2011 Patriots Draft Options ***THANKS TO ALL WHO CONTRIBUTED!***

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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15*** : It's a nice story but it works both ways. If he had to become the head of the house and it woke him up he cuold have easily seen the best way to take care of his family was to make it big in the NFL and the easiest way to do that is suddenly spike your numbers by juicing up and being selected high. I hope it isn't the case cause he does have a good story but for everyone that suddenly wakes up and is clean there are as many who will do anything to make it big. I'd still be cautious of that sudden spike and do my homework before drafting him.
    Posted by PatsEng



    I am not advocating trading up for him just answering with one proposed reason for the change, as it was written.

    I already cleary stated my case on page #109 on why I am against trading up for a 3-4 OLB pass rusher.

    The history does not support it with nearly enough fruequency.
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15*** : I am not advocating trading up for him just answering with one proposed reason for the change, as it was written. I already cleary stated my case on page #109 on why I am against trading up for a 3-4 OLB pass rusher. The history does not support it with nearly enough fruequency.
    Posted by Low-FB-IQ


    I hear yeah. I know it was just one page ago but honestly I stopped reading back pages after I took a couple days off from the boards  : p

    It's just great when you have to point out pages and they are in the 100's lol
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    You are the best mb07! Sometime soon, could you also go over the 2009, 2010 Pats picks and give them/us a grade and future potential advisory?   Thanks!
    Posted by PetesCall


    PC,
    Thanks for the kind words.  I'm just a huge Pat's fan that also loves the draft!

    Overall, I love this draft class and the early returns has been extremely positive, yielding 2 starters on offense and another 3-4 on defense to go along with a starting punter.

    Using a baseline of "C" for average NFL starter, I'll apply the below grades:

    Devin McCourty- A+:  Has been one of the biggest impact defenders in this class and looks like a potential All-Pro type talent.

    Rob Gronkowski- B+: Solid rookie season and can impact as both a receiver and blocker, definite pro-bowl potential with maybe All-Pro potential down the road.

    Jermaine Cunningham- C: Has flashed some ability, but still has a ways to go.  Starting as a rookie is a good way to kick off your career though.

    Brandon Spikes- C:  Solid run defender, needs work in coverage.  He also needs to make better decisions off the field.  Should be the starter along side Mayo next season.

    Taylor Price- Incomplete:  Flashed some ability when given some PT, but he didn't get enough burn to formulate a grade, IMO.  I think he's a kid that plays a bigger role in their offense in 2011.

    Aaron Hernandez- B: Versatile player with big time potential.  He tailed off toward the end of the season, but looks like a huge part of their offense moving forward.

    Zoltan Mesko- C:  NE was 19th in the NFL in gross yards per punt and 13th in net yards per punt. He didn't have a ton of chances as NE was 29th in the NFL with only 58 punts and the early snapping issues with Jake Ingram, certainly didn't help.  He has a good leg and I think he turns into an above average punter. 

    Brandon Deaderick- C-:  Got some burn with the ones as a 7th Rd rookie, but he needs to focus and improve his off field habits if he wants to stick around.  I think he can provide solid depth along the DL if he smartens up.

    I'm not going to grade the drafted players that didn't play for NE:  Larsen/Welch/Weston/Robinson.

    As for the URFA's, I'm really high on Dane Fletcher is a potential break out type player next season and I like what I've seen from Sergio Brown in limited snaps, he's also a solid special teams guy.  Kyle Love was forced into a starting role late in the season and could be a solid potential DL rotation guy, though I think they look to upgrade the overall depth of the DL.
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15*** : PC, Thanks for the kind words.  I'm just a huge Pat's fan that also loves the draft! Overall, I love this draft class and the early returns has been extremely positive, yielding 2 starters on offense and another 3-4 on defense to go along with a starting punter. Using a baseline of "C" for average NFL starter, I'll apply the below grades: Devin McCourty - A+:  Has been one of the biggest impact defenders in this class and looks like a potential All-Pro type talent. Rob Gronkowski - B+: Solid rookie season and can impact as both a receiver and blocker, definite pro-bowl potential with maybe All-Pro potential down the road. Jermaine Cunningham - C: Has flashed some ability, but still has a ways to go.  Starting as a rookie is a good way to kick off your career though. Brandon Spikes - C:  Solid run defender, needs work in coverage.  He also needs to make better decisions off the field.  Should be the starter along side Mayo next season. Taylor Price - Incomplete:  Flashed some ability when given some PT, but he didn't get enough burn to formulate a grade, IMO.  I think he's a kid that plays a bigger role in their offense in 2011. Aaron Hernandez - B: Versatile player with big time potential.  He tailed off toward the end of the season, but looks like a huge part of their offense moving forward. Zoltan Mesko - C:  NE was 19th in the NFL in gross yards per punt and 13th in net yards per punt. He didn't have a ton of chances as NE was 29th in the NFL with only 58 punts and the early snapping issues with Jake Ingram, certainly didn't help.  He has a good leg and I think he turns into an above average punter.  Brandon Deaderick - C-:  Got some burn with the ones as a 7th Rd rookie, but he needs to focus and improve his off field habits if he wants to stick around.  I think he can provide solid depth along the DL if he smartens up. I'm not going to grade the drafted players that didn't play for NE:  Larsen/Welch/Weston/Robinson. As for the URFA's, I'm really high on Dane Fletcher is a potential break out type player next season and I like what I've seen from Sergio Brown in limited snaps, he's also a solid special teams guy.  Kyle Love was forced into a starting role late in the season and could be a solid potential DL rotation guy, though I think they look to upgrade the overall depth of the DL.
    Posted by mbeaulieu07


    Larsen ended up starting and drawing rave reviews at Guard for Tampa Bay.
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    Faucet - Kerrigan has a proven track record 08' 7 sacks 11.5 TFL, 09' 11 sacks 17 TFL, 10' 12.5 sacks 26 TFL That shows one heck of a solid track record imo so just saying that he ate up on weaker lines in 10' wouldn't explain how he managed to be a great pass rusher from 08-10'. That's a more solid track record then Miller With Reed he's got about the same sack and TFL numbers as most the potential OLB's but the thing that really impressed me about him and well Kerrigan is during senior bowl week they were put against the best T's and G's and both found ways to get to the QB. No matter what competition they played during the season when you look at the numbers then look at how they performed in the senior practices they are legit pass rushers
    Posted by PatsEng

    I'm not knocking Kerrigan or anyone else, I'm just saying it would be helpful to look at the level of competition that some of these sack leaders had.  I agree, Kerrigan and Jordan looked great the whole Senior Bowl week.  I caught every practice.  Problem is we don't get to see the declared underclassmen play in another game after they've declared.  Bowers, Houston, Ayers, Smith and Quinn; these guys are a bit unknown and risky.  A lot of so called draft experts don't even look at the underclassmen until about a month after they declare and really don't start making their evaluations until the Combine.  Mike Mayock is a classic example.  He doesn't even think about the underclassmen, except for maybe a handful that are hard to ignore, until about now.  He's still learning about some of these guys that we've been talking about for awhile. 

    I'm not 100% sold on Miller, Kerrigan or any OLB type at this point.  We haven't had the Combine yet.  That is where things start to solidify for me.  My only point about trading up to get an elite pass rusher is if we could and the player was a pretty certain stud, that we have the ammo to go do it.  I'd be just as happy sitting tight and taking Watt or Jordan at 17.  Better play from the DL means more opportunities for the LBs.

    The OLB position for some reason is hard to draft.  It's probably because most of the time we are looking at converting DEs.  That's a bit like taking a pitcher and telling him to play outfield.  We might be a whole lot better off going after a F/A OLB and worry about other positions in the draft.
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    I see your point Faucet but even though we have the ammo to move up I still feel that 1 of Kerrigan, Smith, Watt, or Jordan will be there at 17. If we were going to move up I'd rather it be #60 to get into the early 40's late 30's truthfully. I say that because I think we can get an impact D player at 17 whether that be OLB or DE and an impact player at 28 on OL. #33 is a toss up in the air whether to trade back or there are OLB's, OL's and DE's that can be there as well. Taking #60 and moving early into the round gets you a good shot at one of the better WR's (Baldwin or Hankerson) or RB's (Leshoure or Williams) or even another good OL. Imagine coming out of the draft with a combination of the best rushing DE, rushing OLB, T, G/C, RB, or WR. 4 picks in the top 45 would fix most of the holes.

    OLB is really hard to draft for which is one reason I wouldn't move up for one. When I look at DE's to transition over to OLB's I look for players who can stand up and have played in a system that has asked them to stand up and sometimes cover. When Kerrigan first asked to stand up he looked a bit awkward but he seemed to get stronger during senior week and by the end he looked like he was getting the hang of it. Reed on the other hand looked completely natural standing up. Some who didn't and I don't think can translate are Beal and Bailey. They will either be 4-3 DE's or someone will fall in love with their numbers and try them out as 3-4 OLB's but I just don't see them succeeding at the position. It's funny at the beginning of the season both Beal and Bailey were considered top 20 picks now they might even fall out of the 2nd
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15*** : PC, Thanks for the kind words.  I'm just a huge Pat's fan that also loves the draft! Overall, I love this draft class and the early returns has been extremely positive, yielding 2 starters on offense and another 3-4 on defense to go along with a starting punter. Using a baseline of "C" for average NFL starter, I'll apply the below grades: Devin McCourty - A+:  Has been one of the biggest impact defenders in this class and looks like a potential All-Pro type talent. Rob Gronkowski - B+: Solid rookie season and can impact as both a receiver and blocker, definite pro-bowl potential with maybe All-Pro potential down the road. Jermaine Cunningham - C: Has flashed some ability, but still has a ways to go.  Starting as a rookie is a good way to kick off your career though. Brandon Spikes - C:  Solid run defender, needs work in coverage.  He also needs to make better decisions off the field.  Should be the starter along side Mayo next season. Taylor Price - Incomplete:  Flashed some ability when given some PT, but he didn't get enough burn to formulate a grade, IMO.  I think he's a kid that plays a bigger role in their offense in 2011. Aaron Hernandez - B: Versatile player with big time potential.  He tailed off toward the end of the season, but looks like a huge part of their offense moving forward. Zoltan Mesko - C:  NE was 19th in the NFL in gross yards per punt and 13th in net yards per punt. He didn't have a ton of chances as NE was 29th in the NFL with only 58 punts and the early snapping issues with Jake Ingram, certainly didn't help.  He has a good leg and I think he turns into an above average punter.  Brandon Deaderick - C-:  Got some burn with the ones as a 7th Rd rookie, but he needs to focus and improve his off field habits if he wants to stick around.  I think he can provide solid depth along the DL if he smartens up. I'm not going to grade the drafted players that didn't play for NE:  Larsen/Welch/Weston/Robinson. As for the URFA's, I'm really high on Dane Fletcher is a potential break out type player next season and I like what I've seen from Sergio Brown in limited snaps, he's also a solid special teams guy.  Kyle Love was forced into a starting role late in the season and could be a solid potential DL rotation guy, though I think they look to upgrade the overall depth of the DL.
    Posted by mbeaulieu07


    This was a phenomonal draft for the Patriots.  It would have been perfect if they had picked Dunlap over Cunningham.  Find me another guy who is 6'6 and 280Lbs, runs 4.6, and had two years of big-time production at the college level. What a regretable miss! Here is a hypothetical question: who would you pick: JJ Watt at #17 or Dunlap with DUI at #54? Had we picked Dunlap, we would have won the Super Bowl.  Can you imagine the creative ways that BB can deploy a physical freak like Dunalp?

    Here is a quote from PFT:

    Finally cracking Cincinnati’s defensive rotation in Week Ten, Dunlap ripped through offensive lines en route to 9.5 sacks in the final eight weeks. Despite not starting a single game, the former Florida Gator  finished the season as the Bengals’ sack leader by a wide margin. Next closest was fellow rookie Geno Atkins, a defensive tackle, with 6.5 fewer sacks than Dunlap.

    Had Dunlap received full-time snaps in 2010, he very well may have given Ndamukong Suh a run for Defensive Rookie of the Year.


     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15*** : Faucet, I'm not sure that 57% sub packages necessarily means that 57% of the time they're in a 4-3 set (I could be wrong).  To me, it means that they're not in their base 3-4 set 57% of the time, instead aligning in some 3-4 variation or 4-3 package or another alignment. It'd be nice for the person who came up with the 57% sub package figure (was it Reis?) to identify the different alignments and applicable percentage of plays in said alignments.
    Posted by mbeaulieu07


    yes mb,
     i posted it from reiss
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15*** : This was a phenomonal draft for the Patriots.  It would have been perfect if they had picked Dunlap over Cunningham.  Find me another guy who is 6'6 and 280Lbs, runs 4.6, and had two years of big-time production at the college level. What a regretable miss! Here is a hypothetical question: who would you pick: JJ Watt at #17 or Dunlap with DUI at #54? Had we picked Dunlap, we would have won the Super Bowl.  Can you imagine the creative ways that BB can deploy a physical freak like Dunalp? Here is a quote from PFT: Finally cracking Cincinnati’s defensive rotation in Week Ten, Dunlap ripped through offensive lines en route to 9.5 sacks in the final eight weeks. Despite not starting a single game, the former Florida Gator  finished the season as the Bengals’ sack leader by a wide margin. Next closest was fellow rookie Geno Atkins, a defensive tackle, with 6.5 fewer sacks than Dunlap. Had Dunlap received full-time snaps in 2010, he very well may have given Ndamukong Suh a run for Defensive Rookie of the Year.
    Posted by TrustBill

    looks like another case where bill took the "good kid" instead of the freak of a player. thanks urban (urban meyer).

     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    On Luck, sure we want him, but I dont want to trade up from 32 *smile* to get him since it would take almost all of our draft.
    Posted by MordecaiBloodmoon

    hi mordecai,
    the point there would be to trade now for next years potential #1 (ie possibly carolina)

     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15*** : You're question is beyond my knowledge so will defer to someone else.  I have no idea what would happen to teams already over the cap.  I assume they would have to cut players or restructure contracts.  Those cut player can probably sign with a new team once there is a new CBA. Quinn made a dumb move when he was what, 18, 19?  He accepted a couple of gold watches from an agent.  Obviously that's a red flag but that's all I've heard about him off the field.  If there are other questions, if he's into drugs, beats his dog or anything like that, I'd keep away from him.  But, I think we can overlook a dumb youthful mistake if he otherwise checks out and interviews well.  Yes, I would make the move from 17 to 11 for either Quinn or Miller.  BB has already said he's been hearing from teams looking to trade down.  Our 33 and 17 gets us to #7.  Our 17 and 28 gets us to #5.  All three picks, 17, 28 and 33 get us to #3 with a 4th rounder (99) coming back.  At #3 at least one of these guys would be there; Fairley, Bowers, Peterson or Dareus.  I would not give up the 3 picks, but I would consider giving up 17 and 28 to move to #5 if one of these guys is there.  Better yet, 17 and 33 to get to #7 for one of Fairley, Bowers, Peterson, Dareus, Quinn or Miller .  You got to figure Green and Gabbert should be coming off in the top 6, if both do, two of the aforementioned will be there at 7 and SF is a common trading partner.  Think about it, we had the best record in football.  We only have 2 key F/A and we might be able to keep them both.  We have a starting CB and DE returning from injury.  We could have a top 7 pick and draft a big time pass rusher or land a stud DE, and still have another 1st, pick 28 and a 2nd round pick, 60 and a pair of 3rds.   If we keep Mankins and Light and do the above, we could have a draft like this. #7   OLB Quinn or Miller #28  DE JJ Watt #60  WR Titus Young #74  OG John Moffitt #92  OLB Sam Acho #124 RB John Clay #6C  RB Mario Fannin  
    Posted by Faucetman


    in re to :
    "BB has already said he's been hearing from teams looking to trade down.  Our 33 and 17 gets us to #7.  Our 17 and 28 gets us to #5.  All three picks, 17, 28 and 33 get us to #3 with a 4th rounder (99) coming back.  At #3 at least one of these guys would be there; Fairley, Bowers, Peterson or Dareus.  I would not give up the 3 picks, but I would consider giving up 17 and 28 to move to #5 if one of these guys is there.  Better yet, 17 and 33 to get to #7 for one of Fairley, Bowers, Peterson, Dareus, Quinn or Miller.  You got to figure Green and Gabbert should be coming off in the top 6, if both do, two of the aforementioned will be there at 7 and SF is a common trading partner.  "


    so far
    quinn is getting mocked at 6-9
    miller from 5-11
    and bowers in the top 5.

    i'm on the record in principal with you of trading up if not F.A. to get the stud olb, o line, d line.

    incidently espn has baltimore losing gaithers according to conversations with insiders 
    and if there is a F.A the name they are associated with is Matt Light.

    i'm on record as wanting to sign ligth and mankins and pick an improvement on light and
     interior lineman.

    also, deangelo williams may not get tageged and already miami and denver are linked with having discussions with the carolina panthers
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    listing of what teams are already up to going toward the salary cap (players already under contract for 2011), not including drafted players coming up, free agents or upcoming tags put on players, according to pat yasinskas, espn:

    the new cap is undetermined.
    the 2009 cap was 130 million.

    (the jets look like they are the most "scrood" with 17 unsigned free agents
    and already at 129 m - regardless what the new cap is.)

    by contrast, we should have plenty of wiggle room at 102 m




    Also, we won’t know what the 2011 salary cap for all teams will be until there’s a deal in place. For reference, the salary cap in 2009, the last capped year was right about $130 million.
    • Arizona $83 million
    • Atlanta $102.1 million
    • Baltimore $101.3 million
    • Buffalo $96.4 million
    • Carolina $73 million
    • Chicago $104.9 million
    • Cincinnati $90.7 million
    • Cleveland $99.2 million
    • Dallas $136.6 million
    • Denver $125 million
    • Detroit $113.8 million
    • Green Bay $129.8 million
    • Houston $118.4 million
    • Indianapolis $115.5 million
    • Jacksonville $78.1 million
    • Kansas City $74.7 million
    • Miami $103.1 million
    • Minnesota $108.4 million
    • New England $102.3 million
    • New Orleans $105.2 million
    • New York Giants $126.3 million
    • New York Jets $128.5 million
    • Oakland $85.8 million
    • Philadelphia $80.8 million
    • Pittsburgh $116 million
    • San Diego $85.8 million
    • San Francisco $100.9 million
    • Seattle $81.1 million
    • St. Louis $102.4 million
    • Tampa Bay $59.7 million
    • Tennessee $107.4 million
    • Washington $115.2 million
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    the cost of rigidity around measurable size and weight versus selecting a player who can do the job you need to get done:

    (Lamar woodley)
    "In addition, while his numbers aren’t in dispute, he doesn’t quite fit the physical mold of what the Patriots usually look for in their ideal outside linebacker — there’s a reason they passed over him when he was available in the 2007 draft. (He was taken in the second round by the Steelers. Instead, New England selected Brandon Meriweather.) Now, if Bill Belichick is going to go all in for an outside linebacker like he’d have to do with Woodley, history tells us that he’d be taller and leaner."

    maybe it's time to loosen up the parameters, think outside the box, and select a stud football player, instead of a size and weight.

    furhtermore, even if we selected an olb who was a pass rushing demon who had 10-18 sacks a season, we could afford it if he were only average at run stopping ability. much of our team is average, but the lack of a consistent pressure on the quarterback is the top reason we have a playoff  team and not a championship team.

     #2.) ditto with the o line(good but not good enough against the best defenses- not allowing brady to do his thing-upgrade) ,
     #3.) lack of a fullsize 5 yard per carry, breakaway potential back and
     4.) a legit tall tough reliable receiver. 
     (#5. in a perfect world, dump meriweather).
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    the cost of rigidity around measurable size and weight versus selecting a player who can do the job you need to get done: (Lamar woodley) "In addition, while his numbers aren’t in dispute, he doesn’t quite fit the physical mold of what the Patriots usually look for in their ideal outside linebacker — there’s a reason they passed over him when he was available in the 2007 draft. (He was taken in the second round by the Steelers. Instead, New England selected  Brandon Meriweather .) Now, if  Bill Belichick  is going to go all in for an outside linebacker like he’d have to do with Woodley, history tells us that he’d be taller and leaner." maybe it's time to loosen up the parameters, think outside the box, and select a stud football player, instead of a size and weight. furhtermore, even if we selected an olb who was a pass rushing demon who had 10-18 sacks a season, we could afford it if he were only average at run stopping ability. much of our team is average, but the lack of a consistent pressure on the quarterback is the top reason we have a playoff  team and not a championship team.  #2.) ditto with the o line(good but not good enough against the best defenses- not allowing brady to do his thing-upgrade) ,  #3.) lack of a fullsize 5 yard per carry, breakaway potential back  and  4.) a legit tall tough reliable receiver.   (#5. in a perfect world, dump meriweather).
    Posted by cbdam


    You are taking things out of context with this example and making inaccurate assumptions.

    Meriweather went 24

    Woodley went 46

    22 OTHER teams passed on Woodley

    The entire draft class as a whole was considered a weaker class after you got by the top 50 players and the Patriots did not end up drafting again until pick #127.

    The Patriots were rumored to be interested in BOTH Woodley and Harris from Michigan that year but both were picked back to back by Pitt and Jets AND before the Patriots were to pick again.

    With Meri you are drafting a player who is going to play the position he played in college and got to watch tons of film on him performing that exact or very similar role or responsibility.

    Woodley would be a complete projection from DE to OLB so he never ever played the position before and you got to watch ZERO film on him perform his projected role or responsibility.

    Woodley's success in an attacking, blitzing style of 3-4 is absolutely no guarantee of what his production would be like in the Patriots read and react style of 3-4.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15*** : This was a phenomonal draft for the Patriots.  It would have been perfect if they had picked Dunlap over Cunningham.  Find me another guy who is 6'6 and 280Lbs, runs 4.6, and had two years of big-time production at the college level. What a regretable miss! Here is a hypothetical question: who would you pick: JJ Watt at #17 or Dunlap with DUI at #54? Had we picked Dunlap, we would have won the Super Bowl.  Can you imagine the creative ways that BB can deploy a physical freak like Dunalp? Here is a quote from PFT: Finally cracking Cincinnati’s defensive rotation in Week Ten, Dunlap ripped through offensive lines en route to 9.5 sacks in the final eight weeks. Despite not starting a single game, the former Florida Gator  finished the season as the Bengals’ sack leader by a wide margin. Next closest was fellow rookie Geno Atkins, a defensive tackle, with 6.5 fewer sacks than Dunlap. Had Dunlap received full-time snaps in 2010, he very well may have given Ndamukong Suh a run for Defensive Rookie of the Year.
    Posted by TrustBill


    Yes, it was a great draft. I personally think we took Cunningham too early. I think he would have been hanging around in round 3 or 4. I didn't see him as as round 2 guy. We could of had both Dunlap and Cunningham, and perhaps that would have been the best option given we made a run on gators.
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15*** : I'm not knocking Kerrigan or anyone else, I'm just saying it would be helpful to look at the level of competition that some of these sack leaders had.  I agree, Kerrigan and Jordan looked great the whole Senior Bowl week.  I caught every practice.  Problem is we don't get to see the declared underclassmen play in another game after they've declared.  Bowers, Houston, Ayers, Smith and Quinn; these guys are a bit unknown and risky.  A lot of so called draft experts don't even look at the underclassmen until about a month after they declare and really don't start making their evaluations until the Combine.  Mike Mayock is a classic example.  He doesn't even think about the underclassmen, except for maybe a handful that are hard to ignore, until about now.  He's still learning about some of these guys that we've been talking about for awhile.  I'm not 100% sold on Miller, Kerrigan or any OLB type at this point.  We haven't had the Combine yet.  That is where things start to solidify for me.  My only point about trading up to get an elite pass rusher is if we could and the player was a pretty certain stud, that we have the ammo to go do it.  I'd be just as happy sitting tight and taking Watt or Jordan at 17.  Better play from the DL means more opportunities for the LBs. The OLB position for some reason is hard to draft.  It's probably because most of the time we are looking at converting DEs.  That's a bit like taking a pitching and telling him to play outfield.  We might be a whole lot better off going after a F/A OLB and worry about other positions in the draft.
    Posted by Faucetman


    You got it. It is hard to draft, but when you see other 3-4 teams drafting successful and productive OLB talent up and down the draft, year over year like the Steelers for example, it makes me scratch my head why we have a hard time doing so?

    I am starting to think it might be easier to take a guy like Martez Wilson and convert him to OLB from ILB. At least he has experience playing standing up, and at the LB level. He also has experience in pass coverage, and is good against the run. It seems like his projection to OLB vs a 4-3 DE is a lot easier to make, but perhaps that's just my opinion.

    I'd be curious to see if there are any other ILB's in this draft that could make the conversion assuming you believe Wilson can?

    The more I think about the 17th pick (if we stay with it and don't trade up), DE or OL are the 2 safest bets. The usual suspects (Watt, Jordan), (Castonzo, etc.). That is pretty simple and fills position of need without taking a huge risk on a DE convert to play OLB. Then you have the flipside which is with big risks possibly come big rewards. ie, trading up for a Quinn or someone that has the potential to be a game changer.

    MB made a recent post on Dane Fletcher. I like this kid a lot too. He was productive last year with limited play, and he should have a nice next year. Could we see him starting next to Mayo in the middle over Guyton and Spikes? I mean, he plays the run and pass pretty well, unlike the 2 two which are deficient on the run and pass respectively.

     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***


    How Martez Wilson finished last year....

    Wilson finished the season leading the Illini with 112 tackles. That went along with 11.5 tackles for loss, four sacks, three forced fumbles and five passes defended.

    Not bad for an ILB, especially the 4 sacks and TFL's.

    It has been also reported he runs a sub 4.6, and may scouts believe he is best suited to play OLB in a 3-4. He is perfect BB size at 6'4", 250.

    Any takers?

     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15*** : This was a phenomonal draft for the Patriots.  It would have been perfect if they had picked Dunlap over Cunningham.  Find me another guy who is 6'6 and 280Lbs, runs 4.6, and had two years of big-time production at the college level. What a regretable miss! Here is a hypothetical question: who would you pick: JJ Watt at #17 or Dunlap with DUI at #54? Had we picked Dunlap, we would have won the Super Bowl.  Can you imagine the creative ways that BB can deploy a physical freak like Dunalp? Here is a quote from PFT: Finally cracking Cincinnati’s defensive rotation in Week Ten, Dunlap ripped through offensive lines en route to 9.5 sacks in the final eight weeks. Despite not starting a single game, the former Florida Gator  finished the season as the Bengals’ sack leader by a wide margin. Next closest was fellow rookie Geno Atkins, a defensive tackle, with 6.5 fewer sacks than Dunlap. Had Dunlap received full-time snaps in 2010, he very well may have given Ndamukong Suh a run for Defensive Rookie of the Year.
    Posted by TrustBill


    I think that is the wrong question to ask.

    It would be Dunlap vs Cunningham not Watt. Watt would play 3-4 DE and not 3-4 OLB although he could also play 4-3 DE when you want to use that alignment. I don't think anyone ever envisioned Dunlap taking on double teams as a 3-4 DE.

    1) Dunlap played his normal 4-3 DE position

    2) Cunningham made the successful switch to 3-4 OLB and started. Dunlap may have as well but the fact is we do NOT KNOW.

    3) Dunlap, per your posted comments from PFT, never started a single game - ZERO. He was used situationally only and never assumed the starting job, even playing his natural position.

    4) Cunningham started 11 games and took over the fulltime starting job.

    5) Starts aside, I don't know what the total number of plays differential was?

    6) Dunlap beats Cunningham handily on sacks 9.5 vs 1.0

    7) Cunningham beats Dunlap in Tackles. That's in total, solo and assists.

    8) Dunlap had 3 passes defended to Cunninghams 1 and assume those are basically hand up blocks during a pass rush as I doubt Dunlap was ever asked to work in space as a 3-4 OLB would be doing as part of his responsibilities.

    9) Cunningham had 2 forced fumbles while Dunlap had 0.

    10) Age is basically a wash, Dunlap is a year younger i believe but both are just kids at 21 and 22.

    11) Character, locker room presence, and fulltime motor (work ethic) goes to Cunningham obviously.

    12) Drafted back to back.


    As a side note Cunningham avg. .79 sacks a game as a 4-3 DE situational pass rusher but cost a high 2nd round #54 draft pick. Avg. 2 tackles a game and no forced fumbles for the season.

    The Patriots on the other hand signed a UDFA to play that role for 4 games and 1 playoff and got .4 sacks a game. 3.2 tackles a game and 2 forced fumbles. That's still while getting a new starting OLB with the 2nd round pick.

    Simply we unfortunately have no idea or facts as to how Dunlap would have performed in the Patriots system or even how he would have been used.

    I actually thought they would take a shot on Dunlap when he slipped to them in the 2nd but based on everything I just wrote can't in good conscience say they made some sort of egregious error.


     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Faucetman. Show Faucetman's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    If u were impressed with Dunlap wait 'til you see what Quinn has to offer.... Absolute beast and the next Julius Peppers.. Not just because they both attended UNC... Cant wait until Draft day... Lets go PATS
    Posted by 617AcrossDaBoard

    I agree that the potential is there for Quinn.  I've heard that he gets to the edge quicker than Miller and with his 6-5, 258 frame he can do a better job of beating the defender with strength and speed.  I am really looking forward to seeing Quinn at the Combine.  Chances are he flies up draft boards and is out-of-reach by the time the draft gets here.  But, I will still be thrilled to death to land Watt at 17 so as long as we pick a front 7 D player, I'll be happy.

    However, trading down has been our theme of late and I could see us doing that with potentially all three of our first picks especially if an impact player that we want isn't there at 17.  I think Watt will be there so, right now I'm thinking we keep 17 and take him ahead of SD who might take him at 18.

    Pick 28 and 33 are prime trade down picks.  Every team below 28 needs an OG and if Pouncey is on the board, PIT might make the move.  3 of the 4 teams need an OT.  Then if you look at QB needy teams there are 5 of them picking ahead of our 17.  Chances are a run on QBs won't happen in the first round.  I bet Gabbert, Newton and maybe Mallett are taken before our 17 but the teams that wait out of BUF, ARI, TEN, WAS and MIN might want to move up.  Let's say BUF doesn't take a QB at 3 and they go with Fairley or Peterson.  They would probably want to go QB in the 2nd so WAS or MIN moves up to 33 for Locker or Kaepernick (who I think will rise the furthest by draft day).  Normally a 10 spot move in the early 2nd would net us just a high 4th but I think there will be a lot of action for 33 from the overnight dealing since there are certain to be a player or two that slipped into the 2nd that weren't expected.  I think we could net a 2012 2nd for the 10 spot or so slide.

    If there is a top team in the 2nd round that wants to get back in the 1st we could move from 28 to say 34 and pick up a high 4th (98).  Then we combo pick 60 and 98 and can move up to 49.  These are the types of moves we should expect.  We end up with

    2012 2nd
    17 
    34 
    43 
    49 
    74
    92
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Faucetman. Show Faucetman's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    How Martez Wilson finished last year.... Wilson finished the season leading the Illini with 112 tackles. That went along with 11.5 tackles for loss, four sacks, three forced fumbles and five passes defended. Not bad for an ILB, especially the 4 sacks and TFL's. It has been also reported he runs a sub 4.6, and may scouts believe he is best suited to play OLB in a 3-4. He is perfect BB size at 6'4", 250. Any takers?
    Posted by PatsLifer

    YES!!  I've mentioned this a few times.  Martez has the size/speed combo we want to play OLB.  At least he's played standing up his whole career.  For him to kick outside is a safer move than asking a 4-3 DE to move back, stand up and cover the flat.  If Martez can't make the move, we kick him inside next to Mayo where we now have two speed guys who are tackling machines.  Spikes becomes a goal line/short yardage specialist. 

    Martez is clearly the best ILB in the draft.  No team will touch him in the first round because not 1 team picking after KC at 21 has even a minor need at ILB.  But as we head back into the 2nd round, DEN, CIN, CLE, TEN, WAS and DET  could all consider him. 

    If we move around like I said in my last post we could do this.

    17.  DE JJ Watt
    34.  OLB/ILB Martez Wilson
    43.  RB Mikel LeShoure
    49.  WR Leonard Hankerson
    74.  OG Danny Watkins
    92.  DE/OLB Sam Acho
    124. OT Marcus Gilbert
    6C.  RB Mario Fannin

    Wilson and Watt are safe picks IMO.  If we add them to Bodden and Warren coming back our defense will improve greatly, maybe to top 10 status.  Watt gets into the backfield.  He may not have huge sack #s at 7, but has great TFL, lots of batted balls, plays with passion, etc.  Wilson is fast, big, tough and a sure tackler.  Worse case he plays next to Mayo and stays in on all downs allowing us to rotate in pass rushers.   Best case Wilson converts to OLB and uses that speed to get after the QB.  As a back-up plan, Sam Acho can rush the passer and play OLB.

    I like drafting a pair of play makers in LeShoure and Hankerson.  Both guys upgrade BJE and Tate.  Danny Watkins battles Connolly day one to be starting RG and he provides depth at LT while Gilbert adds depth to RT.  We keep Mankins long term and Light on a 1-2 year club option 3rd year deal.  Eventually Light goes, Vollmer moves over and Gilbert takes over at RT.
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15*** : I think that is the wrong question to ask. It would be Dunlap vs Cunningham not Watt. Watt would play 3-4 DE and not 3-4 OLB although he could also play 4-3 DE when you want to use that alignment. I don't think anyone ever envisioned Dunlap taking on double teams as a 3-4 DE. 1) Dunlap played his normal 4-3 DE position 2) Cunningham made the successful switch to 3-4 OLB and started. Dunlap may have as well but the fact is we do NOT KNOW. 3) Dunlap, per your posted comments from PFT, never started a single game - ZERO. He was used situationally only and never assumed the starting job, even playing his natural position. 4) Cunningham started 11 games and took over the fulltime starting job. 5) Starts aside, I don't know what the total number of plays differential was? 6) Dunlap beats Cunningham handily on sacks 9.5 vs 1.0 7) Cunningham beats Dunlap in Tackles. That's in total, solo and assists. 8) Dunlap had 3 passes defended to Cunninghams 1 and assume those are basically hand up blocks during a pass rush as I doubt Dunlap was ever asked to work in space as a 3-4 OLB would be doing as part of his responsibilities. 9) Cunningham had 2 forced fumbles while Dunlap had 0. 10) Age is basically a wash, Dunlap is a year younger i believe but both are just kids at 21 and 22. 11) Character, locker room presence, and fulltime motor (work ethic) goes to Cunningham obviously. 12) Drafted back to back. As a side note Cunningham avg. .79 sacks a game as a 4-3 DE situational pass rusher but cost a high 2nd round #54 draft pick. Avg. 2 tackles a game and no forced fumbles for the season. The Patriots on the other hand signed a UDFA to play that role for 4 games and 1 playoff and got .4 sacks a game. 3.2 tackles a game and 2 forced fumbles. That's still while getting a new starting OLB with the 2nd round pick. Simply we unfortunately have no idea or facts as to how Dunlap would have performed in the Patriots system or even how he would have been used. I actually thought they would take a shot on Dunlap when he slipped to them in the 2nd but based on everything I just wrote can't in good conscience say they made some sort of egregious error.
    Posted by Low-FB-IQ


    Low,
    Good post.  A lot of fans see a player's sack totals and automatically assume he's able to play 3-4 OLB in NE's scheme regardless of whether he fits there or not. To your point, he didn't look like a good fit as a two gap/5-tech either.
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15*** : YES!!  I've mentioned this a few times.  Martez has the size/speed combo we want to play OLB.  At least he's played standing up his whole career.  For him to kick outside is a safer move than asking a 4-3 DE to move back, stand up and cover the flat.  If Martez can't make the move, we kick him inside next to Mayo where we now have two speed guys who are tackling machines.  Spikes becomes a goal line/short yardage specialist.  Martez is clearly the best ILB in the draft.  No team will touch him in the first round because not 1 team picking after KC at 21 has even a minor need at ILB.  But as we head back into the 2nd round, DEN, CIN, CLE, TEN, WAS and DET  could all consider him.  If we move around like I said in my last post we could do this. 17.  DE JJ Watt 34.  OLB/ILB Martez Wilson 43.  RB Mikel LeShoure 49.  WR Leonard Hankerson 74.  OG Danny Watkins 92.  DE/OLB Sam Acho 124. OT Marcus Gilbert 6C.  RB Mario Fannin Wilson and Watt are safe picks IMO.  If we add them to Bodden and Warren coming back our defense will improve greatly, maybe to top 10 status.  Watt gets into the backfield.  He may not have huge sack #s at 7, but has great TFL, lots of batted balls, plays with passion, etc.  Wilson is fast, big, tough and a sure tackler.  Worse case he plays next to Mayo and stays in on all downs allowing us to rotate in pass rushers.   Best case Wilson converts to OLB and uses that speed to get after the QB.  As a back-up plan, Sam Acho can rush the passer and play OLB. I like drafting a pair of play makers in LeShoure and Hankerson.  Both guys upgrade BJE and Tate.  Danny Watkins battles Connolly day one to be starting RG and he provides depth at LT while Gilbert adds depth to RT.  We keep Mankins long term and Light on a 1-2 year club option 3rd year deal.  Eventually Light goes, Vollmer moves over and Gilbert takes over at RT.
    Posted by Faucetman


    Faucet...This is the best mock I have seen so far on this board, and I'm on board completely.
    Adding Watt and Wilson and getting back Warren and Bodden will make this defense incredible.

    As you state, for some reason Wilson doesn't convert to OLB (which I think he does), he can move inside next to Mayo and that's an instant upgrade over both Guyton and Spikes. We don't have to sub on 3rd down if we don't want and can mix coverages and looks on the fly.

    Worst case he doesn't pan out, I think Sam Acho will be a reliable OLB, much in the mold of Cunningham. Not superior, but solid and can probably notch a few sacks for us.

    The only point I may disagree with is "no team will touch him in the 1st round". Surely we can't be the only people thinking about moving him to OLB. If he has a great combine, he could shoot up to first round pretty quickly if people can see him playing OLB. But there are only 32 kids that can fit in round 1, so I can see a lot of 1st round talent being pushed into round 2, and this is where we should be heavy buyers.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Faucetman. Show Faucetman's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15*** : Im buying. I met this man in person, he was a senior in high school and i was a junior. We were at a 7 on 7 tournament, and he was by far THE BEST RECEIVER in the entire tournament. his size and speed were evident. He was very confident, but humble as well. during a water break, he was standing right next to me, and i asked him if he also played defense, he said "yea i play defensive end..im aight" Later that day i saw on scout.com that he was ranked 2nd in the entire nation at defensive end. Freakish speed for his size, his senior year he had 90+ tackles with 30+ tackle for loss and 15+ sacks.. he was on a different level. I wasnt too high on Ron Zook's decision to plug him at inside linebacker but he proved to be productive at that position as well...i think hes a natural pass rusher, with certainly above average coverage skills. I predict he will be top 5 fastest linebackers in this years cobine. for sure
    Posted by Patsfan24-7

    That's a great story!!  I didn't realize he played DE as well as WR in HS.  I think he could certainly play 3-4 OLB now.  Martez Wilson is quickly becoming my favorite choice for our 1st pick of the 2nd round. 
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Faucetman. Show Faucetman's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15*** : Faucet...This is the best mock I have seen so far on this board, and I'm on board completely. Adding Watt and Wilson and getting back Warren and Bodden will make this defense incredible. As you state, for some reason Wilson doesn't convert to OLB (which I think he does), he can move inside next to Mayo and that's an instant upgrade over both Guyton and Spikes. We don't have to sub on 3rd down if we don't want and can mix coverages and looks on the fly. Worst case he doesn't pan out, I think Sam Acho will be a reliable OLB, much in the mold of Cunningham. Not superior, but solid and can probably notch a few sacks for us. The only point I may disagree with is "no team will touch him in the 1st round". Surely we can't be the only people thinking about moving him to OLB. If he has a great combine, he could shoot up to first round pretty quickly if people can see him playing OLB. But there are only 32 kids that can fit in round 1, so I can see a lot of 1st round talent being pushed into round 2, and this is where we should be heavy buyers.
    Posted by PatsLifer

    Wow, thanks Lifer.  I figured I'd take some heat for mocking a pair of play makers early on.

    As for Wilson, I originally had him in the 20s on my board but then saw him only as an ILB.  But if it appears he can play outside, you're correct in that a lot of teams picking in the lower half of the first round could use an OLB, the Jets and GB in particular.  Imagine him opposite Matthews?  I don't want to see that.  Maybe we should take him at 28 and trade back 33.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrustBill. Show TrustBill's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15*** : Low, Good post.  A lot of fans see a player's sack totals and automatically assume he's able to play 3-4 OLB in NE's scheme regardless of whether he fits there or not. To your point, he didn't look like a good fit as a two gap/5-tech either.
    Posted by mbeaulieu07


    If you happen to have unique players like Seymour and McGinnest, you can play NE's style of 3-4 defense.  If you can't acquire players like those two, do you tweak your scheme to best utilize the unique talent like Dunlap and create mismatch in a different way?  If you prelude talents that are unique in their own ways but do not fit your profiles, doesn't it put you in an disadvantageous position?
     
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