2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from neinmd. Show neinmd's posts

    2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    An article by Gregg Rosenthal in NFL.com picks the Patriots as one of the top 5 drafting teams in the league.

    http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000163276/article/ranking-the-5-nfl-teams-that-are-best-at-drafting


    I know there are strong feelings on this discussion board about this issue but facts are hard to refute. No question BB has whiffed on several 2nd rounders over the past few years but his overall success rate has been very good by any objective standard.


    Combine this with the best win-loss record in the league over the last decade plus, and it is hard to argue that BB isn't one of the best, maybe ever. I am sure there are some people (whose opinions I respect) who would argue against this and say that BB the coach makes up for the gaffes of BB the GM. But I think BB the GM is pretty darn good as well.


    Have at it.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from portfolio1. Show portfolio1's posts

    Re: 2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    It is interesting in light of not ONLY this article but of another separate, recent article I had mentioned recently that had performed a statistical analysis of years of drafts which calculated the Pats as either 5 or 6 in the league (I do not recall which) ....

    It is no surprise that anecdotal evidence often misses the mark when cold statistical analysis is applied. Cherry picking mistakes (and I will certainly admit there are enough mistakes to pick from) results in all sorts of misguided conclusions. Above all it misses the fact that everyone has plenty of misses and does not deliver a comparative, analytical approach with unemotional conclusions. BB has not been the best at drafting but he has actually done a very good job. Top 5 or 6 of 32 teams is clearly very good. Especially when it is translated into the record his teams have generated and the consistancy of their success.

    This does not eliminate valid criticisms - including mistakes in the draft - but it does put a truer perspective on it than some have suggested (and may continue to suggest).

     

    I think one really needs to analyze what a GM does in combination between draft and FA and trades as they are essentially related on multiple levels: positions/needs account for via one means may leave the GM to forgo trying to solve the same issue twice via a second or third means. The values are also exchanged via trades...

     

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxfan94. Show redsoxfan94's posts

    Re: 2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    cant wait to see how babe tries to spin this one

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: 2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    In response to neinmd's comment:

     

    An article by Gregg Rosenthal in NFL.com picks the Patriots as one of the top 5 drafting teams in the league.

    http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000163276/article/ranking-the-5-nfl-teams-that-are-best-at-drafting


    I know there are strong feelings on this discussion board about this issue but facts are hard to refute. No question BB has whiffed on several 2nd rounders over the past few years but his overall success rate has been very good by any objective standard.


    Combine this with the best win-loss record in the league over the last decade plus, and it is hard to argue that BB isn't one of the best, maybe ever. I am sure there are some people (whose opinions I respect) who would argue against this and say that BB the coach makes up for the gaffes of BB the GM. But I think BB the GM is pretty darn good as well.


    Have at it.

     



         Please repost the cite on this article. Is this the one you're referring to? http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000163276/article

     

         For openers, this article includes Logan Mankins as a pro-bowl/All Pro hit for the Pats, during the period from 2006-12. As we know, Mankins was drafted in 2005...so he doesn't belong in this discussion.

         Secondly, the article is misleading, as it counts guys djuring the 2006-12 period, who were either pro-bowlers, or All Pro. So, are guys were were both pro-bowlers and All Pro players counted twice?

         Finally, this refers to another article by a New Orleans' writer, who wrote on the Saints drafts, during this period. Yet, skimming through that article, I don't see where it mentions the Patriots at all, except to say that the Pats have had 66 draft picks over this time period, to just 42 for the Saints. Nowhere does it say in this article that the Patriots have drafted better than anyone else, as Rosenthal claims: http://blog.nola.com/saints_impact/print.html?entry=/2013/04/new_orleans_saints_draft_histo.html

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from MoreRings. Show MoreRings's posts

    Re: 2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    Good article, sheds some light.

     
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  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from MoreRings. Show MoreRings's posts

    Re: 2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    In response to THTM's comment:

    anyone who defends BB second rounds picks,has also mastubated and fell out of a tree several times.And then bought a tree farm to grow spaghetti.



    Lol

     
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  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from BostonTrollSpanker. Show BostonTrollSpanker's posts

    Re: 2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    You neglected to mention this part: " In reality, he suffered through a very rough stretch from '06-'09 before bouncing back in a major way lately."

    I agree. I think the 2006-2009 case is much harder to make. Have fun trying to make it. 

    "C'mon TP...dude writes an article, someone on this thread points it out...it is what it is...just let it stand on it's own.."

    If true this article undermines a great deal of what TP has been serving up in here so TP will go to great lengths to undermine the article. 

    Tell me, those who particularly enjoyed this article, does the fact that we are listed in the top five with the Ravens and the Giants, two teams that have had their way with us in big games in recent years, make you feel any better about that? Because it doesn't do that for me.

     

     
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  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: 2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    Not sure this reads like a ringing endorsement:

    I wasn't planning to include thePatriots because it feels like head coach Bill Belichick has lost his fastball at drafting in recent years. In reality, he suffered through a very rough stretch from '06-'09 before bouncing back in a major way lately.

    Furthermore, maybe the most interesting stat from the New Orleans article is that according to the author, the Pats 66 picks produced only 10 starters. Compare that with the Packers who got 18 starters with 64 picks or the Broncos with 17 starters in just 55 picks.     I think this just confirms my own feeling that BB is a good drafter (probably in the top 5 or 6), but not necessarily the best.  
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from pezz4pats. Show pezz4pats's posts

    Re: 2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    Not sure this reads like a ringing endorsement:

    I wasn't planning to include thePatriots because it feels like head coach Bill Belichick has lost his fastball at drafting in recent years. In reality, he suffered through a very rough stretch from '06-'09 before bouncing back in a major way lately.

    Furthermore, maybe the most interesting stat from the New Orleans article is that according to the author, the Pats 66 picks produced only 10 starters. Compare that with the Packers who got 18 starters with 64 picks or the Broncos with 17 starters in just 55 picks.     I think this just confirms my own feeling that BB is a good drafter (probably in the top 5 or 6), but not necessarily the best.  




    Well, using that metric, I'm not even sure you can say top 5 or 6.  It would be interesting to see where all teams land, but some how  BB's 15% doesn't fair well against Denver's 30% or the Packers 28%.  Not even close.  Also take into account that some of those starters were merriwhether and chung. :(

     

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from mia76. Show mia76's posts

    Re: 2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    It is interesting to see the number of first round picks that are looking for work this year as FAs that busted with at least one team already. 

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from pcmIV. Show pcmIV's posts

    Re: 2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    The starter metric in that article is a bit suspect.  It requires that a player be defined as a primary starter at his position for 2 seasons according to profootballreference.com 

    First of all it makes no sense to even include the 2012 draft then since they literally can't have started for 2 seasons.  But I'm not sure how pro football reference defines a starter.  For example they have Mesko and Hernandez as only starting one season each meaning neither are counted in this article.  And actually despite Pezz's sarcastic comment about Chung he isn't counted either.  

    Of course I find it amusing that the complaint against BB is that he hasn't drafted enough studs.  Now that the number of pro bowlers and all pros drafted undermines that a bit the exact same people are complaining about a lack of "starters" because it suits their agenda.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from mia76. Show mia76's posts

    Re: 2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    In response to TexasPat's comment:

    In response to neinmd's comment:

     



         Please repost the cite on this article. Is this the one you're referring to? http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000163276/article

     

         For openers, this article includes Logan Mankins as a pro-bowl/All Pro hit for the Pats, during the period from 2006-12. As we know, Mankins was drafted in 2005...so he doesn't belong in this discussion.

         Secondly, the article is misleading, as it counts guys djuring the 2006-12 period, who were either pro-bowlers, or All Pro. So, are guys were were both pro-bowlers and All Pro players counted twice?

         Finally, this refers to another article by a New Orleans' writer, who wrote on the Saints drafts, during this period. Yet, skimming through that article, I don't see where it mentions the Patriots at all, except to say that the Pats have had 66 draft picks over this time period, to just 42 for the Saints. Nowhere does it say in this article that the Patriots have drafted better than anyone else, as Rosenthal claims: http://blog.nola.com/saints_impact/print.html?entry=/2013/04/new_orleans_saints_draft_histo.html



    Helps if you actually do read and comprehend the article. Mankins is included in a separate paragraph listing successful picks still on the team with no reference to the separate analysis of the 2006-12 picks. This is also the paragraph that lists Samuel, Wilfork, Light, and Seymour (also pre 2006)

    And here is the link to the analysis of the 32 teams since you were unable to find it:

    http://www.nola.com/saints/index.ssf/2013/04/post_264.html

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from pezz4pats. Show pezz4pats's posts

    Re: 2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    In response to pcmIV's comment:

     

    The starter metric in that article is a bit suspect.  It requires that a player be defined as a primary starter at his position for 2 seasons according to profootballreference.com 

    First of all it makes no sense to even include the 2012 draft then since they literally can't have started for 2 seasons.  But I'm not sure how pro football reference defines a starter.  For example they have Mesko and Hernandez as only starting one season each meaning neither are counted in this article.  And actually despite Pezz's sarcastic comment about Chung he isn't counted either.  

    Of course I find it amusing that the complaint against BB is that he hasn't drafted enough studs.  Now the exact same people are complaining about a lack of "starters" because it suits their agenda.

     




    So who are the 10 starters and does that change the fact that 15% is a low number.

     

    As far as the pro-bowl goes, I have seen a good number of posters proclaim it's nothing more than a popularity contest.  Except when it supports THEIR Agenda, of course.

    EDIT:  Holy cow, I just saw the list and only the Rams are worse.  WOW!

    So you were saying?

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: 2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    I'm not sure the numbers in that article are correct.  I did a quick skim through a list of pro bowlers and it seemed to me that the Pats had more during that 2006-2012 period than reported. 

    Stats are nice, but only if they're accurate.  

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from pcmIV. Show pcmIV's posts

    Re: 2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    In response to pezz4pats' comment:

    So who are the 10 starters and does that change the fact that 15% is a low number.

     

    As far as the pro-bowl goes, I have seen a good number of posters proclaim it's nothing more than a popularity contest.  Except when it supports THEIR Agenda, of course.

    EDIT:  Holy cow, I just saw the list and only the Rams are worse.  WOW!

    So you were saying?



    I already told you the starter # is bs.  You get credit for drafting players who started for other teams and no credit for players that pro football reference has incorrectly decided wasn't a starter (Mesko, Hernandez etc.).  Obsess over the 10 number all you like.  I guess you think the Giants suck at drafting too since they got a 10 as well.  Oh wait I thought everyone complains about how we lost SBs because the Giants drafted better.

    Pro bowl's might be influenced by popularity, but all-pro teams do not lie and the Pats rank highly there.  They rank highly there despite the fact that this analysis specifically covers most of BB's weakest drafting period.  Other GMs have had weak drafts as well that weren't covered.  So let's recap.  Even when you cherry pick a time frame that is mostly made up of his worst drafts BB has drafted as many all pros as anyone in the NFL.  Yeah that guy really sucks and should be fired.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from pezz4pats. Show pezz4pats's posts

    Re: 2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    I'm not sure the numbers in that article are correct.  I did a quick skim through a list of pro bowlers and it seemed to me that the Pats had more during that 2006-2012 period than reported. 

    Stats are nice, but only if they're accurate.  




    I think it is referring to players drafted since 2006.  So it is correct.

     
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  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from pezz4pats. Show pezz4pats's posts

    Re: 2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    In response to pcmIV's comment:

    In response to pezz4pats' comment:

     

    So who are the 10 starters and does that change the fact that 15% is a low number.

     

    As far as the pro-bowl goes, I have seen a good number of posters proclaim it's nothing more than a popularity contest.  Except when it supports THEIR Agenda, of course.

    EDIT:  Holy cow, I just saw the list and only the Rams are worse.  WOW!

    So you were saying?

     



    I already told you the starter # is bs.  You get credit for drafting players who started for other teams and no credit for players that pro football reference has incorrectly decided wasn't a starter (Mesko, Hernandez etc.).  Obsess over the 10 number all you like.  I guess you think the Giants suck at drafting too since they got a 10 as well.  Oh wait I thought everyone complains about how we lost SBs because the Giants drafted better.

     

    Pro bowl's might be influenced by popularity, but all-pro teams do not lie and the Pats rank highly there.  They rank highly there despite the fact that this analysis specifically covers most of BB's weakest drafting period.  Other GMs have had weak drafts as well that weren't covered.  So let's recap.  Even when you cherry pick a time frame that is mostly made up of his worst drafts BB has drafted as many all pros as anyone in the NFL.  Yeah that guy really sucks and should be fired.




    The gints had 10 with less picks which gives them a better %.  Cowboys too!

    Is the starter # BS for all 32 teams or just the Pats because it appears all are evaluated the same way.  I guess to some, everything that doesn't paint BB is a positive light is BS, right?

    And puleasse?  How do you say stats that evaluate all teams over the past 6 years are cherry picking?  I'm sure the research was done that way purposely because BB had a terrible 4 years.  YUP, that's gotta be it.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattC05. Show MattC05's posts

    Re: 2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    Wow TP, you are really twisting yourself into pretzels to find fault in this article.  Every single one of your points is dead, factually wrong.

    " For openers, this article includes Logan Mankins as a pro-bowl/All Pro hit for the Pats, during the period from 2006-12." - No it does not.  It mentions Mankins, but does not say, nor even imply, that he is one of the 5 Pro Bowl / All Pros for the '06-'12 seasons.  For the record, these are those 5 players:

    - Brandon Meriweather (2x Pro Bowler)

    - Jerod Mayo (2x Pro Bowler, 1x All Pro)

    - Matthew Slater (2x Pro Bowler, 2x All Pro)

    - Devin McCourty (1x Pro Bowler)

    - Rob Gronkowski (2x Pro Bowler, 1x All Pro)

    And 2 more that I don't think were counted:

    - Stephen Gostkowski (1x Pro Bowl / 1x All Pro, don't think he was counted)

    - Sebastian Vollmer (2x second team All Pro, don't think he was counted)

    " Secondly, the article is misleading, as it counts guys djuring the 2006-12 period, who were either pro-bowlers, or All Pro. So, are guys were were both pro-bowlers and All Pro players counted twice?" - Yes, as they should be.  Someone who is an All Pro is at a level above a simple Pro Bowler.  He should count twice as much if you're trying to determine "elite" drafting.


    " Finally, this refers to another article by a New Orleans' writer, who wrote on the Saints drafts, during this period." - He actually links to the raw data that accompanies the article you mention, not the article itself: http://www.nola.com/saints/index.ssf/2013/04/post_264.html

    "Nowhere does it say in this article that the Patriots have drafted better than anyone else, as Rosenthal claims" - Rosenthal does not make that claim.  Rosenthal say "Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots. That's since 2006. (The New Orleans Saints and Denver Broncos also drafted five Pro Bowl players, but the Patriots had an extra All-Pro.)"  This statement is accurate.

     
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