2011 Patriots Draft Options ***THANKS TO ALL WHO CONTRIBUTED!***

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from cbdam. Show cbdam's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    i have read tali is a ufa.
    they would have to tag him to keep him.

    cb
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Low-FB-IQ. Show Low-FB-IQ's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    [QUOTE]nepatriots.com are catching on. their new mock: aldon smith 17 Leshoure 28 wilkerson 33 hankerson 60
    Posted by cbdam[/QUOTE]


    I don't think anyone would be upset with that.

    ...and as far as carching on i don't think they ever need to be catching on as they understand the Patriots VERY well.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    [QUOTE]nepatriots.com are catching on. their new mock: aldon smith 17 Leshoure 28 wilkerson 33 hankerson 60
    Posted by cbdam[/QUOTE]

    This would be a solid draft as well, and I think where they have kids listed is realistically where they will go.

    I'd like to know what people think of JJ Watt vs. Wilkerson? Has anyone ever compared the 2 on this board and what is the take?
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Patsfan038. Show Patsfan038's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    Not exactly draft questions, but is it possible for us to get either Woodley, or Tamba Hali for #28 and maybe a 4th round pick? Both these players are expected to be franchised and looking for a big contract. I think they might work great in our system. It's just a question of if pitt/kansas are willing to let their stud OLB walk for a first and a 4th.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrustBill. Show TrustBill's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15*** : Low, Good post.  A lot of fans see a player's sack totals and automatically assume he's able to play 3-4 OLB in NE's scheme regardless of whether he fits there or not. To your point, he didn't look like a good fit as a two gap/5-tech either.
    Posted by mbeaulieu07[/QUOTE]

    Hi, MB and Low:

    True, the sack total does not necessarily translate from one scheme to the other.  But it is still the best indicator if you are looking for improvement in this area.  To me, Dunlap has demonstrated the ability to beat NFL linemen and get to the quarterback.  If you don't think BB can utilize that ability to get to the QB, you have underestimated BB.  He is only the best in maximizing the players' talent.  Our offense allowed us to play with a lead most of the time.  Dunlap would have had plenty opportunities to rush.

    You two are among the best this forum has to offer.  But let's no trivialize how special it is for 22 year-old like Dunlap to collect 9.5 sacks in the 8 games.  Personally, I think GM Bill failed coach Bill on this one.  We missed the chance to steal once in a decade talent in the second. 

    TB
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from mbeaulieu07. Show mbeaulieu07's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    [QUOTE]Not exactly draft questions, but is it possible for us to get either Woodley, or Tamba Hali for #28 and maybe a 4th round pick? Both these players are expected to be franchised and looking for a big contract. I think they might work great in our system. It's just a question of if pitt/kansas are willing to let their stud OLB walk for a first and a 4th.
    Posted by Patsfan038[/QUOTE]

    A lot depends on what type of franchise tag is given. 

    If either Hali or Woodley are given the "exclusive" franchise tag, they can't negotiate with other teams.

    If either are given the "non-exlcusive" franchise tag, the player is free to negotiate with other teams, if he signs an offer sheet with the new team his original team has the right to match the offer.  If the original team chooses not to match, they are entitled to two 1st round picks as compensation.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from mbeaulieu07. Show mbeaulieu07's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15*** : Hi, MB and Low: True, the sack total does not necessarily translate from one scheme to the other.  But it is still the best indicator if you are looking for improvement in this area.  To me, Dunlap has demonstrated the ability to beat NFL linemen and get to the quarterback.  If you don't think BB can utilize that ability to get to the QB, you have underestimated BB.  He is only the best in maximizing the players' talent.  Our offense allowed us to play with a lead most of the time.  Dunlap would have had plenty opportunities to rush. You two are among the best this forum has to offer.  But let's no trivialize how special it is for 22 year-old like Dunlap to collect 9.5 sacks in the 8 games.  Personally, I think GM Bill failed coach Bill on this one.  We missed the chance to steal once in a decade talent in the second.  TB
    Posted by TrustBill[/QUOTE]

    TB,
    Thanks for the nod!  I'm not trivializing Dunlap's season, the kid performed will when given the chance as a rookie.

    My point is BB didn't see him as a fit for his scheme/team (both on and off the field) so he didn't pull the trigger, I believe he was used primarily at 4-3 DE in Cincinnati (which he's excelled at) which doesn't necessarily translate to success at 3-4 DE or 3-4 OLB. 
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from FrogLegs. Show FrogLegs's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    [QUOTE]I believe he was used primarily at 4-3 DE in Cincinnati (which he's excelled at) which doesn't necessarily translate to success at 3-4 DE or 3-4 OLB. 
    Posted by mbeaulieu07[/QUOTE]

    Can't we stop the recurring  discussion about a 3-4 LB???
    The Pats are more than 50% of the time in subpackage defense (4-3) so why not drafting a stud 4-3 rusher?
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from BBReigns. Show BBReigns's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    wow. Just watched that Wilkerson clip on You Tube. He can really move, eh?

    Me likey.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from mbeaulieu07. Show mbeaulieu07's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15*** : Can't we stop the recurring  discussion about a 3-4 LB??? The Pats are more than 50% of the time in subpackage defense (4-3) so why not drafting a stud 4-3 rusher?
    Posted by FrogLegs[/QUOTE]

    As I've posted multiple times, 57% sub-package doesn't mean that 57% of the time they're in a 4-3, if they were in a 4-3 57% of the time, they'd be a 4-3 team, which they're not.  All sub-package means is that they're not in their base alignment with 3 DL, 4 LB, 2 CB and 2 S, any variance (nickel, dime, you name it) from that base set is a "sub-package".

    So no, we won't stop the recurring discussion about a 3-4 LB because that is the scheme that BB has employed since he arrived in Foxboro, 11 years ago.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from FrogLegs. Show FrogLegs's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15*** : As I've posted multiple times, 57% sub-package doesn't mean that 57% of the time they're in a 4-3, if they were in a 4-3 57% of the time, they'd be a 4-3 team, which they're not.  All sub-package means is that they're not in their base alignment with 3 DL, 4 LB, 2 CB and 2 S, any variance (nickel, dime, you name it) from that base set is a "sub-package" Posted by mbeaulieu07[/QUOTE]

    Yeah, they even play some funky 2-5. I understand your point.
    It would be interesting to know among these 57% when they really play in a 4-3 alignment...
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from mbeaulieu07. Show mbeaulieu07's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15*** : Yeah, they even play some funky 2-5. I understand your point. It would be interesting to know among these 57% when they really play in a 4-3 alignment...
    Posted by FrogLegs[/QUOTE]

    I agree.  I believe someone said that Mike Reiss had provided the sub-package %, would be cool if he could break it down into the individual alignments etc.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***


    I still think we need to recruit talent for our base 3-4 regardless of sub package percentages. As MB noted, we don't know the alignment breakdown when we are in sub packages, and most 3-4 guys (like the ones we have been talking about Watt, Wilkerson, Jordan, etc.) can and should be able to play in either.

    I don't know about the OLB's, but my guess is most we have discussed can like an Aldon Smith or someone with that athleticism.

    Speaking of Smith, I hope we take him at 17 if he available. I looked over his film again, and he is a specimen. Same with Wilkerson. I like Wilkerson ahead of Watt at this point. I think either can be had with the picks we have. I'm not sure Smith makes it to 17. I have seen him mocked from 10-15. It might require a trade up to 9-10 range to get ahead of the Texans who are looking for a 3-4 OLB.  
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from BBReigns. Show BBReigns's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    Aldon Smith looks a little lean. Can he contain and set the edge in a 3-4?  He looks more like a 4-3 DE to me.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***


    He's 6'4", 258. He does look a little light, I think its the way he carries his weight. In terms of prototypical size, I think he has it for BB's system. If he was 265 with 7 extra pounds of upper body mass, it might be a bit better, but I still think he can contain.

    He's an athletic freak, a bit raw with just 2 years of school, but he notched some pretty impressive numbers as a 4-3 DE in those 2 years. This might still be a gamble pick, but my gut says this kid will be very productive at least as a pass rusher which he has shown he can do well.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from BBReigns. Show BBReigns's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    Yeah, the height/weight is there, it's just how he looks.  He looks top heavy with limited drive from his legs.

    He'll need more girth around the torso and legs. I just don't see it.  He appears to be more of a Jevon Kearse type to me. 4-3 DE.

    This is why I don't like Ayers. I think Ayers is a 4-3 MLB in the NFL.

    I am impressed with video on Wilkerson, though. Very nice option for 3-4 DE. Very athletic for someone that size.  Great weight distribution, he can bull rush and move.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***


    Nice analysis on Aldon Smith...with a video at bottom of page against OU.

    http://proprospects.wordpress.com/2011/01/19/aldon-smith-scouting-report/
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    [QUOTE]Yeah, the height/weight is there, it's just how he looks.  He looks top heavy with limited drive from his legs. He'll need more girth around the torso and legs. I just don't see it.  He appears to be more of a Jevon Kearse type to me. 4-3 DE. This is why I don't like Ayers. I think Ayers is a 4-3 MLB in the NFL. I am impressed with video on Wilkerson, though. Very nice option for 3-4 DE. Very athletic for someone that size.  Great weight distribution, he can bull rush and move.
    Posted by BBReigns[/QUOTE]

    I've seen Smith compared to Demarcus Ware or Jason Pierre Paul. Watch the video I just sent over. He seems to have good strenght playing from thd 4-3 DE position and is a relentless pass rush. Always in the backfield.

    I'm not big on Ayers either. Wilkerson I like a lot.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from BBReigns. Show BBReigns's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    Yeah.  I don't dislike the Smith bio/scouting report. I'd just be a little concerned how his weight would be at the NFL level with run D. 

    But, the team does need a creative pass rusher.  Good prospect, no doubt.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from mbeaulieu07. Show mbeaulieu07's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    Just watched some tape (game footage as well as an interview) on Aldon Smith, here are my thoughts:

    Positives:
    *Size and athleticism are evident, tall kid with good muscle development, lean muscular build.
    *Great natural ability.
    *Good first step/burst of the snap.
    *Good agility with quick feet.
    *Good awareness though he can be fooled by misdirection.
    *Good speed/motor in pursuit.
    *Looked strong at the POA

    Negatives:
    *Very raw with his pass-rush move repertoire/technique.
    *Mostly uses and right hand slap or rip to beat his man.
    *Doesn't appear to use his hands well, yet.

    Overall he looked to be a smart, well spoken kid though one of this quotes probably isn't what teams want to hear "god blessed me with the ability to play football, but it's not one of those things that I couldn't live without."

    Again, raw kid, but looks to possess a ton of natural ability and could be a kid that BB could mold into an elite player, assuming he wants it.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Outkast1978. Show Outkast1978's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    [QUOTE]I must have missed something. Ive followed this thread for a long time,read every post and learned a great deal. However about 50 pages ago I saw Wilsons name for the first time and there was a link that I went to and saw a terrible performance by Wilson. He missed tackles , didnt wrap up, and all in all, looked awful. I commented on this but no one agreed or disagreed but that clip showed me nothing  
    Posted by maxnsl[/QUOTE]

    I also saw that video and was not impressed at all he seem like he didn’t want anything to do with tackling.......


     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Low-FB-IQ. Show Low-FB-IQ's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15*** : This would be a solid draft as well, and I think where they have kids listed is realistically where they will go. I'd like to know what people think of JJ Watt vs. Wilkerson? Has anyone ever compared the 2 on this board and what is the take?
    Posted by PatsLifer[/QUOTE]


    For me I just have not seen enough film on either player.

    JJ is much more athletic and active but i really only saw him in the bowl game and do not claim to know his responsibilities in that game or Wis. D system. At times he seemed undisciplined or moving without thought, simply reckless abandon. That strictly a knee jerk reaction/assessment from watching one game and not even entirely focusing on him as there were other players to try and watch also. Only a general feel. For what is worth. Mayock recently finished watching film on Watt and called him a beast and his top rated 3-4 DE.

    Wilkerson I really only saw one clip on him on YouTube and well its wasn't bad but nothing really jumped out at you either. Simply solid.

    Another guy who no one talks about much and I think could be viewed as a possibility is the kid from Baylor. People keep trying to stick him in a box like they do with so many players. I think everyone thinks he's only a NT. Not sure of that. The film I have watch shows he can move and is just a big man and not some fat slob with a huge belly. The weird thing about his film though is that he almost does better against double teams than he is one-on-one. I am assuming when he makes his rush moves he loses leverage or balance which is not good but when he anchors he's not going anywhere. Maybe that's why people have him pegged for nose tackle only?
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Low-FB-IQ. Show Low-FB-IQ's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    [QUOTE]Aldon Smith looks a little lean. Can he contain and set the edge in a 3-4?  He looks more like a 4-3 DE to me.
    Posted by BBReigns[/QUOTE]


    Right now the biggest question I have been reading is whether he can set the edge not because of his weight but because he plays tall.

    With him playing tall there is always a question of a players center of gravity being too high depending on how the player plays. From the film I have seen Aldon plays very tall which is why I assume there are the questions.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Low-FB-IQ. Show Low-FB-IQ's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15*** : Hi, MB and Low: True, the sack total does not necessarily translate from one scheme to the other.  But it is still the best indicator if you are looking for improvement in this area.  To me, Dunlap has demonstrated the ability to beat NFL linemen and get to the quarterback.  If you don't think BB can utilize that ability to get to the QB, you have underestimated BB.  He is only the best in maximizing the players' talent.  Our offense allowed us to play with a lead most of the time.  Dunlap would have had plenty opportunities to rush. You two are among the best this forum has to offer.  But let's no trivialize how special it is for 22 year-old like Dunlap to collect 9.5 sacks in the 8 games.  Personally, I think GM Bill failed coach Bill on this one.  We missed the chance to steal once in a decade talent in the second.  TB
    Posted by TrustBill[/QUOTE]


    Hi TB,

    First thanks for the kind words.

    I certainly was not trying to trivialize what Dunlap did with his sack production. I was just trying to give more reasons to the discussion of why I think you can't say for certain if there was any kind of mistake made with the pick.

    I also said in my post that I thought BB would select Dunlap at that point .

    One more thing to keep in mind and a few rehashes from my other post.

    1) Dunlap was on the decline in momentum in that draft. Reason? No idea but he was originally thought of as a mid first rounder and started to fall come draft time. That might have played into the decision as well.

    2) I am assuming Dunlap kept his nose clean out in Cincy but it was only 1 year so we'll have to see if he continues to do so before deciding if the character concerns were warranted or not. It doesn't help his cause being in Cincy. More to this point is another reminder of just how bad the locker room for the Patriots was last season. At least by all publicly stated accounts of it. Not to mention how many team leaders and captains the Patriots drafted. Unlike in past seasons, the Patriots might not have felt they had a strong enough locker room to deal with Dunlap. That's even if they thought he was a fit in their system.

    3) Sacks can be misleading. I said last year that TBC's sack total was a complete joke and many argued with me. He got all of his sacks against the 25th-32nd rated pass blocking offensive lines in the league last year. More to this point is another issue with sacks. I think Clay Mathews is a very good player. I also think he is over rated. I watched a lot of his sack highlights from this past season. I would say a conservative 70% of his total came on plays where he was unblocked. To me thats more of a good reflection on Dom Capers the D coordinator scheming blitzs, stunts, or over loads to allow his man a free run at the quarterback. Clay was not lining up mano-e-mano and just beating the man across from him on all 100% of his sacks. SO what does that have to do with Dunlap? Maybe nothing but since I do not know exactly what his sacks looked like or how they came about  I can not speak to how impressive they were. Doesn't Cincy have one of the best CB duos in the league in Jonathan Joseph and Hall? Maybe 2 or 3 of those were coverage sacks? No idea.

    Bottom line. Purely on face value, ,I would agree with you that Dunlaps sack stats were impressive.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from BBReigns. Show BBReigns's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15*** : Right now the biggest question I have been reading is whether he can set the edge not because of his weight but because he plays tall. With him playing tall there is always a question of a players center of gravity being too high depending on how the player plays. From the film I have seen Aldon plays very tall which is why I assume there are the questions.
    Posted by Low-FB-IQ[/QUOTE]


    Agreed. That's what I meant about girth around the torso/leg area and him being able to drive against NFL O Linemen and set the edge.

    If BB wanted only a pass rusher like a Clay Matthews, then great.  But, he may want more than that.
     

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