2011 Patriots Draft Options ***THANKS TO ALL WHO CONTRIBUTED!***

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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : So, he can't be coached up?  You can line him up anywhere including OLB on certain plays.  As a college DE his job was to get after the QB and contain on running plays.  He did that. 
    Posted by Faucetman[/QUOTE]

    I personally would draft players like Watt or Dunlap from last year.  I would move him around and ask him to do what he does best, that is, to get into the opposition's back-field ASAP.  To ask a player like Watt to just control the gap is kind of wasteful.  The question, would BB tweak the scheme to a more attacking style 3-4.

    Another topic, I like Mark Ingram at #17.  Don't give it too easily.  We need a back to rush with power, have some wiggle and catch the pass.  When the Jets sold out to play the pass, we would have made them pay dearly if we had a big-time back like Emmit Smith in his prime.  The question is: is Ingram truly elite?
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    "J.J. Watt would also be a good fit here, but the Pats WON'T draft him. Watt is represented by agent Tom Condon, who Belichick has an ongoing feud with stemming from the ugly Ben Watson negotiations some years ago. Belichick swore he would ABSOLUTELY NEVER even consider a prospect represented by Condon again, and so far, he's been true to his word." -- Walterfootball.com
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : I personally would draft players like Watt or Dunlap from last year.  I would move him around and ask him to do what he does best, that is, to get into the opposition's back-field ASAP.  To ask a player like Watt to just control the gap is kind of wasteful.  The question, would BB tweak the scheme to a more attacking style 3-4. Another topic, I like Mark Ingram at #17.  Don't give it too easily.  We need a back to rush with power, have some wiggle and catch the pass.  When the Jets sold out to play the pass, we would have made them pay dearly if we had a big-time back like Emmit Smith in his prime.  The question is: is Ingram truly elite?
    Posted by TrustBill[/QUOTE]


    First understand this comment has nothing to do with being for or against Ingram at 17.

    BGJE had a 4.8 yard average in the Jets playoff loss. Don't blame the back.

    Blame BB and OC, as Kraft did, with his "I don't know maybe a better game plan" comment when asked what they needed to win that game.

    They completely abandoned the run. He only had 9 carries. BJGE did his job.
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***


    Some good recent analysis on Watt. I'm not sold on the fact he isn't a fit for us, but do have questions like everyone else. Like LOW says, it's all about context. Do we know what he was asked to do vs. what he did?

    I do know one thing. Watt has the athletic ability that we seek in the position. He's fast, quick and strong...I have to agree with Faucet..if the kid has the physical tools, why can't be be coached up? Was he asked to play this way at Wisconsin, or did he pull a Meriweather?

    I think team see a lot in Watt, therefore, I"m not counting on him gettign to 17. I think he goes just inside or outside the top 10. If BB wants him, we know he has the tools to do it. If not, he sits tight and goes after Heyward perhaps. I don't think Wilkerson or Jordan are in his sights. I think (early) it comes down to Watt or Heyward.

    Lets assume for a second that BB does not go up to get Watt. That he sits tight and sees what develops. Watt goes off the board to someone in the 9-12 range. At 17, BB decides to trade out, trade 17 to Philly (23), or Seattle (25), and pick up a 3rd plus the team's 1st. Lets say he makes the trade with Philly...we take Carimi at 23, and get Philly's 3rd (86) in return. We then take Heyward at 28. We walk out of round 1 with Carimi at 23, and Heyward at 28, plus pick #85 from Philly.

    Day 2...With a break overnight, we field several calls from teams looking to acquire pick 33. We get several calls about 2012 1st rounders, plus 2nds this year. With the uncertainty but knowledge there most likely will be  2012 draft and season, we decide to trade 33 to Tenessee for their pick 39 plus their 3rd this year 71. With 33 Tenessee has their choice of remaining QB's...Mallett, Ponder, Dalton, Kaepernick... as they need a QB, and couldn't get who they wanted in round 1, and instead chose they chose Quinn.

    With pick 39, the Pats select "FILL IN THE BLANK".... We now have pick 60 left in round 2, with picks 71, 74, 86 and 92 waiting us in round 3. Having 4 picks in round, BB thinks about selling 2 of them for 2012 seconds. With the 2nd round winding down, BB decides to use pick 60. At 60, we select "FILL IN THE BLANK"...

    Anyone want to take a stab at continuing the above.....

     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]"J.J. Watt would also be a good fit here, but the Pats WON'T draft him. Watt is represented by agent Tom Condon, who Belichick has an ongoing feud with stemming from the ugly Ben Watson negotiations some years ago. Belichick swore he would ABSOLUTELY NEVER even consider a prospect represented by Condon again, and so far, he's been true to his word." -- Walterfootball.com
    Posted by NYPatsFan12[/QUOTE]

    i posted this a few pages back, also in my post i noted that if there is a rookie wage scale it wouldnt matter who represented the player, its been since 04(watson) that bb hasnt picked a condon represented player, and thats not a coincidence, condon also represents anthony costanzo, another guy that would fit well with the pats

     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : Thanks.  I'm not a fan of Ayers, especially at 17.  He had limited sack production and isn't especially fast.  He does have pass rush ability and moves but it hasn't translated on the field.  He had just 4 sacks in each of his last two years.  But Ayers has experience at OLB which others don't have.  Solder is a project.  He's almost too tall and doesn't bend well.  Solder did not impress me Senior Bowl week.  I have him as my 4th rated OT.  I like Heyward but we'd need to use 28 on him and hope he can avoid injury.  I love Kendall Hunter.  I'd view him as a great pick at 60.  Ryan Williams could end up being the best back in the draft but again, injury concerns.  Pouncey won't make it to 28, there are too many teams who need a C/G in that 21-27 range and his brother's success is really going to help him go early.  I like Pouncey but think we'd need to use 17 on him.  A really like Ballard too but he's tweaner.  I'm not sure where he fits.
    Posted by Faucetman[/QUOTE]
     

    i was looking at olb and de that play in the 34, heyward,ayers etc. easier to project them into the system than converting a de to olb etc. i really think solder or carimi will be the olineman the pats covet.
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : I have a question of fit based on his playing style. I have said it from the very first time I commented on him and have not been able to watch any new film to erase having a question. I see him as a better fit in a 3-4 1 gap system. He fits physically save for the "perfect" weight cause he's a gifted athlete and as you said he is clean off the field loves the game etc etc. He is compared to Mario Williams athletically but Mario wasn't drafted to play 3-4 DE. He has been excellent for Houston but we have to wait and see how that transition plays out down there. If you watch Jarvis Jenkins play and then watch JJ Watt play they play totally different style. Jarvis is almost always inside the trench dealing with the traffic and almost always take his man head on stands him up dead in his tracks looks around him and then tosses his blocker aside to make the tackle once he finds the ball. Watt is almost always playing as far outside as possible to make best use of his superior athletic ability and speed. Often opts to quickly side step his blocker and wildly run into the back field and then try and react to what is happening after the fact. This is not to say Jarvis is better than Watt. I am not saying that at all. I am giving a reason for my question on fit, over and above weight. The other thing that is "MY" issue, and its unfair to Watt, is I can never get that play in the bowl game out of my head. The one where its in the redzone, he has outside contain, crashes down and takes the inside fake hand off. He has inside help, nothing but traffic inside. The QB keeps it and waltzes easily into the left endzone right around the outside right where Watt vacated. That's not a physical limitation, it's a mental mistake, a dumb play. He's often over aggressive and with pure emotion and no control. I don't think its unreasonable to at least have a question on the guy.
    Posted by Low-FB-IQ[/QUOTE]

    It's all about projecting.  Watt was a 43 DE so naturally he'll need to make some adjustments if asked to move over to 34 DE and scouts will need to evaluate him to see if his ability translates to NE's scheme.  The question is, does he have the skill set and physical ability to hold up as 34 DE?  I don't see a glaring weakness that tells me he can't.

    Jenkins (who's primarily a DT in Clemson's 43 base scheme I believe?) was executing his assignment as was Watt, so it's a tough comparison (but also makes for an easier projection), though I love Jenkins as an option at 34 DE if they pass on one with their first 3 picks.  

    I don't think it's unreasonable to question the guy either, debating players is what makes this thread go.  
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : It's all about projecting.  Watt was a 43 DE so naturally he'll need to make some adjustments if asked to move over to 34 DE and scouts will need to evaluate him to see if his ability translates to NE's scheme.  The question is, does he have the skill set and physical ability to hold up as 34 DE?  I don't see a glaring weakness that tells me he can't. Jenkins (who's primarily a DT in Clemson's 43 base scheme I believe?) was executing his assignment as was Watt, so it's a tough comparison (but also makes for an easier projection), though I love Jenkins as an option at 34 DE if they pass on one with their first 3 picks.   I don't think it's unreasonable to question the guy either, debating players is what makes this thread go.  
    Posted by mbeaulieu07[/QUOTE]

    Absolutely MB.

    This is what comes back to haunt me when i think about him. ..and I am NOT saying I wouldn't take him.

    1) Weight vs typical target player, everyone knows 300 blah blah.

    2) Position vs typical target, Pats draft far more DT's to play DE than DE's. Almost exclusively.

    3) Seymour and Warren are not considered ridiculous athletes(combine numbers wise)  but they are very good ones and not slouches.


    4) Experience, only 2 years, ever, to play the position and hardly non of it playing inside in the trench dealing with traffic. ...so total projection. Pats have propensity for more experienced players with more film to evaluate.

    5) You more than likely have to trade up to get him even with the previous 4 things hanging over him.

    This happens to me every year. There are players I like and I put them on my short list but i know the Pats most likely will not draft them. I am trying to do less of that this year. (i.e. see removal of Acho from list)

    IF Watt's workout numbers were not over the top I probably would not be arguing with myself at all. He simply would not be on the list. His numbers however, if you are a numbers guy, are special so it makes me wonder what if.

    Is this the draft BB throws all the stuff in blue out the window? People ask it every year but it never really seems to happen.
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : First understand this comment has nothing to do with being for or against Ingram at 17. BGJE had a 4.8 yard average in the Jets playoff loss. Don't blame the back. Blame BB and OC, as Kraft did, with his "I don't know maybe a better game plan" comment when asked what they needed to win that game. They completely abandoned the run. He only had 9 carries. BJGE did his job.
    Posted by Low-FB-IQ[/QUOTE]

    Hi, Low:  They did not abandon the run in the second.  They just ran with Woodhead.  Here is the drive log in the fourth quater:
    1st-10, NE18 12:55 D. Woodhead rushed to the left for 4 yard gain
    2nd-6, NE22 12:20 D. Woodhead rushed to the left for 2 yard gain. D. Woodhead fumbled. L. Mankins recovered fumble
    3rd-4, NE27 11:28 T. Brady passed to W. Welker down the middle for 8 yard gain
    1st-10, NE35 10:50 T. Brady incomplete pass down the middle
    2nd-10, NE35 10:45 D. Woodhead rushed to the left for 4 yard gain
    3rd-6, NE39 10:03 T. Brady passed to D. Branch to the left for 8 yard gain
    1st-10, NE47 9:28 B. Green-Ellis rushed to the left for 3 yard gain
    2nd-7, 50 8:47 D. Woodhead rushed up the middle for 8 yard gain
    1st-10, NYJ42 8:23 D. Woodhead rushed to the right for 7 yard gain
    2nd-3, NYJ35 7:40 New England committed 5 yard penalty
    2nd-8, NYJ40 7:24 T. Brady passed to W. Welker to the left for 9 yard gain
    1st-10, NYJ31 6:49 D. Woodhead rushed to the right for no gain
    2nd-10, NYJ31 6:09 T. Brady sacked by S. Pouha
    3rd-13, NYJ34 5:30 T. Brady incomplete pass to the right
    4th-13, NYJ34 5:15 T. Brady incomplete pass to the left
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : Hi, Low:  They did not abandon the run in the second.  They just ran with Woodhead.  Here is the drive log in the fourth quater: 1st-10, NE18 12:55 D. Woodhead rushed to the left for 4 yard gain 2nd-6, NE22 12:20 D. Woodhead rushed to the left for 2 yard gain. D. Woodhead fumbled. L. Mankins recovered fumble 3rd-4, NE27 11:28 T. Brady passed to W. Welker down the middle for 8 yard gain 1st-10, NE35 10:50 T. Brady incomplete pass down the middle 2nd-10, NE35 10:45 D. Woodhead rushed to the left for 4 yard gain 3rd-6, NE39 10:03 T. Brady passed to D. Branch to the left for 8 yard gain 1st-10, NE47 9:28 B. Green-Ellis rushed to the left for 3 yard gain 2nd-7, 50 8:47 D. Woodhead rushed up the middle for 8 yard gain 1st-10, NYJ42 8:23 D. Woodhead rushed to the right for 7 yard gain 2nd-3, NYJ35 7:40 New England committed 5 yard penalty 2nd-8, NYJ40 7:24 T. Brady passed to W. Welker to the left for 9 yard gain 1st-10, NYJ31 6:49 D. Woodhead rushed to the right for no gain 2nd-10, NYJ31 6:09 T. Brady sacked by S. Pouha 3rd-13, NYJ34 5:30 T. Brady incomplete pass to the right 4th-13, NYJ34 5:15 T. Brady incomplete pass to the left
    Posted by TrustBill[/QUOTE]


    Thanks TB, I stand corrected.

    My larger point I guess was that I was thinking a lot of those Woody runs were of the cutesy nature, draws etc, and not traditional line up and run the ball with your #1 back.

    That , imo, still seems to say though that you wouldn't want to use that particular game and BJGE's performance as the catalyst for making the decision to pull the trigger for a back earlier than you "might" otherwise.
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : I would prefer Aldon Smith to Robert Quinn. Quinn seems stiffer. I also don't like that Quinn didn't play last year. I value Jordon over Watt, but I think I now like Heyward over both of them. If I was to redo the draft now, I'd take Smith at 17, Carimi at 21, and Heyward at 25. Trading players was somewhat of an advantage. Really getting that extra first round pick. I would prefer Mankins re-signing with us. In that situation, though, I'm forced to trade him since everyone on that site would assume he's gone and that we'd need a guard. In that sense, it's a pick for me for nothing. The TBC, Maneri, and Thomas trades were also more for the benefit of those on the site there, false moves I guess. As for BB, I don't have a line through to him, but I do channel him sometimes.
    Posted by KyleCleric2[/QUOTE]


    re  "As for BB, I don't have a line through to him, but I do channel him sometimes."

    :)

    i like smith or quinn.
    people that know (better than i) have him as the best paas rushing olb (including mayock). understand on offf thefield etc. small infraction. loss of year yes.  still seen him mocked 1-6 wiht all that. if he drops (you take aldon if availble at 17 over quinn i understand). i think quinn also starts sooner and will be better against the run.

    can you give me your detailed analysis of why heyward over watt?
    again watt is shooting up with everyone including mayock. they all believe he is a top 10 talent.  heyward top 15 last year. not that this year. fill me in.


    i really dont care who(at olb and de in the draft) as long as they can do the job of consistent pass rush and run stopping.

    and re carimi for nothing?
    if we exchange carimi for mankins, we save a lot of money. that is  one plus.
    ifelt we should have signed him a long time ago. (what message do yo send your team?, bleed foer us, we'll use you cheap for years, then screw with you).
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** :   i was looking at olb and de that play in the 34, heyward,ayers etc. easier to project them into the system than converting a de to olb etc. i really think solder or carimi will be the olineman the pats covet.
    Posted by isurfvb35[/QUOTE]

    to me...carimi yes...solder no.
    difference is that solder will give up a sack or a penalty whe he makes a mistake. carimi has shown the ability to save a play when he makes a mistake.
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : Both are solid character guys, clean off the field, hard working, devoted, smart and good team mates.  I don't see any separation in them from an intangibles perspective.  It depends on who fits better within your organization.  I think Jordan would be more attractive to 43 teams where Watt is more attractive to 34 teams but either player can play end or kick inside in nickel formations.  Going to 9 to get Watt isn't a clean move for us.  I agree Houston is a huge threat to take him but so is Dallas and so is Washington.  Houston had one of the worst defenses last year.  One mock I saw has Dallas taking Jordan, Washington taking Newton, Houston taking Amukamara and Watt sliding to us.  Some 34 teams may prefer Jordan since he is the better pass rusher.  But I don't think Watt is going to make it to 17.  SD sitting at 18 with 5 picks in the first 3 rounds could easily move up if they like Watt.  Miami at 15 would like to trade down.  Pouncey and Ingram make the most sense for them and both could be had at 17 or 18.  SD could offer them 18/89 where we'd be offering 17/92, the edge would go to SD even though we'd be offering more points.  STL at 14 is an option.  They would also like Pouncey if Jones is gone.  They may also want Corey Liuget and 14 is too high for him.  But again, the best play is MIN at 12.  SD could offer 18/61 which is 1192 points where pick 12 is worth 1200.  17/74 is worth only 1170.  17/60 is worth 1250.  Is Watt worth our late 2nd? Another big problem that is brewing is a few of the elite players appear to be dropping.  Bowers has the knee concern.  Quinn has the brain tumor issue (although most think he's ok) and didn't play last year.  Fairley is being questioned as a one year wonder as is Bowers and Fairley's work ethic has been called into question.  Mayock said he wouldn't touch him in the first round and he has the "dirty player" rap.  For Watt to have any chance of getting to 12 those three guys need to go ahead of him along with the two QBs. Dareus, Peterson, Miller, Gabbert, Newton, Green, Jones, Amukamara; that's 8 sure bets to be gone by 12.  I think Quinn isn't in as much danger of falling so that's 9.  So, who takes a chance on Bowers and Fairley?
    Posted by Faucetman[/QUOTE]


    bowers will work out before the draft. if he is ok, he will be top 8. fairley even sliding  doubt he gets past 10. you never know obviously. if you need watt, you find out what dallas and houston will do. if nto if yo dont find out , you trade with dallas if he is yoru player.

    better than 50-50 i think, that jordan, watt, smith, and quinn dont make it to 17.
    yo have heard many people say it im sure, "eveybody (near everybody)  needs a pass rush."

    that is why , i think if any of them slip to where you can reach, including bowers and fairley, you take them , if you are satisfied with interviews off the field.

    i dont mention dareus or miller who are same category, but no way they slip past 5 and may not make it past 3.

    bring home the pressuring de and olb!
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : Thanks, we are all passionate.  I like Watt better than Jordan as I've stated but Watt at 9 giving up 17/60/124 vs. Jordan at 17, if those were choices, I'd stay put at 17 and take Jordan.  By the way, we now know we are at 125 with only one 3rd round comp pick awarded. If Watt is a must (and I'm not saying he is) we have to find a way to get there without giving up 3 picks.  We must also consider Dallas' needs.  They aren't going to move out of 9 unless they see they can get the player they want.  Dallas' top needs IMO are DE, OT, CB, OG, FS, SS in that order.  They never take OL in the 1st and there are no safeties worthy of a 1st.  This means Dallas has to see a CB or DE at 17 that makes sense to them unless they are finally going to break their pattern and take a Pouncey or OT at 17.  Dallas might be willing to take a shot at Jimmy Smith at 17 but they have to assume DET won't reach for their top need, CB.  We know two teams expressed interest in moving up to 9.  I only assume it was a team looking to take Amukamara, but we shouldn't rule out Quinn, Jones or Newton being the target.  STL may want to jump ahead of WAS for Jones.  HOU and DET want the CB and MIN may want to get ahead of WAS for Newton.  These smaller moves back are safer for Dallas unless of course they really want to target OL, then 17 makes the most sense.  To get to 9, we could do 17/28 for 9/71.  OUCH!!  Or 17/33/125 for 9/71.  That's too much.  Ironically I'd be fine with 17/28 for Miller but no not fine with either of those deals for Watt. Bottom line, I can't see us going to 9 for Watt.  We don't even know if BB thinks DL is a priority.  We've discussed Miller and Watt.  What about Quinn?  Mayock seems to think he's a 43 DE but a lot of 34 teams needing an OLB are interested in him.  If Quinn gets past SF at 7, there are no 34 teams needing an OLB until the Pats at 17 except maybe HOU at 11.  Also equally interesting, the only 43 team after 7 needing a DE are MIN (12) and JAX (16).  DET (13) may go Quinn if they don't get a CB or take OL.  If MIN takes a QB, Quinn could drop all the way to 16.  Do we leap frog JAX for him? Is there a case to be made where Quinn gets past 8?  If there is, he could free fall all the way to 16 unless someone moves up.  Candidates to move up are TB (20), NO (24) and NYG (19), and KC (21).  We would be in a great position to move up for Quinn if he falls past MIN.  If Watt goes and both Jordan and Quinn get past MIN, look out.  We could do something.  DET could very well take one of them then whomever is left makes it to 16.
    Posted by Faucetman[/QUOTE]

    quinn and jordan at 16, id preefr quinn presuming we could get heyward or the next best de after jordan.  or trade up for 16 from 28 and take both at 16 and 17. anyway get your best de on the board after watt plus quinn in that scenario. im also ok with aldon and the de.
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:

    re:
    Here's a scenario that could easily unfold.  What if this happened, who do we take?

    14-3CARMarcell DareusDT
    24-3DENPatrick PetersonCB
    33-4BUFVon MillerOLB
    44-3CINCam NewtonQB
    53-4ARIBlaine GabbertQB
    64-3CLEAJ GreenWR
    73-4SFJulio JonesWR
    84-3TENNick FairleyDT
    93-4DALJJ WattDE
    103-4WASCameron JordanDE
    113-4HOUPrince AmukamaraCB
    124-3MINRobert QuinnDE
    134-3DETDa'Quan BowersDE
    144-3STLCorey LiugetDT
    153-4MIAMike PounceyOG
    164-3JAXAldon SmithOLB

    This would be a disaster.  The only options I see are an OT, Kerrigan, Ingram or a trade down.  Let's explore.

    If Tyron Smith  kills it at his Pro Day, he'd have to be considered.  Barely 20, he's a natural LT who played RT so BB will like that he can move him to either side.  He compares favorably for what we look for in an OT.  With an uncertain future with Light and Kaczur Smith has the most upside of the OTs IMO.  I think if BB were to pull the trigger on an OL type this high (15 spots higher than he has ever done it before), Smith would make the most sense for his upside and potential to be special.

    Smith 6-6, 307, 5.08, 29 reps 
    Vollmer 6-8, 312, 5.12 DNP reps

    We discussed Ryan Kerrigan a ton, does he fit standing up in a 34?  He's a great kid, called Superman by his team mates, he's a natural leader, co-captain.  He also fills a big need for us as a pass rusher.  But, the question has to be answered, does it fit into a 34?

    None of us like Mark Ingram at 17 much less 33.  But we have to consider the Heisman Trophy winner based on the Nick Saban connection and that all the guys at Alabama are emphatically saying that Ingram is the next Emmitt Smith.  Not just Saban and the Alabama people are saying this, Marshall Faulk has said it.  We have to consider that in 2009 Ingram broke the Alabama school record with 1,658 years and he did so against 6 top 25 ranked teams.  His down 2010 could be contributed to having his knee scoped just days before the start of the 2010 season.  He missed the first two games, but when he came back he scored a pair of TD in each of his first 3 games back.  He production also dipped because of the emergence of his Trent Richardson, but Ingram still averaged 5.6 ypc in the toughest conference. 

    Let's not forget BB drafted Maroney at 21, just 4 spots behind where we are.  Does BB value the opinion of Nick Saban and buy into the idea that Ingram could be the next Emmitt Smith?  If we wind the clock back one year a lot of us were drooling about the prospect of getting a high pick from the Raiders and being able to land Ingram.  Obvious that was before BJGE emerged and before Ingram had a "down" year.  I think we need to consider his at 17 if he gets past Miami.  TB is sitting at 20 and they'd be delighted to get him.  Brady isn't going to play forever and a young QB can really benefit from a power running game.  I'm not advocating we take Ingram or that BB would consider a RB this high again, I'm just throwing this out there.


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    four teams you dont have taking qb's have qb needs. many top analysts have 3-5 or qbs going round 1 including seattle.

    i'm thinking 1 more of those teams you don't have taking qb before us do.

    2ndly,
    of course it is an option. they are all the best defensive players in the draft, outside of pouncey and the qb's.

    if you are the kerrigan guys here, you take kerrigan.

    if you think he can play standing up,  can pick up bb's system and get after the passer in the nfl, hell yeah, take kerrigan and get the best de left.


    if i'm bb, ive had these interviews, do the film test with all of them; i know their background and whether i think they can play in my system and stand for the patriot way.  i target 2 olb's and 2 de's from 16 and above here plus kerrigan and i map out a way to get my tandem with an "a" option and a fallback option for my 2nd choice in each case.  knowing bb, if he did do this he would find the cheapest way of doing it (ie players of these who would likely fall the farthest).
    then i get my 2 offensive lineman . if any bullets left, what diamonds in the rough might help our team. hit fa fo rb and wide receiver. tell craft to get his -it together and get a cba done the week after the draft.

    goal: 2 in 4.
    brady retires most sb wins in history.

    bb sticks around another 10 yrs.  becomes the  coach with most sb wins in history winning 3-5 in the 10 years after brady's retirement, finally learning some flexibility, trading up when it is more prudent and becoming  comfortable again having weighty coordinators working for him like the weisses, etc.

    we all live happy into our later years and tell the stories.

    the u.s. quits these senseless wars to make billionaires richer, and nations work together for the actual betterment of the lives of ALL world citizens.

    the end.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from brdbreu. Show brdbreu's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]I just got chastised by my brother for just saying Ingram's name.  He thinks we need to use 17/33 to move up to 7 to be sure we get Watt.  Then at 28 we take the best OT left, assuming there is one left.  My brother also thinks Wilkerson should be an option at 28 and didn't agree with my level of competition concerns.  My brother would rather have Wilkerson than Jordan.  I agree that Jordan is probably best suited as a 43 DE. JJ Watt one spot below where we got Richard Seymour is kind of ironic in that we'd be using the pick we got for Seymour plus a late 3rd that we converted to pick 33 because CAR was stupid.  Getting Watt at 7 would be basically getting him for Seymour and a late 3rd.  We would have lost Seymour after 2009 anyway so this is basically a 3rd and Comp 3rd if you look at what we gave up. JJ Watt is without doubt the best 5 technique option in the draft.  His 6 PDef is amazing for a DE.  All of them were batted balls which is almost as good as a sack because if they happen on 3rd down, they end the series.  His two FF and INT are also impressive.  Watt lives in the backfield, he disrupts plays, he has a non stop motor, he has Patriot written all over him. So, do we give up 33 to get him?  I guess we need to decide what we would do with 33 if we kept it.  If we are able to trade 28 down to a team looking to get back up for a QB or the SD deal, we could be back in the low 30s.  There could be no OTs left at 28 so we would be looking at OT at the back of the 2nd anyway.  We could take care of our interior OL needs with Watkins or Wisniewski or even later on with Moffitt, Schilling, Ijalana, etc. At 33 maybe Houston, Ayers, Wilson or a back like Ryan Williams or Mikel LeShoure we would lose out on.  We can always get a back later on.  Ayers doesn't impress me and Houston reminds me of Aaron Maybin or Larry English. My brother interviewed Greg Romeus the other day.  He claims that his back is 100% and his repaired ACL is on schedule to be ready for the start of 2011 season.  I know someone else threw his name out there so this isn't my idea but if healthy, Romeus could be an excellent reward over risk player in the 5th round.  He had 7 sacks in 2008 and 8 in 2009 before his senior year was pretty much erased by two injuries. At 17, we're in jail.  There is likely going to be nothing there to get excited about.  SF needs a NT, it's their #1 need.  PhilTaylor could be had at 17 before KC or NYJ.  They also need a C and Pouncey could make sense for them.  Then at 33 SF could address OLB or WR.  This would be a good move for them since they aren't going to get Miller or Peterson.  Someone is going to want to come up to 28 to get Ponder, Mallett or Locker.
    Posted by Faucetman[/QUOTE]

    disagree on sf #1 need. their #1 need is quarterback. they dont have a starter.
    your comments?
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from brdbreu. Show brdbreu's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : Interesting. When is Heyward supposedly working out for everyone? Has he been cleared to do so? IF Heyward has a good pro day or workout, he could push himself up in the draft. There are only so many spots however, so other players could slip. I like Heyward too, but was cautious due to his injury and "rumor" about his motor. Honestly, I watched him a few times over the last 2 years, plus tape, he I can't see any motor issues. To me, he resembles the type of DE we would want most in this draft. The question for me on him is health (that elbow) and those nasty rumors about his motor. I dont buy the latter however. If we don't have to trade up from 17 to get an impact player, but in fact trade down, we have much more flexibiliy to fill all types of holes. I'd rather see us come down from 17 to 20-21, land someone like ASmith if he is there, use 28 on Heyward, pick up another 2nd, and use 1 of those on the combination of Wisnewski or Watkins, one possibly on BReed, and grab a WR (Cobb, Young) So something like this...assuming Heyward checks out..I like him 20 - ASmith 28 - Heyward (I think this is the spot for him..I think if goes beyond 28, he goes to the Jets perhaps) 33 - Watkins, possibly slight trade down, but 33 is roughly it. 51 - (Whatever 2nd we get from moving 17 down to 20) - BReed 60 - Titus Young or RCobb 74 - Barksdale (RT insurance)...
    Posted by PatsLifer[/QUOTE]

    hey patslife!,

    if heyward is that beast he was on bowl day in the nfl, and if aldon drops that far, that would be a great pickup. however, i mostly see aldon mocked by the top guys as either top ten or low teens.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from brdbreu. Show brdbreu's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : Ha, in the words of Parcells, I reserve the right to change my mind.  We'll see what the voices in my head are telling me come late april.
    Posted by mbeaulieu07[/QUOTE]

    (laughing) :)
    (laughing)

    hopefully theyre saying
    incredible draft!
    here we come super bowl!
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : I echo Mb's question, what are your concerns about JJ Watt?  However, I totally agree that trading up for Julio Jones has merit.  We might not even have to get to 10 to get him because if Washington address other needs, Jones should slip to STL at 14.  Let's say we use 17/60 to get to 10 and both Watt and Jones are there, you'd take Jones.  A strong case could be made for either and I would be thrilled to death to get either. Julio Jones, 6-3, 220, 4.34 .  Had big time production at Alabama.  Played in the tough SEC for Nick Saban, a long time BB buddy.  Jones went up against the top CB in Patrick Peterson and put up 10/89/1.  Peterson limited his big plays to a long of 19 but Jones had a big game against the best corner in college football.  Jones is a tough strong kid.  He broke his hand in a game (I think it was Mississippi), had two screws inserted and was back on the field the following week.  He ran a 4.34 at the Combine with a broken foot.  So, Jones will play with pain.  He's a strong kid who will block down field and battle for the ball.  Jones will absolutely take the top of a defense and make big plays.  He could win some match ups with Revis which would be huge.  The downside are questions about his durability.  But as a player and person, he would be an excellent fit.  Jones immediately upgrades Tate and should Branch go down or if Branch should leave after 2011, Jones would become our #1 WR and big threat and weapon for Brady. JJ Watt, 6-6, 292, 4.81 .  Watt possesses the perfect size for a 34 DE.  He has adequate frame to add 10-15 lbs.  Watt is an absolute physical freak running a 4.81 at his size and putting up a 37" vertical.  There were safeties at the Combine not this athletic.  Watt's times were better than any times put up by any of our OLB's at their Combines.  Watt benched 34 reps which is really good.  But the most important thing is Watt's tape backs up his physical skills.  Watt is a tireless player.  Lott IMPACT Trophy winner … AP and SI second-team All-American … consensus first-team All-Big Ten … Academic All-Big Ten … Team MVP … Academic All-Big Ten … Led team in TFLs, sacks, quarterback hurries, forced fumbles and blocked kicks … second on team in tackles, pass breakups and passes defended … tied for sixth in school history with 21.0 tackles for loss in single season, 91 TFL yards ranks seventh … three blocked kicks is tied for second-most in one year at UW.  If you consider his knack for batting down passes and sacks, he could easily end an average of one series a game.  The man is 6-6 with long arms and a 37" vertical.  I bet he can touch the top of a backboard.  I bet he would block a couple of FGs a year.  As a former TE I could see him used on goal line situations like we used to do with Vrabel.  Imagine having to defend Gronkowski and Watt at the goal line?       Both players are elite, both are game changers, both are high motor guys who are clean off the field.  It comes down to which do we value more.  If you look at our history of BB drafting 3 DL in the first round and no WRs, I think that answers the question.  But BB doesn't usually make bold moves up this high in the draft.  Would he go to 10 for either player?  I don't know.  I could see him going to 13 if Jones is there but I can't see Watt getting past HOU at 11.
    Posted by Faucetman[/QUOTE]

    jones is dynamite potential at receiver. i wouldnt touch receiver till i've got 4 position players that you may know by now, olb, de, 2 o lineman. even then, easier to pickup a receiver in fa and you know their potentiual already in the nfl.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from brdbreu. Show brdbreu's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : No that's it.  Taking 2 gold watches from your agent and blowing your entire junior year and jeopardizing your pro career is a major concern.  The brain tumor is another concern, albeit a lesser one.  Not playing last year is another concern.  Was Quinn's sophomore year a fluke?  People are raising the same issues about Fairley and Bowers in terms of all they one year wonders?  If Ingram was coming off his sophomore year, he'd be a top 5 or 10 pick but because he played last year and was beat up a bit, he had a down year, plus he had less touches because of the emergence of Trent Richardson.  So, Ingram is being punished for playing while Quinn gets a free pass. We need players who are grounded and not apt to make mistakes.  We took a chance on Meriweather.  He held it together for awhile but now look.  Zebra's don't change their stripes and taking a player in the top 10 and paying them a guaranteed $30MM + (depending on if there's a rookie cap), makes them too risky.  I would not be surprised if Robert Quinn's name isn't even on BB's draft board.
    Posted by Faucetman[/QUOTE]

    faucet and all

    re:

    "Zebra's don't change their stripes and taking a player in the top 10 and paying them a guaranteed $30MM + (depending on if there's a rookie cap), makes them too risky.  I would not be surprised if Robert Quinn's name isn't even on BB's draft board."


    some people are knuckleheads and will never learn to think things through, because they dont have the motivation to.


    the rest of us learn by making mistakes. it's how all humans learn.
    using insightful language: there are no mistakes, only lessons learned (ie experience).

    because guy "a" continues to not think before acting, or use insight, does not mean guy "b" or guy "c" is incapable of learning from their experiences ("mistakes").  it's an imprecise thing, and hard to predict (however a good judge of personality or character has a good shot at getting some helpful information from somoe conversation/evaluation.)

    also because person "b" has not made a mistake, been caught and exposed publicly, does not mean person "b" has not made more egregious or similar mistakes.


    lastly, if all of us had every wrong choice we have made in our lives made public, none  of us would be deemed "fit" for anything. the point is not that we are all  insanely crimninal (i dont believe we all are), but that none of us live up to the expectation of perfection.

     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***



    i In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : No that's it.  Taking 2 gold watches from your agent and blowing your entire junior year and jeopardizing your pro career is a major concern.  The brain tumor is another concern, albeit a lesser one.  Not playing last year is another concern.  Was Quinn's sophomore year a fluke?  People are raising the same issues about Fairley and Bowers in terms of all they one year wonders?  If Ingram was coming off his sophomore year, he'd be a top 5 or 10 pick but because he played last year and was bdont know what else eat up a bit, he had a down year, plus he had less touches because of the emergence of Trent Richardson.  So, Ingram is being punished for playing while Quinn gets a free pass. We need players who are grounded and not apt to make mistakes.  We took a chance on Meriweather.  He held it together for awhile but now look.  Zebra's don't change their stripes and taking a player in the top 10 and paying them a guaranteed $30MM + (depending on if there's a rookie cap), makes them too risky.  I would not be surprised if Robert Quinn's name isn't even on BB's draft board.
    Posted by Faucetman[/QUOTE]


    re:

    "We took a chance on Meriweather.  He held it together for awhile but now look."

    i dont know what else he has done, but the only thing at the moment it appears he did was be at a family and friend gathering, break up a fight, get shot at, and be the only one there worth money. so shooties name him in a civil suit, not the gang member with  a record as long as your arm, with no legit money and lots of affiliates who could finish the job or target shooties family if they pointed the finger at him.

    now re: his play, i already stated at end of year i want him out and replaced before day 1 of season.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from brdbreu. Show brdbreu's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : I have a question of fit based on his playing style. I have said it from the very first time I commented on him and have not been able to watch any new film to erase having a question. I see him as a better fit in a 3-4 1 gap system. He fits physically save for the "perfect" weight cause he's a gifted athlete and as you said he is clean off the field loves the game etc etc. He is compared to Mario Williams athletically but Mario wasn't drafted to play 3-4 DE. He has been excellent for Houston but we have to wait and see how that transition plays out down there. If you watch Jarvis Jenkins play and then watch JJ Watt play they play totally different style. Jarvis is almost always inside the trench dealing with the traffic and almost always take his man head on stands him up dead in his tracks looks around him and then tosses his blocker aside to make the tackle once he finds the ball. Watt is almost always playing as far outside as possible to make best use of his superior athletic ability and speed. Often opts to quickly side step his blocker and wildly run into the back field and then try and react to what is happening after the fact. This is not to say Jarvis is better than Watt. I am not saying that at all. I am giving a reason for my question on fit, over and above weight. The other thing that is "MY" issue, and its unfair to Watt, is I can never get that play in the bowl game out of my head. The one where its in the redzone, he has outside contain, crashes down and takes the inside fake hand off. He has inside help, nothing but traffic inside. The QB keeps it and waltzes easily into the left endzone right around the outside right where Watt vacated. That's not a physical limitation, it's a mental mistake, a dumb play. He's often over aggressive and with pure emotion and no control. I don't think its unreasonable to at least have a question on the guy.
    Posted by Low-FB-IQ[/QUOTE]

    re:

    "Watt is almost always playing as far outside as possible to make best use of his superior athletic ability and speed. Often opts to quickly side step his blocker and wildly run into the back field and then try and react to what is happening after the fact."


    hi low,

     yes of course it's not unreasonable to give any alternative opinions and to question players, picks.

    i think i also see what you see. hes a mad dash after the qb, not playing bb's de role. but does bb see in him the ability and believe he can teach him his system?
    is watt the best shot for bb's sytem and to pressure the qb. if not, move up, down or stay pat to get the guy who is. 

    you feel jenkins will consistently pressure the passer, stop the run and hoild his lanes?


    it seems the analysts do feel watt will be a force at de to pressure the passer and all around be a very good de. they call him the best 5 technique in the draft. they could all be wrong. i acknowledge that. if you see something lets discuss. (the "bad" in him, the good in player "?").

     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]Here's my somewhat reasonably realistic dream draft without trades. 17.   DE JJ Watt 28.   OT Tyron Smith 33.   RB Mark Ingram 60.   C/G Stefen Wisniewski 74.   OLB Dontay Moch 92.   WR Edmond Gates 125.  FS Robert Sands 159.  OLB Greg Romeus 193.  RB Da'Rel Scott
    Posted by Faucetman[/QUOTE]


    romeus is our pass rushing demon?

    tyron smith makes it to 28?

    watt would  have to make it past 9, 10, 11, 16(whoever is left, watt or jordan could be eaten up here. but jacksonville needs a qb. i don think they think so though.

    others want ingram more it seems than bb?
     
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