Re: who to take, westbrook or rondo?
posted at 11/24/2010 11:35 AM EST
In Response to Re: who to take, westbrook or rondo?
In Response to who to take, westbrook or rondo? : I find this topic fascinating..... People love to put qualifiers on topics such that it protects their opinion / perspective / team / psyche, etc. If you say "I would take X player instead of Rondo" someone will respond with "for this team Rondo fits in perfectly".... to this I say anytime you add a player that is simply better without any "qualifiers" you are a better team. NO OTHER PLAYER PLAYS WITH 4 GUYS GOING TO THE HALL OF FAME ON THE VERY FIRST VOTE. People say Rondo is "perfect for this team" but then fail to even consider / think about / discuss that no other player in the league is playing with 4 players going to the Hall of Fame unanimously on the first ballot. These are the same people that say that Perk is a borderline all-star something or other and how could they possibly get by without Perk for half the season.... when in reality, the Cs were able to sign two centers that are better than Perkins. Give the following players #5, #20, and #34 and the Cs are no worse off and in many cases a lot better. C Paul, Deron Williams, Jennings, Rose, Wall, Davis, Udrih, Nash, Evans, Curry, Ellis, Westbrook, Devin Harris, Brooks, Parker, Kidd, and so on... Again, the context that I am laying out is that the Cs would not be worse off and in many cases a lot better. Would the defense be doubling off Nash? Ignoring Tyreke Evans? Daring Devin Harris to beat them? Rondo is an automatic double team - every night a coach says "so and so is not going to beat us tonight"... then the next day people say Ray Allen or KG or PP had a crappy game but cannot associate the fact that the opponent decided to take a player out of the game by ignoring Rondo and doubling one of the big 3. Wide open uncontested jumper at the end of the Dallas game - the Mavs are laughing and on their way to the locker room as soon as Rondo is getting the ball in place to clang one - barely catching iron - ditto against the Bulls. You may give up some defense but your offense is a lot better, your point guard may no longer be a liability in the half court set (as both Doc and Coach K said recently), your point guard may not pass up layups because he is afraid to go to the foul line, your point guard - if he could shoot - would have 5 fewer assists per game because he would be taking and making jumpers, your point guard would not be costing the offense 3 points per game (the best point guards go to the line twice as often and make a percentage that is almost twice as high). So for me it is not just Westbrook - there is no way to assess what Rondo's teammates mean to his game and there is no way to assess to how other players would affect the Cs overall ability to contend. But I contend very simply that no other point guard in the league has as much talent to play with however there are many other point guards in the league that are just as capable in their overall game that would ensure the Cs are just as good if not a lot better. Who is the all time leading assist leader to start his career in assists? John Wall... does he pass the ball to #5, #34, #20? Who is the only point guard to score at least 50 points and have triple double in his first calendar year in the NBA? Brandon Jennings..... but of course..... these guys are not "perfect for this team"..... again, if you put qualifiers on things, you make any argument you want to make. I remember all of the posters on this blog talking about how Al Jefferson will be a perennial all-star. He has never made an all-star team - never even got close - and as a matter of fact played on a lottery team every year in the league until this year when his point guard will get him into the playoffs and he will be again not make the playoffs because a rookie will make the all-star team and he will again be enjoying more than one beverage and watching the all-star game. There is a general consensus that now that Rondo has made an all-star team he will be the perennial point guard representative. In the last few years Rondo, Rose, Nelson, and Harris have made the all-star team. If Rondo were in the West and not playing with the three HOF he would not even get a sniff and in the east there are any number of players that will get an all-star nod and as a result of who he plays with, Rondo will get all-star games where he is clearly not one of the best point guards but gets the nod as a result of who he plays with. They are no worse off with Harris, Wall, Nash, Kidd, Evans, Paul, Williams, Nelson, Rose, Davis, Parker, Westbrook, etc..................... but if you keep putting qualifiers on it it - "Rondo is pefect for this team"...... though simply having better players and or no worse players they are in the same position.
Posted by TheDUDDER
At first you used to argue that with Rondo we won't win a championship ring. Then it happened.
Then you argued that Rondo will never be considered an elite PG. Then it happened.
Rondo went on to exceed the expectation further by matching avg. assist numbers (over a statistically long period of time) of the two best PGs NBA has ever produced (Stockton and Magic).
Now your argument is: Rondo plays with 4 HOFers, therefore everything is easy for him.
Well, Arroyo plays with 3 HOFers. Look where he is at? Remember the time when you used to claim that Arroyo was actually as good or perhaps even better than Rondo?
First of all, Celtics don't have 4 HOFers on the team. They have 4 potential HOFers. But this statement is misleading. Shaq shouldn't count because he is washed up. Even Shaq would agree with the statement that he is washed up. A person with Shaq's current production would not even come close to making HOF.
Second of all, of PP, Ray and KG, only KG was almost locked in for HOF when the Big 3 started playing together 3 years ago. Most will argue that if Boston's Big 3 experiment had not worked out, PP and Ray would only have a slim or a slightly better than slim shot of making HOF.
But even if they are making HOF, at the end of the day players with the current productions of PP, KG and Ray are dime a dozen in the NBA. Go and checkout where PP, KG and Ray rank in the various individual stat columns. All 3 are pretty low on most everything.
This HOF garbage is pretty bad IMO. Give the player the credit for the wins that his team is putting up. Regardless of who he has and who he doesnt have.
Larry Bird played with a pretty good bunch of players. Want to take something away from Larry's game? Magic played with a pretty spectacular cast of players. Want to take something away from Magic? Same thing with Michael Jordan. Same thing with Kobe Bryant?
What has anyone of the above mentioned players done without a great cast of players supporting them? NOTHING.
Rondo is an elite PG. IMO, two of the greatest PGs to have ever played this game (Magic and Cousy) think Rondo is an elite PG. They didn't say this because their bonus payment had a stipulation that they had to promote Rondo in the media. They said it because they believed it.
If you want to disregard their opinion, then go ahead. To me their opinion trumps your every single time.
And who cares who the best PG is. To me, Rondo, Williams, CP3 represent elite distributors in this game. They see the game better than anyone else. All 3 are elite. All 3 bring different strengths and weaknesses to different teams. The question is, whose strengths are almost redundant on a team and who strengths plug in the weaknesses on a team.
For the Celtics, Rondo is as perfect as fit for PG as anyone else in the NBA. Danny believes so. Otherwise, Rondo wouldn't be on our team. We all know Danny isn't shy about shipping players that he doesn't believe fit our style of basketball.