2011 Patriots Draft Options ***THANKS TO ALL WHO CONTRIBUTED!***

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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]in case anyone was interested in my own lil NE specific fantasy board, here it is... You'll notice i have a handful of players playing different positions. I am always modifying it so if anyone know of any really negative things about a particular player on the list, let me know. DE JJ Watt (1) Cameron Jordan (1) Cameron Heyward (1-2) Muhammad Wilkerson (1-2) Phil Taylor (1-2) Lawrence Guy (3) OT Gabe Carimi (1) Anthony Castonzo (1) Derrick Sherrod (1-2) Orlando Franklin (2) Marcus Gilbert (3-4) Sub Inside Pass rusher Allen Baily (2-3) OG Danny Watkins (1-2) Clint Boling (2-3) Ben Ijalana (2) James Carpenter (3) John Moffit (3-4) Will Rackley (4) Stephen Schilling (4) Andrew Jackson (6-7) WR Torrey Smith (1-2) Leonard Hankerson (1-2) Edmund Gates (3) Greg Salas (4) Dane Sanzenbacher (5-6) Jeremy Kerley (5) Cecil Shorts (5-6) Jeff Maehl (6) OG/C Mike Pouncey (1-2) Stefen Wisniewski (2) All-around RB (mid round) Shane Vereen (3) Kendall Hunter (2-3) Jordan Todman (3) RB (Later round) Roy Helu (4) Derrick Locke (5) Alex Green (4-5) Owen Marecic (5) TE Virgil Green (4) OLB Justin Houston (1-2) Ryan Kerrigan (1-2) Jabaal Sheard (2) Brooks Reed (2) Sam Acho (2-3) Greg Romeus (4-5) ILB Mark Herzlich (4-5) Mason Foster (3-4) Sub Outside Pass rusher Martez Wilson (1-2) Dontay Moch (2-3) Chris Carter (3) CB Curtis Brown (2) Davon House (2) Buster Skrine (3-4) Chykie Brown (3-4) Cortez Allen (4-5) S Aaron Williams (2-3) Rahim Moore (2-3) Quinton Carter (3) Jaiquawn Jarrett (4-5) Shilo Keo (6) Mark LeGree (7-FA) QB Greg McElroy (5) Outside the box thinking Adrian Clayborn(slimmed down) as OLB It's Gonna Cost Ya Marcel Dareus (1) Von Miller (1) AJ Green (1) Julio Jones (1) Mark Ingram (1)
    Posted by Low-FB-IQ[/QUOTE]

    Low...that looks llike a solid list...1 question..why do you have Martez Wilson not listed as an ILB along with Herzlich?
    I think we could use him to sub rush, but given the kids tangibles he should be a 4 down player and versatile enough to use inside or out.
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]I'll argue against myself taking Miller, we have a Miller-esque player on the roster now. Gary Guyton 6-3, 245, 4.47.  I know he plays mostly in nickel sets but each year his sack production has improved.  He's started some games at OLB but before we got Spikes he played mostly inside.  Here's a snap shot of his stats. 2008 - 34 tackles, 25 solo, 0 sacks, 3 PDef 2009 - 85 tackles, 55 solo, 1.5 sacks, 4 PDef 2010 - 63 tackles, 44 solo, 3.0 sacks, 7 PDef, 2 INT, 1 TD 59T His tackle numbers were down 2010 but again that was due to Spikes playing on running downs.  But I love the direction the sack numbers and Pass Defended numbers are going.  I did a post, way back, that showed it usually takes 3-4 years for a rush OLB to start putting up big sack numbers. Let's not forget Vrabel played sparingly at Pittsburgh for 4 years before coming to NE in 2001.  His first 3 years in NE he did this. 2001 - 63 tackles, 40 solo, 7 PDef, 3.0 sacks, 2 INT 2002 - 82 tackles, 58 solo, 4 PDef, 4.5 sacks, 1 INT 2003 - 52 tackles, 37 solo, 2 PDef, 9.5 sacks, 2 INT His sack numbers then went 5.5, 4.5, 4.5, 12.5, 4.0 then off to KC where he went 2, 0.  For his 14 year career he has 57 sacks which is just 4 sacks a year. Vrabel's first 3 years were not all that unlike Guyton then Vrabel put up a big 9.5.  Maybe Guyton will break out this year.  
    Posted by Faucetman[/QUOTE]

    I thought about Guyton as well, but in response to all the chatter on Moch. Although we have Guyton and his stats show steady improvement, he's no Miller. There is a reason he was a UDFA and Miller is being discussed in the top 5. Not that I wouldn't like Gary to develop like that...I think he is solid, but the knock always on Guyton is how he plays the run, and can't set the edge. He doesn' seem to crave contact like Spikes, like Mayo, like a good LB should....Didn't we try Guyton out on the outside against Seattle and it did't work? ...I dont' know...I want to believe, but I don't see it..I hope tobe wrong.
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : Low...that looks llike a solid list...1 question..why do you have Martez Wilson not listed as an ILB along with Herzlich? I think we could use him to sub rush, but given the kids tangibles he should be a 4 down player and versatile enough to use inside or out.
    Posted by PatsLifer[/QUOTE]


    Well I was going to leave off Wilson all-together only because of where we would have to take him in relation to needs on the team. I still need to do more work on Wilson.

    The first video I watch on him was basically large chunks of a single game and I came away feeling the same way I did watching Akeen Ayers. Looks pretty cause he's moving and shaking but all the plays were non impactful plays, a lot of downfield plays,  and he looked clueless as far as instincts. SO much athleticism and speed is made up by LB's that just know what to do.

    Then someone on here posted a link to a highlight vid and it was very nicely done and showed him in a much better light. I have to weight that viewing experience  a bit lower though as it was after all a "highlight" vid.

    I also don't like that as an ILB he has generally a bunch more assisted tackles than solo tackles, Again to me meaning he is reacting and getting there late despite his superior athletic ability.

    Mayo generally had more solos than assisted, Herz does even though Herz plays outside, Brandon Spikes who's a dirt train compared to Martez. You can go through the list of different ILBs from draft history and see similar things. Not everyone of course but enough trend to make me question it. His total production for 3yrs playing (4th yr injured) was eh.

    There is no denying his burst of speed however and size so I decided to stick him there rather than leave him off.

    Well as I always say I may not be correct and probably that's the case but I always have a thoughtful reason to what I am thinking or saying.
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : I thought about Guyton as well, but in response to all the chatter on Moch. Although we have Guyton and his stats show steady improvement, he's no Miller. There is a reason he was a UDFA and Miller is being discussed in the top 5. Not that I wouldn't like Gary to develop like that...I think he is solid, but the knock always on Guyton is how he plays the run, and can't set the edge. He doesn' seem to crave contact like Spikes, like Mayo, like a good LB should....Didn't we try Guyton out on the outside against Seattle and it did't work? ...I dont' know...I want to believe, but I don't see it..I hope tobe wrong.
    Posted by PatsLifer[/QUOTE]


    Yes its already been proven by experimentation that teams can run right at Guyton and be successful when he is playing on the outside.

    That's not his forte'.
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : I think Miller will be a super star but I don't know about giving up that much for one player.  This is why, I really like Eric Moore now I'm not calling him Miller or think he's as talented but think Moore in a full season and solid DE play can give double digit sacks and is good against the run.  Fletcher also, he's got really good speed around that edge.  Second season maybe he improves, reacts more than he's thinking. I would be more incline to give up a 3rd rndr and 17 to move up to get Watt.  If he's what we all think he is, he would command that double team making easier for OLBs.  I think that would be better, that means also BB still has room to move some picks and get more picks in 2010 or future picks.  Then you can still get Sheard or Houston in mid 30s (after trading 28 or 33). I'm beginning to get over Reed, one I think he's gotten so much media a team is falling in love with the Matthews comparison and might reach for him.  I don't think he makes it to 28 so I'll be really happy with Sheard and still happy with Houston who might be the more NFL ready of the two but Sheard has a higher ceiling IMO.
    Posted by Pats7393[/QUOTE]
    Eric Moore is another guy that could become something.  He's got the size BB likes, 6-4, 268 but ran a 4.84 at his Combine.  He played in 4 games with us had 14 tackles, 9 solo with 1 PDef and 2 sacks.  Moore is signed through 2011 for $640K.

    TBC is signed through 2012 for $800K next year but would carry a $4MM cap hit if cut (assuming we go back to those rules).  Ninkovich is signed for the same money, $650K as Moore and will also be a F/A after 2011.  The point to all this is besides Guyton, we have no speed on the edges coming from the 2nd level.

    Moving up for Miller seems expensive but relative to what?  Moving up for Watt just using 74 some would say is also too expensive.  Okay, so we stay put take a Kerrigan/Smith or Houston and perhaps get no better production.  I try not to look at the Pats draft in isolation.  I look at it in terms of how much better we can improve in the off season against our competition. 

    With the lockout, there can be no trades.  Trading Mankins, trading Meriweather and these other ideas do nothing for 2011 because the lock out isn't likely to end before the draft unless the courts order it.  All we know right now is there will be a draft April 28-30.  We have picks 17, 28, 33, 60, 74, and 92 in the first three rounds.  The Jets have 30, 94 and the Dolphins have 15, 79. 

    We could get Miller at 5 and still have 33, 60, 74, and 92.

    The Jets perhaps counter with Phil Taylor and have 94.
    The Dolphins perhaps get a QB or RB and have 79

    So, who gets better in the draft?  the Pats, hands down.  After we each get our first pick, we get 3 more before the Dolphins pick again and 4 more before the Jets pick again.

    I'd probably prefer a smaller move up for Watt but with 8 DLs under contract BB may not be interested.  A bold move for Miller would be exciting to me and I think would be the missing piece to our whole Defense.
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    Mb, get to work.  You've been on here all day:))
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : I thought about Guyton as well, but in response to all the chatter on Moch. Although we have Guyton and his stats show steady improvement, he's no Miller. There is a reason he was a UDFA and Miller is being discussed in the top 5. Not that I wouldn't like Gary to develop like that...I think he is solid, but the knock always on Guyton is how he plays the run, and can't set the edge. He doesn' seem to crave contact like Spikes, like Mayo, like a good LB should....Didn't we try Guyton out on the outside against Seattle and it did't work? ...I dont' know...I want to believe, but I don't see it..I hope tobe wrong.
    Posted by PatsLifer[/QUOTE]
    No that is/was the knock on Guyton.  We got Spikes to solidify against the runs up the middle.  Guyton probably is better compared to Moch.  Miller is tough against the run, he can shed and he can force the play outside. 

    Again for me, we can afford one big move up.  It should be for either Watt or Miller, Quinn too if BB is comfortable with him.  If Miller gets to 7 which he does only if Gabbert gets to 5, we could get both Watt and Miller.

    17/33 get us to 7 for Miller
    28/60 gets us to maybe 16 if JAX doesn't mind a little less for Watt

    If we compare to MIA and NYJ we still pick again before either of them do with 2 studs in the barn to their 1. 

    At 74 and 92 we get a pair OL types then use the rest for WR and RB talent.

    Obviously we aren't going to do this, I'm just saying we could.  But 17/74 for Watt is such a no brainer move if MIN wants a QB and knows they can drop the 5 spots and still get their guy. 

     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    NO compensatory picks awarded to the Patriots!
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    Adrian Clayborn and Kenrick Eillis work out for the Pats

    Curtis Brown has an upcoming workout OR visit scheduled with the Pats

    Riki STanzi also working out for Pats
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : I don't think Reed is an elite pass rusher today.  Other than Miller and perhaps Quinn, you aren't likely to get a rookie who will come in year one and get you 10 sacks.  There have only been a couple such players who've done it the past 10 years.  It takes, 2, 3 and sometimes 4 years for a 34 OLB to start putting up decent sack numbers.  Ninkovich starting his second season is likely to be more productive this year than a rookie Reed, Kerrigan, Acho or the other mid 1st to later DE conversion types.  So for me, the best way to get more pressure is to generate it up front with Watt and to get Bodden back there to buy more time.  Alternatively we should give up 17/28 and go up to 5 to get Miller. 
    Posted by Faucetman[/QUOTE]


    agree starts at de. you forgot about aldon smith. quinn, miller or smith. so get one if you can with watt.
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]That 33rd pick is looking more and more like a Big Gold Bar. I can see the Pats getting into the Luck sweepstakes for next year.
    Posted by bobbysu[/QUOTE]

    was offering that for luck/carolina pick after the playoff loss
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]Wilkerson and Houston.  Not happy guys.  Houston is a work out freak with an inconsistent motor.  He flashes then takes plays off.  He could be another Gholston.  Wilkerson scares me at 33, at 17 the bust factor is huge.  Wilkerson has an average motor, came from a weak program and was productive against weak opposition.  He showed up at his Pro Day out of shape and was average and got tired.  He had 10 sacks this past season.  Who did he get them against? 2 - Central Michigan (3-9) these guys lost to Temple, Northwestern, Ball State, Virginia Tech, Miami (OH), Northern Illinois, Bowling Green, Navy, Toledo.  But they beat Powerhouse Hampton, Eastern Michigan and Western Michigan. 1 - Army (7-6) these guys lost to Hawaii, Temple, Rutgers, Air Force, Notre Dame.  But they beat Eastern Michigan, North Texas, Duke (I didn't know they played football there), Tulane (ditto), get this VMI, that's Virginia Military Institute, Kent State and Southern Methodist in the Bell Helicopter Armed Forces Bowl. 3 - Buffalo (2-10) these guys lost to Baylor, UCF, UCONN, Northern Illinois, Temple, Miami (OH), Ohio, Ball State, Eastern Michigan and Akron.  The only teams they beat were Rhode Island and a nail biter 28-26 over Bowling Green 3 - Kent State (5-7) these guys lost to BC, Penn State, Miami (OH), Toledo, Temple, Army, Western Michigan but they beat Powerhouse Murray State, Akron, Bowling Green, Ball State and Ohio. 1 - Miami (Ohio) (10-4) these guys lost to Florida, Missouri, Cincinnati, Ohio and they beat Eastern Michigan, Colorado State, Kent State, Central Michigan, Buffalo, Bowling Green, Akron, Temple, and Northern Illinois.  Oh wait, these guys won the GoDaddy.com Bowl over Middle Tennessee. So of the 5 teams were Wilkerson registered a sack, how many made the BCS or USA Today top 25??  NONE!!!  There could be a top 100 and maybe Miami (OH) cracks the list.  In fact only 2 of the 5 teams had a winning record, including Army barely at 7-6 because they played the girl scouts twice.  Look closer guys, those two teams with winning records, he got 1 sack each.  The other 3 teams where he got 8 of his 10 sacks were a combined 10-26. Now let's look at the teams were Wilkerson did not register a sack. Villanova (9-5) with wins against Lehigh, Towson, Pennsylvania, Maine, James Madison, Richmond, Delaware, Stephen F. Austin and Appalachian State.  Come on, these are a bunch of Div IAA schools. UCONN (8-5) good team Penn State (7-6) good team Northern Illinois (11-3) they play the same dogs that Temple plays Bowling Green (2-10) Akron (1-11) Okay, I've seen enough.  Wilkerson looks great on the hoof, but if he can't put up 2-3 sacks a game against Akron, Bowling Green and Northern Illinois, what is he going to do against the OL of the Jets, Ravens, Steelers, Chargers and Colts? Now, let's look at JJ Watt's 7 sacks 1 - Michigan State (11-2) finished 14th in the BCS 1 - Minnesota (3-9) 2 - Ohio State (12-1) finished 5th in the BCS 1 - Iowa (8-5) 1 - Purdue (4-8) Level of competition is so important when judging DL and OL.  It isn't like a WR or RB where you can see the speed, the cuts, the hands, the routes, the instincts.   OL and DL is trench warfare.  How does the trench fighter do against his man?  Wilkerson was an armed gladiator with shields, clubs and swords going against a bunch of cub scouts with Swiss Army knives.    I'm not taking Wilkerson until 60, if then.  At 17, no freakin way.  I'd rather take Pouncey.  There is a reason why this kid went to Temple.  To show up at your Pro Day out of shape and getting tired means he thinks he already punched his ticket to the first round.  Buyer beware on this Wilkerson kid.  If he ends up being special, I'll eat my words but I don't want him.  If JJ Watt is on the board at 15, we need to offer Miami 92 and get it done.  PERIOD!!!  Same thing if he's there at 12, give MIN their 74 back and turn in the card.  Then I can relax, enjoy the draft and not worry that I'm going to hear Wilkerson's name called with us on the clock.
    Posted by Faucetman[/QUOTE]

    you and i faucet have been the only ones not liking wilk. here and the analysts have him rising and rising.
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : I haven't made my mind up yet on this Wilkerson kid Mb, lol.  Mayock likes him but Mayock should know better.  Level of Competition alone dictates a 1 round drop.  At 17 I'm all about getting a safe pick.  I want the player to be in a position of need such as OLB, DE, or OL.  But it has to be a safe pick.  If Watt makes it to 17, we run up there but I would wait to see if he's there at 12.  DAL, WAS and HOU are all threats to take him.  All are 34 teams.  WAS has to get rid of Haynesworth and Watt would make a ton of sense.  One of those teams is taking Prince Amukamara.  WAS could take Jones or Green so HOU is my biggest worry at 11 to take Watt because Wade Phillips is switching to a 34 and Watt fits the bill.  Other than MIA who is set at DE teams between 12-16 are all 43 teams where A. Smith, Kerrigan and even Jordan make better sense than Watt. If BB stays put and Watt is gone I'm taking best OT or Pouncey.  I just don't see any other options.  I'll look at Kerrigan hard but I don't think BB would take a conversion type this high.  I will also look at Jordan but I don't think he's a good fit at 34 DE yet.  He could grow into it but he'd be another nickel DL rush end.  This is why with all the picks we have, we need to package one of them, 60, 74, or 94 and just go up and get Watt or Jones or someone who can be an impact player.  I'd even go 28/17 to land Miller.  If you consider we could be picking at 1-5, 2-1, 2-28, 3-10 and 3-28 and we're a freakin 14-2 team, why the heck not?!?!?!   We could be basically picking as a 2-14 team and a 14-2 team if you look at where our picks are.   The only teams that come close are: DEN 1-2, 2-4, 2-14, 3-3 and SD 1-18, 2-18, 2-29, 3-18, 3-25.  We have 1 more pick than Denver in this range and the same picks as SD but ours are better at each spot except the last one. I want one headliner, Watt or Miller.  With 28 or 33 we move back to get a pair of 2nds and start rebuilding the OL. 
    Posted by Faucetman[/QUOTE]


    re watt
     "DAL, WAS and HOU are all threats to take him. "

    i just said this last night in respose to the mock
    which is why 9 is the safest trade if u can get it for watt. unless u know what eams will do.



     "This is why with all the picks we have, we need to package one of them, 60, 74, or 94 and just go up and get Watt or Jones or someone who can be an impact player.  "

    I'd even go 28/17 to land Miller.  If you consider we could be picking at 1-5, 2-1, 2-28, 3-10 and 3-28 and we're a freakin 14-2 team, why the heck not?!?!?! "


    again thanks for making my point! (our point)



     "We could be basically picking as a 2-14 team and a 14-2 team if you look at where our picks are.  The only teams that come close are: DEN 1-2, 2-4, 2-14, 3-3 and SD 1-18, 2-18, 2-29, 3-18, 3-25.  We have 1 more pick than Denver in this range and the same picks as SD but ours are better at each spot except the last one."



    peace
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]Hey guys unbelievable thread!  Thank so much for all the hard work. This question may have been asked/answered somewhere in here but let me ask again:  is there no trading into NEXT YEAR'S draft picks this year?!  This is what Kiper/McShay were saying and that's the first I heard it.  That's a big deal for us if its true.  I think it makes trading UP far more likely for BB. Also 7393:  love the pats getting BOTH Watt AND Cam Jordan.  That would be sick. Go pats!
    Posted by LAPats[/QUOTE]
    Not sure if this has been addressed, but not true.  You can trade into 2012 but there is risk.  If the NFL loses it's Anti Trust exemption in its battle with the union, the draft could be declared illegal meaning every college player would be a free agent and can sign with whomever they want for whatever money they want.  This exemption was granted by Congress so it isn't anything that can happen soon or is likely to happen because it will destroy football as we know it. 

    It is true that no player can be traded for draft picks this year unless the court rules against the NFL and overturns the lock out.  In this case free agency would start and likely the rules of 2010 would repeat but much is guess work right now.
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : Not about been a fattie its about taking on double teams (two 300+ lb men every play), lighter guys usually don't hold up to that and are moved easily.  The worst is when a guy then doesn't command a double because that frees up an OL to take on the LBs. Now for Jordan, I've read where he's an extremely strong kid.  So could be that he can hold ground because of pure strength.  Pass rush although can be generated from the 34DE spot, that's the role of the OLBs.  They are the sack getters, the DEs need to command that double so the LBs are free to run to the QB. 
    Posted by Pats7393[/QUOTE]


    Thank you for stating to obvious that OLB's generate most of the sacks in a 3-4 defense. Duh.

    My point is that 300lbs DE's don't guarantee a successful pass rush, or a successful rush by the OLB's for that matter. Our defensive ends stink at pass rushing, as do our OLB's (who also need upgrading).

    Here are the DL's who recorded at least 5.0 sacks in 2010 from teams that run a base 3-4 defense...

    SF    Justin Smith       6-4 275    8.5 sacks
    SF    Travis Laboy       6-3 260    5.0
    GB    Cullen Jenkins    6-2 303    7.0
    GB    BJ Raji              6-2 337     6.5
    BAL  Haloti Ngata       6-4 340     5.5
    ARI   Calais Campbell 6-8 282    6.0
    ARI   Darnell Dockett  6-4 285    5.0
    KC    Wallace Gilberry 6-3 267    7.0
    BUF   Kyle Williams    6-1 306    5.5
    SD Antonio Garay       6-3 303    6.0

    My point is that to discount a Jordan or a Watt simply because they weigh a biscuit less than 300 lbs makes zero logical sense. Our 300+ "fatties" can't get 'er done, nor can our existing crop of OLB's. I'm not going to discount someone simply because they weigh 10 lbs less than you'd like them to. The above data suggests otherwise.


     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : Thank you for stating to obvious that OLB's generate most of the sacks in a 3-4 defense. Duh. My point is that 300lbs DE's don't guarantee a successful pass rush, or a successful rush by the OLB's for that matter. Our defensive ends stink at pass rushing, as do our OLB's (who also need upgrading). Here are the DL's who recorded at least 5.0 sacks in 2010 from teams that run a base 3-4 defense... SF    Justin Smith       6-4 275    8.5 sacks SF    Travis Laboy       6-3 260    5.0 GB    Cullen Jenkins    6-2 303    7.0 GB    BJ Raji              6-2 337     6.5 BAL  Haloti Ngata       6-4 340     5.5 ARI   Calais Campbell 6-8 282    6.0 ARI   Darnell Dockett  6-4 285    5.0 KC    Wallace Gilberry 6-3 267    7.0 BUF   Kyle Williams    6-1 306    5.5 SD Antonio Garay       6-3 303    6.0 My point is that to discount a Jordan or a Watt simply because they weigh a biscuit less than 300 lbs makes zero logical sense. Our 300+ "fatties" can't get 'er done, nor can our existing crop of OLB's. I'm not going to discount someone simply because they weigh 10 lbs less than you'd like them to. The above data suggests otherwise.
    Posted by sml1210[/QUOTE]

    Who's discounting them?  It is been stated BB has a history of not drafting guys under 300 in the 1st round.  If you read and are a regular here would notice plenty of us would like to go after Watt and Jordan second.

    I'll leave it at that before I write something that we stay away from on this thread so instead will just say ur input is always welcomed. 
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Faucetman. Show Faucetman's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : you and i faucet have been the only ones not liking wilk. here and the analysts have him rising and rising.
    Posted by brdbreu[/QUOTE]
    I like Mike Mayock.  I probably respect him more than all the other draft experts.  Kiper is a joke, I don't even listen to him and I don't feel much more for McShay.  But Mayock by his own admission only follows seniors until underclassmen declare.  It takes him weeks if not right up to the draft to do his homework on juniors and RS sophomores.  The only time I ever hear Mayock talking about Wilkerson he references the Penn State game.  Yes, Wilkerson had a great game against Penn State, I'm not checking but I think he had 9 tackles, no sacks. 

    Penn State was easily the best team Temple faced so everyone was up for that game.  But, stopping the run isn't our problem.  We ranked 11th or 12th last year.  We need a 3 front line to be able to push the pocket and command double teams.  I'll be honest, I never saw Wilkerson play.  As a junior he wasn't at any of the all star games.  I saw him at the Combine and on the hoof, he looks the part but I'm a stats guy and the sheet on Wilkerson isn't great.  8 of 10 sacks coming against absolute dogs.  He's a supposed 1st round pick.  How many OL types that he got sacks against are even going to be drafted?  ZERO!!!

    Yes he faced Villinova and Penn State so likely went up against Wisniewski and Ijalana at some point during the game but how many sacks did he have in those games?  ZERO, nada. none.

    I'm no draft expert but I have been following the Patriots since 1975 and used to actually go to the draft from 81-87.  My brother and I would drive down from Maine and camp outside the Marriott Marquis.  We were all decked out in Pats gear and were always being interview by EPSN after every Patriot's pick.  We were the one to blame for the Patriots selecting Mike Ruth; not our finest moment.  The Pats were on the clock and at my brother's urging, we both kept chanting "Ruth, Ruth, Ruth" and the guys manning the phones for the Pats kept looking back at us.  ESPN even showed us before and after the pick.  I think we helped influence them but God, I hope not.

    Okay, I'm rambling on again.  My point is, I'm just a big Pat's fan and I love the draft.  I've been right about a lot of players, good and bad and I've been wrong about some players.  Wilkerson scares me.  He could be great and if he went up against SEC competition and put up 10 sacks I'd be on board with him. 

    I'm with you buddy, no Wilk and let's go get Watt.  I'm not all in but in enough to say 17/74 to 12 if he's there.  I'd do this move for Jones too.  Fairley worries me but I watched him all year long and this year, he was a beast.  If he's there at 12 huge risk/reward pick. 
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from seattlepat70. Show seattlepat70's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : Thank you for stating to obvious that OLB's generate most of the sacks in a 3-4 defense. Duh. My point is that 300lbs DE's don't guarantee a successful pass rush, or a successful rush by the OLB's for that matter. Our defensive ends stink at pass rushing, as do our OLB's (who also need upgrading). Here are the DL's who recorded at least 5.0 sacks in 2010 from teams that run a base 3-4 defense... SF    Justin Smith       6-4 275    8.5 sacks SF    Travis Laboy       6-3 260    5.0 GB    Cullen Jenkins    6-2 303    7.0 GB    BJ Raji              6-2 337     6.5 BAL  Haloti Ngata       6-4 340     5.5 ARI   Calais Campbell 6-8 282    6.0 ARI   Darnell Dockett  6-4 285    5.0 KC    Wallace Gilberry 6-3 267    7.0 BUF   Kyle Williams    6-1 306    5.5 SD Antonio Garay       6-3 303    6.0 My point is that to discount a Jordan or a Watt simply because they weigh a biscuit less than 300 lbs makes zero logical sense. Our 300+ "fatties" can't get 'er done, nor can our existing crop of OLB's. I'm not going to discount someone simply because they weigh 10 lbs less than you'd like them to. The above data suggests otherwise.
    Posted by sml1210[/QUOTE]


    Your examples are not exactly compelling argument for the sub 300 DEs. The SF DEs are playing against bad OLs and QBs in the worst div of the NFL. The same applies to the ARI DEs. They're in the same div. The only exception there the KC DE, which we don't know if he's a one-year wonder.

    Most importantly, I will take Ngata or Raji anytime over the sub 300 guys, even if they score fewer sacks.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Low-FB-IQ. Show Low-FB-IQ's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : Thank you for stating to obvious that OLB's generate most of the sacks in a 3-4 defense. Duh. My point is that 300lbs DE's don't guarantee a successful pass rush, or a successful rush by the OLB's for that matter. Our defensive ends stink at pass rushing, as do our OLB's (who also need upgrading). Here are the DL's who recorded at least 5.0 sacks in 2010 from teams that run a base 3-4 defense... SF    Justin Smith       6-4 275    8.5 sacks SF    Travis Laboy       6-3 260    5.0 GB    Cullen Jenkins    6-2 303    7.0 GB    BJ Raji              6-2 337     6.5 BAL  Haloti Ngata       6-4 340     5.5 ARI   Calais Campbell 6-8 282    6.0 ARI   Darnell Dockett  6-4 285    5.0 KC    Wallace Gilberry 6-3 267    7.0 BUF   Kyle Williams    6-1 306    5.5 SD Antonio Garay       6-3 303    6.0 My point is that to discount a Jordan or a Watt simply because they weigh a biscuit less than 300 lbs makes zero logical sense. Our 300+ "fatties" can't get 'er done, nor can our existing crop of OLB's. I'm not going to discount someone simply because they weigh 10 lbs less than you'd like them to. The above data suggests otherwise.
    Posted by sml1210[/QUOTE]


    context to your stats please.

    The two Arizona players might be under 300 but they were also awful against the run.

    The SF ones that are under 300 did better against the run but the d was awful against the pass so not sure how much people bothered trying to run on them when they could pass on them all day long. If you can pass on them all day long that gives your pass rushers more chances to get a sack.

    My comments are overly simplistic but the point is what you posted means nothing either in supporting or not supporting your argument.

    You need to know in what situation those sacks happened and what types of sacks they were, were they coverage sacks, was it a stunt or blitzing, etc.

    Stats ALWAYS need context.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Low-FB-IQ. Show Low-FB-IQ's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    Here is the results of an interesting live podcast 1st round mock draft done in round robin style by three draftnik website owners this evening.

    You can see the QB's really mess things up. Also apparently there is still quite a bit of concern by some of Quinn's brain tumor and not so much by other, according to them.

    They also though that Bowers and Heywards stock was floundering around a bit right now until they can work out for teams. Then they will either move up or down obviously.

    1  marcel dareus
    2  von miller
    3  cam newton
    4  nick fairly
    5  patrick peterson
    6  julio jones
    7  jake locker
    8  blaine gabbert
    9  jj watt
    10 aj green
    11 prince amukamara
    12 daquan bowers
    13 tyron smith
    14 aldon smith
    15 mike pouncey
    16 ryan mallet
    17 cameron jordan
    18 cameron heyward
    19 anthony costanzo
    20 robert quinn
    21 ryan kerrigan
    22 gabe carimi
    23 jimmy smith
    24 justin houston
    25 nate solder
    26 mark ingram
    27 leonard hankerson
    28 danny watkins
    29 corey liuget
    30 brooks reed
    31 derrick sherrod
    32 adrian clayborn

    The end of the podcast was the best when one guy was whining about that Pats needing blue chippers and should package a bunch of picks etc and not trade down in this draft even once.

    Then the other two guys basically torched him lol
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : I like Mike Mayock.  I probably respect him more than all the other draft experts.  Kiper is a joke, I don't even listen to him and I don't feel much more for McShay.  But Mayock by his own admission only follows seniors until underclassmen declare.  It takes him weeks if not right up to the draft to do his homework on juniors and RS sophomores.  The only time I ever hear Mayock talking about Wilkerson he references the Penn State game.  Yes, Wilkerson had a great game against Penn State, I'm not checking but I think he had 9 tackles, no sacks.  Penn State was easily the best team Temple faced so everyone was up for that game.  But, stopping the run isn't our problem.  We ranked 11th or 12th last year.  We need a 3 front line to be able to push the pocket and command double teams.  I'll be honest, I never saw Wilkerson play.  As a junior he wasn't at any of the all star games.  I saw him at the Combine and on the hoof, he looks the part but I'm a stats guy and the sheet on Wilkerson isn't great.  8 of 10 sacks coming against absolute dogs.  He's a supposed 1st round pick.  How many OL types that he got sacks against are even going to be drafted?  ZERO!!! Yes he faced Villinova and Penn State so likely went up against Wisniewski and Ijalana at some point during the game but how many sacks did he have in those games?  ZERO, nada. none. I'm no draft expert but I have been following the Patriots since 1975 and used to actually go to the draft from 81-87.  My brother and I would drive down from Maine and camp outside the Marriott Marquis.  We were all decked out in Pats gear and were always being interview by EPSN after every Patriot's pick.  We were the one to blame for the Patriots selecting Mike Ruth; not our finest moment.  The Pats were on the clock and at my brother's urging, we both kept chanting "Ruth, Ruth, Ruth" and the guys manning the phones for the Pats kept looking back at us.  ESPN even showed us before and after the pick.  I think we helped influence them but God, I hope not. Okay, I'm rambling on again.  My point is, I'm just a big Pat's fan and I love the draft.  I've been right about a lot of players, good and bad and I've been wrong about some players.  Wilkerson scares me.  He could be great and if he went up against SEC competition and put up 10 sacks I'd be on board with him.  I'm with you buddy, no Wilk and let's go get Watt.  I'm not all in but in enough to say 17/74 to 12 if he's there.  I'd do this move for Jones too.  Fairley worries me but I watched him all year long and this year, he was a beast.  If he's there at 12 huge risk/reward pick. 
    Posted by Faucetman[/QUOTE]

    I feel your passion man...I hope that didn't come across wrong!..

    Anyhow, I'm with you. It's going to take a really bold move up for Miller (5), a bold move up for Watt (9), and probably a liveable move up for Quinn (11/12). Sitting at 17 and even trading up a spot or two isn't going to get us much. The 2 teams in front of us are not threatening, unless San Diego tries to leap frog. So, you may want to go 2 spots for Jordan if he is the guy.

    If we want Watt, we have to worry starting at 9 with Dallas, and continuing with 10 (Washington) and 11 (Houston)...All 3-4 teams, all in need of a DE. I would argue however that Houston is probably more in need of a Phil Taylor (NT), than a guy like Watt, but Watt would still serve a valuable purpose especially with the pillsberry doughboy taking over the D. 

    Therefore, if Watt is our guy, I think we need to insure he doesn't go to Dallas starting at 9 and going through Houston at 11. I think 12 is too late. If we want him, we need to do 17/60/124 (even then we would be a bit short, but Dallas might take it.)

    On the other hand, if Jordan is our guy, I am 75/25 he makes it to 17. Jacksonville could be a threat, but I think they go Kerrigan..what about 9-11 with all those 3-4 teams packed in there?....I don' think he goes that early. I think our little community mock proved that (thanks Pats7393 for starting).

    My brain is racked over trying to figure out what BB might do. I have a ton of respect for the guy and can imagine the preparation he and his team go through to get to this point.

    Before I post my mock, or what I think could happen, can anyone give me an objective opinion on Watt vs. Jordan in our defense? Which guy do you believe has the most value/versatility to us, and please consider potential draft position as well...forthis one, lets assume Watt at 9 and Jordan t 17.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrustBill. Show TrustBill's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]Adrian Clayborn and Kenrick Eillis work out for the Pats Curtis Brown has an upcoming workout OR visit scheduled with the Pats Riki STanzi also working out for Pats
    Posted by Low-FB-IQ[/QUOTE]

    YES!

    I am pulling for Clayborn as a creative solution to our need for pass-rush from the DE/OLB position.  He is an oddball, too lighter as a 3-4 DE yet too heavy for OLB.  However, he is surprisingly strong. In the Michigan game, he knocked the LT flat on his back.  His quickness is better than most OLB.  In one highlight (maybe against Arizona), he chased down a RB from one side of LOS to the other; and tackled the RB behind the LOS. 
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : YES! I am pulling for Clayborn as a creative solution to our need for pass-rush from the DE/OLB position.  He is an oddball, too lighter as a 3-4 DE yet too heavy for OLB.  However, he is surprisingly strong. In the Michigan game, he knocked the LT flat on his back.  His quickness is better than most OLB.  In one highlight (maybe against Arizona), he chased down a RB from one side of LOS to the other; and tackled the RB behind the LOS. 
    Posted by TrustBill[/QUOTE]

    he woud be an interesting prospect at OLB, or some type of weird frankenstein BB creation.But, couldn't he also play4-3 DE?...he seems to be ideal for a 4 man front...I know that doesn't serve us per se, but maybe it does....Anyhow, I'm intrigued with Clayborn, just trying to figure out where we would stick him. Do you think he makes it to 28?
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Low-FB-IQ. Show Low-FB-IQ's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : I don't see Miller going too much higher than say 250 which should be a good playing weight for him.  No doubt the kids upside and potential to impact, I'm just not sure that BB is going to give up 2 or 3 high round picks (2 1st's and maybe a 2nd or 3rd) to go up and get him, though if they identify him as a sure impact player I wouldn't mind being wrong.  The difference with Colvin was, he was a proven commodity at that weight, BB seems to drop his preferred measurables a bit if he knows a kid can play. Adding some LB's is possible, just not sure that Cushing and Matthews are guys that you'd want to include in your argument, ha. I'd love to see what some sort of scientific hair follicle testing would tell us about Both, if you know what I mean.
    Posted by mbeaulieu07[/QUOTE]

    I am with you on that. People have been talking about going up to 5 or 7 and it would not even surprise me if he did not last that long.

    The one thing i like about this draft is its really all over the place. I am guessing because of no FA. Its more interesting in some ways.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from brdbreu. Show brdbreu's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : No that is/was the knock on Guyton.  We got Spikes to solidify against the runs up the middle.  Guyton probably is better compared to Moch.  Miller is tough against the run, he can shed and he can force the play outside.  Again for me, we can afford one big move up.  It should be for either Watt or Miller, Quinn too if BB is comfortable with him.  If Miller gets to 7 which he does only if Gabbert gets to 5, we could get both Watt and Miller. 17/33 get us to 7 for Miller 28/60 gets us to maybe 16 if JAX doesn't mind a little less for Watt If we compare to MIA and NYJ we still pick again before either of them do with 2 studs in the barn to their 1.  At 74 and 92 we get a pair OL types then use the rest for WR and RB talent. Obviously we aren't going to do this, I'm just saying we could.  But 17/74 for Watt is such a no brainer move if MIN wants a QB and knows they can drop the 5 spots and still get their guy. 
    Posted by Faucetman[/QUOTE]

    hey faucet ther is no downside to going for miller or  quinn and watt.and then getting the offensive line. it is our need an dwed be filling it, making us better for th enext 4 years. we've got enough safe slow linebackers and mediocre  d lineman.

    there are adavantages to all strategies. ours, bb's. this year however, you cannot argue against having 2 studs where we are deficient. it doesnt matter if you had only 2 picks(if they were high enough); ok 3, we do need at least one sturdy o lineman (even if we sign light and mankins)

    re the "conservative" strategy you suggest of taking only watt and at 12. how does this make sense if you and i have both said "DAL, WAS and HOU" could take watt. if thats the case, you trade to 9 or 8 (again unless you know for sure who is gonna select what player.  if bill does, fine. if not i dont wait till 12.

    do you think dallas goes past their o line need and defensive back need and risks bpa for watt? and i wish we knew how high they had him rated.
     

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