2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

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  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: 2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

     

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

     

     

     

    Also, please source where Kraft called him a "putz".  Bill Belichick has made Kraft millions by drafting Brady and being the best coach and GM. Far from a "putz", Diapers.

     

     


    Actually he called him a "schmuk", you schmuk.

     

     




    Ahh. So now you are changing what you said. Can you source it, Diapers?  Becase that's what big boys do as a way of proving something.

     

     




    Not only are you a complete wackjob, but apparently lazy to boot.

     

    http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000092652/article/why-robert-kraft-called-bill-belichick-a-schmuck

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: 2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

     

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

     

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

     

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

     

     

    As far as Kraft calling him a name, the fact is, the Krafts, BB, Brady, etc, they have no idea about some franchises hidden intense jealousy for what they have earned or continue to do.

     

     

     


    Oh, but you do? LMFAO@U Get help mental case.

     



    Umm, yes. I do. 

     

     



    If only Kraft and BB understood the NFL like you do nutjob, boy oh boy they would be so much better of. What a putz you are.

     




    Way to edit the rest of my post which completely exposes you. lmao

     

    What's for dessert tonight at the manor, Diapers?  Fruit cup? Pudding?  What's on the Hallmark station?

     




    Chalk up another body slam of the village imbecile by the Babe today. I never get tired of making you look like the fool you are.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: 2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

     

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

     

     

     

    Also, please source where Kraft called him a "putz".  Bill Belichick has made Kraft millions by drafting Brady and being the best coach and GM. Far from a "putz", Diapers.

     

     


    Actually he called him a "schmuk", you schmuk.

     

     




    Ahh. So now you are changing what you said.

     

     



    Oh dear, you caught me red handed there einstein. I used putz instead of schmuk. Another conspiracy theory proven by you! Twit.

     
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  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from pezz4pats. Show pezz4pats's posts

    Re: 2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

    In response to TripleOG's comment:

     

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:

     

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    Not sure this reads like a ringing endorsement:

    I wasn't planning to include thePatriots because it feels like head coach Bill Belichick has lost his fastball at drafting in recent years. In reality, he suffered through a very rough stretch from '06-'09 before bouncing back in a major way lately.

    Furthermore, maybe the most interesting stat from the New Orleans article is that according to the author, the Pats 66 picks produced only 10 starters. Compare that with the Packers who got 18 starters with 64 picks or the Broncos with 17 starters in just 55 picks.     I think this just confirms my own feeling that BB is a good drafter (probably in the top 5 or 6), but not necessarily the best.  



    Does anybody agree with the premise that it's more difficult to field starters when you already have a team that wins more then any other? Or when you have more draft picks then most teams over the course of a decade due to your brilliance of acquiring more picks.

     

    Perhaps I do not explain my point well enough but take this year for example. We are coming off a SB and afc championship appearance. We are returning 22 of 24 starters from last years team. We are 1 of the youngest teams in the LG. how many starters can we expect to have drafted this year? Or in years past with similar situations? Other teams that do not have the luxury of  BB building their teams have gone through losing seasons...ALL OF THEM. It is more difficult for a player to shine in our system when you already have a 13-3 team every year. 

     

     

     

     



    My answer to this would be. A lot of feel the current starters could and should be upgraded. Some of the guys on are team I would not miss. This is about Balance. Weve been unbalanced for years. Offense jumping out to big leads and the defense allowing teams to storm back. IN hindsight, the 2007 offense should never have been assembled unless there was a very formidable pass rush in place. The fact that fans are still wanting more pressure in 2013 is a Joke! Take Indy for example. Also had a greta Qb and great offense that mostly got up on teams quick. The difference is, they had the 2 dynamic pass rushers to combat teams throwing there way back into the game. This is what pezz talks about when he sais we cant move to a ball control offense cuz we dont have a ball control defense. They dont produce enough 3 and outs to just run the ball. They also dont rush the passer enough to keep cheap QBs from storming back. The Defense is just there. They do a lot of things well, but arent great at anything. Its a joke that BB just drafted his 1st real pass rusher last year. U need Rushers, if you are gonna go up 21-0. You have to stop the pass and we are always close to last lately...smh

     

     




     

    We've been imbalanced?  Due to whom?  Tom Brady! 

    We weren't imbalanced AT ALL in 2010 when BB dealt Moss off and promoted BJGE!  Nope, no we weren't.

    2011 we were imbalanced because Brady refused to use the X position, staring down Branch, Gronk or Hernandez to the strong side of the field. Then, he'd literally throw balls into double or triple coverage, with his highest INT rate of his career through November.

    Just who is making it imbalanced?  Brady just couldn't hand it off those 3 or 4 more times to help us win the game, could he? He had to audible into a shotgun, right?  Just had to point at who the Mike is, run the clock down and then throw an incomplete pass to stop the clock again, right?

    I warned you many times it wasn't Ochocinco, Lloyd, or whoever else you want to blame.  BB isn't bringing all this new blood at WR by accident.   He didn't walk from Welkie by accident, Shizzles.

    Wake up.

    BB is making sure Brady can't make us imbalanced because Welkie is gone. We will be running more in those games we need to run more.  And, Brady will need to develop a chemistry with Boyce, Dobson, Amendola, maybe Donald Jones or Jenkins.

    BB is putting the onus back on Brady and I love it. No more excuses for Tommy Boy.

    And your buddy Pezzy is wrong about our lack of ball control on D. We had a ball control D in 2010 after Moss was dealt!  I can name literally 6 games past Week 4 where our D created turnovers, had goal line stands, etc, to change momentum, including lower scoring games where WE PREVAILED. And it wasn't because Brady threw 4 TDs either.

    @ SD

    @ Miami

    vs Baltimore (OT)

    vs Minny (favre and Adrian Peterson)

    vs Indy (high scoring COlts with Manning)

    Shall I keep going? IN all of these games our offense SUCKED and our D battled, kep the score down alll game long, waiting on our offense to kick into gear.

    Christ, our D in December that year was THE BEST IN THE NFL.  THE BEST!  Least amount of points allowed, scoring TDs, popping balls loose left and right in blizzards, etc. They did everything.

    And guess what? We never lost when BJGE was leaned on and used as our lead back!

    More truths that hurt, huh Shizzles?

    JUst think, on the second drive and beyond in SB 46, if BJGE is used with more runs vs shotguns, we win the SB. 

    Every time you and your little buddies look to deflect from Brady in these threads about how great BB has been as a GM, I will remind you and others of these facts and realities.

    Even your premise is wrong!!  Ugh!

    "offense jumps out to big leads"

    When??!!  When does this happen????!!!  Our offense has SUCKED in games against good Ds.  Sucked!

    Shotgun spreads, hurry ups, INTs, stalled drives, FGs, poor clock management, poor field position due to 3 and outs over and over!

    Sucked!

    How about just run the ball with two TEs blocking? How about playaction? How about an I Formation?  

     

     




    This is imbalance you fool

    3rd ranked O and 25th ranked D

    2nd ranked O and 31st ranked D, 25th ST

    1st ranked O and 27th ranked D..  27th ST

    That is the very definition of imbalance!!!

    OFFENSES CAN'T WIN IT ON THEIR OWN!  Especially when they lead the league in DROPS!

    And no! it's not a matter of not having positions open (regardless of their record)

    They ALWAYS need starters!  Which  drafted DB has even lasted through his rookie contract in the past 6 years.  Which receivers?  How about pass rush?  Nope, there's no needs there.  Pulease.  Failed with Wilhite, Wheatly, result REPLACED.  Failed with Chung, Result REPLACED.  Failed with Meriwether, Result REPLACED! Failed with every WR, result,  Replaced,  Failed with Maroney REPLACED!  Cripes, they've got 5-6 guys on the team who were good enough to extend their rookie contracts!!!!!!  That leaves 16 other starters Replaced and replaced and replaced again in the past 6 years.  Plenty of needs!  And always room for improvement!

    Especially when you are replacing the SAME positions and guys 2-3  times over 6 years and we've only gotten 10.   And some of those wouldn't even start on another team.   Pfft

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: 2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:

    Probably time for these guys to bury this thread.....



    I want to thank Rusty for reviving a thread that was over with on page two. This thread was finished, point made, but Rusty's insistence to perpetuate the garbage keeps it alive and waters down the message... good job Rusty, way to milk a thread.

     
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  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: 2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

     

    I knew he called him a shmuuck (no idea why this word is banned here). I wanted you to correct yourself and post a link to show how wrong you were. lol

    It worked. lmao

    See, you state lies here constantly, and no one can stand your agenda here.

     



    Who do you think you're kidding weirdo? It worked? LMAO@U

    You are world class pathetic.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: 2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

    In response to wozzy's comment:

     

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:

     

    Probably time for these guys to bury this thread.....

     



    I want to thank Rusty for reviving a thread that was over withon page two. This thread was finished, point made, but Rusty's insistence to perpetuate the garbage keeps it alive and waters down the message... good job Rusty, way to milk a thread.

     

     



    You're quite the annoying little tool tonight, aren't you?

     




    He is a tiny iota of a fraction of the problem you are around here nutjob. He's actually a good Pats' fan. I may disagree with him on a few key things, but I can appreciate his loyalty to the team. You on the other hand are wretched piece of #%$^.

     

     

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: 2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:



    Umm, I am pretty sure you have never slammed me EVER in a debate, Diapers.

     

     



    Day in and day out fool. I own you because you are an imbecile. It's actually easy.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: 2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

     

    See, you state lies here constantly, and no one can stand your agenda here.

     



    You think my saying it was "putz" when it was actually "schmuk" is a"lie"?

    Why that's as egregious as saying "dumb" when the actual word was "stupid".

    Get help..... you twisted %#@&.

     

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: 2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:

     

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    Not sure this reads like a ringing endorsement:

    I wasn't planning to include thePatriots because it feels like head coach Bill Belichick has lost his fastball at drafting in recent years. In reality, he suffered through a very rough stretch from '06-'09 before bouncing back in a major way lately.

    Furthermore, maybe the most interesting stat from the New Orleans article is that according to the author, the Pats 66 picks produced only 10 starters. Compare that with the Packers who got 18 starters with 64 picks or the Broncos with 17 starters in just 55 picks.     I think this just confirms my own feeling that BB is a good drafter (probably in the top 5 or 6), but not necessarily the best.  



    Does anybody agree with the premise that it's more difficult to field starters when you already have a team that wins more then any other? Or when you have more draft picks then most teams over the course of a decade due to your brilliance of acquiring more picks.

     

    Perhaps I do not explain my point well enough but take this year for example. We are coming off a SB and afc championship appearance. We are returning 22 of 24 starters from last years team. We are 1 of the youngest teams in the LG. how many starters can we expect to have drafted this year? Or in years past with similar situations? Other teams that do not have the luxury of  BB building their teams have gone through losing seasons...ALL OF THEM. It is more difficult for a player to shine in our system when you already have a 13-3 team every year. 

     

     

     

     



    This argument would be easier to make if the Pats weren't starting drafted guys like Darius Butler and Deion Branch and a lot of guys they didn't draft like BJGE and Danny Woodhead. These are very replaceable players.

     

     



    Perfect example of fans being spoiled. You would complain about woody and BJGE who were very effective in their roles because they weren't drafted? Deion Branch in 2010 and 2011 caught 99 balls for 1400 yards and 10 tds as a 4rth option... He wore down at the end of 2011 so we upgraded him with another solid addition of Lloyd last year. That's a problem???

    Team building doesn't mean you can have 1st round talent at every position. It doesn't mean all of your draft picks work out, and when you win more then anybody else and accumulate draft picks more then anybody else, then you don't have room on the roster for all these guys to stick.

    It is a great problem to have when you bring in 2nd and 3rd rd picks and give them a 2 year audition only to cut them if they don't overwhelm. Or perhaps you are of the Texas Pat camp and believe that we would have won one of these SB's if we had drafted a player higher up on Mel kippers draft board...I believe that if our team was good enough to get to the SB they were good enough to win it. No talent deficiency in Foxboro. BB has built a contender for  a long long time, and I am thankful for that.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Salcon. Show Salcon's posts

    Re: 2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:

     

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    Not sure this reads like a ringing endorsement:

    I wasn't planning to include thePatriots because it feels like head coach Bill Belichick has lost his fastball at drafting in recent years. In reality, he suffered through a very rough stretch from '06-'09 before bouncing back in a major way lately.

    Furthermore, maybe the most interesting stat from the New Orleans article is that according to the author, the Pats 66 picks produced only 10 starters. Compare that with the Packers who got 18 starters with 64 picks or the Broncos with 17 starters in just 55 picks.     I think this just confirms my own feeling that BB is a good drafter (probably in the top 5 or 6), but not necessarily the best.  



    Does anybody agree with the premise that it's more difficult to field starters when you already have a team that wins more then any other? Or when you have more draft picks then most teams over the course of a decade due to your brilliance of acquiring more picks.

     

    Perhaps I do not explain my point well enough but take this year for example. We are coming off a SB and afc championship appearance. We are returning 22 of 24 starters from last years team. We are 1 of the youngest teams in the LG. how many starters can we expect to have drafted this year? Or in years past with similar situations? Other teams that do not have the luxury of  BB building their teams have gone through losing seasons...ALL OF THEM. It is more difficult for a player to shine in our system when you already have a 13-3 team every year. 

     

     

     

     



    This argument would be easier to make if the Pats weren't starting drafted guys like Darius Butler and Deion Branch and a lot of guys they didn't draft like BJGE and Danny Woodhead. These are very replaceable players.

     

     

     



    Perfect example of fans being spoiled. You would complain about woody and BJGE who were very effective in their roles because they weren't drafted? Deion Branch in 2010 and 2011 caught 99 balls for 1400 yards and 10 tds as a 4rth option... He wore down at the end of 2011 so we upgraded him with another solid addition of Lloyd last year. That's a problem???

     

    Team building doesn't mean you can have 1st round talent at every position. It doesn't mean all of your draft picks work out, and when you win more then anybody else and accumulate draft picks more then anybody else, then you don't have room on the roster for all these guys to stick.

    It is a great problem to have when you bring in 2nd and 3rd rd picks and give them a 2 year audition only to cut them if they don't overwhelm. Or perhaps you are of the Texas Pat camp and believe that we would have won one of these SB's if we had drafted a player higher up on Mel kippers draft board...I believe that if our team was good enough to get to the SB they were good enough to win it. No talent deficiency in Foxboro. BB has built a contender for  a long long time, and I am thankful for that.



    Some of our fans here have very unreasonable or unrealistic expectations.

     
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  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: 2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:

     

     



    Perfect example of fans being spoiled. You would complain about woody and BJGE who were very effective in their roles because they weren't drafted? Deion Branch in 2010 and 2011 caught 99 balls for 1400 yards and 10 tds as a 4rth option... He wore down at the end of 2011 so we upgraded him with another solid addition of Lloyd last year. That's a problem???

    I never "complained" about Woody or BJGE.  Just recognize them for what they are.  Good role players, but hardly big impact guys.  There's a reason BB let both walk when they reached free agency.  They are easily replaceable.  I've always been a big Deion Branch fan, but he's well past his prime.  My point, simply, is that players like those should not be obstacles to rookies making the squad.  A quality rookie WR should have no problem displacing an aging  Deion Branch.  The reason Deion wasn't replaced is because there was no quality rookie to replace him with . . .

    Team building doesn't mean you can have 1st round talent at every position. It doesn't mean all of your draft picks work out, and when you win more then anybody else and accumulate draft picks more then anybody else, then you don't have room on the roster for all these guys to stick.

    All true, but so what?  It doesn't mean that having lots of picks that don't work out is a good thing.  

    It is a great problem to have when you bring in 2nd and 3rd rd picks and give them a 2 year audition only to cut them if they don't overwhelm. Or perhaps you are of the Texas Pat camp and believe that we would have won one of these SB's if we had drafted a player higher up on Mel kippers draft board...I believe that if our team was good enough to get to the SB they were good enough to win it. No talent deficiency in Foxboro. BB has built a contender for  a long long time, and I am thankful for that.

    I don't know if we would have won a Super Bowl if a few more of our picks worked out.  But I do know that a secondary full of Chungs and Butlers and Merriweathers and Wheatleys and whoever else we dragged out there wasn't very effective.  And I know that our receiving corp for years has been too thin to withstand the loss of one good player (whether that player was Moss or Welker or Gronk). And the D line hasn't looked dominant since Seymour and Warren moved on--despite BB blowing it up and rebuilding it multiple times.  At LB guys like Gary Guyton and Rob Ninkovich weren't really the quality we needed in starters.  Nor do I think that the RBs were all that good until Ridley came on last year.  The talent holes have been significant enough and there are a lot of positions where the starting players weren't really that good and so could easily have been replaced by a good rookie if one was available.  

    In my opinion, BB and his staff (including O'Brien, who you trashed repeatedly) did a very good job to keep this team winning with the talent deficits they've had. 

    We've been through this plenty of times.  You think the coaching is deficient.  I think the coaching is superb, but the talent hasn't been as good as it needs to be.  I thnk the fact that BB was comfortable letting so much of this allegedly strong talent walk only confirms that BB's opinion is closer to mine.  

     




     

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: 2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

     

    I want to thank Rusty for reviving a thread that was over withon page two. This thread was finished, point made, but Rusty's insistence to perpetuate the garbage keeps it alive and waters down the message... good job Rusty, way to milk a thread.


    You're quite the annoying little tool tonight, aren't you?



    You've seemingly made a lifetime career of it here...

    .. when the thread is dead, when the point has been made, let it die instead of breathing life back into it.

     
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  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: 2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    In response to Salcon's comment:

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:

     

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:

     

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    Not sure this reads like a ringing endorsement:

    I wasn't planning to include thePatriots because it feels like head coach Bill Belichick has lost his fastball at drafting in recent years. In reality, he suffered through a very rough stretch from '06-'09 before bouncing back in a major way lately.

    Furthermore, maybe the most interesting stat from the New Orleans article is that according to the author, the Pats 66 picks produced only 10 starters. Compare that with the Packers who got 18 starters with 64 picks or the Broncos with 17 starters in just 55 picks.     I think this just confirms my own feeling that BB is a good drafter (probably in the top 5 or 6), but not necessarily the best.  



    Does anybody agree with the premise that it's more difficult to field starters when you already have a team that wins more then any other? Or when you have more draft picks then most teams over the course of a decade due to your brilliance of acquiring more picks.

     

    Perhaps I do not explain my point well enough but take this year for example. We are coming off a SB and afc championship appearance. We are returning 22 of 24 starters from last years team. We are 1 of the youngest teams in the LG. how many starters can we expect to have drafted this year? Or in years past with similar situations? Other teams that do not have the luxury of  BB building their teams have gone through losing seasons...ALL OF THEM. It is more difficult for a player to shine in our system when you already have a 13-3 team every year. 

     

     

     

     



    This argument would be easier to make if the Pats weren't starting drafted guys like Darius Butler and Deion Branch and a lot of guys they didn't draft like BJGE and Danny Woodhead. These are very replaceable players.

     

     

     



    Perfect example of fans being spoiled. You would complain about woody and BJGE who were very effective in their roles because they weren't drafted? Deion Branch in 2010 and 2011 caught 99 balls for 1400 yards and 10 tds as a 4rth option... He wore down at the end of 2011 so we upgraded him with another solid addition of Lloyd last year. That's a problem???

     

    Team building doesn't mean you can have 1st round talent at every position. It doesn't mean all of your draft picks work out, and when you win more then anybody else and accumulate draft picks more then anybody else, then you don't have room on the roster for all these guys to stick.

    It is a great problem to have when you bring in 2nd and 3rd rd picks and give them a 2 year audition only to cut them if they don't overwhelm. Or perhaps you are of the Texas Pat camp and believe that we would have won one of these SB's if we had drafted a player higher up on Mel kippers draft board...I believe that if our team was good enough to get to the SB they were good enough to win it. No talent deficiency in Foxboro. BB has built a contender for  a long long time, and I am thankful for that.

     



    Some of our fans here have very unreasonable or unrealistic expectations.

     



    Some of our fans seem unable to objectively assess the team.  Because of this, you get these crazy arguments that (for instance) BB is the best GM in the history of sports and always makes the right personnel decisions so therefore any loss must be the fault of Tom Brady or the offensive coordinator's play calling. 

    Then you get others who seem to want to whine incessently about how BB messes all his picks up and the only reason the Pats win anything is because Brady is the QB.

    All I'd like to see is some more objectivity and balance. In my opinion, the strength of this team is BB's excellent coaching, his ability to build a team where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, his flexibility and creativity in adjusting schemes to the talent he has, and the excellent play of Tom Brady.  The only weaknesses of the team are some gaps in top-quality talent (or depth), which are caused mostly by the Pats lower draft position, but also by some failures to find enough good talent in the mid and lower round picks that Pats tend to trade down for and the low-cost free agents they tend to sign.

     
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  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: 2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    In response to Salcon's comment:

     

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:

     

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:

     

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    Not sure this reads like a ringing endorsement:

    I wasn't planning to include thePatriots because it feels like head coach Bill Belichick has lost his fastball at drafting in recent years. In reality, he suffered through a very rough stretch from '06-'09 before bouncing back in a major way lately.

    Furthermore, maybe the most interesting stat from the New Orleans article is that according to the author, the Pats 66 picks produced only 10 starters. Compare that with the Packers who got 18 starters with 64 picks or the Broncos with 17 starters in just 55 picks.     I think this just confirms my own feeling that BB is a good drafter (probably in the top 5 or 6), but not necessarily the best.  



    Does anybody agree with the premise that it's more difficult to field starters when you already have a team that wins more then any other? Or when you have more draft picks then most teams over the course of a decade due to your brilliance of acquiring more picks.

     

    Perhaps I do not explain my point well enough but take this year for example. We are coming off a SB and afc championship appearance. We are returning 22 of 24 starters from last years team. We are 1 of the youngest teams in the LG. how many starters can we expect to have drafted this year? Or in years past with similar situations? Other teams that do not have the luxury of  BB building their teams have gone through losing seasons...ALL OF THEM. It is more difficult for a player to shine in our system when you already have a 13-3 team every year. 

     

     

     

     



    This argument would be easier to make if the Pats weren't starting drafted guys like Darius Butler and Deion Branch and a lot of guys they didn't draft like BJGE and Danny Woodhead. These are very replaceable players.

     

     

     



    Perfect example of fans being spoiled. You would complain about woody and BJGE who were very effective in their roles because they weren't drafted? Deion Branch in 2010 and 2011 caught 99 balls for 1400 yards and 10 tds as a 4rth option... He wore down at the end of 2011 so we upgraded him with another solid addition of Lloyd last year. That's a problem???

     

    Team building doesn't mean you can have 1st round talent at every position. It doesn't mean all of your draft picks work out, and when you win more then anybody else and accumulate draft picks more then anybody else, then you don't have room on the roster for all these guys to stick.

    It is a great problem to have when you bring in 2nd and 3rd rd picks and give them a 2 year audition only to cut them if they don't overwhelm. Or perhaps you are of the Texas Pat camp and believe that we would have won one of these SB's if we had drafted a player higher up on Mel kippers draft board...I believe that if our team was good enough to get to the SB they were good enough to win it. No talent deficiency in Foxboro. BB has built a contender for  a long long time, and I am thankful for that.

     



    Some of our fans here have very unreasonable or unrealistic expectations.

     

     



    Some of our fans seem unable to objectively assess the team.  Because of this, you get these crazy arguments that (for instance) BB is the best GM in the history of sports and always makes the right personnel decisions so therefore any loss must be the fault of Tom Brady or the offensive coordinator's play calling. 

     

    Then you get others who seem to want to whine incessently about how BB messes all his picks up and the only reason the Pats win anything is because Brady is the QB.

    All I'd like to see is some more objectivity and balance. In my opinion, the strength of this team is BB's excellent coaching, his ability to build a team where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, his flexibility and creativity in adjusting schemes to the talent he has, and the excellent play of Tom Brady.  The only weaknesses of the team are some gaps in top-quality talent (or depth), which are caused mostly by the Pats lower draft position, but also by some failures to find enough good talent in the mid and lower round picks that Pats tend to trade down for and the low-cost free agents they tend to sign.

     




    I never said "BB is the best GM in the history of 'sports'"....Don't come on here now and start sensationalizing what I said.

     

    Also, please explain how it's "crazy" for me to think, rationally so with mountains of evidence and reason, to say he is the best NFL GM ever.

    Until someone comes forward and states a case dispelling my contention and countering with their choice making sense, then this premise is not so "crazy" is it?

     



    Rusty, I may be exaggerating a bit your position on Belichick.  But there are certainly other guys in recent years who are at least close to him in team-building skill.  Newsome, Reese, Cobert, Thompson all come to mind as guys who are close. And for all of Belichick's many hits, he's had some pretty big misses too.  I know that all GMs have misses--I don't expect perfection in anything so demonstrably a crap shoot as the draft--but I can't say that Belichick definitively has done a better job than some of the other top GMs. Again, I think he is in the top group of GMs--I'm not by any means saying he's bad or even mediocre.  I'm saying he's good, very good.  But I do think there are others who are arguably as good. 

    As far as the playoff woes of the team, I don't completely disagree with your contention about too much "shotgun spread."  I'd state it differently, though.  I think because the team has had talent gaps, it has come to rely too heavily on short timing patterns (which are best run out of the shotgun because they allow the QB to see the field and make decisions quickly).  That approach fits well with the talent the team does have, because Brady is so good at making fast decisions and accurate short throws and Welker is so good at getting open in the short game.  The Pats do rely too heavily on that.  But in large part that's because the other weapons just haven't been that good. (I don't buy the argument that BJGE was someone you could ride to a champioinship, I actually think Hern is overrated by NE fans, and Gronk, unfortunately, has been injured in the big games. I'd also add that O line play in the big games has been less than stellar, in large part because of injuries.)

    I don't agree that the defense has been good.  I think it's distinctly mediocre (though I have high hopes it will be better this year).  To me that's completely a talent problem because I think Belichick is a great defensive coach.  But I just don't think we've had consistently good talent anywhere except at the positions filled by Wilfork and Mayo.  I do think it's getting better.  I think Talib, Dennard, and McCourty proved to be a pretty good core in the secondary last year and I think we'll be okay with depth and the second safety position by the start of the season.  I like the LBs, especially if Collins proves to be capable of breaking the rotation and adding the coverage and pass rushing skills we've lacked from the LB spot.  And the D line has some potential improvements with Kelly, Armstead, and just the continued maturation of Jones and Francis.  So I'm optimistic.  (I'm also optimistic with all these receivers in, who hopefully get us the diversity we need on offense.)  But if I look at past eggs laid in playoffs, I attribute that almost solely to insufficient talent on offense and defense. 

     

     

     
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  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: 2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

     

    Dude, Reese and Colbert just missed the playoffs. Thompson's Packers' D is WORSE than ours was in 2011 or 2012.  That's like the second time in the last 3 or 4 years and go check their last 2 drafts. Not very good past 1 draft pick or so.

    Nobody has a great draft every year . . . all I'm saying is these guys have done pretty good jobs of building competitive teams.  BB's strategy tends to produce remarkable consistency (more so than any other GM) but there's an argument that such consistency could also be the Pats' problem.  The alternative strategy may be to "binge and purge" a bit . . . spending and drafting for top talent, then having to let some guys go and rebuild to get back in balance with the cap.  I'm not convinced one strategy is better than the other.  They both have had their successes though, and Reese and Cobert have two super bowls each in recent years, so even if they missed the playoffs last year, they both have also won the big game more than once recently.  The Ravens have even more success--being pretty good every year and arguably more successful in the playoffs over the last half dozen years than the Pats. 

     

    We've been over this. If Ray Lewis doesn't announce his  retirement, does Balt get hot after a crappy finish to their season? Who knows?  So, good job by Ray Lewis to announce it and the team to rally around it. BUt, that doesn't make Ozzie Newsome anywhere near as accomplished as BB. 

    I think there was a lot more to their success than Ray Lewis's announcement.  A lot of their slump was due to midseason injuries.  They looked good early in the season and late in the season.  In-between it really was mostly the fault of injuries.  It looks like Newsome may have navigated a challenging offseason this year pretty well too.  We'll know come regular season.

     

    DO they have better resumes than BB?  Absolutely not. Not even remotely close. The ONLY reason why the media or now you are even mentioning those names is literally because our own teams lost to those GMs in some fashion in recent years.

    It's the "not even remotely close" that I can't agree with.  I think they are close. Not necessarily better, but pretty darn close. 

    The fact is, a Tyree catch, a high throw from Brady or Welker drop, etc, means Reese's name doesn't even become a whisper next to BB.  Big Ben's SB 40 play was horrrendous, too. To this day the officiating for Cowher in that game is incredibly suspicious.

    BB  cannot control Tyree's hands or what Brady and Welker do when executing in games. Do you understand this?  Those plays are not tied to BB the GM or Reese, Colbert, Newsome, etc.

    You can point to all sorts of freak plays that benefitted the Pats too.  How about the missed field goal in the AFC championship game in 2011?  What about the tuck rule play against Oakland in 2001?    

    BB has built 5 SB teams. FIVE.  If the cap doesn't exist and BB said to Kraft in 2006 "co to SB an we just pay Branch a bit more" with Kraft easily agreeing, we likley g0 to SB 41 and beat Rex Grossman's Bears.

    This is exactly the issue though.  Why didn't the Pats get Branch signed?  Same with Samuel.  And maybe they should have kept Seymour.  

    Same deal in 2009 or 2010 with Seymour.  It could have easily been 7 SB built teams. Do you think BB wanted to deal Moss in 2010? Probably not. I kept saying if he just keeps his mouth shut and is a decoy most of the time, with those TEs and BJGE running behind Crumpler, etc, they have a great chance to win it all even with a handful of kids starting on D. But, Moss wanted his deal before the lockout because he knew he'd get squeezed after it and he did.

    So, we're talking 6 or 7 SB appearances that we were capable of without a salary cap!  That's insane!  ANd, that doesn't even count this past year's debacle by our offense again.

    The main difference between the Giants or Ravens, Steelers, Packers, etc is they were further along in their teambuilding than we were. Why is this is so hard to understand and why isn't BB allowed to wisely and correctly rebuild on the fly?  This is what is annoying about fans like you.

    You want to snap your finger and see a veteran, locked down D and it just is impossible to do in the cap era. 

    ANd Ted Thompson? His plan with Rodgers, trading Favre, etc took guts and turned out great, but they've been 1 and done two years in a row in the postseason and we'll see if they can win another because they really are scrambling these last 2 drafts.  He's playin catch up because they lost a slew of FAs all at once after 2010, a la the Giants, Steelers and Ravens.

    Do the math.

    BB isn/t losing large swaths of personnel off his roster losing mass continuity.

    When BB blew up the defensive line in the preseason in 2011 that was a sign that his plan wasn't going well and he had to radically change direction.  There are plenty of units on this team that have been treading water for several years.  That includes the defensive backfield, the defensive line, and the wide receivers.  This despite lots of picks used on those positions, especially the defensive backfield. 

    BB is clearly superior.  Any GM can be a GM of a SB winning team.   Bill Polian is one.  But, look at the hiccups of said GMs and teams.  He hid behind Manning and Manning's toys for a decade and barely escaped for one ring.

    Ironically, the QB you excuse or the system he prefers, are the exact root causes of WHY we lost SB 42 and SB 46, or even the AFC title game in 2006.  All leads blown, quite frankly, because we couldn't sustain more than 1 drive or score just 1 FG more.  1 FG.   Think about that.  You can't just lose momentum constantly due to bad offense and expect it not to hurt.

    Go look at our second half offenses in each. They score 1 TD in the second half of those games, but the amount of time wasted, momentum losses, field position losses, etc, are all rooted in that preferred base offense.

    In my opinion this just supports my opinion that the talent hasn't been there. It's not Brady.  It's the lack of great runners and enough great receivers.  

    I am telling ya.  I've been correct this whole time.  What's it going to take for fans like you? Another SB loss with 40+ passes, Brady and the offense fading? Why? Why do you want to see it another time? 

    Again, give Brady more and better targets and get better backs than BJGE and Woodhead.  Without Gronk, the offense really suffers.  That's the real problem--we're way too dependent on one or two guys.  We need more quality weapons so we're not that dependent on so few. 

    I literally get sick to my stomach watching it happen because I know the result.  I knew we'd lose the AFC title game once I saw the hurry up combined with the shotguns and subbing of Ridley on and off with Vereen.  I am watching the 2010 Jets vs Stellers right now on NFLN, and the only Sanchez looks decent is because they establish a run for him every single game.  Brady actually needs that too as great as Brady is. Gomer needs it in Denver.

    Every other pink helmet that has been brainwashed by the anti-BB media comes racing in to blame BB's young D, but that hasn't been the main reason. It's been the secondary reason, because the common denominator in 2007 or 2012 is the pass first base offense.

    Also, mediocre Ds aren't stout run stoppes or leading the NFL in turnovers created almost every year for 3 straight seasons. Sorry, your word choice is off. It's a good, solid D with a pass D flaw and some bad luck with injuries (Carter in 2011, Taliba and Jones in 2012).

    The D is great against the run, but most good teams throw on 55% to 65% of their offensive plays. If you can't defend more than half the plays effectively, you're not going to be an overall good defense.  A pass D flaw is significant in a passing league!

    Our D would be better or appear better to fans like you if the above offense I just explained was used LESS.

    YEP.

    You're just going to have to get over it, Prolate.  I was talking about his after the Week 3 Buffalo debacle for a reason in 2011. It had been lingering for a couple years and it wasn't going away.  It was proof positive of the root problem even if our discombobulated, young D off a lockout with no camp blew the lead late.   It's rooted EARLIER in those kinds of games. Rooted earlier, on offense.

     




     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: 2006-2012: Over that span, no team drafted more combined Pro Bowl and All-Pro players than the Patriots

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

    There is so much flat out wrong in your above post, too, Prolate, that I need to add a second post.

    With regards to BJGE, if we did ride HIM and not Woodhead in the last 3 or 4 drives in the second half, we win the SB.

    Do you understand this?  Woodhead is not a guy you use to milk clock, methodically drive down the field with, nor is Brady under Center with Woodhead on the field. The Brady INT never would have happened, at least 2+ minutes of clock would have run off and we likely get at LEAST a FG on that one drive.  It's 20-12 vs 17-15 back the other way with a loss of momentum.  That's before the Welker drop which is another possible 2 minutes of clock!  Why is this so difficult to grasp?

    Woodhead and BJGE was not a great backfield.  Both have their abilities, which is why they played, but neither was anyone that really scared a defense.  Our offense was way too dependent on Welker and Gronk.  With Gronk out, it really was ridiculously thin in talent for a Super Bowl team that also lacked a stellar defense. 

    This is football 101, dude. A dwarf at RB aka a scatback is not a lead back and never will be in this league. Ever. They're wrinkles. A Wildcat is a wrinkle, a read option is a wrinkle. And yes, sadly our shotgun spread base is a wrinkle that was overused.

    You think BB doesn't understand football 101?  C'mon, the Pats have been using shotgun spread for years now.  If it was a mistake, do you really think BB would have allowed it to continue for years?  Heck, it would have been snuffed out after a game. 

    WHy do you think Kaepernick choked it down in the SB?  Because the read option is a wrinkle and can't sustain. It's why they got behind.

    This is why players like Reggie Bush or CJ Spiller aren't top 10 draft picks to me. They're scatbacks. You can't win a SB with a scatback as your lead back.   BJGe represented for us, good old fashioned balanced offense as our lead RB, reagardless if he is All Pro or not.

    And when BJGE has 9 carries and WOodhead the same amount, that's a MAJOR, MAJOR problem to me.

    THAT is why we lost SB 46, dude. No debate about it.




     

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