2011 Patriots Draft Options ***THANKS TO ALL WHO CONTRIBUTED!***

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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : This would seem to be out of character, but perhaps there is something to it. Lets assume for a second it may have some truth to it. Who is one of the top OLB rush linebackers in the 1st round that may be undersized for the Pats scheme/prototype? I can only think of 1 guys...Von Miller. Every other rush linebacker being discussed in round 1; Aldon Smith, etc. seem to fit the Pats size requirements. Am I missing anyone? And of course, this would require a move up, way up to get him. 
    Posted by PatsLifer[/QUOTE]

    I thought the same thing and I still don't see them moving up for Miller.

    The other undersized guy with elite speed is Moch (a thread favorite), who in Rd 3 or 4 might be someone they take the chance on, assuming they are willing to drop the height requirement for a speed rusher.

    For my money, I'm still president of the Brooks Reed To Foxboro Club.
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : Low, I love a good debate with you my friend. Tate had a nice YPC, I'll give him that but that was because he was often sent down the field so when he caught a pass, it was usually of good distance.  But he only had 24 catches for 432 yards and 3 TDs.  He was completely shut out as a receiver against BAL, IND, DET, and BUF and had just 1 catch against NYJ, SD, CLE, NYJ again, and GB.  So in 9 of the 16 regular season game he had either 1 or 0 catches.  Getting just 2 catches in 2 games against the Jets is not cutting it when Branch was on Revis Island.  Tate needed to step up and he didn't.  Tate started the season out strong.  In his first 4 games he had 11 catches for 135 yards, that's nearly 3 catches per game and this was while Moss was with us.  Having Moss draw the attention of the #1 CB and double team really helped Tate as the 3rd or 4th WR.  After the Bye Tate had just 13 catches for 288 yards in 12 games, just over 1 catch per game!!  Oh, I forget to mention, he was shut out against the Jets in our play-off loss.  So in three games against the Jets including 2 losses, Tate was 2 for 21 with 1 score.  So, Tate's average per game against our biggest rival, the NY Jets, was 0.67 catches for 7 yards.  I could wheel granny out to the 50 yard line and she could do better than that. I don't readily have Tate's KR numbers by game but if memory serves, he came out of the gate fast and had a couple returns for TDs early in the season but slowed down as the season progressed.  I'm not sure if the issue was with Tate or if teams started studying his tape and tendencies and took away what was working both as a receiver and as a KR. In any event, Tate was not an elite WR in college.  He was known as a KR.  Price was a good receiver in college but played in a crappy offense with no QB.  Price needed time to learn the Pats complex offensive system much as Tate had time his first year recovering from injury.  I haven't given up on either WR.  I'm saying if we can draft a top notch WR who can come in day 1 and get us 40 catches and be a legit #2 down the field type, that WR could replace Tate in the line up and perhaps take over for Branch as our #1 after the season if by then the 33 year old Branch leaves or gets hurt.  Tate can compete to remain our KR and perhaps it's Slater sent packing.  I don't ever see Tate become our solid #1 getting 60-70 catches a year for 1,000 yardsWe need to be thinking about our future #1 after Branch which isn't too far in the distance.  A 4-7 round flyer isn't likely the answer either.
    Posted by Faucetman[/QUOTE]

    I love your passion Faucet. SImply a different point of view between a coach and a passionate fan and great guy.

    1) You can't hold it against Tate for going down field and having a long  average if that was his assigned role.

    2) You really want to blame the loss against the jets in season AND playoff on Tate? Seriously?

    Now I have not gone and rewatched the in-season loss to the Jets but I have rewatched the playoff loss a few times. I do not have the all-22 coaches film but even just in the broadcast there was 5 times that I was able to see that Tate was wide open on a failed offensive play where Brady either did not see him or chose not to throw to him. Is that really Tates fault?

    Let's go further in assesing Tate.

    Tate is the #3 WR. Let's take a look at the teams #3 WR options that went farther than the Patriots this season shall we.

    Player  Rec/Yrds  Avg   TD  (comment)

    Steelers
    emmanuel sanders 28/376 13.4 2
    antwaan randle el 22/253 11.5 o
    TE - heath Miller 42/512 12.2 2

    Packers
    james jones 50/679 13.6 5 (in 2nd NFL season only 20/274 13.7 1)
    jordy nelson 45/582 12.9 2 (in 2nd NFL season only 22/320 14.5 2)
    TE - andrew quarless 21/238 11.3 1

    Jets
    jericho cotchery 41/433 10.6 2 (in 2nd NFL season 19/251 13.2 0)
    TE - Dustin keller 55/687 12.5 5

    Falcons
    Harry Douglas 22/294 13.4 1
    Brian Finneran 19/166 8.7 3
    TE - Tony Gonzalas 70/656 9.4 6

    Patriots
    Brandon Tate 24/432 18.0 3
    TE - Gronk 42/546 13.0 10
    TE - Hernandez 45/563 12.5 6

    So lets draw some conclusions from those stats.

    1st we see how very efficient Tate was last year.
    2nd Only one other #3 WR had more TD's.
    3rd None had a higher Reception average than Tate.
    4th Cotchery had more receptions but fewer TD's and only the same amount of total yardage.
    5th all 3 WR's who had more receptions than Tate also had fewer or less overall numbers than Tate did in their 2nd season in the NFL.
    6th all 3 #3 WR's who had more receptions than Tate did NOT have 2 TE's with more than 40 receptions a piece. How many balls do you think there are to go around?

    If anything it would suggest they don't use Tate enough.

    Also in that playoff loss you are all over Tate cause he did not have a catch.

    He was only targeted ONCE.

    You say Tate must come up big because Branch was on Revis island. Then why was Branch targeted more than any other WR that day by Brady? I'll tell you why.

    Because Brady needs to remove head from rear-end. He is 0-3 in his last 3 post-season starts and two he won prior to that he was bailed out by his team cause he was awful in those wins.

    OK back on point. In that playoff loss Hernandez was basically hurt. So instead of geting Tate more involved in the game plan they opted to target Crmpler instead. So yes you can blame game planning as well. Let's not forget they decided not to run the ball even though BJGE had a 4.8 yard avg in that game yet only touched the ball 9 times.

    As I already stated earlier Tate's lack of being targeted was certainly not due to him not being open.

    3) OK that is funny. Wrong but still funny. You know some kick butt Grannies my friend . :)

    4) I'll group the next two together here. Here is where the problem with stats  is. True Tate was better at start of season on returns but end results are what they are. Top 5. Clay Mathews had 6 sacks in his 1st 2 games. 3 each game then was average at best the rest of the way. No one cares, only what his total was at the end of the season. Also again using Clay Mathews as the example here, you said Tate wasn't great in college. Neither was Mathews. I know i am comparing different positions but its simply because i know those stats off the top of my head. I am sure I can go look up similar things for WR's. The point to remember is context to stats AND also that stats don't always bare out as accurate indicators from college to pros.

    5) The last I will group together. My response felt warranted because I took it that you were indeed saying you were giving up on Tate and looking to replace/upgrade him. If I misunderstood, apologies.

    I have said on here in this years thread before and I will say it again. I don't have a problem with drafting a very high WR in the draft but my feeling is that you do it with the idea of replacing Bradys binkie NOW this year not for the future. I don't know how a high-end WR fits on the roster while still keeping the young guys and helping them progress by getting them playing time all at the same time.

    The player you could imagine replacing is Slater but you just need someone who's a tough SOB and also runs 4.4 40 to take over those responsibilties of being the kamakazie while playing another position. Chances are a high-end WR isn't going to also take those responsibilites, nor is Tate or Price.

    It's all about where do players fit in the defined roles set forth by the team building process. NE's are pretty clear to see.

    I also do not see Tate becoming this "#1" WR but I am not sure he was drafted for that role. Branch has never even been considered by the Pats or any other person in the NFL as a true "#1" WR so I am not sure I see your point.

    The simple and bottom line is. Tate is young, still a bit inexperienced, yet for a #3 WR with limited attempts at being targeted was extremely effective and effieciant.

    I am just not sure what you expect out of, essentially, a rookie #3 WR?
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : hi eng, so, have many thoughts see how many i can get out here now. 1st did you stay in our picks at 17 and 28 because you would prefer to do that, because you picked what you thiink bb does staying there and taking those picks or cause you were merely staying in draft format? 2. with decertification, dont you think cincinnati would trade out and take a qtrback and failinig that, take one where they are with no guarantee who they could get in f.a. (and given palmer refuses to play anothe rdown in cincy-wont even go to the stadium ever again, unless in a different jersey). 3, i too see gabbert andnewton going 1 and 3 in whichever order carolina prefers (gabbert less of a risk, newton more possible upside). 4. why does san diego prefer jordan to watt? 5. no other qb's move into first rd or teams moving into second to take a qtrback given no giuarantee who you may or may not get in fa. if there is ever a season this year? more ie's carolina (ponder), sf, etc etc  6. i wouldnt drop carimi for cockyness. even if he is a punk, i training camp will take care of that (no more attitude-if there was one to begin). 7.with wisnewski why not trade down if that's the first lineman you want? (cartimi or costanzo my first o lineman) 8. you take me to 32, miught as well go to 33? 9. with picks 7-11, 14 and 16 a lot of player options to move up thats a start. peace brdbreu/cbdam (ps asked for everyones/anyones new first within the last week)
    Posted by brdbreu[/QUOTE]

    Hey Brd

    I didn't project any trades because I try to hold off on any major trades until a week or 2 before the draft. It's hard to predict trades until you hear more rumors from teams about who they like and what they are looking for. Pro-days help with that too.

    That's also why I only predicted 4 QB's going in the 1st over 5 because I'm not predicting trades right now. However, once I get a better idea I think a team will trade back into the 1st to grab that 5th QB but predicting 3 in the first 12 I thought was pretty bold.

    1) I don't think BB will say at both but it's a little hard to tell if he'd move up or down to predict that far ahead.

    2) I see Cinn taking a QB with 1 of 2 things happening. Either Buf doesn't take a QB and Cinn taking the best QB available or Cinn trading back into the late 1st to grab whatever QB is left. My thoughts are that Sea is taking a QB so this will force Cinn's hand into trading back into the 1st to take one

    3) Yeah the more I think about it the more I think Car has to take a QB with them not having a 2nd and losing some fans with the lockout. Buf always shows it's hand before the draft as they did with Spiller last year and this year they said QB was where they wanted to improve so it looks like a go from there

    4) Just the system they play. Heyward comes with some bigger question marks then Watt or Jordan and both Watt and Jordan fit SD's attacking DE system well

    5) From what I can see there are really only 5 maybe 6 QB's that have a shot at starting this year and over 10 teams looking for QB's. With the lack of quality QB FA's and the ransoms that will be asked for in a trade by teams after the draft teams will try to get one early imo with all 5-6 gone by pick 40

    6) I didn't drop him him draft order from cockiness I honestly think he'll end up somewhere between 25-30. However, I seen other draft picks make similar statements that should have been all over the Pats radar and when they fell to the Pats they weren't taken. I just think it's personal taste by the Pats that they want confidence not cockiness

    7) Just didn't predict trades however if Wisniewski is the guy then this might be where a team wanting to get that 5th QB and jump ahead of Cinn and Ari to make sure they get them might move up to get him. I'm thinking Tenn

    8) If I wasn't so sure they would trade out of 33 I would lol but I'd bet a paycheck that they trade out

    9) yeah there are a lot of options to move up. I think Det, Stl, and Mia are ideal spots to move up. If OT Smith, Jones, Ingram are there picks any of them can fall back into 17 or 18 and not have to worry to much about losing those players. Det would have the biggest concern about another team trading up to grab Smith but between 14-17 I don't see any team taking either Jones or Ingram unless another team moves up. If only one of Watt or Jordan makes it to 15 I can easily see the Pats throwing #90 at Mia to jump ahead of Jax and get their DE.

     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    Wow Low, great rebuttal.  You kicked my butt with that one, hat's off to ya!!

    Of course I'm not blaming Tate for the play-off loss.  I blame the game plan and the protection that gave up 5 sacks and had Brady running for his life.  I blame a defense that got no pressure on a young QB who if pressured, would have made mistakes.  I blame Brady for the pick when we were driving and about to score but the Jets failed to convert.  

    Still Brady outperformed Sanchez going 29 for 45 for 299 and 2 TDs where Sanchez was 16 of 25 for 194 and 3 TD.  Sanchez benefited from great protection, no pass rush and excellent field position set up by dumb Patriot mistakes.  Brady didn't drop that TD pass to Crumpler which was a huge momentum shift.  Brady didn't call for that failed fake punt that led to a Jets' score before the half.  Brady had the best season of any QB.  Brady is not at fault here either.

    The Patriots played almost scared and took stupid chances acting like a desperate team.  We were 8-0 at home with the better record.  All we had to do was go out, play smart football, execute and we would have beaten them.

    As for Tate, he had a good season returning kicks, ranking 7th in return yards.  I guess for where he is in his development he had a decent year as a receiver.  But like you, I don't think he ever becomes a legitimate #1.  I saw a lot of dropped balls by Tate, some were low but very catcheable.  True Branch isn't a #1 either but he was the guy we brought in to replace Moss.  The young TEs really contributed this season and Gronkowski had a good game.  I felt we should have target Gronkowski more than Crumpler.  Gronk created good mismatches but we tried to fool the Jets by featuring Crumpler and we got burned in the process.  Had we stayed with our strengths, it could have been a different outcome but we tried to get cute throughout the game. 

    The Jets have a good defense as do the Steelers, Ravens, Packers, Bears and most of the other play-off teams.  Our defense ranked near the bottom of the league and play-off teams need good defenses to go far.

    Back to my original point.  It is getting near time to think about getting younger at WR with Branch 32 and Welker 30 and with both players set to become F/A after 2011.  Add in Branch's injury history and that Welker may have lost a step in terms of quickness in his cuts due to his repaired knee and the fact that both players over 30 will likely get injured more and take longer to recover and the case is made to draft at least one WR.  Whether we draft an elite one should Julio Jones fall, or a solid 2nd round type like Hankerson, Cobb, Young and Baldwin or look for a value player like Maehl, Pettis, Senzenbacher, Paul, etc is the real debate.  Which of these players, and others, best fit our club, scheme, and future plans?   
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    NOT his Mock....

    Mike Mayock's Top 16 2011 NFL Draft Big Board

    1. Marcell Dareus
    2. Von Miller
    3. Patrick Peterson
    4. A.J. Green
    5. Blaine Gabbert
    6. Robert Quinn
    7. Julio Jones
    8. Nick Fairley
    9. Prince Amuakmara
    10. Da'Quan Bowers
    11. Anthony Castonzo
    12. J.J. Watt
    13. Tyron Smith
    14. Aldon Smith
    15. Cameron Jordan
    16. Mark Ingram


    17 - 32 is here...

     http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/09000d5d81eb70a5/article/defensive-line-leads-the-way-on-list-of-top-32-prospects
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    Some of these you all already know and are old news...

    Jeremy Kerley/WR/TCU has a private workout next week with the New England Patriots

    Patriots Working Out Virgil Green

    Patriots Will Hold Workout with Andy Dalton

    Kentucky WR Chris Matthews scheduled for private workouts
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]Wow Low, great rebuttal.  You kicked my butt with that one, hat's off to ya!! Of course I'm not blaming Tate for the play-off loss.  I blame the game plan and the protection that gave up 5 sacks and had Brady running for his life.  I blame a defense that got no pressure on a young QB who if pressured, would have made mistakes.  I blame Brady for the pick when we were driving and about to score but the Jets failed to convert.   Still Brady outperformed Sanchez going 29 for 45 for 299 and 2 TDs where Sanchez was 16 of 25 for 194 and 3 TD.  Sanchez benefited from great protection, no pass rush and excellent field position set up by dumb Patriot mistakes.  Brady didn't drop that TD pass to Crumpler which was a huge momentum shift.  Brady didn't call for that failed fake punt that led to a Jets' score before the half.  Brady had the best season of any QB.  Brady is not at fault here either. The Patriots played almost scared and took stupid chances acting like a desperate team.  We were 8-0 at home with the better record.  All we had to do was go out, play smart football, execute and we would have beaten them. As for Tate, he had a good season returning kicks, ranking 7th in return yards.  I guess for where he is in his development he had a decent year as a receiver.  But like you, I don't think he ever becomes a legitimate #1.  I saw a lot of dropped balls by Tate, some were low but very catcheable.  True Branch isn't a #1 either but he was the guy we brought in to replace Moss.  The young TEs really contributed this season and Gronkowski had a good game.  I felt we should have target Gronkowski more than Crumpler.  Gronk created good mismatches but we tried to fool the Jets by featuring Crumpler and we got burned in the process.  Had we stayed with our strengths, it could have been a different outcome but we tried to get cute throughout the game.  The Jets have a good defense as do the Steelers, Ravens, Packers, Bears and most of the other play-off teams.  Our defense ranked near the bottom of the league and play-off teams need good defenses to go far. Back to my original point.  It is getting near time to think about getting younger at WR with Branch 32 and Welker 30 and with both players set to become F/A after 2011.  Add in Branch's injury history and that Welker may have lost a step in terms of quickness in his cuts due to his repaired knee and the fact that both players over 30 will likely get injured more and take longer to recover and the case is made to draft at least one WR.  Whether we draft an elite one should Julio Jones fall, or a solid 2nd round type like Hankerson, Cobb, Young and Baldwin or look for a value player like Maehl, Pettis, Senzenbacher, Paul, etc is the real debate.  Which of these players, and others, best fit our club, scheme, and future plans?   
    Posted by Faucetman[/QUOTE]

    Well I would say we missed or opportunity last year and MB is loading up his shotgun to shoot me. I said I would take the Williams kid from Syracuse last year but I mentioned  5th round but he went in the 4th.

    So, to your point, this year my problem is that outside of Jones and Green do you feel absolutely certain that someone NE could take in the 2nd round is a "significant" enough upgrade over Branch or Welker to warrant using that high a  pick over other positions of greater need?

    I honestly haven't looked much at the WR's this year so I would be speaking out of turn but just looking at positional rankings on the various draft-nik websites there seems to be a whole lot of varying opinion on the group after the 1st three or four.

    I don't know what systems they each played in, who they faced at CB and how they fared in those match ups, etc. etc. I don't know enough about them.

    A lot of times you have to gamble a lil bit more, if it's a high draft pick, with a skill position players character because in those types of positions, talent and god given gifts rule.

    I'm sure that's why they took Chad Jackson. No way they didn't know he was a bit of a knucklehead but all the talent in the world. They gambled, they failed.

    So guys commonly mentioned in the 2nd round like Young and Baldwin both have those issues being raised about them. Would they gamble again? Both also performed great BUT less impressively than what scouts were expecting at the combine. What does that mean?

    We already know that value guys who just makes plays and don't seem to have off field issues who show up near the top in all the quickness drills like Maehl and Sanzenbacher would seem to make sense but are they just like what is already on the roster?

    Hankerson. Huddle report has him as their 8th WR I think. Draft Headquarters as their 6th. Finally Draft Ace has him as their 19th, not sure why. CBSsports has him 4th. Was he rated that high before the senior bowl and combine? If he wasn't then I am thinking he might be getting over valued because of those two things. Again I do not know as I have not been following the position because I don't think it is a priority. If they draft a player like Hankerson, you hope that the safety depth they have on the roster can take Slaters responsibilities. I forgot about Cobb but you can add him in this discussion as well.

    I think for the Patriots they really want to try and find out who can really read a defense while standing out their on the line of scrimmage. As fans I am not sure you can know that by looking at Stats or even just watching film. You can only see if he has good hands. Does he look quick, fast, or electric on the field. Is he elusive with the ball in his hands after the catch.

    For me, the problem is people see the latter stuff that is visible and have no idea if the receiver can do the primary thing because in the college game you really do not need to do that so much and can still be effective purely on athletic ability.
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]Some of these you all already know and are old news... Jeremy Kerley/WR/TCU has a private workout next week with the New England Patriots Patriots Working Out Virgil Green http://bit.ly/eQ1Q5b Patriots Will Hold Workout with Andy Dalton http://bit.ly/gL3AJi Kentucky WR Chris Matthews scheduled for private workouts
    Posted by Low-FB-IQ[/QUOTE]
    Low, these workouts are key to assess who the Pats may be interested in.  Is there any way you can keep us posted on these by keeping a running tally?  That way we won't have to keep going back to piece together all your updates?  If its too much trouble, that's fine, but it would be very helpful if you can.  I think there is a solid chance that at least half of the players we end up drafting we would have worked out and/or had in for a visit.
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    Low,

    The problem with evaluating a lot of these WRs is most came out of a spread offense and weren't often pressed on the LOS.  We don't see a lot of down the field blocking with a lot of these kids and being able to block and getting off the line of scrimmage is so critical in the NFL and especially for the Pats.  That's why I care more about strong receivers who either have shown they can beat the press or have decent strength. 

    Hankerson had pretty much been anywhere from high 2nd to high 3rd throughout the year.  He dropped off a bit after the season but started rising again during Senior Bowl week and certainly after the Combine.  Is he, Cobb or any of the 2nd tier guys better than our current players?  I honestly can't say.  My concern is do we feel Edelman can be the next Wes Welker?  I'm not sold on that idea although he flashed doing it in 2009.  My big concern is who is prepared to step in should Branch go down or leave after 2011.  Price has potential physically but I worry that he might be slow learning the system given that he wasn't activated until the final meaningless game.

    I love the Maehl kid on tape and his size is impressive at 6-1, 190 considering how quick and sudden he showed he was at the Combine.  Sanzenbacher had nearly the same impressive cone and shuttle numbers but he's shorter lighter than Maehl.  Obviously the risk/reward proposition for WR and RB is in the later rounds.  This is probably where the Pats will draft these players. 
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]Some of these you all already know and are old news... Jeremy Kerley/WR/TCU has a private workout next week with the New England Patriots Patriots Working Out Virgil Green http://bit.ly/eQ1Q5b Patriots Will Hold Workout with Andy Dalton http://bit.ly/gL3AJi Kentucky WR Chris Matthews scheduled for private workouts
    Posted by Low-FB-IQ[/QUOTE]

    These are interesting names to watch being all later round picks. Does it mean the Pats have the front of their board set and are now bringing in kids that they might target from the 4th/5th round on?

    I like Kerley but to me he is a little bit of the same as what we have. Not big, not a burner, just a solid, reliable target.

    Matthews on the other hand is completely different than what we have. He's really not impresses me much on the fied, as i think his route running and hands are suspect, but he has intriguing size at 6'5". He will be a project, and not someone I think will sniff the lineup next year at all.

    Virgil Green is also interesting. He's not known for his speed or stellar catching ability (although he is a pretty good receiver), but seems to get credit for his blocking ability..which if they are targeting a TE late, perhaps a guy who can block first and catch with decent speed could be a better option than Crump this late in his career?.....
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]Wow Low, great rebuttal.  You kicked my butt with that one, hat's off to ya!! Of course I'm not blaming Tate for the play-off loss.  I blame the game plan and the protection that gave up 5 sacks and had Brady running for his life.  I blame a defense that got no pressure on a young QB who if pressured, would have made mistakes.  I blame Brady for the pick when we were driving and about to score but the Jets failed to convert.   Still Brady outperformed Sanchez going 29 for 45 for 299 and 2 TDs where Sanchez was 16 of 25 for 194 and 3 TD.  Sanchez benefited from great protection, no pass rush and excellent field position set up by dumb Patriot mistakes.  Brady didn't drop that TD pass to Crumpler which was a huge momentum shift.  Brady didn't call for that failed fake punt that led to a Jets' score before the half.  Brady had the best season of any QB.  Brady is not at fault here either. The Patriots played almost scared and took stupid chances acting like a desperate team.  We were 8-0 at home with the better record.  All we had to do was go out, play smart football, execute and we would have beaten them. As for Tate, he had a good season returning kicks, ranking 7th in return yards.  I guess for where he is in his development he had a decent year as a receiver.  But like you, I don't think he ever becomes a legitimate #1.  I saw a lot of dropped balls by Tate, some were low but very catcheable.  True Branch isn't a #1 either but he was the guy we brought in to replace Moss.  The young TEs really contributed this season and Gronkowski had a good game.  I felt we should have target Gronkowski more than Crumpler.  Gronk created good mismatches but we tried to fool the Jets by featuring Crumpler and we got burned in the process.  Had we stayed with our strengths, it could have been a different outcome but we tried to get cute throughout the game.  The Jets have a good defense as do the Steelers, Ravens, Packers, Bears and most of the other play-off teams.  Our defense ranked near the bottom of the league and play-off teams need good defenses to go far. Back to my original point.  It is getting near time to think about getting younger at WR with Branch 32 and Welker 30 and with both players set to become F/A after 2011.  Add in Branch's injury history and that Welker may have lost a step in terms of quickness in his cuts due to his repaired knee and the fact that both players over 30 will likely get injured more and take longer to recover and the case is made to draft at least one WR.  Whether we draft an elite one should Julio Jones fall, or a solid 2nd round type like Hankerson, Cobb, Young and Baldwin or look for a value player like Maehl, Pettis, Senzenbacher, Paul, etc is the real debate.  Which of these players, and others, best fit our club, scheme, and future plans?   
    Posted by Faucetman[/QUOTE]

    I too think we need to get younger at WR, but I also want to give Tate and Price a chance to develop. By this time next year we should know what we have. I don't think either will develop into a true #1, but I think they both can be #2 and #3.
    Personally, unless we are going to move up and snag Green or Jones, (which I highly doubt), then i would wait until next year to target Justin Blackmon. I think he can be a #1, and he with Tate and Price + Welker if he returns would be a nice combination.

    I'm not sold on any of the 2nd round guys being discussed except for Cobb and even then I think he gives us a little of what we already have (at the WR position that is because I know he can play just about anywhere).
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    I keep coming back to BB's comments that they received a lot of interest from teams looking to trade down.  He didn't reject the idea of moving up although it would be out of character.  However, the team with the NFL's best record who has 2 key returning defensive starters and has only two key free agents (Mankins and Light) with one already tagged, can afford to make a splash moving up.

    We already discussed that 17 and 28 gets us to 5 or 17 and 33 gets us to 7.  Some are suggesting Newton and Gabbert come off in the top 3.  If that happens, one of Dareus, Peterson or Miller falls to 5.  Here we have 1 elite player from each level of the defense that could potentially be there at 5 should we package our pair of 1sts and move up.  With the top pick in the 2nd, another 2nd and pair of 3rds, why the heck would we NOT consider moving up?

    If we wait until 7 with our familiar draft trading partner SF on the clock one of the previous Dareus, Peterson or Miller could still be there assuming Green or Quinn or Failey comes off the board.  Why the heck would we not consider packaging 33 and 17 to go to 7 to draft Dareus, Fairley, Peterson, Quinn, or Miller? Any one of these guys immediately makes an impact and we trade our next pick down to get a top C/G and another pick. 

    Its odd that many on here think we need all these top picks to fix all these glaring holes with many suggesting we trade down and out to acquire even more picks.  I realize that has been our strategy the past two years but we were rebuilding, totally retooling our defense.  Now we have a couple of holes to fix.  Why not get a Dareus or Fairley?  Why not a Miller or Quinn?  Why not Peterson who would totally shut down the other side of the field and be perhaps the most dynamic punt returner in the NFL?

    I don't think standing Pat and hoping for Watt or Jordan is smart.  At a minimum we should give up 74 and 17 to go to 12 to ENSURE get one of them.
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]Low, The problem with evaluating a lot of these WRs is most came out of a spread offense and weren't often pressed on the LOS.  We don't see a lot of down the field blocking with a lot of these kids and being able to block and getting off the line of scrimmage is so critical in the NFL and especially for the Pats.  That's why I care more about strong receivers who either have shown they can beat the press or have decent strength.  Hankerson had pretty much been anywhere from high 2nd to high 3rd throughout the year.  He dropped off a bit after the season but started rising again during Senior Bowl week and certainly after the Combine.  Is he, Cobb or any of the 2nd tier guys better than our current players?  I honestly can't say.  My concern is do we feel Edelman can be the next Wes Welker?  I'm not sold on that idea although he flashed doing it in 2009.  My big concern is who is prepared to step in should Branch go down or leave after 2011.  Price has potential physically but I worry that he might be slow learning the system given that he wasn't activated until the final meaningless game. I love the Maehl kid on tape and his size is impressive at 6-1, 190 considering how quick and sudden he showed he was at the Combine.  Sanzenbacher had nearly the same impressive cone and shuttle numbers but he's shorter lighter than Maehl.  Obviously the risk/reward proposition for WR and RB is in the later rounds.  This is probably where the Pats will draft these players. 
    Posted by Faucetman[/QUOTE]

    I like Maehl too. I think he demonstrated how quick he is, plus he nearly catches everything thrown this way. Problem again is the guy is barely 6'1, 190lbs. He's got a small frame and is not straightline fast...although very quick in and out of routes and runs them crisply.He's being touted as a potential good slot WR.
     
    If we took him I can see him replacing Edelman, possibly Welker when / if he leaves. But, again, he's not that much different from either Edelman or Welker, just a tad bigger than Welker and probably similar in size to Edelman.
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]I keep coming back to BB's comments that they received a lot of interest from teams looking to trade down.  He didn't reject the idea of moving up although it would be out of character.  However, the team with the NFL's best record who has 2 key returning defensive starters and has only two key free agents (Mankins and Light) with one already tagged, can afford to make a splash moving up. We already discussed that 17 and 28 gets us to 5 or 17 and 33 gets us to 7.  Some are suggesting Newton and Gabbert come off in the top 3.  If that happens, one of Dareus, Peterson or Miller falls to 5.  Here we have 1 elite player from each level of the defense that could potentially be there at 5 should we package our pair of 1sts and move up.  With the top pick in the 2nd, another 2nd and pair of 3rds, why the heck would we NOT consider moving up? If we wait until 7 with our familiar draft trading partner SF on the clock one of the previous Dareus, Peterson or Miller could still be there assuming Green or Quinn or Failey comes off the board.  Why the heck would we not consider packaging 33 and 17 to go to 7 to draft Dareus, Fairley, Peterson, Quinn, or Miller? Any one of these guys immediately makes an impact and we trade our next pick down to get a top C/G and another pick.  Its odd that many on here think we need all these top picks to fix all these glaring holes with many suggesting we trade down and out to acquire even more picks.  I realize that has been our strategy the past two years but we were rebuilding, totally retooling our defense.  Now we have a couple of holes to fix.  Why not get a Dareus or Fairley?  Why not a Miller or Quinn?  Why not Peterson who would totally shut down the other side of the field and be perhaps the most dynamic punt returner in the NFL? I don't think standing Pat and hoping for Watt or Jordan is smart.  At a minimum we should give up 74 and 17 to go to 12 to ENSURE get one of them.
    Posted by Faucetman[/QUOTE]

    Faucet,
    Like always you make great points. If we were to do it, this would be the year to do so.
    I am for trading in 17 and 28 to move up. I honestly want to keep 33 because it will be too valuable a chip overnight and someone will sell their souls to the hooded one to grab the one they covet.

    If we do the move, I'm all in on Dareus. I'm with Mayock on this one saying Dareus is the best DL, possibly player in this draft. I would make that move. For Peterson and Miller I would have to think long and hard about it. I love both, but I still think our defense wins and loses based on the front 7, and for me it starts with the front 3. Dareus, Wilkfork and Warren would be a great trio. Add Brace, GWarren or Pyror to that mix and you got a nice front 4. Plus it is absolutely key to find a stud DE to open things up for the backers. I don't feel the same way about Watt nor Jordan. Again, like them both, but I don't think they are as dominant as Dareus.

    I'll get on the MB bus and target Reed in round 2. Reed sitting on Dareus' side while Dareus occupies double teams should allow Reed to get to the QB all day long.
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    Patslifer, I think you and many here overvalue pick 33.  The Rams have stated they didnt get much action for it last year.  Unless the right player falls to round 2, I dont see it as such a great pick.  I know many here disagree with me, but I think many here are just being too positive, kind of like those thinking we would get a 1st and 3rd for Cassel  when we traded him. 
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : I too think we need to get younger at WR, but I also want to give Tate and Price a chance to develop. By this time next year we should know what we have. I don't think either will develop into a true #1, but I think they both can be #2 and #3. Personally, unless we are going to move up and snag Green or Jones, (which I highly doubt), then i would wait until next year to target Justin Blackmon. I think he can be a #1, and he with Tate and Price + Welker if he returns would be a nice combination. I'm not sold on any of the 2nd round guys being discussed except for Cobb and even then I think he gives us a little of what we already have (at the WR position that is because I know he can play just about anywhere).
    Posted by PatsLifer[/QUOTE]
    Lifer,

    I guess I can agree with you especially if we are going to do my idea of moving up for an elite defensive player.  I still like the idea of an Maehl in the 5-6 round range. 

    We have to consider how many rookies can make our squad.  Actually, let's consider how many rookies could start or make significant contributions to 2011.  To determine that let's see how many current players are "safe". 

    I count 17 on offense (18 if Mankins signs his tag).  At risk players are: Slater, Mankins, Light and Kaczur

    I count 17 on defense (16 if this thing with Meriweather blows-up).  At risk players are: Deaderick, Stroud, Banta-Cain, Love, Pryor, Wilhite, Butler and White

    I count 3 on special teams:  Goskowski, Mesko and a TBD long snapper.

    By "at risk" I simply mean these players could be moved for various reasons or could be upgraded in the draft.  So we have 38 pretty for sure safe players.  The only places where a rookie could start is at one of the OT positions should Light leave, one of the OG positions should Mankins hold out, one DE position if we drafted a real stud and one OLB position.  That would take us to 42 and we only dress 45.  I'm not counting any fringe players like Love, Maneri or guys that are already free agents like Taylor, Morris, Faulk, G, Warren etc.

    Now if we kept every single one of the at risk players that's 11 more taking us to 49.  There is only room on the roster for 53 or 4 more.

    If Mankins signs his tag, I don't see any rookie OG beating out Connolly.  There are no centers that would beat out Koppen the first year.  If Light gets extended, I don't see any rookie OT beating him or Vollmer out.  Unless we draft a truly elite WR, Green or Jones, Tate would seem to have his spot locked down, at least to start the season.  Nobody is going to dislodge Woodhead and unless we drafted a RB high like Ingram, BJGE would seem to have his spot locked.  So, there is a chance that no offensive rookie would start so we are drafting for depth and future.

    On defense Left Defensive End would seem to be up for grabs with Warren taking over at RDE.  Maybe Martez Wilson could beat out the Spikes/Guyton combo and start but no other ILB would seem capable their first year.  I really think Cunningham should move over to Ninkovich's spot and we make a play for Von Miller.  That would be an upgrade and address a major weakness.  Again, unless the Meriweather thing ends his days in NE, the secondary would seem to be set with the return of Bodden unless we somehow went up to get Peterson.  Peterson will end up being special but how much does he upgrade Bodden on Day 1?  He improves the punt return game but do we really want a top 5 pick returning kicks?  I doubt it, we didn't have McCourty doing it and he was great at it at Rutgers.

    So to summarize, the draft that makes the most immediate impact is either taking a Watt/Jordan/Dareus/Fairley to improve the DL or a Von Miller or Robert Quinn to improve the pass rush.  Miller doesn't have the baggage so I am advocating trading 17 and 28 to go up to 5 to get him. 

    It's all about improving our team more than our competition improves their teams.  Since we have the top pick in the 2nd only the team we trade up with, in this case ARI improves more than us after 2 picks in theory.  Do we really care if ARI gets better with all their holes?  If we hold our own in free agency, we will still have the best draft.

    I am a Reed/Acho supporter but who do they beat out, Cunningham?  Are we going to replace a 2nd round pick with a 2nd round pick albeit a better athlete?  I don't think so.  I really think BB makes the move up to get Miller and he immediately starts at ROLB with Cunningham replacing Ninkovich on the strong side which is where he belongs.  Miller at 6-3, 246 is the same height and just 4 lbs lighter than R. Colvin was.  Miller will add those 4 lbs and still have way more ability and speed than Colvin.  You want your elite pass rusher to have speed coming from the left tackle side.  LT are the better athletes compared to RT so put speed against speed and put power against power on the other side.

    The only other really cool idea is if we could come away with both Watt and Miller.  What if we get Miller at 7 with 17/33?  We could then package 28/60 to move up back up to 17.  Think about this ARI wants Newton or Gabbert.  Both are gone.  They trade 5 to us for 17 and 33.  We land Miller at 5 we get to 17 and Watt is still there.  We flip 28 and 60 to ARI and take JJ Watt.  Now ARI can land the 3rd best QB at 28 and fill a ton of holes while we address two specific big need and fill out the roster with depth.

    Imagine we plug our holes in the draft with 2 impact players on defense that can start day 1 adding back Bodden and Warren.  This is with out free agency. 

    #5    Von Miller
    #17  JJ Watt
    #74  James Carpenter
    #92  Jordan Todman
    #127 John Moffitt
    5th  Jeff Maehl
    6th  Mario Fannin
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : Lifer, I guess I can agree with you especially if we are going to do my idea of moving up for an elite defensive player.  I still like the idea of an Maehl in the 5-6 round range.  We have to consider how many rookies can make our squad.  Actually, let's consider how many rookies could start or make significant contributions to 2011.  To determine that let's see how many current players are "safe".  I count 17 on offense (18 if Mankins signs his tag).  At risk players are: Slater, Mankins, Light and Kaczur I count 17 on defense (16 if this thing with Meriweather blows-up).  At risk players are: Deaderick, Stroud, Banta-Cain, Love, Pryor, Wilhite, Butler and White I count 3 on special teams:  Goskowski, Mesko and a TBD long snapper. By "at risk" I simply mean these players could be moved for various reasons or could be upgraded in the draft.  So we have 38 pretty for sure safe players.  The only places where a rookie could start is at one of the OT positions should Light leave, one of the OG positions should Mankins hold out, one DE position if we drafted a real stud and one OLB position.  That would take us to 42 and we only dress 45.  I'm not counting any fringe players like Love, Maneri or guys that are already free agents like Taylor, Morris, Faulk, G, Warren etc. Now if we kept every single one of the at risk players that's 11 more taking us to 49.  There is only room on the roster for 53 or 4 more. If Mankins signs his tag, I don't see any rookie OG beating out Connolly.  There are no centers that would beat out Koppen the first year.  If Light gets extended, I don't see any rookie OT beating him or Vollmer out.  Unless we draft a truly elite WR, Green or Jones, Tate would seem to have his spot locked down, at least to start the season.  Nobody is going to dislodge Woodhead and unless we drafted a RB high like Ingram, BJGE would seem to have his spot locked.  So, there is a chance that no offensive rookie would start so we are drafting for depth and future. On defense Left Defensive End would seem to be up for grabs with Warren taking over at RDE.  Maybe Martez Wilson could beat out the Spikes/Guyton combo and start but no other ILB would seem capable their first year.  I really think Cunningham should move over to Ninkovich's spot and we make a play for Von Miller.  That would be an upgrade and address a major weakness.  Again, unless the Meriweather thing ends his days in NE, the secondary would seem to be set with the return of Bodden unless we somehow went up to get Peterson.  Peterson will end up being special but how much does he upgrade Bodden on Day 1?  He improves the punt return game but do we really want a top 5 pick returning kicks?  I doubt it, we didn't have McCourty doing it and he was great at it at Rutgers. So to summarize, the draft that makes the most immediate impact is either taking a Watt/Jordan/Dareus/Fairley to improve the DL or a Von Miller or Robert Quinn to improve the pass rush.  Miller doesn't have the baggage so I am advocating trading 17 and 28 to go up to 5 to get him.  It's all about improving our team more than our competition improves their teams.  Since we have the top pick in the 2nd only the team we trade up with, in this case ARI improves more than us after 2 picks in theory.  Do we really care if ARI gets better with all their holes?  If we hold our own in free agency, we will still have the best draft. I am a Reed/Acho supporter but who do they beat out, Cunningham?  Are we going to replace a 2nd round pick with a 2nd round pick albeit a better athlete?  I don't think so.  I really think BB makes the move up to get Miller and he immediately starts at ROLB with Cunningham replacing Ninkovich on the strong side which is where he belongs.  Miller at 6-3, 246 is the same height and just 4 lbs lighter than R. Colvin was.  Miller will add those 4 lbs and still have way more ability and speed than Colvin.  You want your elite pass rusher to have speed coming from the left tackle side.  LT are the better athletes compared to RT so put speed against speed and put power against power on the other side. The only other really cool idea is if we could come away with both Watt and Miller.  What if we get Miller at 7 with 17/33?  We could then package 28/60 to move up back up to 17.  Think about this ARI wants Newton or Gabbert.  Both are gone.  They trade 5 to us for 17 and 33.  We land Miller at 5 we get to 17 and Watt is still there.  We flip 28 and 60 to ARI and take JJ Watt.  Now ARI can land the 3rd best QB at 28 and fill a ton of holes while we address two specific big need and fill out the roster with depth. Imagine we plug our holes in the draft with 2 impact players on defense that can start day 1 adding back Bodden and Warren.  This is with out free agency.  #5    Von Miller #17  JJ Watt #74  James Carpenter #92  Jordan Todman #127 John Moffitt 5th  Jeff Maehl 6th  Mario Fannin
    Posted by Faucetman[/QUOTE]


    i love it faucet!
    the draft i shouted for with tons of good reasoning from the start!, a few months later a few of the regulars here coming around and one now finally shouting it!, albeit with the know how to make the digits work. again faucet, if i'm bb, you are working for me. still i might sacrifice a little of the end of your draft for moving up for a better, top  o lineman and tall free safety. but really i couldnt complain.

    keep it up.
    you only get better.
    everyone else climb on board.
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : Lifer, I guess I can agree with you especially if we are going to do my idea of moving up for an elite defensive player.  I still like the idea of an Maehl in the 5-6 round range.  We have to consider how many rookies can make our squad.  Actually, let's consider how many rookies could start or make significant contributions to 2011.  To determine that let's see how many current players are "safe".  I count 17 on offense (18 if Mankins signs his tag).  At risk players are: Slater, Mankins, Light and Kaczur I count 17 on defense (16 if this thing with Meriweather blows-up).  At risk players are: Deaderick, Stroud, Banta-Cain, Love, Pryor, Wilhite, Butler and White I count 3 on special teams:  Goskowski, Mesko and a TBD long snapper. By "at risk" I simply mean these players could be moved for various reasons or could be upgraded in the draft.  So we have 38 pretty for sure safe players.  The only places where a rookie could start is at one of the OT positions should Light leave, one of the OG positions should Mankins hold out, one DE position if we drafted a real stud and one OLB position.  That would take us to 42 and we only dress 45.  I'm not counting any fringe players like Love, Maneri or guys that are already free agents like Taylor, Morris, Faulk, G, Warren etc. Now if we kept every single one of the at risk players that's 11 more taking us to 49.  There is only room on the roster for 53 or 4 more. If Mankins signs his tag, I don't see any rookie OG beating out Connolly.  There are no centers that would beat out Koppen the first year.  If Light gets extended, I don't see any rookie OT beating him or Vollmer out.  Unless we draft a truly elite WR, Green or Jones, Tate would seem to have his spot locked down, at least to start the season.  Nobody is going to dislodge Woodhead and unless we drafted a RB high like Ingram, BJGE would seem to have his spot locked.  So, there is a chance that no offensive rookie would start so we are drafting for depth and future. On defense Left Defensive End would seem to be up for grabs with Warren taking over at RDE.  Maybe Martez Wilson could beat out the Spikes/Guyton combo and start but no other ILB would seem capable their first year.  I really think Cunningham should move over to Ninkovich's spot and we make a play for Von Miller.  That would be an upgrade and address a major weakness.  Again, unless the Meriweather thing ends his days in NE, the secondary would seem to be set with the return of Bodden unless we somehow went up to get Peterson.  Peterson will end up being special but how much does he upgrade Bodden on Day 1?  He improves the punt return game but do we really want a top 5 pick returning kicks?  I doubt it, we didn't have McCourty doing it and he was great at it at Rutgers. So to summarize, the draft that makes the most immediate impact is either taking a Watt/Jordan/Dareus/Fairley to improve the DL or a Von Miller or Robert Quinn to improve the pass rush.  Miller doesn't have the baggage so I am advocating trading 17 and 28 to go up to 5 to get him.  It's all about improving our team more than our competition improves their teams.  Since we have the top pick in the 2nd only the team we trade up with, in this case ARI improves more than us after 2 picks in theory.  Do we really care if ARI gets better with all their holes?  If we hold our own in free agency, we will still have the best draft. I am a Reed/Acho supporter but who do they beat out, Cunningham?  Are we going to replace a 2nd round pick with a 2nd round pick albeit a better athlete?  I don't think so.  I really think BB makes the move up to get Miller and he immediately starts at ROLB with Cunningham replacing Ninkovich on the strong side which is where he belongs.  Miller at 6-3, 246 is the same height and just 4 lbs lighter than R. Colvin was.  Miller will add those 4 lbs and still have way more ability and speed than Colvin.  You want your elite pass rusher to have speed coming from the left tackle side.  LT are the better athletes compared to RT so put speed against speed and put power against power on the other side. The only other really cool idea is if we could come away with both Watt and Miller.  What if we get Miller at 7 with 17/33?  We could then package 28/60 to move up back up to 17.  Think about this ARI wants Newton or Gabbert.  Both are gone.  They trade 5 to us for 17 and 33.  We land Miller at 5 we get to 17 and Watt is still there.  We flip 28 and 60 to ARI and take JJ Watt.  Now ARI can land the 3rd best QB at 28 and fill a ton of holes while we address two specific big need and fill out the roster with depth. Imagine we plug our holes in the draft with 2 impact players on defense that can start day 1 adding back Bodden and Warren.  This is with out free agency.  #5    Von Miller #17  JJ Watt #74  James Carpenter #92  Jordan Todman #127 John Moffitt 5th  Jeff Maehl 6th  Mario Fannin
    Posted by Faucetman[/QUOTE]

    Faucet,
    This is certainly exciting to read...and to dream about getting Miller and Watt in round 1. That would be a draft to remember.

    I think most of what you say makes sense. I've always been for adding high impact players even if 2 or 3, instead of adding 10 average players. This makes sense especially if the rookie cap goes into affect. Without it, paying a top 5-7 pick is going to make getting Mankins signed long term if that is our intent, very difficult..then adding pick 17 to the mix as well. Just something to think about.

    You can sign me up for your idea. It's bold and out of BB character, but in the end, it fills positions of need with quality talent that will not only start day 1, but probably pay big dividends.

    Do you think both of the trades go together? I've said in a previous post that in order for Miller to be widely successful, he's going to need a guy in front of him that can occupy double teams, and allow him to break free. If not Watt trading back to 17, then who? I think the pass rush would be improved with Miller, but I think it is exponentiallly improved with Miller and Watt as Watt occupies doubles, freeign up Miller, plus Watt can penetrate and collapse.

     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    MB

    Have you forgotten your first post about Ryan Kerrigan........have you put Brooks Reed ahead of him now?

    Keep coming back to Kerrigan after looking at all DE/OLB players.

    Something about this guy. BB smarts.
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : Faucet, Like always you make great points. If we were to do it, this would be the year to do so. I am for trading in 17 and 28 to move up. I honestly want to keep 33 because it will be too valuable a chip overnight and someone will sell their souls to the hooded one to grab the one they covet. If we do the move, I'm all in on Dareus. I'm with Mayock on this one saying Dareus is the best DL, possibly player in this draft. I would make that move. For Peterson and Miller I would have to think long and hard about it. I love both, but I still think our defense wins and loses based on the front 7, and for me it starts with the front 3. Dareus, Wilkfork and Warren would be a great trio. Add Brace, GWarren or Pyror to that mix and you got a nice front 4. Plus it is absolutely key to find a stud DE to open things up for the backers. I don't feel the same way about Watt nor Jordan. Again, like them both, but I don't think they are as dominant as Dareus. I'll get on the MB bus and target Reed in round 2. Reed sitting on Dareus' side while Dareus occupies double teams should allow Reed to get to the QB all day long.
    Posted by PatsLifer[/QUOTE]
    Hey Lifer,

    Here are the possible pick combos and where we could go.

    17/28/33 = 3
    17/28 = 5
    17/33 = 7
    17/60 = 11
    17/74 = 13
    17/92 = 15

    I don't think Dareus gets past Denver at 2.  We can't even get there if we wanted to.  Denver under Jeff Fox is switching back to the 43 and Dareus with his size is perfect as a 43 DT.  He is athletic enough to be a 34 DE but I think his real value is to stay inside.

    Predicting the first 4 picks I think Gabbert and Newton come off top 4 to some combination of CAR, BUF and CIN.  Palmer has had it there and he will keep his promise to retire if not traded.  BUF could certainly take a QB but I'm not as sure that they will as some of the hosts on NFL Network are saying.  BUF really loves to pick DBs and Peterson sitting there could be too much for them to stand.  They had bigger needs when they took CJ Spiller.  So, I'm going out on a limb and saying that Gabbert, Dareus, Peterson and Newton are coming off with the first 4 picks.  Bowers slides due to his knee.

    So, ARI is on the clock at 5.  ARI needs a QB but as we've seen, they've been burned recently by spending a high pick on a QB and they've been successful with Warner bringing in a veteran QB, not so successful with Anderson.  If they stay put they likely take Miller.  In fact I'm sure they take Miller if things unfold this way.  But if NE calls up and offers 17 and 28, they could take it given their many needs at QB, TE, OT, OG, OLB and CB.  If this happens great.  If not, either way Miller comes off the board at 5.

    On to CLE.  They have pressing needs at WR, OT, OG, DE, OLB, ILB, and FS.  As a 34 team in a tough defensive minded division, I'm going to buck the trend that says take Green and take Quinn.  They can move him around, put his hand in the dirt or stand him up.  Fairley could also be attractive here but I'm going with Quinn.

    Now SF, they need WR, C, DT, OLB, and CB.  The value of Green is getting to be too great but they picked Crabtree a few years ago.  Would they consider Aldon Smith this high?  Maybe.  How about Amukamara?  Maybe.  Fairley wouldn't seem to make sense as he isn't big enough to anchor a 34.  SF doesn't need a DE.  Would NE consider moving up with 17 and 33 for Fairley?  Unlike the talking heads, I think Fairley is plenty athletic enough to play 34 DE.  In fact I think he would excel there more so than JJ Watt.  Aldon Smith should be there for SF at 17 and with 33 or their own pick in the 2nd, they can get Phil Taylor who is perfectly suited to anchor a 34 defense.  I'm just not sure the Pats would pull the string for Fairley, for Miller I think yes.  Still Fairley would be intreguing because we can kick him inside in sub situations.  But he tires easily but that is due largely to his all out effort when he isn't tired.

    Let's consider other less dramatic moves up.  74 and 17 get us to 13 but I think MIN would take a little less value.  As I said before MIN would love their pick back to drop 5 spots.  Dropping 5 spots for the Moss mistake is so much better than losing a high 3rd altogether.  MIN needs a QB.  MIA and JAX are the only teams between them and 17 who might consider a QB so I think trading down for MIN to take the next one would be more appealing than taking one at 12.  Either Mallett or Luck could go to TEN or WAS leaving the other for MIN at 17.  So who do we consider at 12?  Watt for sure, perhaps Amukamara because DET will be all over him at 13.  What about Jones?  Great Nick Saban kid who would come in day 1 and be a difference maker against the Jets.  Jones and Peterson had quite a battle with each other.  We have good tape on Jones against the best CB in the land.  Jones ended up with 10/89/1.  It was his 3rd lowest YPC of the season but still a monster game.  Anything close to that against Revis would be a victory and could be a difference maker.

    Who else would be worth giving up 74 to get?  Smith? Bowers? Jordan?  Smith could be there by staying put.  Bowers doesn't fit our scheme and the knee is a concern.  Either Jordan or Watt could be there at 17.  So I don't know.

    I'm inclined to say let's try to go up for Miller.  But one big splash is enough.  At 33 maybe Carimi or Sherod.  Carimi might not get out of the first round but not far past that.  He can play LT, both OG positions and appears to be a natural RT.  Because of his diversity Carimi would be an excellent insurance policy to deal with the Mankins/Light situation.  Perhaps at 60 we continue to retool the OL with Wisniewski.  Or maybe we move up a bit for Rahim Moore or take Quinton Carter as insurance to Meriweather. 

    Who is at 74 that we like?  Jarvis Jenkins could be a nice value 34 DE.  Chimdi Chekwa? DeMarco Murray? Titus Young? Colin Kaepernick as a developmental prospect? 

    Here are some options with different trade up moves.  We can mix and match some of these players.  I really want to see what we can do with the top 3.

    Option 1

    5.  Von Miller
    33. Derek Sherod
    60. Stefen Wisniewski
    74. Jarvis Jenkins
    92. Jordan Todman

    Option 2.

    7.  Nick Fairley
    28. Gabe Carimi
    60. Stefen Wisniewski
    74. Dontay Moch
    92. Shane Vereen

    Option 3.

    12.  Julio Jones
    28.  Cameron Heyward
    33.  Derek Sherod
    60.  Sam Acho
    92.  John Moffitt

    Staying Put

    17.  Aldon Smith
    28.  Cameron Heyward
    33.  Derek Sherod
    60.  Stefen Wisniewski
    74.  DeMarco Murray
    92.  Austin Pettis

    I think I like all of these options.  Notice I don't have Watt anywhere?  I had to go get therapy to quit mocking him.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrustBill. Show TrustBill's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : WW, I don't think this is out of the realm of possiblity, this kid is the real deal, IMO.  His 10 yard split of 1.54 was the fastest that I can find for any OLB or DE prospect tested at the combine (compared to 1.66 for Acho who most have compared him to); the good thing is, it translates to the field as his burst off the snap is the first thing I noticed about him.  It may be the malt residue from last night, but the more I research this kid, the more I think his combo of burst, motor and desire gives this kid the potential to be special with some advanced NFL coaching. Here's my ideal draft: 17- JJ Watt 28- Brooks Reed 33- Danny Watkins 60- Randall Cobb (I still think he's top 50) 74- Shane Vereen 92- Mark Herzlich  4th- Owen Marecic 5th- Greg McElroy 6th- Shiloh Keo
    Posted by mbeaulieu07[/QUOTE]

    Is B Reed strong to set the edge against the run? For DE/OLB converts, I prefer stronger guys like Sheard, Houston, and Clayborn who can set the edge and rush the passer. Those three guys are comparable to Cunningham from the last draft.
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]MB Have you forgotten your first post about Ryan Kerrigan........have you put Brooks Reed ahead of him now? Keep coming back to Kerrigan after looking at all DE/OLB players. Something about this guy. BB smarts.
    Posted by sydpat[/QUOTE]

    sp,
    It's a good question but I wouldn't say that I've put Reed ahead of Kerrigan, atleast not yet.  I'd be happy to land either in the top 64.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrustBill. Show TrustBill's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : Hey Lifer, Here are the possible pick combos and where we could go. 17/28/33 = 3 17/28 = 5 17/33 = 7 17/60 = 11 17/74 = 13 17/92 = 15 I don't think Dareus gets past Denver at 2.  We can't even get there if we wanted to.  Denver under Jeff Fox is switching back to the 43 and Dareus with his size is perfect as a 43 DT.  He is athletic enough to be a 34 DE but I think his real value is to stay inside. Predicting the first 4 picks I think Gabbert and Newton come off top 4 to some combination of CAR, BUF and CIN.  Palmer has had it there and he will keep his promise to retire if not traded.  BUF could certainly take a QB but I'm not as sure that they will as some of the hosts on NFL Network are saying.  BUF really loves to pick DBs and Peterson sitting there could be too much for them to stand.  They had bigger needs when they took CJ Spiller.  So, I'm going out on a limb and saying that Gabbert, Dareus, Peterson and Newton are coming off with the first 4 picks.  Bowers slides due to his knee. So, ARI is on the clock at 5.  ARI needs a QB but as we've seen, they've been burned recently by spending a high pick on a QB and they've been successful with Warner bringing in a veteran QB, not so successful with Anderson.  If they stay put they likely take Miller.  In fact I'm sure they take Miller if things unfold this way.  But if NE calls up and offers 17 and 28, they could take it given their many needs at QB, TE, OT, OG, OLB and CB.  If this happens great.  If not, either way Miller comes off the board at 5. On to CLE.  They have pressing needs at WR, OT, OG, DE, OLB, ILB, and FS.  As a 34 team in a tough defensive minded division, I'm going to buck the trend that says take Green and take Quinn.  They can move him around, put his hand in the dirt or stand him up.  Fairley could also be attractive here but I'm going with Quinn. Now SF, they need WR, C, DT, OLB, and CB.  The value of Green is getting to be too great but they picked Crabtree a few years ago.  Would they consider Aldon Smith this high?  Maybe.  How about Amukamara?  Maybe.  Fairley wouldn't seem to make sense as he isn't big enough to anchor a 34.  SF doesn't need a DE.  Would NE consider moving up with 17 and 33 for Fairley?  Unlike the talking heads, I think Fairley is plenty athletic enough to play 34 DE.  In fact I think he would excel there more so than JJ Watt.  Aldon Smith should be there for SF at 17 and with 33 or their own pick in the 2nd, they can get Phil Taylor who is perfectly suited to anchor a 34 defense.  I'm just not sure the Pats would pull the string for Fairley, for Miller I think yes.  Still Fairley would be intreguing because we can kick him inside in sub situations.  But he tires easily but that is due largely to his all out effort when he isn't tired. Let's consider other less dramatic moves up.  74 and 17 get us to 13 but I think MIN would take a little less value.  As I said before MIN would love their pick back to drop 5 spots.  Dropping 5 spots for the Moss mistake is so much better than losing a high 3rd altogether.  MIN needs a QB.  MIA and JAX are the only teams between them and 17 who might consider a QB so I think trading down for MIN to take the next one would be more appealing than taking one at 12.  Either Mallett or Luck could go to TEN or WAS leaving the other for MIN at 17.  So who do we consider at 12?  Watt for sure, perhaps Amukamara because DET will be all over him at 13.  What about Jones?  Great Nick Saban kid who would come in day 1 and be a difference maker against the Jets.  Jones and Peterson had quite a battle with each other.  We have good tape on Jones against the best CB in the land.  Jones ended up with 10/89/1.  It was his 3rd lowest YPC of the season but still a monster game.  Anything close to that against Revis would be a victory and could be a difference maker. Who else would be worth giving up 74 to get?  Smith? Bowers? Jordan?  Smith could be there by staying put.  Bowers doesn't fit our scheme and the knee is a concern.  Either Jordan or Watt could be there at 17.  So I don't know. I'm inclined to say let's try to go up for Miller.  But one big splash is enough.  At 33 maybe Carimi or Sherod.  Carimi might not get out of the first round but not far past that.  He can play LT, both OG positions and appears to be a natural RT.  Because of his diversity Carimi would be an excellent insurance policy to deal with the Mankins/Light situation.  Perhaps at 60 we continue to retool the OL with Wisniewski.  Or maybe we move up a bit for Rahim Moore or take Quinton Carter as insurance to Meriweather.  Who is at 74 that we like?  Jarvis Jenkins could be a nice value 34 DE.  Chimdi Chekwa? DeMarco Murray? Titus Young? Colin Kaepernick as a developmental prospect?  Here are some options with different trade up moves.  We can mix and match some of these players.  I really want to see what we can do with the top 3. Option 1 5.  Von Miller 33. Derek Sherod 60. Stefen Wisniewski 74. Jarvis Jenkins 92. Jordan Todman Option 2. 7.  Nick Fairley 28. Gabe Carimi 60. Stefen Wisniewski 74. Dontay Moch 92. Shane Vereen Option 3. 12.  Julio Jones 28.  Cameron Heyward 33.  Derek Sherod 60.  Sam Acho 92.  John Moffitt Staying Put 17.  Aldon Smith 28.  Cameron Heyward 33.  Derek Sherod 60.  Stefen Wisniewski 74.  DeMarco Murray 92.  Austin Pettis I think I like all of these options.  Notice I don't have Watt anywhere?  I had to go get therapy to quit mocking him.
    Posted by Faucetman[/QUOTE]

    If we stay put, I'd like to see this:

    17.  Adrian Clayborn DE/OLB
    28. Gabe Carimi OT/OG
    33.  M.  Wilkerson DE/DT
    60. John Moffitt OG
    74. Marvin Austin DT/DE
    92. Chris Carter OLB

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : Hey Lifer, Here are the possible pick combos and where we could go. 17/28/33 = 3 17/28 = 5 17/33 = 7 17/60 = 11 17/74 = 13 17/92 = 15 I don't think Dareus gets past Denver at 2.  We can't even get there if we wanted to.  Denver under Jeff Fox is switching back to the 43 and Dareus with his size is perfect as a 43 DT.  He is athletic enough to be a 34 DE but I think his real value is to stay inside. Predicting the first 4 picks I think Gabbert and Newton come off top 4 to some combination of CAR, BUF and CIN.  Palmer has had it there and he will keep his promise to retire if not traded.  BUF could certainly take a QB but I'm not as sure that they will as some of the hosts on NFL Network are saying.  BUF really loves to pick DBs and Peterson sitting there could be too much for them to stand.  They had bigger needs when they took CJ Spiller.  So, I'm going out on a limb and saying that Gabbert, Dareus, Peterson and Newton are coming off with the first 4 picks.  Bowers slides due to his knee. So, ARI is on the clock at 5.  ARI needs a QB but as we've seen, they've been burned recently by spending a high pick on a QB and they've been successful with Warner bringing in a veteran QB, not so successful with Anderson.  If they stay put they likely take Miller.  In fact I'm sure they take Miller if things unfold this way.  But if NE calls up and offers 17 and 28, they could take it given their many needs at QB, TE, OT, OG, OLB and CB.  If this happens great.  If not, either way Miller comes off the board at 5. On to CLE.  They have pressing needs at WR, OT, OG, DE, OLB, ILB, and FS.  As a 34 team in a tough defensive minded division, I'm going to buck the trend that says take Green and take Quinn.  They can move him around, put his hand in the dirt or stand him up.  Fairley could also be attractive here but I'm going with Quinn. Now SF, they need WR, C, DT, OLB, and CB.  The value of Green is getting to be too great but they picked Crabtree a few years ago.  Would they consider Aldon Smith this high?  Maybe.  How about Amukamara?  Maybe.  Fairley wouldn't seem to make sense as he isn't big enough to anchor a 34.  SF doesn't need a DE.  Would NE consider moving up with 17 and 33 for Fairley?  Unlike the talking heads, I think Fairley is plenty athletic enough to play 34 DE.  In fact I think he would excel there more so than JJ Watt.  Aldon Smith should be there for SF at 17 and with 33 or their own pick in the 2nd, they can get Phil Taylor who is perfectly suited to anchor a 34 defense.  I'm just not sure the Pats would pull the string for Fairley, for Miller I think yes.  Still Fairley would be intreguing because we can kick him inside in sub situations.  But he tires easily but that is due largely to his all out effort when he isn't tired. Let's consider other less dramatic moves up.  74 and 17 get us to 13 but I think MIN would take a little less value.  As I said before MIN would love their pick back to drop 5 spots.  Dropping 5 spots for the Moss mistake is so much better than losing a high 3rd altogether.  MIN needs a QB.  MIA and JAX are the only teams between them and 17 who might consider a QB so I think trading down for MIN to take the next one would be more appealing than taking one at 12.  Either Mallett or Luck could go to TEN or WAS leaving the other for MIN at 17.  So who do we consider at 12?  Watt for sure, perhaps Amukamara because DET will be all over him at 13.  What about Jones?  Great Nick Saban kid who would come in day 1 and be a difference maker against the Jets.  Jones and Peterson had quite a battle with each other.  We have good tape on Jones against the best CB in the land.  Jones ended up with 10/89/1.  It was his 3rd lowest YPC of the season but still a monster game.  Anything close to that against Revis would be a victory and could be a difference maker. Who else would be worth giving up 74 to get?  Smith? Bowers? Jordan?  Smith could be there by staying put.  Bowers doesn't fit our scheme and the knee is a concern.  Either Jordan or Watt could be there at 17.  So I don't know. I'm inclined to say let's try to go up for Miller.  But one big splash is enough.  At 33 maybe Carimi or Sherod.  Carimi might not get out of the first round but not far past that.  He can play LT, both OG positions and appears to be a natural RT.  Because of his diversity Carimi would be an excellent insurance policy to deal with the Mankins/Light situation.  Perhaps at 60 we continue to retool the OL with Wisniewski.  Or maybe we move up a bit for Rahim Moore or take Quinton Carter as insurance to Meriweather.  Who is at 74 that we like?  Jarvis Jenkins could be a nice value 34 DE.  Chimdi Chekwa? DeMarco Murray? Titus Young? Colin Kaepernick as a developmental prospect?  Here are some options with different trade up moves.  We can mix and match some of these players.  I really want to see what we can do with the top 3. Option 1 5.  Von Miller 33. Derek Sherod 60. Stefen Wisniewski 74. Jarvis Jenkins 92. Jordan Todman Option 2. 7.  Nick Fairley 28. Gabe Carimi 60. Stefen Wisniewski 74. Dontay Moch 92. Shane Vereen Option 3. 12.  Julio Jones 28.  Cameron Heyward 33.  Derek Sherod 60.  Sam Acho 92.  John Moffitt Staying Put 17.  Aldon Smith 28.  Cameron Heyward 33.  Derek Sherod 60.  Stefen Wisniewski 74.  DeMarco Murray 92.  Austin Pettis I think I like all of these options.  Notice I don't have Watt anywhere?  I had to go get therapy to quit mocking him.
    Posted by Faucetman[/QUOTE]

    Again, I think you reasoning is sound in terms of who gets selected, by whom and when.

    Like you I think Fairley can play 3-4 DE and excel. I've been backing off of him for a bit due to character concerns/dirty play. But there is no denying he is a beast to block and plays hard.

    I guess the question is if we are moving up that aggressively, are we targeting someone specifically, or just seeing who falls a bit and then going after them? I don't think Miller gets beyond 5 as you say, and we know what that would cost us. Fairley, I can see him slipping to 7, but both are gone for sure by 11. So, if we wanted either one of those guys, then it's either move up to 5 or 7 and grab one. By no means do I want to go as high as 3 and give up 17/28/33. Too rich for my blood.

    If we moved up to 5 and grabbed Miller, we still have pick 33. I want this pick because if we did move up for Miller and grabbed him at 5, I would want to use 33 perhaps on Heyward or Wilkerson. Again, I still think we need a good DE opposite Warren, and I'm not comfortable with Stroud nor Deaderick/Brace. If they resigned GWarren, that could buy us another year, but this draft is stocked with DE talent, so why not grab one here. Generally, I like Heyward as well, and think he would be a fine 3-4 DE.

    So, I'll go with your option 1, but modified a bit...hope you don't mind...

    Option 1

    5.  Von Miller
    33. Cameron Heyward
    60. Stefen Wisniewski
    74. Joseph Barksdale
    92. Shane Vereen


     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : Is B Reed strong to set the edge against the run? For DE/OLB converts, I prefer stronger guys like Sheard, Houston, and Clayborn who can set the edge and rush the passer. Those three guys are comparable to Cunningham from the last draft.
    Posted by TrustBill[/QUOTE]

    TB,
    I haven't seen anything that would lead me to believe that Reed would be a liability vs. the run.
     

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