2011 Patriots Draft Options ***THANKS TO ALL WHO CONTRIBUTED!***

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from brdbreu. Show brdbreu's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]Pats could use lots...on offense downfield WR (Tate doesn't cut it).  RB with speed and power...maybe not avasilable this year Woodie and BJGE not enough. Tackle and Guard (Light and Mankins probably on way out...OT a problem in this draft...should try to keep Mankins a real stud.  On defense...a pass rusher ...true star  maybe not available at 17.  What they don't need is more lower picks upper first round true talent.  Loosing Mankins would be a sin and trading down and missing a player like Matthews was inexcuseable.  Sure McCortney is great but how many failures...2nd and 3rd round draft choices were wasted after dumping all pro Samuels?  BB brags that he has the best W/L record in the last 10 years but the Lombardi trophies are in the past.  Playmakers win post season games not trade downs.  It hasn't worked in 7 years. Why should it work now?  Solution...take both seconds and bundle them with both firsts and end up with 2 top number first 10 or 12 choices.
    Posted by creiner812[/QUOTE]


    where ya been creiner?
    i like it!

    "Playmakers win post season games not trade downs."
    succint, truthful;, effective!


      "It hasn't worked in 7 years. Why should it work now?  Solution...take both seconds and bundle them with both firsts and end up with 2 top number first 10 or 12 choices."


    radical, doable. 2 studs that will get us back to the promised land.
    faucet has some approaches keeping some ammo to get the o lineman we need  and still gettting 2 top 10  or so guys.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Low-FB-IQ. Show Low-FB-IQ's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    Made a few minor tweaks/fixes...

    DE
    Cameron Jordan (1)
    Muhammad Wilkerson (1-2)
    Cameron Heyward (1-2)
    Jarvis Jenkins (2-3)
    Kenrick Ellis (2-3)
    Lawrence Guy (3)
    Terrell McClain (4-5)
    Ricky Lumpkin (7-UDFA)


    OT
    Gabe Carimi (1)
    Anthony Castonzo (1)
    Derrick Sherrod (1-2)
    Orlando Franklin (2)
    Marcus Gilbert (3-4)
    Jah Reid (5-6)


    Sub Inside Pass rusher
    Allen Baily (2-3)


    OG
    Danny Watkins (1-2)
    Clint Boling (2-3)
    Ben Ijalana (2)
    James Carpenter (3)
    John Moffit (3-4)
    Will Rackley (4)
    Stephen Schilling (4)
    Andrew Jackson (6-7)


    WR
    Torrey Smith (1-2)
    Randall Cobb (2)
    Leonard Hankerson (2-3)
    Edmund Gates (3)
    Greg Salas (4)
    Dane Sanzenbacher (5-6)
    Jeremy Kerley (5)
    Cecil Shorts (5-6)
    Jeff Maehl (6)


    OG/C
    Mike Pouncey (1-2)
    Stefen Wisniewski (2)
    Rodney Hudson (2-3)
    Tim Barnes (4)



    All-around RB (mid round)
    Shane Vereen (3)
    Kendall Hunter (2-3)
    Jordan Todman (3)


    RB (Later round)
    Roy Helu (4-5)
    Derrick Locke (5)
    Alex Green (6)
    Owen Marecic (5-6)


    TE
    Virgil Green (4-5)
    Andre Smith (5)
    Julius Thomas (5)



    OLB
    Justin Houston (1-2)
    Ryan Kerrigan (1-2)
    Jabaal Sheard (2)
    Brooks Reed (2)
    Ricky Elmore (4)
    Greg Romeus (4-5)


    ILB
    Mark Herzlich (4-5)
    Mason Foster (3-4)
    Jeff Tarpinian


    Sub Outside Pass rusher
    Martez Wilson (1-2)
    Dontay Moch (3)
    Chris Carter (3)


    CB
    Curtis Brown (2)
    Davon House (2-3)
    Brandon Hogan (4)
    Buster Skrine (3-4)
    Cortez Allen (4-5)
    Chykie Brown (4)


    S
    Aaron Williams (2-3)
    Quinton Carter (3)
    Joe Lefeged (4-5)
    Jaiquawn Jarrett (4-5)
    Shilo Keo (6)
    Mark LeGree (7-FA)


    QB
    Greg McElroy (5)
    Scott Tolzien (6)


    Outside the box thinking
    Adrian Clayborn(slimmed down) as OLB (1)
    Allen Bailey(slimmed down) as OLB (2)
    Cameron Jordan(slimmed down) as OLB (1)
    Christian Ballard(slimmed down) as OLB (2)



    It's Gonna Cost Ya
    Marcel Dareus (1)
    Von Miller (1)
    AJ Green (1)
    Julio Jones (1)
    JJ Watt (1)
    Mark Ingram (1)
    Aldon Smith (1)
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from brdbreu. Show brdbreu's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]Before we give up on the Watt idea I just realized two things. WAS doesn't have a third round pick and they already stated they want to trade down for more picks.  They have a ton of needs; huge need at QB, WR, OT, OG, C, DE, ILB, FS, CB and even RB with the release of Portis.  Maybe, just maybe Dallas goes with Amukamara or a tackle.  If Gabbert and Newton are gone, WAS doesn't need to be taking Julio Jones.  You only take a WR in the top 10 when all other needs are met.  At 17 they could get Pouncey or pretty much the tackle of their choice.  I bet ya they would drop back for just our pick 60.  This gets us ahead of HOU for Watt.  They can perhaps get a Mallett, Ponder, Locker or Dalton at 41 then address an additional need at 60.  Point wise we're giving up 1250 for 1300 so this is good value for Bill. If that fails, I say trade down.  If TB wants to move up for Ingram because the Giants could be targeting him, we could switch places in the 2nd round, 60 for 52.  We could get Carimi at 20.
    Posted by Faucetman[/QUOTE]


    so you are fine with leaving it up to dallas where their need is o line why i think they would trade down, if amukamara is not there. if he is, they take him. wild card is if teveryone makes watt appear great and jj 's eyes light up..

    re "if that fails", we have severl options to trrade up for watt as you have poiinted out (as well as i have) today. '


    thats a lot of optins ot fail.
    if they all fail, we should get a domintaing olb high(ie quinn 1st, smith 2nd, kerrigan 3rd) and get whoever we can at de jordan, wilkerson, etc who will be the next best possiblity for qb pressurign de.


    there are tons of o line possibilities in the draft after we have these 2 assured.

    i'm not opposed to a  carimi (etc)pick in between the olb and de pick as long as we come away with pass pressurers. i dont want to go o line 1st. (we can trade up twice  or even 3 x if need be).

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from brdbreu. Show brdbreu's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]Made a few minor tweaks/fixes... DE JJ Watt (1) Cameron Jordan (1) Muhammad Wilkerson (1-2) Cameron Heyward (1-2) Jarvis Jenkins (2-3) Kenrick Ellis (2-3) Lawrence Guy (3) Terrell McClain (4-5) Ricky Lumpkin (7-UDFA) OT Gabe Carimi (1) Anthony Castonzo (1) Derrick Sherrod (1-2) Orlando Franklin (2) Marcus Gilbert (3-4) Jah Reid (5-6) Sub Inside Pass rusher Allen Baily (2-3) OG Danny Watkins (1-2) Clint Boling (2-3) Ben Ijalana (2) James Carpenter (3) John Moffit (3-4) Will Rackley (4) Stephen Schilling (4) Andrew Jackson (6-7) WR Torrey Smith (1-2) Randall Cobb (2) Leonard Hankerson (2-3) Edmund Gates (3) Greg Salas (4) Dane Sanzenbacher (5-6) Jeremy Kerley (5) Cecil Shorts (5-6) Jeff Maehl (6) OG/C Mike Pouncey (1-2) Stefen Wisniewski (2) Rodney Hudson (2-3) Tim Barnes (4) All-around RB (mid round) Shane Vereen (3) Kendall Hunter (2-3) Jordan Todman (3) RB (Later round) Roy Helu (4-5) Derrick Locke (5) Alex Green (6) Owen Marecic (5-6) TE Virgil Green (4-5) Andre Smith (5) Julius Thomas (5) OLB Justin Houston (1-2) Ryan Kerrigan (1-2) Jabaal Sheard (2) Brooks Reed (2) Ricky Elmore (4) Greg Romeus (4-5) ILB Mark Herzlich (4-5) Mason Foster (3-4) Jeff Tarpinian Sub Outside Pass rusher Martez Wilson (1-2) Dontay Moch (3) Chris Carter (3) CB Curtis Brown (2) Davon House (2-3) Brandon Hogan (4) Buster Skrine (3-4) Cortez Allen (4-5) Chykie Brown (4) S Aaron Williams (2-3) Quinton Carter (3) Joe Lefeged (4-5) Jaiquawn Jarrett (4-5) Shilo Keo (6) Mark LeGree (7-FA) QB Greg McElroy (5) Scott Tolzien (6) Outside the box thinking Adrian Clayborn(slimmed down) as OLB (1) Allen Bailey(slimmed down) as OLB (2) Cameron Jordan(slimmed down) as OLB (1) Christian Ballard(slimmed down) as OLB (2) It's Gonna Cost Ya Marcel Dareus (1) Von Miller (1) AJ Green (1) Julio Jones (1) Mark Ingram (1) Aldon Smith (1)
    Posted by Low-FB-IQ[/QUOTE]


    low, i love the "it's gonna cost ya"

    how do you not have quinn in the olb or its gonna cost ya column?
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Low-FB-IQ. Show Low-FB-IQ's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : low, i love the "it's gonna cost ya" how do you not have quinn in the olb or its gonna cost ya column?
    Posted by brdbreu[/QUOTE]

    I guess you could add him to the it's gonna cost ya category. You can see I only just added Aldon back in there.

    The DE - /> OLB coversion is risky enough in it's own right to trade up for. When you add in...

    1) arguably dead brain tumor/timebomb career threatening
    2) questionable decision making/suspension
    3) having a whole year off from playing football
    4) basically only 1 year of film to watch him play

    With all of that, and the basic conversion premise, I simply would not be comfortable trading up for him yet I think he will not be there either to fall in their lap. So he didn't fit anywhere.

    Not saying it's the right reasoning but I had one.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Low-FB-IQ. Show Low-FB-IQ's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    I found this a fun interesting fact...

    Belichick and Andy Reid have made a draft trade in every season since Belichick joined the Patriots.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from KyleCleric2. Show KyleCleric2's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    Pats draft suggestions that hurt my head:
    1. Trading up for JJ Watt. The only player I would trade up for Julio Jones, my favorite player in this draft. I like Cameron Heyward more than Watt. Aldon Smith is the #1 player we need.
    2. Drafting Akeem Ayers unless he ends up in the 3rd or 4th rounds. Martez Wilson does everything Ayers does but is far more athletic and better pass rusher. He has a higher ceiling and floor and his most likely outcome is better than Ayers.
    3. Drafting Brooks Reed in the top 40. Houston, Sheard, and Wilson are ahead of him on my draft board at OLB. I'm certain about whether Acho should be ahead of him or not. If we get Reed, my preference is middle of the 2nd round or later (preferably later)


    I'm in a new draft a couple of days. Didn't get the Patriots, though, just the Chargers and Eagles. I'll let you know what the Pats get in it. The guy who has the Pats has fairly similar ideas about them I think as I do so I expecting to like what he does with them. I doubt, though, it'll be as good as my last draft for the Pats. Getting Smith, Jordan, Carimi, Harris, Watkins, Hudson, Beal, and Harper was very lucky.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from brdbreu. Show brdbreu's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]Pats draft suggestions that hurt my head: 1. Trading up for JJ Watt. The only player I would trade up for Julio Jones, my favorite player in this draft. I like Cameron Heyward more than Watt. Aldon Smith is the #1 player we need. 2. Drafting Akeem Ayers unless he ends up in the 3rd or 4th rounds. Martez Wilson does everything Ayers does but is far more athletic and better pass rusher. He has a higher ceiling and floor and his most likely outcome is better than Ayers. 3. Drafting Brooks Reed in the top 40. Houston, Sheard, and Wilson are ahead of him on my draft board at OLB. I'm certain about whether Acho should be ahead of him or not. If we get Reed, my preference is middle of the 2nd round or later (preferably later) I'm in a new draft a couple of days. Didn't get the Patriots, though, just the Chargers and Eagles. I'll let you know what the Pats get in it. The guy who has the Pats has fairly similar ideas about them I think as I do so I expecting to like what he does with them. I doubt, though, it'll be as good as my last draft for the Pats. Getting Smith, Jordan, Carimi, Harris, Watkins, Hudson, Beal, and Harper was very lucky.
    Posted by KyleCleric2[/QUOTE]


    "Smith, Jordan, Carimi, Harris, Watkins, Hudson, Beal, and Harper was very lucky."


    hey kyle, yeah, take that in a minute. but you could trade players, which as of yet we cant do. also youre willing to dothings bb until now has been unwilling to do.

    you say aldon smith is the only player we need. you wouldnt take quinn above him if the opportunuty at the same place, or as a backup. for me he's on top of smith.

    do you value jordon over watt (and heyward) or just jordan fell to you?
    i know some have jordon just above watt, others reverse.


    thanks,

    peace


    ps do you have a line through to bb?
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from KyleCleric2. Show KyleCleric2's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : "Smith, Jordan, Carimi, Harris, Watkins, Hudson, Beal, and Harper was very lucky." hey kyle, yeah, take that in a minute. but you could trade players, which as of yet we cant do. also youre willing to dothings bb until now has been unwilling to do. you say aldon smith is the only player we need. you wouldnt take quinn above him if the opportunuty at the same place, or as a backup. for me he's on top of smith. do you value jordon over watt (and heyward) or just jordan fell to you? i know some have jordon just above watt, others reverse. thanks, peace ps do you have a line through to bb?
    Posted by brdbreu[/QUOTE]

    I would prefer Aldon Smith to Robert Quinn. Quinn seems stiffer. I also don't like that Quinn didn't play last year. I value Jordon over Watt, but I think I now like Heyward over both of them. If I was to redo the draft now, I'd take Smith at 17, Carimi at 21, and Heyward at 25. Trading players was somewhat of an advantage. Really getting that extra first round pick. I would prefer Mankins re-signing with us. In that situation, though, I'm forced to trade him since everyone on that site would assume he's gone and that we'd need a guard. In that sense, it's a pick for me for nothing. The TBC, Maneri, and Thomas trades were also more for the benefit of those on the site there, false moves I guess. As for BB, I don't have a line through to him, but I do channel him sometimes.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : I would prefer Aldon Smith to Robert Quinn. Quinn seems stiffer. I also don't like that Quinn didn't play last year. I value Jordon over Watt, but I think I now like Heyward over both of them. If I was to redo the draft now, I'd take Smith at 17, Carimi at 21, and Heyward at 25. Trading players was somewhat of an advantage. Really getting that extra first round pick. I would prefer Mankins re-signing with us. In that situation, though, I'm forced to trade him since everyone on that site would assume he's gone and that we'd need a guard. In that sense, it's a pick for me for nothing. The TBC, Maneri, and Thomas trades were also more for the benefit of those on the site there, false moves I guess. As for BB, I don't have a line through to him, but I do channel him sometimes.
    Posted by KyleCleric2[/QUOTE]

    Interesting. When is Heyward supposedly working out for everyone? Has he been cleared to do so?
    IF Heyward has a good pro day or workout, he could push himself up in the draft. There are only so many spots however, so other players could slip.

    I like Heyward too, but was cautious due to his injury and "rumor" about his motor. Honestly, I watched him a few times over the last 2 years, plus tape, he I can't see any motor issues. To me, he resembles the type of DE we would want most in this draft. The question for me on him is health (that elbow) and those nasty rumors about his motor. I dont buy the latter however.

    If we don't have to trade up from 17 to get an impact player, but in fact trade down, we have much more flexibiliy to fill all types of holes. I'd rather see us come down from 17 to 20-21, land someone like ASmith if he is there, use 28 on Heyward, pick up another 2nd, and use 1 of those on the combination of Wisnewski or Watkins, one possibly on BReed, and grab a WR (Cobb, Young)

    So something like this...assuming Heyward checks out..I like him
    20 - ASmith
    28 - Heyward (I think this is the spot for him..I think if goes beyond 28, he goes to the Jets perhaps)
    33 - Watkins, possibly slight trade down, but 33 is roughly it.
    51 - (Whatever 2nd we get from moving 17 down to 20) - BReed
    60 - Titus Young or RCobb
    74 - Barksdale (RT insurance)...
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : Wow Mb, I'm surprised to you hear might be coming around on the trade up idea.  I'm for it for the right player who can come in and make an immediate or near immediate impact.  But, I'm tempered with the knowledge that BB almost never makes a big move up in the first 2 rounds.  He only did it twice, for Daniel Graham and for Chad Jackson and that was a long time ago. I do think he'll be working the phones trying to get a good deal but otherwise he will stay put or trade down with trade down being more than 50% likely given recent behavior.  We traded back with our first pick the past three drafts having traded back twice before making our first selection each of the past two drafts.  The only thing that gives me any hope that this year may be different is he's been trying to find Seymour's replacement having drafted Deaderick and signing free agents GWarren and MStroud.  Just maybe he likes Watt and what's not to like if your BB. Assuming a trade back, what are our likely options?  I think the choices are many.  If no OTs are off the board, a number of teams including KC, PHI, SEA and BAL could want to move up for their first choice.  IND never trades and they are taking OL so PHI, BAL and even CHI and PIT could come up. I think the cost would be prohibitive for PIT or CHI.  They can't get their with their 2nd.  But BAL on down could.
    Posted by Faucetman[/QUOTE]

    Ha, yeah, I'd say the list is pretty small and would probably consist of players that would likely be top 5 candidates (Dareus, Peterson), a top 10 candidate (Amukamara) and maybe a couple of players with questions (Watt, Jordan, Miller, Quinn and Jones).  As much as I love Watt/Jordan, they are both still 290/287 and whether they can gain weight or not, BB has never taken a DE under 300 pounds before Rd 4 during his time in Foxboro, while Miller doesn't have ideal 34 olb size and BB has never taken an OLB in Rd 1 (which also covers Quinn who would also be a 34 OLB convert and has character concerns) during his his time in Foxboro, same for taking a WR in Rd 1 (Jones) though the only question on him may be his base intelligence.

    Again, the question now becomes, how high they'd be willing to trade up.  I don't see them moving into the top 10 with maybe 11 or 12 being the absolute max.

    With that being said, history says they won't do it, but the idea atleast has to be considered.
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : "Wow Mb, I'm surprised to you hear might be coming around on the trade up idea." all these reasoned thouhgts we've offered are finally only now taking thir affect, :) unbelievable. mb is not unmoveable :) (hope yoiu receive this with good intention and mirth mb) peace
    Posted by brdbreu[/QUOTE]

    Ha, in the words of Parcells, I reserve the right to change my mind.  We'll see what the voices in my head are telling me come late april.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from mbeaulieu07. Show mbeaulieu07's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]Pats draft suggestions that hurt my head: 1. Trading up for JJ Watt. The only player I would trade up for Julio Jones, my favorite player in this draft. I like Cameron Heyward more than Watt. Aldon Smith is the #1 player we need. 2. Drafting Akeem Ayers unless he ends up in the 3rd or 4th rounds. Martez Wilson does everything Ayers does but is far more athletic and better pass rusher. He has a higher ceiling and floor and his most likely outcome is better than Ayers. 3. Drafting Brooks Reed in the top 40. Houston, Sheard, and Wilson are ahead of him on my draft board at OLB. I'm certain about whether Acho should be ahead of him or not. If we get Reed, my preference is middle of the 2nd round or later (preferably later) I'm in a new draft a couple of days. Didn't get the Patriots, though, just the Chargers and Eagles. I'll let you know what the Pats get in it. The guy who has the Pats has fairly similar ideas about them I think as I do so I expecting to like what he does with them. I doubt, though, it'll be as good as my last draft for the Pats. Getting Smith, Jordan, Carimi, Harris, Watkins, Hudson, Beal, and Harper was very lucky.
    Posted by KyleCleric2[/QUOTE]

    KC, other than weight, what are your questions on Watt?  He's about as clean a player as they could hope for in Rd 1, IMO.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Faucetman. Show Faucetman's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    Guys, don't pay attention to the draft order reported today.  She didn't allow for comp picks.  Unless my math is wrong we have the following picks>

    1-17 (from OAK)
    1-28
    2-33 (from CAR)
    2-60
    3-74 (from MIN)
    3-92
    4-125
    5-159
    6-193
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : so you are fine with leaving it up to dallas where their need is o line why i think they would trade down, if amukamara is not there. if he is, they take him. wild card is if teveryone makes watt appear great and jj 's eyes light up.. re "if that fails", we have severl options to trrade up for watt as you have poiinted out (as well as i have) today. ' thats a lot of optins ot fail. if they all fail, we should get a domintaing olb high(ie quinn 1st, smith 2nd, kerrigan 3rd) and get whoever we can at de jordan, wilkerson, etc who will be the next best possiblity for qb pressurign de. there are tons of o line possibilities in the draft after we have these 2 assured. i'm not opposed to a  carimi (etc)pick in between the olb and de pick as long as we come away with pass pressurers. i dont want to go o line 1st. (we can trade up twice  or even 3 x if need be).
    Posted by brdbreu[/QUOTE]
    It is all about VALUE for BB.  A trade up with Dallas isn't clean and would take more than one selection or a bunch of switching of draft positions.  We know WAS wants out of 10 and that they have a ton of needs, far more than Dallas, therefore WAS is more likely to give us better value.  17 and 60 for 10 allows us to select a marquee player be it Watt, Jones or possibly Quinn.  Washington doesn't have a 3rd round pick so this gives them a pair of 2nds.  We get value in that we would be getting 50 draft points more than we gave up.  Also, any move above this would require putting pick 33 or 28 into play or another pick after pick 60.  I think giving up 60 is reasonable but we need to trade back from 28 or 33 to regain the lost pick 60.  Either pick 28 or 33 could be traded back.

    I am not nearly as gung ho as the rest of you about drafting a DE conversion type high in this draft, as in 17.  Miller is the lone exception.  I feel Miller can come in day 1 and get us 10 sacks.  Quinn has maturity issues, Kerrigan is tight in the hips and will struggle in coverage.  Aldon Smith is interesting but he still worries me.  As I've pointed out repeatedly there have been only a handful of 1st round successful DE to OLB conversion types who have put up 10 sacks their rookie year this decade.  There have been far more busts, i.e., Larry English, Aaron Maybin, Vernon Gholston, etc so, I don't see OLB as a quick fix.  I'd rather go the safe route, if we are going defense with our top pick, and select JJ Watt.  We've been missing that true 5 technique who can command doubles, penetrate and disrupt the backfield since Seymour left.
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    Faucet.....other then Quinns agent contact issues....what else is a maturity issue that you have heard of..??   Kerrigan is a football player..he can be coached and at the very least  will be a very good D end...agree on Anton Smith,,, But at sometime..its time to go get players that will at least address the isuues that we have...too many large bodied linemen that dont push the QB...

    Still could get JJ watt..   c Jordan...Or C Heyward. to start...then address the LB issues 2nd round
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : It is all about VALUE for BB.  A trade up with Dallas isn't clean and would take more than one selection or a bunch of switching of draft positions.  We know WAS wants out of 10 and that they have a ton of needs, far more than Dallas, therefore WAS is more likely to give us better value.  17 and 60 for 10 allows us to select a marquee player be it Watt, Jones or possibly Quinn.  Washington doesn't have a 3rd round pick so this gives them a pair of 2nds.  We get value in that we would be getting 50 draft points more than we gave up.  Also, any move above this would require putting pick 33 or 28 into play or another pick after pick 60.  I think giving up 60 is reasonable but we need to trade back from 28 or 33 to regain the lost pick 60.  Either pick 28 or 33 could be traded back. I am not nearly as gung ho as the rest of you about drafting a DE conversion type high in this draft, as in 17.  Miller is the lone exception.  I feel Miller can come in day 1 and get us 10 sacks.  Quinn has maturity issues, Kerrigan is tight in the hips and will struggle in coverage.  Aldon Smith is interesting but he still worries me.  As I've pointed out repeatedly there have been only a handful of 1st round successful DE to OLB conversion types who have put up 10 sacks their rookie year this decade.  There have been far more busts, i.e., Larry English, Aaron Maybin, Vernon Gholston, etc so, I don't see OLB as a quick fix.  I'd rather go the safe route, if we are going defense with our top pick, and select JJ Watt.  We've been missing that true 5 technique who can command doubles, penetrate and disrupt the backfield since Seymour left.
    Posted by Faucetman[/QUOTE]


    faucet i totally agree with you about de is not a need in the first round. with guys like heyward, ballard and baily ripe for the picking in the second round we can take an olb and o lineman in the first, just my opinion, i already posted my first four picks, akeem ayers, nate solder, cam heyward, and kendall hunter. coud look something like that or like this aldon smith, pouncy, ballard, ryan williams. who knows its a crapshoot with bb but we all should rest assured we will be getting some good players!!!!!
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]Pats draft suggestions that hurt my head: 1. Trading up for JJ Watt. The only player I would trade up for Julio Jones, my favorite player in this draft. I like Cameron Heyward more than Watt. Aldon Smith is the #1 player we need. 2. Drafting Akeem Ayers unless he ends up in the 3rd or 4th rounds. Martez Wilson does everything Ayers does but is far more athletic and better pass rusher. He has a higher ceiling and floor and his most likely outcome is better than Ayers. 3. Drafting Brooks Reed in the top 40. Houston, Sheard, and Wilson are ahead of him on my draft board at OLB. I'm certain about whether Acho should be ahead of him or not. If we get Reed, my preference is middle of the 2nd round or later (preferably later) I'm in a new draft a couple of days. Didn't get the Patriots, though, just the Chargers and Eagles. I'll let you know what the Pats get in it. The guy who has the Pats has fairly similar ideas about them I think as I do so I expecting to like what he does with them. I doubt, though, it'll be as good as my last draft for the Pats. Getting Smith, Jordan, Carimi, Harris, Watkins, Hudson, Beal, and Harper was very lucky.
    Posted by KyleCleric2[/QUOTE]
    I echo Mb's question, what are your concerns about JJ Watt?  However, I totally agree that trading up for Julio Jones has merit.  We might not even have to get to 10 to get him because if Washington address other needs, Jones should slip to STL at 14.  Let's say we use 17/60 to get to 10 and both Watt and Jones are there, you'd take Jones.  A strong case could be made for either and I would be thrilled to death to get either.

    Julio Jones, 6-3, 220, 4.34.  Had big time production at Alabama.  Played in the tough SEC for Nick Saban, a long time BB buddy.  Jones went up against the top CB in Patrick Peterson and put up 10/89/1.  Peterson limited his big plays to a long of 19 but Jones had a big game against the best corner in college football.  Jones is a tough strong kid.  He broke his hand in a game (I think it was Mississippi), had two screws inserted and was back on the field the following week.  He ran a 4.34 at the Combine with a broken foot.  So, Jones will play with pain.  He's a strong kid who will block down field and battle for the ball.  Jones will absolutely take the top of a defense and make big plays.  He could win some match ups with Revis which would be huge.  The downside are questions about his durability.  But as a player and person, he would be an excellent fit.  Jones immediately upgrades Tate and should Branch go down or if Branch should leave after 2011, Jones would become our #1 WR and big threat and weapon for Brady.

    JJ Watt, 6-6, 292, 4.81.  Watt possesses the perfect size for a 34 DE.  He has adequate frame to add 10-15 lbs.  Watt is an absolute physical freak running a 4.81 at his size and putting up a 37" vertical.  There were safeties at the Combine not this athletic.  Watt's times were better than any times put up by any of our OLB's at their Combines.  Watt benched 34 reps which is really good.  But the most important thing is Watt's tape backs up his physical skills.  Watt is a tireless player.  Lott IMPACT Trophy winner … AP and SI second-team All-American … consensus first-team All-Big Ten … Academic All-Big Ten … Team MVP … Academic All-Big Ten … Led team in TFLs, sacks, quarterback hurries, forced fumbles and blocked kicks … second on team in tackles, pass breakups and passes defended … tied for sixth in school history with 21.0 tackles for loss in single season, 91 TFL yards ranks seventh … three blocked kicks is tied for second-most in one year at UW.  If you consider his knack for batting down passes and sacks, he could easily end an average of one series a game.  The man is 6-6 with long arms and a 37" vertical.  I bet he can touch the top of a backboard.  I bet he would block a couple of FGs a year.  As a former TE I could see him used on goal line situations like we used to do with Vrabel.  Imagine having to defend Gronkowski and Watt at the goal line?      

    Both players are elite, both are game changers, both are high motor guys who are clean off the field.  It comes down to which do we value more.  If you look at our history of BB drafting 3 DL in the first round and no WRs, I think that answers the question.  But BB doesn't usually make bold moves up this high in the draft.  Would he go to 10 for either player?  I don't know.  I could see him going to 13 if Jones is there but I can't see Watt getting past HOU at 11.
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]Faucet.....other then Quinns agent contact issues....what else is a maturity issue that you have heard of..??   Kerrigan is a football player..he can be coached and at the very least  will be a very good D end...agree on Anton Smith,,, But at sometime..its time to go get players that will at least address the isuues that we have...too many large bodied linemen that dont push the QB... Still could get JJ watt..   c Jordan...Or C Heyward. to start...then address the LB issues 2nd round
    Posted by fishers5[/QUOTE]
    No that's it.  Taking 2 gold watches from your agent and blowing your entire junior year and jeopardizing your pro career is a major concern.  The brain tumor is another concern, albeit a lesser one.  Not playing last year is another concern.  Was Quinn's sophomore year a fluke?  People are raising the same issues about Fairley and Bowers in terms of all they one year wonders?  If Ingram was coming off his sophomore year, he'd be a top 5 or 10 pick but because he played last year and was beat up a bit, he had a down year, plus he had less touches because of the emergence of Trent Richardson.  So, Ingram is being punished for playing while Quinn gets a free pass.

    We need players who are grounded and not apt to make mistakes.  We took a chance on Meriweather.  He held it together for awhile but now look.  Zebra's don't change their stripes and taking a player in the top 10 and paying them a guaranteed $30MM + (depending on if there's a rookie cap), makes them too risky.  I would not be surprised if Robert Quinn's name isn't even on BB's draft board.

     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : faucet i totally agree with you about de is not a need in the first round. with guys like heyward, ballard and baily ripe for the picking in the second round we can take an olb and o lineman in the first, just my opinion, i already posted my first four picks, akeem ayers, nate solder, cam heyward, and kendall hunter. coud look something like that or like this aldon smith, pouncy, ballard, ryan williams. who knows its a crapshoot with bb but we all should rest assured we will be getting some good players!!!!!
    Posted by isurfvb35[/QUOTE]
    Thanks.  I'm not a fan of Ayers, especially at 17.  He had limited sack production and isn't especially fast.  He does have pass rush ability and moves but it hasn't translated on the field.  He had just 4 sacks in each of his last two years.  But Ayers has experience at OLB which others don't have.  Solder is a project.  He's almost too tall and doesn't bend well.  Solder did not impress me Senior Bowl week.  I have him as my 4th rated OT.  I like Heyward but we'd need to use 28 on him and hope he can avoid injury. 

    I love Kendall Hunter.  I'd view him as a great pick at 60.  Ryan Williams could end up being the best back in the draft but again, injury concerns.  Pouncey won't make it to 28, there are too many teams who need a C/G in that 21-27 range and his brother's success is really going to help him go early.  I like Pouncey but think we'd need to use 17 on him.  A really like Ballard too but he's tweaner.  I'm not sure where he fits.
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : KC, other than weight, what are your questions on Watt?  He's about as clean a player as they could hope for in Rd 1, IMO.
    Posted by mbeaulieu07[/QUOTE]


    I have a question of fit based on his playing style. I have said it from the very first time I commented on him and have not been able to watch any new film to erase having a question.

    I see him as a better fit in a 3-4 1 gap system.

    He fits physically save for the "perfect" weight cause he's a gifted athlete and as you said he is clean off the field loves the game etc etc.

    He is compared to Mario Williams athletically but Mario wasn't drafted to play 3-4 DE. He has been excellent for Houston but we have to wait and see how that transition plays out down there.

    If you watch Jarvis Jenkins play and then watch JJ Watt play they play totally different style.

    Jarvis is almost always inside the trench dealing with the traffic and almost always take his man head on stands him up dead in his tracks looks around him and then tosses his blocker aside to make the tackle once he finds the ball.

    Watt is almost always playing as far outside as possible to make best use of his superior athletic ability and speed. Often opts to quickly side step his blocker and wildly run into the back field and then try and react to what is happening after the fact.

    This is not to say Jarvis is better than Watt. I am not saying that at all. I am giving a reason for my question on fit, over and above weight.

    The other thing that is "MY" issue, and its unfair to Watt, is I can never get that play in the bowl game out of my head. The one where its in the redzone, he has outside contain, crashes down and takes the inside fake hand off. He has inside help, nothing but traffic inside. The QB keeps it and waltzes easily into the left endzone right around the outside right where Watt vacated. That's not a physical limitation, it's a mental mistake, a dumb play. He's often over aggressive and with pure emotion and no control.

    I don't think its unreasonable to at least have a question on the guy.
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    I just saw this mock.

    17.  Nate Solder
    28.  Aldon Smith
    33.  Mark Ingram
    60.  Chris Culliver
    74.  Quinton Carter
    92.  Jarvis Jenkins

    This mock had Watt going to Houston and Miller going to Washington.

     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : I have a question of fit based on his playing style. I have said it from the very first time I commented on him and have not been able to watch any new film to erase having a question. I see him as a better fit in a 3-4 1 gap system. He fits physically save for the "perfect" weight cause he's a gifted athlete and as you said he is clean off the field loves the game etc etc. He is compared to Mario Williams athletically but Mario wasn't drafted to play 3-4 DE. He has been excellent for Houston but we have to wait and see how that transition plays out down there. If you watch Jarvis Jenkins play and then watch JJ Watt play they play totally different style. Jarvis is almost always inside the trench dealing with the traffic and almost always take his man head on stands him up dead in his tracks looks around him and then tosses his blocker aside to make the tackle once he finds the ball. Watt is almost always playing as far outside as possible to make best use of his superior athletic ability and speed. Often opts to quickly side step his blocker and wildly run into the back field and then try and react to what is happening after the fact. This is not to say Jarvis is better than Watt. I am not saying that at all. I am giving a reason for my question on fit, over and above weight thing. The other thing that is "MY" issue, and its unfair to Watt, is I can never get that play in the bowl game out of my head. The one where its in the redzone, he has outside contain, crashes down and takes the inside fake hand off. He has inside help, nothing but traffic inside. The QB keeps it and waltzes easily into the left endzone right around the outside right where Watt vacated. That's not a physical limitation, it's a mental mistake, a dumb play. He's often over aggressive and with pure emotion and no control. I don't think its unreasonable to at least have a question on the guy.
    Posted by Low-FB-IQ[/QUOTE]

    I totally agree with you on this assessment.  Watt's style of play does not seem to fit with the Pats' scheme.  He always seems to go around the blocker or slash through the line.  I rarely see him to collapse the pocket by pushing the OL into the QB.  I even saw him lining up wide and rushing from a two-point stand.
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    Here's my somewhat reasonably realistic dream draft without trades.

    17.   DE JJ Watt
    28.   OT Tyron Smith
    33.   RB Mark Ingram
    60.   C/G Stefen Wisniewski
    74.   OLB Dontay Moch
    92.   WR Edmond Gates
    125.  FS Robert Sands
    159.  OLB Greg Romeus
    193.  RB Da'Rel Scott
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : I totally agree with you on this assessment.  Watt's style of play does not seem to fit with the Pats' scheme.  He always seems to go around the blocker or slash through the line.  I rarely see him to collapse the pocket by pushing the OL into the QB.  I even saw him lining up wide and rushing from a two-point stand.
    Posted by TrustBill[/QUOTE]
    So, he can't be coached up?  You can line him up anywhere including OLB on certain plays.  As a college DE his job was to get after the QB and contain on running plays.  He did that. 
     
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