Does seeding make sense?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from concussed. Show concussed's posts

    Does seeding make sense?

    Just looking at the d1 boys soccer tourney, for games through Nov. 8, the lower-seeded team has won 14 of 24 contests.  It's particularly notable at this stage, since as the tourney progresses, there are probably fewer matches between teams with widely divergent seeds.
    In what should be the least competitive matches, the 14 matches in which the difference in seeds was 9 or more, the lower seed has won 50% of the time.  When the difference in seeds has been 7 or less, the lower-seeded team has won 70% of the time.
    There has to be a better way.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hockeymomsrule. Show Hockeymomsrule's posts

    Re: Does seeding make sense?

    It happens in every sport.  Every league is different, some are incredibly strong from top to bottom and have middle of the pack or near last place teams that are significantly stronger than the top team from another division. The team from the stronger league has the lower seed becuase they won fewer games but were playing much stiffer competition.  The team from the weaker league has a better record/win percentage but has their wins over teams that wouldn't be able to compete against the middle/lower seed from the stronger division. 

    Other than completely re-aligning the leagues based on say competitiveness of the programs instead of geography, what is the solution? Even that would only work for so many years, as every few years you have a swing from one league to the other depending on the athletes from that area in that time frame. It's a difficult task they have and they definately aren't doing it right now in a way that makes any sense, but what are the options?
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hockeymomsrule. Show Hockeymomsrule's posts

    Re: Does seeding make sense?

    Seeding matters in that there are often times when you get the 10 strongest teams from a division having to knock each other out in the early rounds.  You then end up with lopsided games in the semi's and finals, which does neither team any good. The team from the stronger league that survived the early rounds against tough opponents smokes the team that got through the tournament playing creampuff opponents.  Strength of schedule needs to be factored in if they're ever going to get the seedings "right", it can't just be win/loss percentage and achieve the most competitive bracket from prelimary round through finals.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from concussed. Show concussed's posts

    Re: Does seeding make sense?

    Some purposes of school athletics might be to set examples for competitiveness and fairness, and develop ability.
    An improvement might be to require at least as many wins as losses in D1 games to qualify.  Then base seeding on total points in D1 games, using 3 points per win and 1 per tie, following global practice in the sport.
    The effects would include 1) fewer teams would qualify, which is OK considering about 2/3 qualify now; 2) the mis-seeding of teams for the reasons you've explained would be reduced, resulting in fewer blowouts and "surprises", and 3) schools would be encouraged to play as competitive a schedule as possible.
    There would still be the need to win it on the field, there would still be upsets and unexpected championship runs, etc., but these would be 2 relatively simple changes that would improve the process.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from AlexFilides. Show AlexFilides's posts

    Re: Does seeding make sense?

    They seem to be able to do it with the Super 8 hockey tournament, hopefully someday they can figure it out. Acton-Boxboro has potentially a very unfair road.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from miked070707. Show miked070707's posts

    Re: Does seeding make sense?

    I really don't think it is that big of a deal and I think it would be next to impossible to seed them with any kind of accuracy.  Lets take Oliver Ames and Braintree for example.  There is little doubt in my mind that those two teams are better then East Boston and Madison Park.  But in what world is anyone going to say that 500 teams should be seeded higher then teams with 0 or 1 loss?  Thats just not going to happen.  No matter the seeding there are going to be teams like Acton-Boxboro with a tougher road then most.  I would love to get a seeding system based on subjective standards, but I just don't think its practical.

    Alex, I think the Super 8 has its own issues not to mention hockey is a little different because the Catholic schools are so much stronger then the public schools which isn't necessarily the case in soccer.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from scrapa-. Show scrapa-'s posts

    Re: Does seeding make sense?

    Go back to the 22 point system from the 80's and 90's.  18 points to get into the tourney is too low.  There is no reason to have 25 teams in a section, it rewards mediocrity.  If a team from the North or South that has played a prelim happens to make the Finals, it will be their 7th game in 14 days.  It will be the West's representative's 5th game.  Ridiculous.  Don't focus on the seeding, focus on the equality of the brackets/sections.  That is alot more easily remedied.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from concussed. Show concussed's posts

    Re: Does seeding make sense?

    For D1 boys in EMass, now that quarterfinals are set, you can see that the current "seeding" only identified 6 of the remaining 16 teams.  Such a system should be able to average more like 12/16.  It doesn't require a subjective selection process, just one that focuses on results in D1 games.  That's not hard to put in place.  It's transparent.  It doesn't mean schools have to change leagues or won't make the tournament, it just means that those whose leagues include a lot of smaller schools will be seeded lower than now.  It would show that a team like Mansfield, "seeded" 20th but winner of 2 "upsets", should have been viewed as a favorite in both so far.  Only 3 South teams had more D1 wins than Mansfield.
    If there's no inclination to improve seeding, then scrap it, and go with the suggestion to pair up teams from different leagues, but geographically close.  This would boost attendance, which is always nice for the kids, and should be a plus from the MIAA perspective.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from slowbutquick. Show slowbutquick's posts

    Re: Does seeding make sense?

    Basically the rule is that if you have a .500 record in your division you get into the tournment, Teams just need to get in.  Smarter coaches schedule tough games outside their div and league in order to get battle tested for the tourny even it lowers their seed. 
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from AlexFilides. Show AlexFilides's posts

    Re: Does seeding make sense?

    I'm not sure, I disagree and think seeding makes a huge difference. If you looked at A-B's potential road, St. John's Prep, Masconomet, Lincoln-Sudbury, Lexington vs. 17 seeded Somerville(Hyde Park, Madison Park and now Medford before moving on to L-S and Lexington). A-B has two much tougher opponents than Somerville did, even though A-B had a higher seed.

    I bet I could do it in under 2 hours. Take the best 16 teams out of each section N and S, D-1, D-2 and D-3. Rank them accordingly, come up with some RPI-like system. The funny part is although this would be a much fairer system, you would probably get more people complaining.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from AlexFilides. Show AlexFilides's posts

    Re: Does seeding make sense?

    And honestly, if I was Baumritter or whatever the A-B coach's last name is, I would be pretty upset.

    3 losses, 2 against L-S and the other to SJP. They did go out and beat Algonquin and tied Concord-Carlisle. Doesn't seem like justice to me.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from gameday66. Show gameday66's posts

    Re: Does seeding make sense?

    The current way using winning % is the only fair way to do it.  Can you imagine the MIAA trying to decide the seeds based on records, strenghth of schedule, etc.   would take a semester to do.   They would think their the NCAA basketball committee.

    If your going to win it all, you should be able to beat everyone and anyone.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from AlexFilides. Show AlexFilides's posts

    Re: Does seeding make sense?

    You're entitled to your opinion, we'll just have to agree to disagree. However, I did agree with your statement there would be a lot more complaining.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Goalazzo. Show Goalazzo's posts

    Re: Does seeding make sense?

    Where did the grousing about the seeding come from: a strong team out of a tough league complaining about a low seed or a humiliated high seed with a great record, from a weak league - who cares? If you win, you're still in. If not, you go home (hopefully with grace and dignity) just like every other team. Seeding, as we all know, doesn't mean squat on the field. Winning's the coin of the realm.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from SPORTSRGOOD. Show SPORTSRGOOD's posts

    Re: Does seeding make sense?

    Apponoquit managed to lose without grace and dignity tonight.

    Cheap shot and Red Card at the end of a 4-0 beating by Sandwich.

    Their fans cheering the cheap shot artist (17) as he left the field.

    They barely got the ball over midfield.   Their league must be weak.  They had nothing.

    Without the fine play of their goalie it would have been 10-0.


     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from brett2323. Show brett2323's posts

    Re: Does seeding make sense?

    To answer the topic question, no not really. But is there a fairer way to seed it? Yes but it would probably become less fair than the system that is in place now ex. teams from lower leagues wouldnt be able to prove themselves if they were cut from the bracket. Lets also remember the MIAA isnt the BCS it wouldnt be very easy to 'rank' the qualifying teams from each league only knowing 1) their record and 2) the relative strength of the league, the latter being more controversial imo. The league I know best is the NEC. The games are certainly not the prettiest to watch and some of the teams arent too great, but it does have some teams that CAN compete with the very best playing THEIR style. It would be biased to say that one league is inferior to another based on how they play and how many club players there are in a given league. I also think if the conferences were 'ranked' too much emphasis would be put on history rather than the quality of the teams that given season. Using the example of the NEC again, the quality of the league fluctuates pretty significantly imo, and im sure this is true with other leagues. If there was actually a way to rank the leagues EACH season I'd be for it but I seriously doubt it would be possible. Is the system in place perfect? No, but it good enough imo given the resources and lets not make changes that will cause injustices in different ways.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from CapeDad. Show CapeDad's posts

    Re: Does seeding make sense?

    In Response to Re: Does seeding make sense?:
    Apponoquit managed to lose without grace and dignity tonight. Cheap shot and Red Card at the end of a 4-0 beating by Sandwich. Their fans cheering the cheap shot artist (17) as he left the field. They barely got the ball over midfield.   Their league must be weak.  They had nothing. Without the fine play of their goalie it would have been 10-0.
    Posted by SPORTSRGOOD


    Agreed.  It was an unfortunate incident.  Their fans (student ones) showed very little class.  I was told to "blank off" as I was waiting for one of them to pull out of a parking spot.  How proud the parents must be.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from AlexFilides. Show AlexFilides's posts

    Re: Does seeding make sense?

    Wait a minute, why is the west seeded?

    Bracket Notes:
    1. Granby (13-0-5)
    2. Hopkins (12-2-4)
    3. Gateway (9-1-6)
    4. Smith Academy (11-3-4)
    5. Lenox (8-8-2)
    6. Mount Everett (5-5-7)
    7. Sabis (9-6-3)
    8. Turners Falls (6-5-4)
    9. Lee (6-9-2)
    10. St. Joseph (5-9-3)
    11. Franklin Cty Tech (8-6-2)
    12. Pathfinder (10-8-0)
    13. McCann (9-7-2)

    1. Mt. Greylock (16-0-1)
    2. South Hadley (12-2-4)
    3. Southwick (11-3-4)
    4. Monson (10-4-4)
    5. Belchertown (9-3-4)
    6. Easthampton (9-4-3)
    7. Hampshire (6-4-6)
    8. Monument Mtn (8-6-3)
    9. Wahconah (6-5-5)
    10. Palmer (8-7-3)
    11. Hoosac Valley (8-8-2)
    12. Commerce (12-3-3)
    13. Putnam (9-7-2)

    1. Minnechaug (15-1-2)
    2. Chicopee Comp. (11-3-4)
    3. Pittsfield (12-1-5)
    4. Chicopee (13-2-3)
    5. Ludlow (8-5-5)
    6. East Longmeadow (9-6-3)
    7. Westfield (11-7-0)
    8. Agawam (7-5-6)
     
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