2011 Patriots Draft Options ***THANKS TO ALL WHO CONTRIBUTED!***

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    The only quesion I have with Wilson is can he switch to OLB in a 3-4 system? What I mean is that it's easier for a DE to switch to a pass rushing OLB in a 3-4, which is why so many are converted, but it's rare you see a player who can play ILB and OLB. It's easier for a ILB to become a OLB in a 4-3. They are 2 different positions with completely different responsibilities and most players find it difficult to switch between the 2 (see A. Thomas). He has all the physical tools but I'd still be concerned.

    I guess the best example I can give are safeties. As in switching from a FS to a CB is similar to a DE switching to OLB. Essentially the role is the same where FS's aren't as quick as most CB's but they do have coverage skills and can cover WR's. For DE's they might swing out to cover the flat every so often but there main goal is to get to the QB same as OLB's with the exception that the amount they need to cover TE's and RB's is increased. However Converting a SS to FS is not an easy task since instead of being asked to play mainly inside the box watching for the run and being asked to play middle zone but never really coverage. ILB tend to work the same way being asked to focus on the gaps watching for the run and cover the middle of the field or rushing those gaps in passing plays. Moving them to an area where they might have to cover routes and play outside the box might be a bit of a challenge if they are use to playing in that box zone.

    I'm not saying he can't translate but if that was my thinking I'm bring him in for a private workout and see A) if he can recognize screens, flat out routes, and TE delayed releases B) run him through some OLB drills and see if he can think outside the box as it were. 
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

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    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15*** : If you happen to have unique players like Seymour and McGinnest, you can play NE's style of 3-4 defense.  If you can't acquire players like those two, do you tweak your scheme to best utilize the unique talent like Dunlap and create mismatch in a different way?  If you prelude talents that are unique in their own ways but do not fit your profiles, doesn't it put you in an disadvantageous position?
    Posted by TrustBill


    I don't think BB will go out of his way to build his defense around players that do not fit his defensive scheme/philosophy.  In other words, I don't see him drafting a player like Dunlap with the idea that he'll revamp his scheme in order to fit him in, instead, he drafts players that he feels are a fit for what he's looking to do.
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15*** : I don't think BB will go out of his way to build his defense around players that do not fit his defensive scheme/philosophy.  In other words, I don't see him drafting a player like Dunlap with the idea that he'll revamp his scheme in order to fit him in, instead, he drafts players that he feels are a fit for what he's looking to do.
    Posted by mbeaulieu07


    And the results on the defensive side have not been pretty for the last two or three years.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    The only quesion I have with Wilson is can he switch to OLB in a 3-4 system? What I mean is that it's easier for a DE to switch to a pass rushing OLB in a 3-4, which is why so many are converted, but it's rare you see a player who can play ILB and OLB. It's easier for a ILB to become a OLB in a 4-3. They are 2 different positions with completely different responsibilities and most players find it difficult to switch between the 2 (see A. Thomas). He has all the physical tools but I'd still be concerned. I guess the best example I can give are safeties. As in switching from a FS to a CB is similar to a DE switching to OLB. Essentially the role is the same where FS's aren't as quick as most CB's but they do have coverage skills and can cover WR's. For DE's they might swing out to cover the flat every so often but there main goal is to get to the QB same as OLB's with the exception that the amount they need to cover TE's and RB's is increased. However Converting a SS to FS is not an easy task since instead of being asked to play mainly inside the box watching for the run and being asked to play middle zone but never really coverage. ILB tend to work the same way being asked to focus on the gaps watching for the run and cover the middle of the field or rushing those gaps in passing plays. Moving them to an area where they might have to cover routes and play outside the box might be a bit of a challenge if they are use to playing in that box zone. I'm not saying he can't translate but if that was my thinking I'm bring him in for a private workout and see A) if he can recognize screens, flat out routes, and TE delayed releases B) run him through some OLB drills and see if he can think outside the box as it were. 
    Posted by PatsEng


    I think it is a projection just like anything else. I would agree with you when you say generally that you see more conversion and success from 4-3 DE to 3-4 OLB....We can point to a number of guys that have done it successfully. I also realilze you don't see many ILB's to OLB, so the sample size to look at is small to begin with....agree..AThomas is a decent example, but he and Wilson are different players in terms of their physical makeup to begin with. Wilson is simply better shaped physically for the OLB position.

    However, when thinking about Wilson,you also don't see many ILB's with the size/speed/strength that Wilson has. He already stands up, is use to taking on Guards and other OL, is good in coverage (which 4-3 DE's typically don't do), has good tackling fundamentals open field and can play the run (shed blockers, get to runner). Most mocks sites and analysts that I have researched have said Wilson is a natural to move to OLB. In fact, he probably should have started there to begin with.
    Will he have to be taught the finer points of the position you note above? Sure, but I guess you can say the same thing for any 4-3 DE converting.  
    I think Wilson's ramp time is shorter in some ways, but this is just my opinion.
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

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    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15*** : And the results on the defensive side have not been pretty for the last two or three years.
    Posted by TrustBill


    I'm not sure how drafting players that don't fit your scheme would improve things.
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

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    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15*** : Wow, thanks Lifer.  I figured I'd take some heat for mocking a pair of play makers early on. As for Wilson, I originally had him in the 20s on my board but then saw him only as an ILB.  But if it appears he can play outside, you're correct in that a lot of teams picking in the lower half of the first round could use an OLB, the Jets and GB in particular.  Imagine him opposite Matthews?  I don't want to see that.  Maybe we should take him at 28 and trade back 33.
    Posted by Faucetman


     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    Why is everyone so enamored w/the Martez Wilson LB out of Illinois he had a neck injury & missed almost an entire MCF Season.  The last time we drafted a LB w/neck injuries it turned out to be Andy Katzenmoyer & we all know how that turned out.  If the Pats did draft Wilson it shouldn't be any higher than a 4th Rd pick b/c of his injury concerns.  A LB probably has one of the highest likelyhoods of a repeat injury b/c LB's do alot of the Tackling especially in the Pats 3-4 Def.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15*** : I think it is a projection just like anything else. I would agree with you when you say generally that you see more conversion and success from 4-3 DE to 3-4 OLB....We can point to a number of guys that have done it successfully. I also realilze you don't see many ILB's to OLB, so the sample size to look at is small to begin with....agree..AThomas is a decent example, but he and Wilson are different players in terms of their physical makeup to begin with. Wilson is simply better shaped physically for the OLB position. However, when thinking about Wilson,you also don't see many ILB's with the size/speed/strength that Wilson has. He already stands up, is use to taking on Guards and other OL, is good in coverage (which 4-3 DE's typically don't do), has good tackling fundamentals open field and can play the run (shed blockers, get to runner). Most mocks sites and analysts that I have researched have said Wilson is a natural to move to OLB. In fact, he probably should have started there to begin with. Will he have to be taught the finer points of the position you note above? Sure, but I guess you can say the same thing for any 4-3 DE converting.   I think Wilson's ramp time is shorter in some ways, but this is just my opinion.
    Posted by PatsLifer


    Ohh I'm not disagreeing with the possibility. Out of all the ILB he would be the most realistic to make the change. I'm just concern with a person who should naturally be placed in the olb spot why did they keep him inside? The biggest knock most have on him is that he gets caught up running into the pile and needs to use his speed to get back into the play. That's one thing that I'm most concerned about when you talk about a OLB. If they can't properly read a TE release, a RB flat, or a screen and over pursue the QB it leads to big plays. That's my major concern with him. As for most draft sites I think they are seeing what you are. That he has all the tangible numbers to move to OLB and it seems like a natural move but until you run him through some of those drills and sit him in front of tape to see what he see's as a play develops outside of that normal ILB box you won't ever know (which unfortunately for fans we'll never get to do that to him). If the Pats think he can transition and draft him I would be confident that they did their homework and I would love the pick honestly, but I have trouble picturing him being that pass rushing specialist on the outside edge that we need. Maybe if we didn't have Cunningham and needed a 3 down OLB that can drop back and on occasion rush but I still have questions whether he can get to a QB or not. That's another reason 4-3 DE's are easier converts, because they usually have multiple moves to beat T's on the outside or inside when rushing verses ILB's usually are prone to ether bull rushes or using speed to shot the gap. I'd be interested to watch some vid's on his rushing ability though and see if he has enough moves to beat T's not just G's.
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15*** : And the results on the defensive side have not been pretty for the last two or three years.
    Posted by TrustBill



    I would agree that they are not where any of us would like.

    You have to hope or have faith that the rebuilding will be coming into its own in the next couple years.

    Even with that being said and a change in progress young D the Pats won 14 games and ranked 8th in points/G at 19.6.

    In 2009 the D and whole team chemistry was a mess. In 08 we did not make the playoffs. 2007 the D gave up 17 pts/g. You hold a team to 17 then you have to win the game in this era of scoring in the NFL. It took a miracle catch, non holding call and missed INT by Asante. The real issue is that it was an epic fail by that prolific offense and Josh McD, as well as BB and not the D or Hobbs and Asante.

    All 4 years the Patriots went to the superbowl the D avg. 17pts/g or fewer. They won 3 of them.

    2007 D avg 17pts/g, ranked 4th and gave up 17 in superbowl and LOST
    2004 D avg 16.3pts/g, ranked 2nd and gave up 21 in superbowl and WON
    2003 D avg 14.9pts/g, ranked 1st and gave up 29 in superbowl and WON
    2001 D avg 17pts/g, ranked 3rd and gave up 17 in superbowl and WON


    So the two years in the superbowl where the D had the best pts/g allowed they gave up more than their avg and still won but the 2 years they only gave up their in season avg they split 1-1. Go Figure.

    2010 playoff loss to Jets 28-21

    Pats O avg 32.4pts/g.
    Pats D avg 19.6pts/g.

    Seems the Pats O underachieved greater than the Pats D compared to their in season avgs. Pats O scored 11.4 fewer pts than avg. Pats D gave up 8.4 more points than avg.

    So in 2010 The Pats revamped and played with an extremely young D and without two of its starters from day one. The D gave up 2.6pts/g more than the magic number they have needed historically to reach a superbowl and ranked 8th out of 32 teams.

    That doesn't sound like all that bad of a first step of a rebuilding process on D to me. Add your two starters back, any additions via free agency, any additions via the draft, and an additional year of experience under the youngsters belts and they can probably make up that 2.6pts/g next year if they stay healthy.

    Oh and just for information sake. 2006 the epic fail in the championship game vs INDY was the best D they ever had for pts/g allowed at 14.8.
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15*** : YES!!  I've mentioned this a few times.  Martez has the size/speed combo we want to play OLB.  At least he's played standing up his whole career.  For him to kick outside is a safer move than asking a 4-3 DE to move back, stand up and cover the flat.  If Martez can't make the move, we kick him inside next to Mayo where we now have two speed guys who are tackling machines.  Spikes becomes a goal line/short yardage specialist.  Martez is clearly the best ILB in the draft.  No team will touch him in the first round because not 1 team picking after KC at 21 has even a minor need at ILB.  But as we head back into the 2nd round, DEN, CIN, CLE, TEN, WAS and DET  could all consider him.  If we move around like I said in my last post we could do this. 17.  DE JJ Watt 34.  OLB/ILB Martez Wilson 43.  RB Mikel LeShoure 49.  WR Leonard Hankerson 74.  OG Danny Watkins 92.  DE/OLB Sam Acho 124. OT Marcus Gilbert 6C.  RB Mario Fannin Wilson and Watt are safe picks IMO.  If we add them to Bodden and Warren coming back our defense will improve greatly, maybe to top 10 status.  Watt gets into the backfield.  He may not have huge sack #s at 7, but has great TFL, lots of batted balls, plays with passion, etc.  Wilson is fast, big, tough and a sure tackler.  Worse case he plays next to Mayo and stays in on all downs allowing us to rotate in pass rushers.   Best case Wilson converts to OLB and uses that speed to get after the QB.  As a back-up plan, Sam Acho can rush the passer and play OLB. I like drafting a pair of play makers in LeShoure and Hankerson.  Both guys upgrade BJE and Tate.  Danny Watkins battles Connolly day one to be starting RG and he provides depth at LT while Gilbert adds depth to RT.  We keep Mankins long term and Light on a 1-2 year club option 3rd year deal.  Eventually Light goes, Vollmer moves over and Gilbert takes over at RT.
    Posted by Faucetman

    like this faucet,
        wilson's injury question aside, it meets most of the needs i've stipulated.

     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    AFC East draft season: Who needs what?

    February, 9, 2011      By Tim Graham (ESPN)

    New England Patriots

    Pick: 17th and 28th.

    Consensus needs: Outside linebacker, offensive line, running back, defensive end.

    Analysis: The Patriots have a pair of first-round choices to address their needs. They also have two picks each in the second and third rounds. With so much inventory to wheel and deal, it's hard to speculate what Bill Belichick will do or where he will end up picking within the first couple rounds.

    None of the four analysts prioritized the same top position for New England, but all of them ranked outside linebacker among their top three needs.

    Nawrocki was specific in stating the Patriots need a five-technique defensive end, although veteran Ty Warren is returning from a hip injury that sidelined him for 2010.

    Bunting's emphasis was on a do-it-all running back. BenJarvus Green-Ellis had a nice campaign as the AFC East's lone 1,000-yard rusher, but he's not a threat in the passing game. Danny Woodhead is a top-notch complementary player, but he doesn't have the size to be a workhorse.

    Three of the four analysts viewed New England's offensive line as an issue dependent upon the ability to re-sign Pro Bowl guard Logan Mankins and ambiguity over the futures of veteran left tackle Matt Light and right guard Stephen Neal.

    "Light has been a solid bookend for the past 10 years, but he turns 33 this offseason, and explosive edge rushers gave him problems last year," Muench said. "It's also worth pointing out that New England wants its young tight ends making plays downfield and not helping in pass protection."

    Who could be there: Pass-rushers always are a hot commodity, and this year is no different. Defensive ends and outside linebackers can be difficult to sort because teams will project them into different roles. UCLA outside linebacker Akeem Ayers and Missouri outside linebacker Aldon Smith are strong possibilities. It's foreseeable New England will be considering the fifth or sixth best defensive end on its board at No. 17 -- if you believe the Patriots will keep that pick, of course. Purdue's Ryan Kerrigan and Wisconsin's J.J. Watt project in that range. Illinois running back Mikel Leshoure is considered second in this year's class behind Ingram.
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    I must have missed something. Ive followed this thread for a long time,read every post and learned a great deal. However about 50 pages ago I saw Wilsons name for the first time and there was a link that I went to and saw a terrible performance by Wilson. He missed tackles , didnt wrap up, and all in all, looked awful. I commented on this but no one agreed or disagreed but that clip showed me nothing
     

     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15*** : mbeaulieu, I figured someone would catch onto my QB rankings after a while, and after reading your stuff, I knew it would be you, and rightfully so on your part. Contrary to the popular opinion, I think the top 4 QB's really won't be the top 4 QB, looking back on this 10 years from now (Gabbert, Mallett, Newton, Locker). I think that Mallett is just a mess, I have gotten other draftniks and other buddies who follow closely also in agreement on Mallett. People fall in love with his big arm too much, and forget a multitude of things. The kid is a wreck off the field, and has many problems including a rumored drug problem recently. He is a clubhouse cancer waiting to happen and his attitude reminds me of Phillip Rivers who I hate for that also. Mallett has horribly decision making and poor accuracy on a good deal of throws, but people are wowed by his size and arm. Now to your question about Dalton at #1, Ponder #2, Locker #3, Gabbert #4. I think Dalton just has what it takes to succeed in this league, I may be wrong, draft "experts" make wrong calls every year, and this is simply just my opinion. This isn't how I view them to go in the draft but who I personally think will be best. I think that Dalton has it all like I said. He may not have the strong arm or the great size, but he has 3 things I look for first in a quarterback. Accuracy, Leader, Winner. The kid flat out knows how to get it done, and watching the Wisconsin tape especially, in his biggest game as a collegiate athlete, he made every throw. He doesn't have the ideal size or big arm that scouts love, but the kid will get it done wherever he goes, again just my opinion. Ponder, I think will be a great West Coast QB, again he doesn't have the big arm, but he can make all the throws with accuracy and I have heard that he was a great guy and leader of a team, which is always a bonus. Ponder and same with Dalton will both be 2nd round guys but I think they are the 2 best in this class. Now on to Locker, who has exceptional talent, but when I look at QB, one of the things I look at is accuracy and that is clearly where he is lacking which leads me to drop him down from what his talent suggests. If Locker gets the right coach and a few years under a good QB, I think he can be special, but I don't  like him as a guy that can start right away. While Dalton and maybe Ponder, I think can. Now onto your biggest question of why Gabbert all the way at #4. Personally, I think he has gotten overrated in the wake of Luck choosing to stay in school, and jumped onto the scene too fast. Don't get me wrong, Gabbert has a good arm, great size, and decent athleticism, but he wasn't a big producer at Missouri and still work to do before I'd be comfortable riding him out there on Sundays, not to say it can't be done with good coaching again, but it needs to be done. He comes out of a spreaad offense so his footwork will need to be worked on, and if he can prove at the Combine that he has solid footwork, I may move him up a bit, cause that is always a big thing coming out of the spread. I also think Gabbert is just too inconsisent, I have only watched a few games of him, but I think he needs to improve accuracy and the deep ball too. I think he would have been better off staying in school and improving his skills, and be a lock to be a top 10 pick along with Luck next year. Again just my opinion, but that's what I believe at this point. Another point on me with QB's. I don't nessacarily want a big guy with a big arm. As far as arm strength goes, I see if he can make all the throws, he doesn't need to be overly impressive doing so but if he can have accuracy throwing the deep ball, the posts, the dig routes, etc, etc. Then I look at his accuracy, which is the biggest thing for me, I need to not only make sure you can make the throws but be accurate. If that checks out, then I look at how he is as a leader, if he was a winner, if he is a good guy from what coaches say. All things should be a factor in deciding the future of the QB position for your team. ---- As for Lutrus, I got the pleasure of watching him, Lawrence Wilson, and Greg Lloyd play at UConn over their careers, and all are very solid talents, that should make NFL rosters, especially Lutrus and Wilson. Lutrus, just has the "it" factor too me. He may not be overly athletic, but the guy makes plays and does it often. The reason his productivity went down his final 2 years was because of injuries, which will be big for him. The kid has high character and a great work ethic. He will never be a flashy guy who runs fast, or jumps high, but he will get it done. At worst he is a contributor in sub packages and on Special Teams. At best he is a 4 down player, who can start at ILB for you for 10 years. I tend to lean towards the latter, with him playing 10 years, and being a great mid-late round pick for a team. He won't be the 3 ILB off the board, but I think he has the potential to be that good, and maybe better when all is said and done. I like guys who are captains, hard workers, and good character, that is 3 big things for me. Give him a chance, and I doubt he disapoints.
    Posted by sportslover21


    sl,
    I agree with your disertation in regards to what BB appears to value in a QB, smart, accurate, leader, winner with enough arm strength to make all the throws.  I also believe these attributes are what make Greg McElroy a potential target for BB in the later rounds (5-6).   

    On a side note, I agree that Mallet is a mess and hope some teams burns a top 16 pick on him, forcing another quality player to drop.
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    GOod to hear a response mb16. I am not only talking about Patriots characteristics but BB holds stock in much of what I do in QB. So McElroy is my favorite guy for Pats to draft late, I think he is a stud in the making. Smart, captain, make all the throws, great accuracy, room for growth.

    Dalton -- Patriot or no Patriot -- I just think is the best QB that will be in the draft looking back on it.
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    Just some thoughts running through my head. If we can get 1 of these players in each of these positions, I think our defense is vastly improved. Not saying we will get the best at each or even one of the best in either category. But if we can somehow get 1 of each of these groups I feel we are better team, by far.

    3-4 DE (5 - Tech)

    Nick Fairley
    Marcell Dareus
    JJ Watt
    Cameron Jordan
    Cameron Heyward
    Muhammed Wilkerson

    Obviously the first 2 are out of the picture in all likelyhood leaving, the last 4, which I think if we grab any, specifically the last 3, at either 17 (Jordan) or 28/33 (Heyward/Wilkerson), I think our DLine becomes that much better and improves the whole defense.

    3-4 OLB

    Robert Quinn
    Von Miller
    Ryan Kerrigan
    Brooks Reed
    Aldon Smith
    Justin Houston

    At 17 or 28 depending on how we work DE and OLB. I think we need to grab one of these guys, as does everyone else. I don't think Miller is a fit, but if he is there, you can't pass him up, he plays good enough against the run, to have his superior pass rushing ability trump that and make him worth it big time at #17. I think Robert Quinn has to be at the top of the list. Followed by Kerrigan, Houston, Reed, Smith. I wouldn't draft Reed higher then Smith, but would rather have Reed later then Smith early. I wouldn't mind getting 2 of these guys. One at 17, and then Reed at 33 or maybe get lucky at 60.

    I like to see this at the moment for the Patriots

    #17 -- Ryan Kerrigan, OLB, Purdue
    #28 -- Cameron Heyward, DE, Ohio State
    #33 -- Ben Ijalana, OT, Villanova
    #60 -- Mark Herzlich, LB, Boston College
    #74 -- John Moffitt, OG, Wisconsin
    #92 --  Niles Paul, WR, Nebraska
    4th -- Jalil Brown, CB, Colorado
    5th -- Bilal Powell, RB, Louisville
    6th -- Greg McElroy, QB, Alabama


    We address, OLB, ILB/OLB, DE, OT, OG, CB, WR, RB and a camp QB in this draft and get great picks all around. Kerrigan will be a high motor guy who will get it done wherever he goes. Heyward will be stout against the run, and we sacrifice a little pass rush, knowing we already have Kerrigan in our pockets. We pick a great OT with 1st round ability at 33, from a smaller school, who can come in and play RT right away if need be (really depends on Mankins and Light). We then grab Herzlich who is just a player, and is still recovering from cancer, if he ever even gets to 75% his old self, he will be a great player for us for a good while, and I bet on him becoming great once again, can play inside and outside for us, depending on down and situation. Next we grab Moffitt, will be a 10 year starter at OG, and get a steal in the 3rd round where he will be picked. He is a mauler, with a mean streak and a guy that will find a great home at RG, hopefully opposite Mankins for years. Next we grab our bigger, more physical WR in Niles Paul, which we are lacking to compete in camp, likely won't get much playing time year #1 like Price, but in future will be a good player beyond. Then we go for Jalil Brown who I think will be a very very good player in this league, a bigger bodied guy, who is great in man coverage and can press, will be a good nickel contributor in his first few years. With an aresenal of Bodden, McCourty, Butler, Arrington, Brown -- we will be set for a while. Then we grab Bilal Powell (a personall favorite of mine), who is a quick guy who sees the hole and hits it, and will be a very good situational back who I think has the potential to be an everydown back, especially in our system. Lastly another favorite of mine, Greg McElroy who is smart, captain, good accuracy and has the arm to make all the throws with some zip, and will be a starter in this league some day, I GURANTEE IT!!!

    Anyways just some thoughts for now.
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15*** : I would agree that they are not where any of us would like. You have to hope or have faith that the rebuilding will be coming into its own in the next couple years. Even with that being said and a change in progress young D the Pats won 14 games and ranked 8th in points/G at 19.6. In 2009 the D and whole team chemistry was a mess. In 08 we did not make the playoffs. 2007 the D gave up 17 pts/g. You hold a team to 17 then you have to win the game in this era of scoring in the NFL. It took a miracle catch, non holding call and missed INT by Asante. The real issue is that it was an epic fail by that prolific offense and Josh McD, as well as BB and not the D or Hobbs and Asante. All 4 years the Patriots went to the superbowl the D avg. 17pts/g or fewer. They won 3 of them. 2007 D avg 17pts/g, ranked 4th and gave up 17 in superbowl and LOST 2004 D avg 16.3pts/g, ranked 2nd and gave up 21 in superbowl and WON 2003 D avg 14.9pts/g, ranked 1st and gave up 29 in superbowl and WON 2001 D avg 17pts/g, ranked 3rd and gave up 17 in superbowl and WON So the two years in the superbowl where the D had the best pts/g allowed they gave up more than their avg and still won but the 2 years they only gave up their in season avg they split 1-1. Go Figure. 2010 playoff loss to Jets 28-21 Pats O avg 32.4pts/g. Pats D avg 19.6pts/g. Seems the Pats O underachieved greater than the Pats D compared to their in season avgs. Pats O scored 11.4 fewer pts than avg. Pats D gave up 8.4 more points than avg. So in 2010 The Pats revamped and played with an extremely young D and without two of its starters from day one. The D gave up 2.6pts/g more than the magic number they have needed historically to reach a superbowl and ranked 8th out of 32 teams. That doesn't sound like all that bad of a first step of a rebuilding process on D to me. Add your two starters back, any additions via free agency, any additions via the draft, and an additional year of experience under the youngsters belts and they can probably make up that 2.6pts/g next year if they stay healthy. Oh and just for information sake. 2006 the epic fail in the championship game vs INDY was the best D they ever had for pts/g allowed at 14.8.
    Posted by Low-FB-IQ

    I'm a stats guy so loved this post IQ.  Trying to advance far in the play-offs with the 25th ranked defense isn't going to work because high powered offenses usually don't trump top defenses.  We learned that when we beat the Colts in the play-offs in the early 2000s, the game Ty Law picked off Manning 3 times.  Everyone thought there was no way we could slow down that high powered offense.  We learned that again against the Giants in the 2007 SB.  We set every offensive record known to man and managed just 14 points, our lowest total by far of the season.

    Defense wins championships.  Our defense is young and will improve especially with Warren and Bodden coming back.  Maybe we should make a play for Tamba Hali of the Chiefs.  They took one of our OLBs so we should return the favor.  The man had 14.5 sacks last year and 2 in their play-off loss to Baltimore.  The Chiefs will probably tag him unless Pioli doesn't have the money or desire to invest so much in a player who isn't the QB.
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    I talked myself into it.  We sign Mankins, let Light walk and sign Tamba Hali.  We should have the money to do both.  Now we draft the below.

    F/A OLB Tamba Hali (KC)
    17.  DE JJ Watt
    28.  OT Gabe Carimi, move Seabass to LT, Carimi to RT
    33.  RB Mikel LeShoure
    60.  FS Quinton Carter
    74.  C/OG John Moffitt
    92.  WR Terrence Toliver

    Rest of the draft?  Who cares?

    If Tamba can even come close to the 16.5 sacks he had this season counting their play-off loss, problem solved at OLB.  We talked about Watt and Carimi to death.  LeShoure beats out BJGE.  He's bigger, faster, more explosive, has better hands, etc, etc.  What a nice luxury having the division's only 1,000 yard rusher coming off the bench.

    Carter is the best FS in the draft.  He's got decent size, 6-1, 211.  We aren't going to pay Meriweather big bucks in 2012, so we should start grooming his replacement now.  We talked about Moffitt to death.  He could beat out Connolly or Koppen if he's half the player I think he is.  Besides, word is he is a funny guy and would be great in the locker room.  Toliver hasn't been talked about much but he's 6-5, 211 and rumor is he runs in the 4.4s and was pretty productive at LSU. 
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    top edge rushers - fyi 

    Robert Quinn's upside impressive 

    February, 3, 2011

    By Steve Muench

    The upcoming Super Bowl matchup between the Green Bay Packers and Pittsburgh Steelersfeatures a pair of explosive 3-4 edge rushers in the Packers' Clay Matthews (first round, 2009) and the Steelers' LaMarr Woodley (second round, 2007).

     

     

    Their ability to generate pressure on the quarterback makes everyone around them better, and the extra attention they demand creates one-on-one opportunities for other pass rushers. Matthews and Woodley also make life easier for the pass coverage by forcing quarterbacks to make quick decisions and off-balance throws.

     

     

    So who in the 2011 draft class could make a similar impact in the NFL? Here's a look at three edge rushers who could develop into stars for teams running base 3-4 defenses, all of whom are underclassmen.

     

     

     

    [+] EnlargeRobert Quinn
    Tim Steadman/Icon SMIRobert Quinn's ability to put quarterbacks on the ground gives him all kinds of potential.

    North Carolina DE/OLB Robert Quinn(Scouts Inc. grade: 96)
    The NCAA declared Quinn permanently ineligible and he missed the entire season in 2010 after accepting improper benefits, and because underclassmen don't take part in postseason all-star games it's been more than a year since Quinn took the field. He still projects as a first-round pick, though, because of his rare pass-rushing potential.

     

     

    While he could line up at right end in a base four-man front, Quinn lacks ideal size for the position and he gets engulfed at times by offensive tackles. On the other hand, he has the upper-body strength and plays with enough leverage to set the edge if moved to outside linebacker in a three-man front.

     

     

    More importantly, he has the burst to beat offensive tackles off the snap and the flexibility/balance to bend back inside when the tackle fails to get his hands on Quinn. There are concerns about Quinn's ability to counter when he doesn't win with his first move but he can work to improve in this area. The bottom line is that his explosiveness and closing speed can't be coached and he has all the tools to excel once he shakes off the rust.

     

     

    Missouri DE/OLB Aldon Smith (91)
    Smith lined up at defensive end for the Tigers and has the frame to develop into a starter there, and at times Missouri even kicked him inside to defensive tackle where his quickness overwhelmed interior offensive linemen. He may not jump out as a likely candidate for a change in position but Smith's best fit at the next level very well could be at 3-4 outside linebacker.

     

     

    Smith is high-cut, which is to say he has a relatively high center of gravity that hinders his ability to sink his hips when anchoring against the run. However, he does however flash a powerful punch and excels at slipping blocks with his lateral quickness, so he should be more effective against the run at outside linebacker.

     

     

    After seeing his athletic ability jump out on film I'm confident Smith can make the transition, especially given his active hands as a pass rusher. He can knock the offensive tackle's hands down before they get on his frame, and Smith can also knock tackles off-balance with a powerful punch before redirecting. As a result of all that he carries a late-first round grade at this point.

     

     

    Georgia DE/OLB Justin Houston (91)
    Houton also comes with concerns about his ability to anchor against the run as a traditional 4-3 defensive end, but he has experience lining up at outside linebacker in a 3-4 so scouts already know he can drop into underneath coverage and hold his own.

     

     

    Scouts would like him to be more versatile as a pass rusher and he will have to develop effective counter moves to realize his substantial potential, but Houston does have the initial burst to run around offensive tackles when he gets off the ball quickly. He also looks to strip the ball when he gets to the quarterback and generally gets his hands into throwing lanes when he sees he won't get to the quarterback in time. Houston also grades out late in the first round.

     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    Kiper(yeah i know) unimpresssed with martez wilson.


    Martez Wilson...what are your thoughts about him? You have him at #1 in your position rankings but didn't elaborate on his draft stock. Thanks Mel!

    Mel Kiper
      (1:28 PM)


    "He's at the top of a very subpar ILB group this year. He didn't have much productivity until this year. He really came on this year. He had a neck injury in 2009. He wasn't off the charts great this year, but he developed into a very good starting ILB. 100 tackles this year, 10.5 for loss, 3 sacks, 3 forced fumbles. With another year at Illinois, he could have made a move into the first round. Depending on his workouts, he could go as high as 2-3 round."

     

    i'm still wanting the demon pass rushing olb

     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    Kiper(yeah i know) unimpresssed with martez wilson. Martez Wilson...what are your thoughts about him? You have him at #1 in your position rankings but didn't elaborate on his draft stock. Thanks Mel! Mel Kiper   (1:28 PM) "He's at the top of a very subpar ILB group this year. He didn't have much productivity until this year. He really came on this year. He had a neck injury in 2009. He wasn't off the charts great this year, but he developed into a very good starting ILB. 100 tackles this year, 10.5 for loss, 3 sacks, 3 forced fumbles. With another year at Illinois, he could have made a move into the first round. Depending on his workouts, he could go as high as 2-3 round."   i'm still wanting the demon pass rushing olb
    Posted by cbdam


    100 tackles, 10.5 tackles for loss, 3 sacks, 3 ff seems like a pretty darn good year to me for an ILB regardless of year drafted. Perhaps we could see a progression in play or continuity if he played in 2009, but injury sidelined him. This is the risk with Wilson. Is he a 1 year wonder, or can he consistenly put up these numbers? A projection to play OLB for sure. Can he play inside and is he an upgrade over Guyton, Spikes and Fletcher?

    I still like this kid. Not enough to draft him in round 1 or top of round 2, but perhaps someplace late mid-later round 2, but this is only if BB thinks he can convert this kid to OLB. Otherwise for where we can have him, I would rather make a play for Brooks Reed.
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    I talked myself into it.  We sign Mankins, let Light walk and sign Tamba Hali.  We should have the money to do both.  Now we draft the below. F/A OLB Tamba Hali (KC) 17.  DE JJ Watt 28.  OT Gabe Carimi, move Seabass to LT, Carimi to RT 33.  RB Mikel LeShoure 60.  FS Quinton Carter 74.  C/OG John Moffitt 92.  WR Terrence Toliver Rest of the draft?  Who cares? If Tamba can even come close to the 16.5 sacks he had this season counting their play-off loss, problem solved at OLB.  We talked about Watt and Carimi to death.  LeShoure beats out BJGE.  He's bigger, faster, more explosive, has better hands, etc, etc.  What a nice luxury having the division's only 1,000 yard rusher coming off the bench. Carter is the best FS in the draft.  He's got decent size, 6-1, 211.  We aren't going to pay Meriweather big bucks in 2012, so we should start grooming his replacement now.  We talked about Moffitt to death.  He could beat out Connolly or Koppen if he's half the player I think he is.  Besides, word is he is a funny guy and would be great in the locker room.  Toliver hasn't been talked about much but he's 6-5, 211 and rumor is he runs in the 4.4s and was pretty productive at LSU. 
    Posted by Faucetman

    hey faucet,

    ok this new one  meets my needs even better than the previous one you posted:

          17.    DE JJ Watt
    34.  OLB/ILB Martez Wilson
    43.  RB Mikel LeShoure
    49.  WR Leonard Hankerson
    74.  OG Danny Watkins
    92.  DE/OLB Sam Acho
    124. OT Marcus Gilbert
    6C.  RB Mario Fannin


    in that you pick up the reliable pass rush in tali (hoping kc doesnt tag him) and we get  a cba.

    you get the tall good free safety i need.

    with tali in, we dont need aldon smith as much, so we can go watt

    i like hankerson much more than tolliver, but he is tall and a true wide receiver (i'd prefer a F.A over tolliver, but ok)

    little concerned about karimi. he';s big and strong, but not very fast (concerned he could regualrly get beeat by speed rushers) and less maneuverability in run blocking. 

    you still get leshoure

    and we pcik up moffit.


    well done.
    nice draft

    (my one last wish though didnt happen. trading with caroilina for next years #1 to try to land andrew luck) :)


    thanks!

     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    nepatriots.com are catching on.
    their new mock:

    aldon smith 17
    Leshoure 28
    wilkerson 33
    hankerson 60
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from cbdam. Show cbdam's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    sorry,
    correction: nepatriotsdraft.com
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    I talked myself into it.  We sign Mankins, let Light walk and sign Tamba Hali.  We should have the money to do both.  Now we draft the below. F/A OLB Tamba Hali (KC) 17.  DE JJ Watt 28.  OT Gabe Carimi, move Seabass to LT, Carimi to RT 33.  RB Mikel LeShoure 60.  FS Quinton Carter 74.  C/OG John Moffitt 92.  WR Terrence Toliver Rest of the draft?  Who cares? If Tamba can even come close to the 16.5 sacks he had this season counting their play-off loss, problem solved at OLB.  We talked about Watt and Carimi to death.  LeShoure beats out BJGE.  He's bigger, faster, more explosive, has better hands, etc, etc.  What a nice luxury having the division's only 1,000 yard rusher coming off the bench. Carter is the best FS in the draft.  He's got decent size, 6-1, 211.  We aren't going to pay Meriweather big bucks in 2012, so we should start grooming his replacement now.  We talked about Moffitt to death.  He could beat out Connolly or Koppen if he's half the player I think he is.  Besides, word is he is a funny guy and would be great in the locker room.  Toliver hasn't been talked about much but he's 6-5, 211 and rumor is he runs in the 4.4s and was pretty productive at LSU. 
    Posted by Faucetman


    Hali would be quite a catch. He had a breakout year last year in terms of sacks. he has consistenly put up about 7.5 sacks a year over his career except for last year with 14.5/15 and one year he had 3. I think I would use the 7.5+ number in terms of assessing value/ what we can expect from him.

    Do you know his status Faucet? He was a 2006 1st round draft pick, so not sure if that makes him an FA, RFA?...I guess it doesn't matter yet without a CBA. I can see the Chiefs tagging him however. He's their only real option at OLB..Vrabes is old and the backups aren't too good. I think the Chiefs will go OLB with their 1st rounder this year (21st pick), to put opposite Hali. I've seen Aldon Smith mentioned several times with the Chiefs.

    Hard to argue with any of your latest picks. all solid. Toliver I don't know much about ...didn't see him play last year. I'm going to have to research him a bit.
     
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