12 men on field RULE CHANGE

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    Re: 12 men on field RULE CHANGE

    In Response to Re: 12 men on field RULE CHANGE:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 12 men on field RULE CHANGE : What are you all not getting? If you intentionally put to many guys on the field that is a different penalty called Illegal Participation. That would have been a 15 yard penalty. The reason was only 5 yards and the time comes of the clock is that Tuck running of the field had zero affect on the play itself. It is not like they were rushing 5 guys and dropping 7 into coverage. The Patriots could still have completed the pass. Forget about the time that came of the clock. The Patriots gained five yards on the incomplete pass. That is the penalty! Stop trying to change the rules to help your team. That is what the Colts do!!!
    Posted by FrnkBnhm[/QUOTE]
    What you are not getting is that illegal participation is NEVER CALLED.... it is not a penalty that gets called just like spitting in front of a horse in Kansas is no longer a finable offense even though it is still on the books.   Early in the game the Pats got a 12 men on the field penalty also.... but I do not believe the guy was actually running off the field.... so why no ilegal participation penalty.
    YOU claim that the GIANTS got nothing from tuck... really?  ARE YOU SURE?  Are you sure the offensive play that was sent in wasn;t based on the defensive players that were projected to be on the field?  Are you sure it wasn't based on the RUSH.... and now that is not who is left on the fireld but rather there is an extra DB?..... HMMM.. sounds like EXACTLY the same reason they punish a team for 12 in the huddle.... Because teams do matchups.... so Obriewn looks out on the field sees tuck and JPP on the field.. OKAY it is a pressure defense- less DB's... sends in a package to play against that.... then one of the DL runs off the field leaving the extra DB..... seems like the saame thing to me.....  SO why did the clock run?  

    I personally agree that late in the game the play should be called PERIOD....  no time run down.... that is what they do if the Offense tries to trick the defense with too many men on the field....
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    Re: 12 men on field RULE CHANGE

    In Response to Re: 12 men on field RULE CHANGE:
    [QUOTE]In Response to 12 men on field RULE CHANGE : Suggest you read the rules. This is NOT a "dead ball" penalty. Play continues. But, for the sale of discussion, we'll play it out your way. Same game, same situation, Brady completes he pass and it's a go ahead TD. But, wait! Here comes the penalty flag. By rulwe, the score comes off the board, the ball is advanced 5 yards, the down stays the same, and the time is out back on teh clock. Sunday night, as this happens, go ahead and tell the world that this is the greatest call in the world, because that's what the rules call for. And Monday morning you're on this board telling everyone that the refs and the NFL FINALLY have it right, even when the Pats lose. As it is, it's a free play for the offense. As we saw with the the fumble that wasn't (it would have been over ruled via replay) that was mute because of the Patriot's own 12 men on the field penalty. If the Pat scored, they turn down teh penalty and keep the points. Your way, no possible score allowed, the time is put back on the clock, and the penalty is marched off. Your way, there is no possibility of scoring, when the D is caught off guard and confused. Which would you rather have: the points, or the time back on the clock and 5 more yards?
    Posted by AZPAT[/QUOTE]
    Actually AZPAT..... One team violated the rule..... therefore that one team should not gain from the rule....
    SO as I see it "IF" the play was allowed to continue.... because the refs had their heads up their tuccas and did not stop it before the snap.... then the offense ( WHO DID NOT VIOLATE A RULE) would have the optionof keeping theplay or taking back the ten seconds....  "IF the defense does not want to give the offense a choice of the two situations then they should NOT have extra players on the field".  I am sorry, but I see this as the same infraction as too many men in the huddle.... the OC sends his plays based on numerous things- one of which is the personnel on the defense.... WITH TUCK and JPP on the feild the assumption is a pressure defense so the play would be one thing..... when they take TUCK off the field at the last monet the assumption is more of a rush three and have the extra db on the field to protect..... MAJOR DIFFERENCE there.... and as such the defense got a huge advantage by taking tuck off the field at the last moment.... OH YEAH and it is not like TUCK is a rookie and made a dumb mistake..... YOU darn well know ( because of how late he left) that they scoped out what the pats were doing before a decision was made of whom to remove from the field..... and the DB stayed on.  SO they knew at that poinbt that they had the personnel on the field for either contingency, and when the pats came up to the line- the most expendable was tuck... he tried to run off.....  but this is EXACTLY the same thing that happens ( advantage-wise) as with a 12 men in the huddle....  HOWEVER, the GIANTs ( in this case) benefitted from it immensely.... the ONLY WAY to prevnt that tactic is to give the non-violating team their choice.... take the play or the penalty which includes time back on the clock.

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    Re: 12 men on field RULE CHANGE

    In Response to Re: 12 men on field RULE CHANGE:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 12 men on field RULE CHANGE : OK, we'll play this your way. 3rd and goal from the 8. Manning tosses a swing pass to his RB of the Week, who is all by himself, clear path to the end zone. The play if ruled dead, and it's now 3rd and goal from the 4. The rule is in place with two possible penalties on the defense: 1) the obvious 5 yards and the down stays the same  2) the offense takes advantage of the penalty and scores a TD or has a huge yardage gain. Why would you want to give up points or a big gain for a dead ball 5 yard penalty?
    Posted by AZPAT[/QUOTE]
    BECAUSE THE RULE ALLOWWED THE DEFENSE TO GAIN FROM THEIR TRANSGRESSION...... It needs to be changed.... just like they needed to have a 12 man in the huddle rule to prevent the offense from "Tricking" the defense.....   Either way.... IF the pats had come out with a run offense setup then the GIants would have run off the extra DB.... and been ready for the call.   SInce they came up with a Pass setup and the DB was of more benefit- a DL mosied off the field after seeing the pats at the line of scrimmage.... UNFAIR ADVANTAGE....   The penalty MUST prevent that from being a strategy.... the MOST the Giants could lose in the deal was 5 yards.... but they would get 10 seconds off the clock....  "IF" the play was successful then that was also the GIANST fault as they had a sneek peek at the Pats line and did not keep the correct player (of the two) in the game.....   Don't kid yourself.... The penalty did not fit the crime....  With 32 seconds left- I will give up 5 yards for 10 seconds of time, in almost every case ( assuming I am caught) and since I got to have my best allignment on the field for the play ( as I saw the offense line up)- I expect my team to thwart the offense one at lest 1/2 the plays this late in the game in such cramped quarters......

    IT WOULD REQUIRE A RULE CHANGE....  no one is saying what is gone by should be undone..... but I do not believe that the offending team should gain in any way.... PERIOD... and they did.

    Look many of you say that you cannot give them two things with one penalty.....   REALLY?....  Intentional Grounding.... Loss of down/time and field position.....