up with one or two where they would be better or no worse off - LeBron, Durant, maybe 'melo.

    With KG I think it might only be Amare, Timmy.

    With Ray it is Kobe, Wade, maybe Joe Johnson

    With Rondo a dozen guys and ditto for Perk
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: Where would the Celtics be without Garnet?

    In Response to Re: Where would the Celtics be without Garnet?:
    [QUOTE]Here's another way to pose the question.  Would the Big 3 have won a championship anywhere but Boston?  I don't think so.  It lies in the intangibles, the team synergy and the Boston mystique that attracts all of us as Celtic fans.  Yes, KG did change a lot of things around Boston 4 years ago.  But the management had to get them to buy in to what Boston was offering.  It would not have worked had one of them wanted a bigger locker or bigger salary or more prestige, etc.  DA, Doc and Wyc all sat down with them and said, "Here's what we're offering.  We know how to win championships.  We have 16 hanging in the rafters.  You two extras with Paul don't exactly fit for us unless you are willing to shed your old skin and put on this new skin.  We're not going to ask you to overhaul your game, just make a few mild adjustments.  But given your years in the league and the way you've played to this point, we're skeptical about you easily making the recommended adjustments to your game.  It's doable, but men just don't change very well, especially when you've been doing it one way for a very long time.  But none of you three have a championship under your belt, so you might want to think real hard about what we are offering."  Something like that.  I sure the Big three as well as the team sat down somewhere in Italy and said, "We're buying it."  And the rest is history.    No one else would have put those three together but Boston, because Boston has that knack for putting less than superstar talent together and turning above ordinary people into extraordinary teams and winning championships.     
    Posted by dbrown4[/QUOTE]

    I think you're rewriting history to fit your own opinion.

    1. You have no idea how that conversation went and I think it went different. 
    2. Wyc and Danny have NEVER won a championship together so that whole "we know how to win championships" would have been unimpressive, false, and self serving......only served to anger them.
    3. They could have won a championship anywhere that Doc Rivers was coaching.   Those three, especially Garnett, along with Doc and Tib as coaches did it together.  They could have taken almost any other center and any other point guard and won.   Rondo was NOT a big factor in that run of 2008.   

    Let's not try to "romantisize" Boston as some place where all NBA chmpionships are won.   It happens in Chicago, LA, Detroit, San Antonio, etc.  They could have won in LOTS of cities. 
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from kybested. Show kybested's posts

    Re: Where would the Celtics be without Garnet?

    In Response to Re: Where would the Celtics be without Garnet?:
    [QUOTE] pierce would be easy to replace. Ray could be replaced, although not as easy. KG could not be replaced, because no one brings all the things he brings to the Celtics!!
    Posted by kyceltic[/QUOTE]

    Howdy, Lakerman17! Cool

    Got bested, err busted lately?
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Jump-ball-overtime. Show Jump-ball-overtime's posts

    Re: Where would the Celtics be without Garnet?

    Celt for life,

    Pierce agrees with you, and so do I. KG is a "company man" and a team player first, even in his pre-celtic days.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from P34. Show P34's posts

    Re: Where would the Celtics be without Garnet?

    In Response to Re: Where would the Celtics be without Garnet?:
    [QUOTE]Celt for life, Pierce agrees with you, and so do I. KG is a "company man" and a team player first, even in his pre-celtic days.
    Posted by Jump-ball-overtime[/QUOTE]

    That's right, KG is a company man, NOT THE MAIN MAN like Bird or Duncan!

    But it's also true that the Celtics WILL NOT WIN A CHAMPIONSHIP WITHOUT KG!

    So stop it already with the "holding T-Mac scoreless" or "destroying VC in the 2003 All-Star game" crap! 


     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from breaktime. Show breaktime's posts

    Re: Where would the Celtics be without Garnet?

    In Response to Re: Where would the Celtics be without Garnet?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Where would the Celtics be without Garnet? : Yes he did.  Remember when he was asked if he thought Laimbeer should be an All-Star? Announcer- Do you think Bill Laimbeer should make the All-Star team this year? Larry - I hope he doesn't Announcer - Why not? Larry (classic) - Cuz when I get on the bus, he'll say 'Good morning Larry.'  I'll say 'F you Bill', then go and sit down.
    Posted by hedleylamarr[/QUOTE]
    Classic
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Jump-ball-overtime. Show Jump-ball-overtime's posts

    Re: Where would the Celtics be without Garnet?

    P34, you insist on ridiculous interpretations of what I write just to pick a fight.

    KG is not Bird, and not Duncan, and he has only one ring.

    It is not an exaggeration that the biggest single year turn around occurred when KG came to the Celtics. The turn around was larger than when Duncan joined the Spurs, the previous largest turnaround, and when Bird joined the Celtics the record holding year before that. It is also your hero's opinion that it was KG that changed the culture of the Celtics. He did not win it by himself, it took a great team with great players.

    I do believe that if KG had stayed healthy, there would have been more banners in Boston than we have now.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from P34. Show P34's posts

    Re: Where would the Celtics be without Garnet?

    In Response to Re: Where would the Celtics be without Garnet?:
    [QUOTE]P34, you insist on ridiculous interpretations of what I write just to pick a fight. KG is not Bird, and not Duncan, and he has only one ring. It is not an exaggeration that the biggest single year turn around occurred when KG came to the Celtics. The turn around was larger than when Duncan joined the Spurs, the previous largest turnaround, and when Bird joined the Celtics the record holding year before that. It is also your hero's opinion that it was KG that changed the culture of the Celtics. He did not win it by himself, it took a great team with great players. I do believe that if KG had stayed healthy, there would have been more banners in Boston than we have now.
    Posted by Jump-ball-overtime[/QUOTE]

    I'm not picking a fight! 

    Did Ray Allen also go to the Spurs when Duncan joined the Spurs in 1997?

    Did Ray Allen go to Boston in Larry Bird's rookie year?

    RAY ALLEN AND KG CAME TO BOSTON IN 2007 TO JOIN FORCES WITH PIERCE AND IT RESULTED IN THE BIGGEST TURN AROUND IN NBA HISTORY!

    Saying that KG is the only reason for the biggest turn around in NBA history is simply not true!

    Not everything Pierce says is true. Wasn't he the one who said he's the best player in the world after winning a championship in 2008? Also, didn't Pierce say he's the greatest 3-point shooter in the NBA after winning the 3-point shootout last season?
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ortiz123. Show Ortiz123's posts

    Re: Where would the Celtics be without Garnet?

    Ill be glad if all three have some of their best games left for at least 2 more years...and history has a way of settlling these debates...
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from dbrown4. Show dbrown4's posts

    Re: Where would the Celtics be without Garnet?

    Celticfan,

    You want romance?  Read a book.  You want the best chance to win a championship year in, year out?  Go to BOS or LAL.  There are 33 banners out of 60+ seasons to prove it.  All the rest wannabes combined (CHI=6, SAS=4, MIA=1, ORL=1, NYK=2)...well you get the point. 
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from P34. Show P34's posts

    Re: Where would the Celtics be without Garnet?

    In Response to Re: Where would the Celtics be without Garnet?:
    [QUOTE]Celticfan, You want romance?  Read a book.  You want the best chance to win a championship year in, year out?  Go to BOS or LAL.  There are 33 banners out of 60+ seasons to prove it.  All the rest wannabes combined (CHI=6, SAS=4, MIA=1, ORL=1, NYK=2)...well you get the point. 
    Posted by dbrown4[/QUOTE]

    The alternative would be Lady Gaga and her "Bad Romance".
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from TeamUmbutu. Show TeamUmbutu's posts

    Re: Where would the Celtics be without Garnet?

    ESPN is running a few good articles right now about KG, his intensity, and other related topics.

    It is a good read.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from P34. Show P34's posts

    Re: Where would the Celtics be without Garnet?

    In Response to Re: Where would the Celtics be without Garnet?:
    [QUOTE]ESPN is running a few good articles right now about KG, his intensity, and other related topics. It is a good read.
    Posted by TeamUmbutu[/QUOTE]

    You're right, it's a good read. And there was no mention of KG holding T-Mac scoreless or KG destroying Vince Carter in the 2003 All-Star game.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Jump-ball-overtime. Show Jump-ball-overtime's posts

    Re: Where would the Celtics be without Garnet?

    P34,

    Neither Bird nor Duncan did it by themselves. Duncan had Robinson, Avery Johnson, and others.Bird had Maxwell , Cowens, Pete Maravich, Tiny Archibald, and others. 

    No one is saying that Pierce is chopped liver, and that Allen did not contribute as you state that I imply. That is just not true.

    However, not all players are created equally, and some have more to do with making a team what it is. KG had the stature, all-around game, focus on team play, unselfish nature, and leadership to change the team culture. That is why he gets more credit than the others. The same is true of the other big turn around teams.

    This is a chart of the NBA honors and statistics for each of the big three over there careers. It includes current values, and 2008 point scoring, as stated by nbareference.com


    HonorsKGPierceAllen

    All Star Appearances

    14910
    All Star Starts1100
    All Star MVP100
    First Team All NBA400
    Second Team All NBA311
    Third team All NBA231
    League MVP100
    Finals MVP010
    First team All NBA defensive player800
    Second team All NBA defensive player200
    Defensive player of the year100
    2008 Playoff scoring average20.4 points per game19.7 points per game15.6 points pergame
    2008 Regular season scoring average18.8 points per game19.6 points per game17.3 points pergame
    Total Number of points Career229362091521900
    Number of 3 pointers16715422565 NBA leader
    Total number of reboundsCareer1168251074626
    Career scoring average19.6 22.320.4
    Career rebound average10.86.14.3
    Career assist average4.13.83.6
    Career steal average1.41.51.2
    Career block shot average1.60.60.2

    ...and each has one ring.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from kyceltic. Show kyceltic's posts

    Re: Where would the Celtics be without Garnet?

    In Response to Re: Where would the Celtics be without Garnet?:
    [QUOTE]P34, Neither Bird nor Duncan did it by themselves. Duncan had Robinson, Avery Johnson, and others.Bird had Maxwell , Cowens, Pete Maravich, Tiny Archibald, and others.  No one is saying that Pierce is chopped liver, and that Allen did not contribute as you state that I imply. That is just not true. However, not all players are created equally, and some have more to do with making a team what it is. KG had the stature, all-around game, focus on team play, unselfish nature, and leadership to change the team culture. That is why he gets more credit than the others. The same is true of the other big turn around teams. This is a chart of the NBA honors and statistics for each of the big three over there careers. It includes current values, and 2008 point scoring, as stated by nbareference.com Honors KG Pierce Allen All Star Appearances 14 9 10 All Star Starts 11 0 0 All Star MVP 1 0 0 First Team All NBA 4 0 0 Second Team All NBA 3 1 1 Third team All NBA 2 3 1 League MVP 1 0 0 Finals MVP 0 1 0 First team All NBA defensive player 8 0 0 Second team All NBA defensive player 2 0 0 Defensive player of the year 1 0 0 2008 Playoff scoring average 20.4 points per game 19.7 points per game 15.6 points per game 2008 Regular season scoring average 18.8 points per game 19.6 points per game 17.3 points per game Total Number of points Career 22936 20915 21900 Number of 3 pointers 167 1542 2565 NBA leader Total number of rebounds Career 11682 5107 4626 Career scoring average 19.6 22.3 20.4 Career rebound average 10.8 6.1 4.3 Career assist average 4.1 3.8 3.6 Career steal average 1.4 1.5 1.2 Career block shot average 1.6 0.6 0.2 ...and each has one ring.
    Posted by Jump-ball-overtime[/QUOTE]

     If they were actors, KG would be on the A list, Ray and pierce would be on the C list.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Celtsfan4life. Show Celtsfan4life's posts

    Re: Where would the Celtics be without Garnet?

    In Response to Re: Where would the Celtics be without Garnet?:
    [QUOTE]Celticfan, You want romance?  Read a book.  You want the best chance to win a championship year in, year out?  Go to BOS or LAL.  There are 33 banners out of 60+ seasons to prove it.  All the rest wannabes combined (CHI=6, SAS=4, MIA=1, ORL=1, NYK=2)...well you get the point. 
    Posted by dbrown4[/QUOTE]


    Stop dreaming, my man.  the Facts AND the predictions of others would tell you that people don't come to Boston as free agents "because we here in Boston know how to win championships".   Get real.   We got Bird and McHale in a draft because we had been so terrible before that.   Danny was able to trade draft picks and young talent for Ray (who did NOT beg to come here) and only then would Garnett even consider accepting a trade.   We don't get many of the high profile free agents and we aren't projected to get many.   I believe Danny will change some of that, but your "dreamworld" of how some imaginary conversation went is completely irrelevant.   The real facts say that these players move for the money, the city (glamour and endorsements), and the chance to play with other stars and make their name even bigger.   They don't come because "hey man, we here in boston know how to win championships".

    yea, right....like we did all those 20 years when we were completely irrelevant, huh?

    Thank goodness Danny made the right moves to get Stars who want to win and be great team players.  These guys, especially Garnett, are unique and very much unlike most of the stars today.  We are lucky to have them and their wonderful "sacrifice for the team" approach but don't think some Boston mystique made them all change for the team.  They did it because of Doc and Garnett's attitudes.  
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from TeamUmbutu. Show TeamUmbutu's posts

    Re: Where would the Celtics be without Garnet?

    “You are awarded a pass when you change the culture of a basketball team the way Garnett did when he came to Boston with his maniacal dedication to the game, particularly on the defensive end of the floor.”

     

    http://sports.espn.go.com/boston/nba/columns/story?columnist=macmullan_jackie&id=6143766

     

    Jackie MacMullan


     

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