2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from pezz4pats. Show pezz4pats's posts

    Re: 2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    The devastation of the BBWs continues. These facts make them squirm and crap themselves simultaneously. lol

    You are correct!  The fact that BB has the 2nd lowest % of starters in the past 6 years (only to be out done by the RAMS), has to be devastating to the BBBW's.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from newenglanderinexile. Show newenglanderinexile's posts

    Re: 2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    In response to pezz4pats' comment:

    The devastation of the BBWs continues. These facts make them squirm and crap themselves simultaneously. lol

    You are correct!  The fact that BB has the 2nd lowest % of starters in the past 6 years (only to be out done by the RAMS), has to be devastating to the BBBW's.




    For many years I thought, mistakenly, that the main objective of NFL coaches was to win games.  Thanks to this thread, I now know that it is to win drafts. 

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from neinmd. Show neinmd's posts

    Re: 2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    In response to newenglanderinexile's comment:

    In response to pezz4pats' comment:

     

    The devastation of the BBWs continues. These facts make them squirm and crap themselves simultaneously. lol

    You are correct!  The fact that BB has the 2nd lowest % of starters in the past 6 years (only to be out done by the RAMS), has to be devastating to the BBBW's.

     




    For many years I thought, mistakenly, that the main objective of NFL coaches was to win games.  Thanks to this thread, I now know that it is to win drafts. 

     




    I posted this on another thread but since you brought this subject up, the following table lists win-loss percentage by teams over the 2002-2012 decade. So the Pats are good at drafting and they win more games than anyone else in the league. Maybe there is a bit of a correlation as well.

    • 1. New England Patriots (0.767)
    • 2. Indianapolis Colts (0.6932)
    • 3. Pittsburgh Steelers (0.6449)
    • 4. Green Bay Packers (0.6250)
    • 5. Baltimore Ravens (0.5909)
    • 6. Philadelphia Eagles (0.5881)
    • 7. San Diego Chargers (0.5852)
    • 8. Atlanta Falcons (0.571)
    • 9. Denver Broncos (0.5625)
    • 10. New York Giants (0.5511)
    • 10. New Orleans Saints (0.5511)
    • 12. Dallas Cowboys (0.5341)
    • 13. Chicago Bears (0.5227)
    • 13. Tennessee Titans (0.5227)
    • 13. Seattle Seahawks (0.5227)
    • 16. Minnesota Vikings (0.4943)
    • 17. New York Jets (0.4886)
    • 17. Carolina Panthers (0.4886)
    • 19. Cincinnati Bengals (0.4631)
    • 20. Tampa Bay Buccaneers (0.4602)
    • 21. San Francisco 49ers (0.4574)
    • 22. Jacksonville Jaguars (0.4432)
    • 23. Miami Dolphins (0.4375)
    • 23. Houston Texans (0.4375)
    • 25. Kansas City Chiefs (0.4318)
    • 26. Washington Redskins (0.4261)
    • 27. Buffalo Bills (0.4034)
    • 28. Arizona Cardinals (0.3977)
    • 29. St. Louis Rams (0.3608)
    • 30. Cleveland Browns (0.3466)
    • 31. Oakland Raiders (0.3409)
    • 32. Detroit Lions (0.2898)
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: 2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    I would also add that over the past 15 years no other team has won as many SBs (3) or appeared in as many SBs (5) as the Pats.  Since BB's arrival the longest period of elapsed time between SB appearances is 3 years ('08-'10).

    All the factual data on the planet will not matter, however.  There are those who will always consider BB a mediocre drafter and an OK GM and those who will think he is quite good at both.

     
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  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: 2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    In response to alfred-e-bob-neumier's comment:

     

    C'mon TP...dude writes an article, someone on this thread points it out...it is what it is...just let it stand on it's own...  :}

         RESPONSE: This article is both incorrect and misleading, as I pointed out previously. But...you homers go right on thinking that BB is the greatest GM if you wish...while the team crumbles under the weight of the fodder of his wasted high draft choices, over the years.

     




     

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: 2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    In response to pezz4pats' comment:

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    I'm not sure the numbers in that article are correct.  I did a quick skim through a list of pro bowlers and it seemed to me that the Pats had more during that 2006-2012 period than reported. 

    Stats are nice, but only if they're accurate.  

     




    I think it is referring to players drafted since 2006.  So it is correct.

     



    Yeah, but if Wikipedia is correct, the Pats' pro bowl players by draft over this period are:

    2010: McCourty, Gronk, Hernandez

    2008: Mayo, Slater

    2007: Merriweather

    2006: Gostkowski

     

    That's seven, but the article says five. 

    I don't think these statistics are very reliable, so they prove nothing, one way or the other. 

    I would love to see some accurate, well designed statistical analysis of draft success over the past decade or so, but in the absence of that, I'd say that Rosenthal's judgment that BB is near the top, but not necessarily better than guys like Ozzie Newsome, is pretty fair.  

    Let's face it, we've got one or two posters on here who are prone to hyperbolic statements about Belichick's unmatched greatness as a GM.  I think a more balanced assessment puts Belichick near the top, but not head and shoulders above a handful of other good GMs. Belichick does a good job of managing the cap, preserving his flexibility, and finding complementary players.  At the same time, he's had enough busts in the mid rounds to prevent me from saying it's clear that he's the absolute best of all time.  The number of busts in the mid rounds also calls into question to some degree the success of his strategy of frequently trading down to maximize picks.

    The "value" strategy (trading down in the draft to get more picks, avoiding expensive players in free agency or, prior to the rookie cap, at the top of the draft) does increase your flexibiilty to continually change your team, which I believe is actually a huge reason for Belichick's success.  His skill is in finding complementary combinations of players, and that requires the ability to move guys in and out without being constrained too much by the cap or by limited numbers of picks. The Pats also have tended to have low draft picks anyway because of their high finishing position every season, so trying to move up in the draft and get the best players would be very difficult for them, making a value strategy far more attractive to the Pats than the opposite strategy. At the same time, the value strategy does limit the ability to add All-Pro quality players to your team, since most of those guys are high draft picks or expensive free agents.  You can overcome that disadvantage by picking exceptionally well in the mid and lower rounds . . . but that's where it's hard to say Belichick has had that much more success than anyone else.  Sure, he's had some big wins (mostly by picking players who were falling in the draft because of injury or off-field problems or were overlooked for other reasons) but he's also had a lot of misses.  Overall, I think Belichick has done well (which is why I put him near the top) but when I look at all the picks that didn't pan out, I just can't say I'm convinced he's clearly the best ever or even the best right now.  

     

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: 2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    In response to BostonTrollSpanker's comment:

    You neglected to mention this part: " In reality, he suffered through a very rough stretch from '06-'09 before bouncing back in a major way lately."

    I agree. I think the 2006-2009 case is much harder to make. Have fun trying to make it. 

    "C'mon TP...dude writes an article, someone on this thread points it out...it is what it is...just let it stand on it's own.."

    If true this article undermines a great deal of what TP has been serving up in here so TP will go to great lengths to undermine the article. 

    RESPONSE: Even if true...which it isn't, this article has does nothing to ease my criticisms of BB. I challenge any of you to look back at the drafts from 2006-12...especially at the first, second, and third rounders taken. From 2006-09, BB was a disaster. Overall, BB has had 66 draft selections during this period...with 15 hits. That comes out to a .223 batting average. Not good.   

    Tell me, those who particularly enjoyed this article, does the fact that we are listed in the top five with the Ravens and the Giants, two teams that have had their way with us in big games in recent years, make you feel any better about that? Because it doesn't do that for me.

    RESPONSE: Why doesn't it make you feel better? Because you realize that the Patriots have fallen a notch behind the elite teams...with their lack of talent on defense in particular, getting exposed each year in the play-offs. The greatness of BB the coach and Tom Brady can camoflague the warts during the regular season. But in the play-offs, the Pats lack of talent catches up with them...and the talent deficiency can be traced back to all the BB misses in past drafts.   

     




     
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  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: 2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    In response to jri37's comment:

    In response to TexasPat's comment:

     

    In response to BostonTrollSpanker's comment:

     

    You neglected to mention this part: " In reality, he suffered through a very rough stretch from '06-'09 before bouncing back in a major way lately."

    I agree. I think the 2006-2009 case is much harder to make. Have fun trying to make it. 

    "C'mon TP...dude writes an article, someone on this thread points it out...it is what it is...just let it stand on it's own.."

    If true this article undermines a great deal of what TP has been serving up in here so TP will go to great lengths to undermine the article. 

    RESPONSE: Even if true...which it isn't, this article has does nothing to ease my criticisms of BB. I challenge any of you to look back at the drafts from 2006-12...especially at the first, second, and third rounders taken. From 2006-09, BB was a disaster. Overall, BB has had 66 draft selections during this period...with 15 hits. That comes out to a .223 batting average. Not good.   

    Tell me, those who particularly enjoyed this article, does the fact that we are listed in the top five with the Ravens and the Giants, two teams that have had their way with us in big games in recent years, make you feel any better about that? Because it doesn't do that for me.

    RESPONSE: Why doesn't it make you feel better? Because you realize that the Patriots have fallen a notch behind the elite teams...with their lack of talent on defense in particular, getting exposed each year in the play-offs. The greatness of BB the coach and Tom Brady can camoflague the warts during the regular season. But in the play-offs, the Pats lack of talent catches up with them...and the talent deficiency can be traced back to all the BB misses in past drafts.   

     




     

     




     

    So who are the elite teams and does going to the AFCCG  not qualify a team for being elite? I have heard from other posters on this board (i am not saying it was you) what a tremndous accomplishment this was when the jets did it and how great a team they were even though they lost both times.

     

    Bottom line is the Pat's were  a couple of plays from having wom 5 SB's in 12 years and yet the orginization gets criticized like they are the Cleveland browns.



         The bottom line is that the Pats are not beating the better teams in the play-offs. Oh...they'll win the first round games...but when the true heavyweights square off against them, they come up short...even when playing at home.

         Does anyone here really think that the Pats have gained enough on Denver, Baltimore, and San Francisco in this off-season to surpass them?

     

     
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  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from pezz4pats. Show pezz4pats's posts

    Re: 2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    In response to newenglanderinexile's comment:

    In response to pezz4pats' comment:

     

    The devastation of the BBWs continues. These facts make them squirm and crap themselves simultaneously. lol

    You are correct!  The fact that BB has the 2nd lowest % of starters in the past 6 years (only to be out done by the RAMS), has to be devastating to the BBBW's.

     




    For many years I thought, mistakenly, that the main objective of NFL coaches was to win games.  Thanks to this thread, I now know that it is to win drafts. 

     




    Ya, there's no denying the RS wins are great but it's also not a complete picture.

    Look at the L's. Other than a few uncharacteristic clunkers, you have RS losses to the Steelers, Giants, Ravens, Jets, 49'rs, Seahacks.

    They kind of tell a different story.

    If they didn't split with the Jest in 10, they would have been eliminated from the PO's.

    If they would have beaten the Gints in 11, they would have been eliminated from the play-offs.

    If they had beaten the Ravens in the RS last year, they would have been eliminated from the play-offs.

    Talk about predicting the outcome.

    So, go ahead and ignore the 15% draft hits if you please but there is a reason the Pats are 1-2 players away (as some contend).  It's difficult to get those 2 players if you are only getting 10 starters in 6 years and 66 picks, especially when other Play-off teams are nearly doubling that amount.  It's bound to catch up to you!

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from rtuinila. Show rtuinila's posts

    Re: 2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    Could it be that teams that drafted more starters over the period stated didn't draft as well and had to replace underperforming starters more often then the Pats had to? No, that can't be it, can it trolls

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from pezz4pats. Show pezz4pats's posts

    Re: 2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    In response to rtuinila's comment:

     

    Could it be that teams that drafted more starters over the period stated didn't draft as well and had to replace underperforming starters more often then the Pats had to? No, that can't be it, can it trolls

     




    So all teams but the Rams had to replace more under performing starters?

     

    Sorry, that does not compute.

    Look back!  The Pats have been trying to replace a handful of starters for years and have been missing on those same guys over and over and over. Hopefully that ends this year.

    Not saying they have to replace pro bowlers with pro bowlers, but some WR's and safeties and CB's that even make it through their rookie contracts would be nice.

    Don't you think?

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: 2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    This article is just another that proves what we already knew.  There are a bunch of spoiled, entitled fans here who can't get it through their thick skulls that the draft is a crapshoot and if you hit on even a reasonable percentage of your picks you're doing very good, the "fastball" analogy was fitting but the guy making the picks is a hitter not a pitcher.

    I love the gloom and doom crowd squirming around trying to put a spin on this.  Posters here have compiled and started threads with the same FACTUAL DATA but people see what they want to see.  Gee if BB is bad at free agency and bad at drafting how is it we keep winning?

    I might add what nobody here seems to mention that the Patriots as the winningest team always choose from the bottom of the draft.

    In Short if you think BB is a bad GM you're a complete door knob...

     
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  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: 2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    Also consider how many extra picks our GM has found for us, that should count for something right?!  Jackholes...

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: 2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    In response to TexasPat's comment:

     

         Does anyone here really think that the Pats have gained enough on Denver, Baltimore, and San Francisco in this off-season to surpass them? 



    I'll say it:  they've gained enough to be competitive with them.  

    I'd also be interested in your thoughts on  the Pats 5 appearances in the SB and 3 SB wins - more than any other team in the past 15 years.  In the last two seasons they went to the AFCCG and the SB - so in what sense are they not competitive?  

    Oh, before you start I'll say it for you:  Yes, I am indeed an HH.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: 2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    Not sure this reads like a ringing endorsement:

    I wasn't planning to include thePatriots because it feels like head coach Bill Belichick has lost his fastball at drafting in recent years. In reality, he suffered through a very rough stretch from '06-'09 before bouncing back in a major way lately.

    Furthermore, maybe the most interesting stat from the New Orleans article is that according to the author, the Pats 66 picks produced only 10 starters. Compare that with the Packers who got 18 starters with 64 picks or the Broncos with 17 starters in just 55 picks.     I think this just confirms my own feeling that BB is a good drafter (probably in the top 5 or 6), but not necessarily the best.  



    Does anybody agree with the premise that it's more difficult to field starters when you already have a team that wins more then any other? Or when you have more draft picks then most teams over the course of a decade due to your brilliance of acquiring more picks.

    Perhaps I do not explain my point well enough but take this year for example. We are coming off a SB and afc championship appearance. We are returning 22 of 24 starters from last years team. We are 1 of the youngest teams in the LG. how many starters can we expect to have drafted this year? Or in years past with similar situations? Other teams that do not have the luxury of  BB building their teams have gone through losing seasons...ALL OF THEM. It is more difficult for a player to shine in our system when you already have a 13-3 team every year. 

     

     

     

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: 2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    In response to pezz4pats' comment:

    The devastation of the BBWs continues. These facts make them squirm and crap themselves simultaneously. lol

    You are correct!  The fact that BB has the 2nd lowest % of starters in the past 6 years (only to be out done by the RAMS), has to be devastating to the BBBW's.



    SUch a terrible premise. How many new starters can you draft in 2008 you your team just went 18-1? Same situation over the course of the last decade. We pick in the bottom of every round and we win more games then any other team. where is the room to fit in all of these "starters" you are whining about?

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: 2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    In response to newenglanderinexile's comment:

    In response to pezz4pats' comment:

     

    The devastation of the BBWs continues. These facts make them squirm and crap themselves simultaneously. lol

    You are correct!  The fact that BB has the 2nd lowest % of starters in the past 6 years (only to be out done by the RAMS), has to be devastating to the BBBW's.

     




    For many years I thought, mistakenly, that the main objective of NFL coaches was to win games.  Thanks to this thread, I now know that it is to win drafts. 

     



    Lol, well done exile....

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: 2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:

     

    We are coming off a SB and afc championship appearance. We are returning 22 of 24 starters from last years team. We are 1 of the youngest teams in the LG. how many starters can we expect to have drafted this year? Or in years past with similar situations? Other teams that do not have the luxury of  BB building their teams have gone through losing seasons...ALL OF THEM. It is more difficult for a player to shine in our system when you already have a 13-3 team every year. 

     

     

     

    Good point, the cruddy teams have room for rookies to shine because they've got more holes than a body piercing convention.  Maybe if we had the luxury to pick in the top ten every year we would win some of Mel Kiper's ratings wars?  The Vikings had three #1 picks this year, won the draft hands down according to the "experts," let me make a bold prediction and say they'll still blow. 

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: 2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    Probably time for these guys to bury this thread.....

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Salcon. Show Salcon's posts

    Re: 2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    Without mentioning names I think there are certain posters here that I can't  believe are truly Pats fans. 

    Oh,  I know there are plenty of Brady and Belichick fans but fans of the team?  I'm not so sure.

    These folks are just so negative about everything that the team does I can't see why they haven't found another to root for instead.

     

     
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