2011 Patriots Draft Options ***THANKS TO ALL WHO CONTRIBUTED!***

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from brdbreu. Show brdbreu's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    re some of the miami guys some of you have been talking abnout drafting for ne.

    casserly mayock and davis say:

    bailey is a tweener who cant stand up and is too small for the line.


    hankerson is a possesion receiver(no separation, no rac) who doesnt catch the ball (drops, drops, drops)
    (unless you count after the season is over)


    harris has o exceptioonal change of direction. cant cover the big receiver or the slot (see no quick change of direction), no great top end speed.
    he's a 4th corner on a team (heloooo..  do we need that?
    no!

    franklin, stiff in the hips. kick him inside.
    miniscus surgery- i mentioned that is something i like to stay away from. you really need your whole miniscus in good shape to play a lot of football (in my opinion)


    so ohter than o line, back to what i've been saying, who the heck needs a bunch of "c" an "d"  grade players. might as well try undrafted fa's rb's.

    gather our picks and if necessary go up.

    but whatever you do, get our impact rushers de and olb, our lineman to protect brady.

    dont waste rd 2-6 picks just because we traded back in years past, "now we have to use them".
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from brdbreu. Show brdbreu's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    for reference,
    mayock has rating th ebest players in the draft:

    kerrigan 17th
    jordon as 15th best player
    aldon 14th
    watt 12th
    fairley 8th (plays better than that, but the concerns drop him here)

    quinn 6th!!! ("best edge rusher in the draft")

    dareus 1, of course scheme diverse "doesnt get past 2 denver"
    says gabbert should be pick #1 to carolina


    he also says aldon should gain 15 lbs and be a de in 4-3
    says tight hips a little

    puts quinn in a 4-3 too.

    "jj watt and jordan sees as ideal de in 3-4"
    rates watt 1st, jordan 2nd, heyward 3rd as 3-4 de

    he says:
    jordan stout against run,
    pushes the pocket
    atheletic
    good pass rush

    says jordan and watt likely go 12-20
    heyward 21-32
    wilkeson 21-32 (and said wilk was a devleopmenatal player

    kerrigan 4-3 de; "has a chanc to stand up. you know his floor more than others may not have as much up side the other top guys"

    rudolph 32nd  at 32 cause "cant work out". "hes rob gronkowski"
    pouncey 28
    heyward 27 injuries (bargain end of 1)
    williams 26
          
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Faucetman. Show Faucetman's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    "J.J. Watt would also be a good fit here, but the Pats WON'T draft him. Watt is represented by agent Tom Condon, who Belichick has an ongoing feud with stemming from the ugly Ben Watson negotiations some years ago. Belichick swore he would ABSOLUTELY NEVER even consider a prospect represented by Condon again, and so far, he's been true to his word." -- Walterfootball.com
    Posted by NYPatsFan12

    This topic has been brought up in the past.  If true, then we need to write off any player Condon represents.  I've asked Mike Reiss what he thinks about this and will post his response when I receive it.  It would be a shame to pass on a perfect player fit because of an agent but I'm taking this story seriously.

    Who else does he represent?  I know he also represents AJ Green and Blaine Gabbert but those players wouldn't be targets of the Pats.
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    If Jones is there and you moved up to 10, you grab him.
    Posted by bobbysu


    Bobby,

    If Watt is off our board because of Condon than I agree.  There is no one else I'd rather move up to 10 for than Julio Jones unless Miller somehow slips through the cracks, which he won't.  However, I could see WAS passing on Jones to fill other needs and we may only have to get to 13 to take him just before STL.  Detroit's top need is a CB and unless they trade up to Dallas, Prince will be gone to either DAL or HOU or even WAS.  So perhaps Detroit will target Jimmy Smith and knowing they can trade back to 17 and still get him, we could move to 13 for pick 74 and maybe get a 7th rounder back.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from ShiningWizard. Show ShiningWizard's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    Ricky stanzi is getting a strong look by the Pats.  He's a guy I think has great long-term potential in the Pats' system and I'd like to see the Pats take him with their 4th round pick. 

    By Mike Reiss
    On Thursday, the quarterback position was under the spotlight, with the thought that it wouldn't be a surprise if the Patriots use one of their nine 2011 draft picks on a developmental type behind Tom Brady and Brian Hoyer.

    Iowa's
    Ricky Stanzi is one option that the Patriots took a closer look at Thursday, with offensive coaches working him out on campus.

    Stanzi (6-4, 223) was a team captain at Iowa, where he started 35 games from 2008-2010 in Kirk Ferentz' pro-style offense. He had his best season in 2010, completing 64 percent of his passes, with 25 touchdowns and six interceptions.

    One connection to the Patriots is that Stanzi has been working with Tom Martinez, who has been Tom Brady's personal coach.

    ESPN's Scouts Inc. rates Stanzi as the eighth quarterback in the draft and 98th overall prospect.

    By the time the draft arrives, the Patriots will have worked out or met with anywhere from 100-200 prospects, so a private workout doesn't necessarily mean that the team has plans to draft the player. Most accurately, it is a sign that the team is still gathering information on the player before placing a final grade on him.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Low-FB-IQ. Show Low-FB-IQ's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : re: "Watt is almost always playing as far outside as possible to make best use of his superior athletic ability and speed. Often opts to quickly side step his blocker and wildly run into the back field and then try and react to what is happening after the fact." hi low,  yes of course it's not unreasonable to give any alternative opinions and to question players, picks. i think i also see what you see. hes a mad dash after the qb, not playing bb's de role. but does bb see in him the ability and believe he can teach him his system?

    Sure BB has a big ego I am sure he thinks he can coach "anybody" to play a certain way. The question is how long does it take and how does what Watt might change into as a player affect your opinion of the pick?

    is watt the best shot for bb's sytem and to pressure the qb.

    I do not know that for certain. No one does.

    if not, move up, down or stay pat to get the guy who is.  you feel jenkins will consistently pressure the passer, stop the run and hoild his lanes?

    I think he has the potential to do those things consistently. There are not as many passing plays in his clips as running plays so its hard to get a feel on his push to the QB. I feel confident he can do the other things. There are two films out on youtube on him from two different games. One he looks great and playing exact style as NE. The other has a different game plan where he was doing a bunch of slanting/slashing type plays and ended up on the ground to much. I hate that style anyway though cause any half decent blocker will kill you and use your momentum against you and take you where you want to go as soon as you turn your shoulders. So my opinions are based on seeing him play the NE style and excel at it.

    it seems the analysts do feel watt will be a force at de to pressure the passer and all around be a very good de. they call him the best 5 technique in the draft. they could all be wrong.

    NE plays their 34 vastly different than most other 34 teams. That's a simplistic blanket statement. I think there are other factors for the Watt love by the NON die hard Patriot specific "experts". He's white. The Patriots seem to have more of them over the years than a lot of teams. He's clean off the field, he speaks of passion and love of the game (ex. crying after loss of game). He's a high effort guy. Lastly but certainly not least is everyone's universal perception that the Pats need pass rush so they see Watt had good sacks numbers at Wisconsin. To the casual observer they add all those good perceptions up and say perfect fit for NE. Overlooking, imo, the fundamental fit that they look at DT's, of certain size, with good experience, playing inside stopping the run.

    NE got lucky and hit a home run on Richard Seymour. They were considering Gerrard Warren with the pick also but he was off the board and they did not have to chase after Seymour. They had no idea he would had been that good. They certainly did NOT draft him for his sacking ability. He had like 9.5 sacks total in 4 years. So i find it odd that people are suggesting that NE look for a DE to give them big sack numbers in their system. They would like consistent pressure but they do not or i should say have not specifically targeted a DE for his pass rush unless it's a later round pick specifically for that purpose.


    i acknowledge that. if you see something lets discuss. (the "bad" in him, the good in player "?").
    Posted by brdbreu


    I am not saying Watt is not a great athlete or player or that he won't turn out excellent in the NFL. ONLY that the past fits raise a question of his fit, nothing more.

    It won't surprise me in NE drafted him. It won't surprise me if he fell in their lap and they didn't draft him. In my mind, if i feel it could go either way, then I have to come away with a question on fit because Watt seems to match all the other intangibles I mentioned earlier.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Faucetman. Show Faucetman's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : I personally would draft players like Watt or Dunlap from last year.  I would move him around and ask him to do what he does best, that is, to get into the opposition's back-field ASAP.  To ask a player like Watt to just control the gap is kind of wasteful.  The question, would BB tweak the scheme to a more attacking style 3-4. Another topic, I like Mark Ingram at #17.  Don't give it too easily.  We need a back to rush with power, have some wiggle and catch the pass.  When the Jets sold out to play the pass, we would have made them pay dearly if we had a big-time back like Emmit Smith in his prime.  The question is: is Ingram truly elite?
    Posted by TrustBill

    If the Dolphins pass on Ingram and he's there at 17 I do think he has to be considered.  If Watt is off our board and Jordan is gone and we don't have any DE conversion types we like our choices would be a OL or Ingram.

    As I've pointed out, in the BB era, we have never taken an OT in the first round and the only OL we ever took in the first was Mankins at 32 and that was a year where we didn't have a 2nd round pick and had a huge need at OG.  However, Maroney was taken at 21 so Ingram at 17 is not out of the question.  The need isn't that great for an elite RB when there is value at the position all the way through the 5th round.  So, I don't think BB would take Ingram but a case could be made for him if we feel he is the next Emmitt Smith. 

    We haven't had a back with the blend of size, power and catching ability in a long time, if ever, that Ingram has.  People knock Ingram's top end speed.  He posted a 4.62 at the Combine but improved that time to 4.53 and 4.56 at his Pro Day.  BJGE posted a 4.60 at his Combine so let's say both runners have essentially the same top end speed.  BJGE is listed at 5-11, 215 and Ingram is 5-9, 215.  BJGE is coming off a 1,000 yard season.  But BJGE only had 12 catches last year for 85 yards.  Ingram would contribute much more in the passing game.

    Getting Ingram for us is a luxury we can afford where a lot of other teams can't.  The popular place for Ingram to go is of course Miami, but they don't have a 2nd round pick and pick again at 79.  Miami could easily go QB or Pouncey at 15 and get a solid back at 79.  Then you have the Giants at 19, TB at 20 and NO at 24 that could use a back.  Again, they all have other bigger needs so Ingram could slip.

    After considering all of this, I don't think we'd take Ingram at 17.  I think Pouncey or the best OT on the board is the smarter play if we are staying at 17.  If Ingram slips through to 28 or 33 then I say the value improves enough to draft him. 
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Low-FB-IQ. Show Low-FB-IQ's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : "To ask a player like Watt to just control the gap is kind of wasteful. " totally agree! Another topic, I like Mark Ingram at #17.  Don't give it too easily.  We need a back to rush with power, have some wiggle and catch the pass. " yes i agree. ingram, dont know. i agree with the need. bu tyou cant go up to 10 and get watt with 28. so youre no tgonna get ingram wiht 17 and with 17 gop get watt. need a strategy if you want those 2. and re faucet, i dont see ingram making it to 60
    Posted by brdbreu


    Which is why I said I saw him more as a 34 1-Gap player and have a question on fit.


     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Faucetman. Show Faucetman's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : re  "As for BB, I don't have a line through to him, but I do channel him sometimes." :) i like smith or quinn. people that know (better than i) have him as the best paas rushing olb (including mayock). understand on offf thefield etc. small infraction. loss of year yes.  still seen him mocked 1-6 wiht all that. if he drops (you take aldon if availble at 17 over quinn i understand). i think quinn also starts sooner and will be better against the run. can you give me your detailed analysis of why heyward over watt? again watt is shooting up with everyone including mayock. they all believe he is a top 10 talent.  heyward top 15 last year. not that this year. fill me in. i really dont care who(at olb and de in the draft) as long as they can do the job of consistent pass rush and run stopping. and re carimi for nothing? if we exchange carimi for mankins, we save a lot of money. that is  one plus. ifelt we should have signed him a long time ago. (what message do yo send your team?, bleed foer us, we'll use you cheap for years, then screw with you).
    Posted by brdbreu

    Carimi vs. Mankins?  I don't think that is the comparison.  Yes, they worked Carimi out at G during Senior Bowl week but G is not a good position for him.  Carimi for sure would be a mauling type, run blocking RT who you can play at LT but he will struggle against elite speed.  So, drafting Carimi would more likely result in replacing Light and Kaczur which saves potentially more.  Kaczur is at $3.5MM and Light was reportedly offered a deal for $7MM.  Carimi can be had at 17 with no doubt.  If Pouncey gets past Miami, he too could be had a 17.  So, we have two choices that fill two big needs. 
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Faucetman. Show Faucetman's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    Why would we work out a Tom Condon player if we would never draft him?  Would a rookie pay scale put Condon players back in play for the Pats?  See below story.

    Offensive lineman Anthony Castonzo and linebacker Mark Herzlich headlined a group of almost 40 area college football prospects who worked out at Boston College pro day on Wednesday afternoon under the practice bubble at Alumni Stadium.

    Under the watchful eye of scouts and coaches from 17 different teams — including Patriots offensive line coach Dante Scarnecchia — prospects from Boston College, Harvard, UMass, Holy Cross and UNH, as well as several other schools were put through a series of drills, including the 40-yard dash, 3-cone drill, shuttle runs and blocking and receiving drills.

    Castonzo, believed by many to be one of the best — if not the best — offensive tackle in this year’s draft — spent much of his time getting some hands-on work with Scarnecchia

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Faucetman. Show Faucetman's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : disagree on sf #1 need. their #1 need is quarterback. they dont have a starter. your comments?
    Posted by brdbreu

    Regarding SF, it will depend largely on how Jim Harbaugh views Alex Smith who finally put together a decent season, 2,370, 14 TD, 10 INT and 59.6% completion percentage.  I don't dispute that SF needs a QB but I don't have Newton or Gabbert available at 7.  SF needs a NT and an OLB IMO a little bit more.  If you can't get your future QB at 7, you don't reach.  They can trade down if they like a Ponder or Mallett or they can wait until round 2 to get a developmental guy with upside like Kaepernick who could end up being better in time than all of them.

    Perhaps SF moving up to 28 or 33 with us from 45 to land a guy like Kaepernick or Dalton.  8 of the top 10 drafting teams need a QB but I see only 2 of them going that route.  I don't see a third one coming off the board before 15 or 16.  MIN at 12 is a possibility but it comes down to these teams that miss out on Newton and Mallett looking to get back to the bottom of the 1st or top of 2nd to fill those needs from the pool of Mallett, Locker, Ponder, Dalton etc.

    If a MIN, MIA or JAX reaches for a QB in their round 1 slots, that would be very good news for us.  If one OT comes off the board before 17, that helps us.  DAL and WAS are the first teams that may take an OT.  OTs are usually in high demand and although this year's crop isn't as good as the past 5 years, if you need an OT, getting one is always a priority that trumps WR.  So, I think WAS goes with an OT if they can't trade down or get their QB.

    There is no doubt in my mind that ARI, TEN and WAS QB needs are bigger than anyone.  I'm not sold on BUF or CAR going QB but both could.  I think we will see some movement in the top 10 among those teams trying to get Gabbert or Newton.  In the end, it won't affect us but would effect us in terms of which teams are left trying to move up from the 2nd round. 

    Based on TOP need and talent match, without regard to specific teams, I have put together this list of positions likely to get drafted before 17.

    2 CB, 2 WR, 3 QB, 1 OT, 2 DT, 1 OLB, 1 RB, 4 DE

    Assigning players you have:

    Peterson, Amukamara, Jones, Green, Newton, Gabbert, Mallett (Ponder) Castonzo, Dareus, Fairley, Miller, Ingram, Quinn, Bowers.  You then have 2 of these 3 DEs going from Watt, Jordan and Aldon Smith.

    So, we should have a choice of 1 of the 3 DEs, 4 of the top 5 OTs, the top C/G and Kerrigan.
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    Ricky stanzi is getting a strong look by the Pats.  He's a guy I think has great long-term potential in the Pats' system and I'd like to see the Pats take him with their 4th round pick.  By Mike Reiss On Thursday, the quarterback position was under the spotlight , with the thought that it wouldn't be a surprise if the Patriots use one of their nine 2011 draft picks on a developmental type behind Tom Brady and Brian Hoyer. Iowa's Ricky Stanzi is one option that the Patriots took a closer look at Thursday, with offensive coaches working him out on campus. Stanzi (6-4, 223) was a team captain at Iowa, where he started 35 games from 2008-2010 in Kirk Ferentz' pro-style offense. He had his best season in 2010, completing 64 percent of his passes, with 25 touchdowns and six interceptions. One connection to the Patriots is that Stanzi has been working with Tom Martinez, who has been Tom Brady's personal coach. ESPN's Scouts Inc. rates Stanzi as the eighth quarterback in the draft and 98th overall prospect. By the time the draft arrives, the Patriots will have worked out or met with anywhere from 100-200 prospects, so a private workout doesn't necessarily mean that the team has plans to draft the player. Most accurately, it is a sign that the team is still gathering information on the player before placing a final grade on him.
    Posted by ShiningWizard

    Not surprising, but I don't think we'd take him before 92 or 125.
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    Question to all:

    Let's say both Amukamara and Watt are available at either 17 or somewhere between 11 or 17 (a spot that shouldn't require them to give up 28 or 33 if they were willing to trade up).

    Who do you make a move for and why? 

    If it's up to me, I say Amukamara (a name that was popular a long time ago in a land far far away, basically before Oakland didn't s*ck this year).  Today, he's currently anywhere from 7-19 on "big boards", but primarily between to 7-9 and like Watt, he's a high character kid that puts in the time to keep himself prepared both physically and mentally and is the epitome of 4 down potential.  Positionally, this kid gives you value at either CB or S, man or zone as well as ST and versatility is the name of the game with BB. He also brings a great combo of size/speed/quicks and instincts.
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    Question to all: Let's say both Amukamara and Watt are available at either 17 or somewhere between 11 or 17 (a spot that shouldn't require them to give up 28 or 33 if they were willing to trade up). Who do you make a move for and why?  If it's up to me, I say Amukamara (a name that was popular a long time ago in a land far far away, basically before Oakland didn't s*ck this year).  Today, he's currently anywhere from 7-19 on "big boards", but primarily between to 7-9 and like Watt, he's a high character kid that puts in the time to keep himself prepared both physically and mentally and is the epitome of 4 down potential.  Positionally, this kid gives you value at either CB or S, man or zone as well as ST and versatility is the name of the game with BB. He also brings a great combo of size/speed/quicks and instincts.
    Posted by mbeaulieu07

    He'd have to be considered.  But I think with Bodden coming back, and unless the plan is to move him to safety, how much playing time does he get?  Certainly he'd come in on nickel situations and help out on ST.  But a first round pick should be a 4 down player which he would be in time but I don't see him ahead of Bodden on the depth chart.  Bodden is signed through 2013 and McCourty 2014 so unless there is an injury...

    I think Watt would trump Amukamara.  I also worry about Amukamara's ball skills.  He bats balls down far more often then trying to catch them.  Still, he's the second corner off the board and I doubt he gets past HOU.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    Question to all: Let's say both Amukamara and Watt are available at either 17 or somewhere between 11 or 17 (a spot that shouldn't require them to give up 28 or 33 if they were willing to trade up). Who do you make a move for and why?  If it's up to me, I say Amukamara (a name that was popular a long time ago in a land far far away, basically before Oakland didn't s*ck this year).  Today, he's currently anywhere from 7-19 on "big boards", but primarily between to 7-9 and like Watt, he's a high character kid that puts in the time to keep himself prepared both physically and mentally and is the epitome of 4 down potential.  Positionally, this kid gives you value at either CB or S, man or zone as well as ST and versatility is the name of the game with BB. He also brings a great combo of size/speed/quicks and instincts.
    Posted by mbeaulieu07


    I'd say Watt.

    I don't really see Amu as a S and with Bodden and McCourty he'd basically be a 3rd CB. Also when looking at ST you have to realize that with the kick-offs being moved up and Ghost's leg how many returns will there actually be for him to be a gunner?

    At this point the best way to help the secondary is to improve the pass rush. I saw a stat that said last year opponents QB's averaged well over 5s to throw the ball against the Pats. That's huge. I don't care who is in your secondary if you aren't putting pressure on the QB all coverage will eventually fall apart. If the Pats can get some pressure on QB's and drop that 5+ secs to 3 then I don't even think we need to worry about about our 3rd cb in coverage. Think of all the no name cb's we use to toss out when our front 7 could get QB's to panic. I have always felt the best way to get pressure on a QB starts in the trenches and ripples out. A great DE will get to QB's, collapse a pocket, or open a couple holes for a OLB. Seymour was that type of player. He might not have gotten the stats but he consistently put pressure on QB's or opened a hole for someone else to come in. No one on this current roster can do that which imo is why we couldn't get pressure on QB's since the Seymour trade.

    *Note - Not saying it was a bad trade at all. I actually liked the trade but we have yet to fill that hole. 
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : Bobby, If Watt is off our board because of Condon than I agree.  There is no one else I'd rather move up to 10 for than Julio Jones unless Miller somehow slips through the cracks, which he won't.  However, I could see WAS passing on Jones to fill other needs and we may only have to get to 13 to take him just before STL.  Detroit's top need is a CB and unless they trade up to Dallas, Prince will be gone to either DAL or HOU or even WAS.  So perhaps Detroit will target Jimmy Smith and knowing they can trade back to 17 and still get him, we could move to 13 for pick 74 and maybe get a 7th rounder back.
    Posted by Faucetman


    Would you move up for one of the top top CBs?  Pressure can come from elite pass rush speed or cover sack/pressure.

    I love the idea of Bodden and DM, if they play to their highest level IMO this is a top 3 tandem in the league but behind them is everyone happy or confortable with Arrington/Butler/Wilhite/Chung(only because he was used in nickle coverage)

    If Watt is off the board because of his agent and the run of Des including Smith and Quinn happen when in the early teams Amuk. is left is he worth having at that point?  Would Bodden in some packages move to FS? 

    Amukamara is a very mature young man and no character concerns along with a very good overall CB.  I would be ok with taking Amukamara 10 to 13 if he falls (17 74)  and at 28 try to pickup a Reed or Sheard and go into next season with the current DE roster or add Wilkerson?

    Think Jones will be too expensive, he might have worked his way to Clev at 6 if Cincy takes Green.

    I know some are not high on Wilkerson but I would be ok with

    10 Amukamara CB
    28 Wilkerson (he probably won't be available here) DE
    33 Sheard OLB
    60 Franklin OT/OG
    92 Moffitt OG/C
    4th Rnd Housler TE/WR

    Can't discount this option on the D side. 
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    This from Mike Reiss to the question of whether or not Tom Condon players are off the Patriots' draft board.

    "I don’t think they are off, Andy, because of the likelihood of a rookie cap/slotting system."

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from mbeaulieu07. Show mbeaulieu07's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : He'd have to be considered.  But I think with Bodden coming back, and unless the plan is to move him to safety, how much playing time does he get?  Certainly he'd come in on nickel situations and help out on ST.  But a first round pick should be a 4 down player which he would be in time but I don't see him ahead of Bodden on the depth chart.  Bodden is signed through 2013 and McCourty 2014 so unless there is an injury... I think Watt would trump Amukamara.  I also worry about Amukamara's ball skills.  He bats balls down far more often then trying to catch them.  Still, he's the second corner off the board and I doubt he gets past HOU.
    Posted by Faucetman


    The problem is, the Bodden argument can be made for Warren as well and they've also brought in Stroud (who knows if he'll stick around).  The decision would need to be made on who the BPA is between the two and who has the best short term/long term value.

    I'm not sure I worry about the ball skills for a kid that has 24 passes defended over the past two seasons including 5 INT's. 
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from mbeaulieu07. Show mbeaulieu07's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : I'd say Watt. I don't really see Amu as a S and with Bodden and McCourty he'd basically be a 3rd CB. Also when looking at ST you have to realize that with the kick-offs being moved up and Ghost's leg how many returns will there actually be for him to be a gunner? At this point the best way to help the secondary is to improve the pass rush. I saw a stat that said last year opponents QB's averaged well over 5s to throw the ball against the Pats. That's huge. I don't care who is in your secondary if you aren't putting pressure on the QB all coverage will eventually fall apart. If the Pats can get some pressure on QB's and drop that 5+ secs to 3 then I don't even think we need to worry about about our 3rd cb in coverage. Think of all the no name cb's we use to toss out when our front 7 could get QB's to panic. I have always felt the best way to get pressure on a QB starts in the trenches and ripples out. A great DE will get to QB's, collapse a pocket, or open a couple holes for a OLB. Seymour was that type of player. He might not have gotten the stats but he consistently put pressure on QB's or opened a hole for someone else to come in. No one on this current roster can do that which imo is why we couldn't get pressure on QB's since the Seymour trade. *Note - Not saying it was a bad trade at all. I actually liked the trade but we have yet to fill that hole. 
    Posted by PatsEng


    I would ask, what about Prince's game makes you think that he couldn't play S?
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : I would ask, what about Prince's game makes you think that he couldn't play S?
    Posted by mbeaulieu07


    Just a gut feeling I have. I have seen games where they pushed him almost 10yrds off his guy and he had trouble switching gears with his back pedal. It's seems like when there's space he'll decide what to do before the route plays out letting receivers get behind him or he'll drift towards a QB's eyes rather then watching how the routes are being run. In college this pays off but in the Pro's watching a QB's eyes in a deep zone is great unless you start drifting towards the first couple reads then it will open up holes.

    It's nothing that can't be fixed or he couldn't learn but I wouldn't draft a CB with his talent level and try to convert him over to a S with a 17th or lower pick. If I was going to take a CB and try to convert then over to a FS it would be someone like Devon House in the early 3rd, Jalil Brown in the mid rounds, or actually Javes Lewis would be a very interesting possibility in the 5th. He's listed as  CB but played FS at Oregon. Hrm, Lewis is a former teammate of Chung (I know only 1 year but still it was a year) he has performed very well in zone and doesn't shy away from a RB. Isn't the fastest guy in the world but runs high 4.4's low 4.5's. Just don't ask him to cover 1 on 1.

    BTW I wouldn't call Warren a rushing DL. He's a run prevent first then a rushing second. That's what made him and Seymour so special. They would toss the run prevent OLB behind Seymour since they weren't running the ball towards Warren or Wilfork and the rushing OLB behind Warren since you knew that the extra blocker would be on Seymour's side and Warren demanded a dbl team too. If you put a Watt or Jordan across from Warren, even if they don't get the sacks it forces the extra blocker off Warrens side not only opening up the OLB but also letting Warren get free off dbl teams every so often.
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    Question to all: Let's say both Amukamara and Watt are available at either 17 or somewhere between 11 or 17 (a spot that shouldn't require them to give up 28 or 33 if they were willing to trade up). Who do you make a move for and why?  If it's up to me, I say Amukamara (a name that was popular a long time ago in a land far far away, basically before Oakland didn't s*ck this year).  Today, he's currently anywhere from 7-19 on "big boards", but primarily between to 7-9 and like Watt, he's a high character kid that puts in the time to keep himself prepared both physically and mentally and is the epitome of 4 down potential.  Positionally, this kid gives you value at either CB or S, man or zone as well as ST and versatility is the name of the game with BB. He also brings a great combo of size/speed/quicks and instincts.
    Posted by mbeaulieu07



    Move up for neither. (Although i say that with a caveat that I have not looked at anything related to Amuk)

    Watt has a fair enough chance to fall right in NE's lap, if that's who they even like.

    Amuk, IF they thinks he's that good, they would have to take on value alone at 17 because there is a huge drop off from him to others apparently. Not sure if NE agrees that he is that good or not. While, on the other hand, there are a group of players considered close to Watt at DE.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Faucetman. Show Faucetman's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK*** : I'd say Watt. I don't really see Amu as a S and with Bodden and McCourty he'd basically be a 3rd CB. Also when looking at ST you have to realize that with the kick-offs being moved up and Ghost's leg how many returns will there actually be for him to be a gunner? At this point the best way to help the secondary is to improve the pass rush. I saw a stat that said last year opponents QB's averaged well over 5s to throw the ball against the Pats. That's huge. I don't care who is in your secondary if you aren't putting pressure on the QB all coverage will eventually fall apart. If the Pats can get some pressure on QB's and drop that 5+ secs to 3 then I don't even think we need to worry about about our 3rd cb in coverage. Think of all the no name cb's we use to toss out when our front 7 could get QB's to panic. I have always felt the best way to get pressure on a QB starts in the trenches and ripples out. A great DE will get to QB's, collapse a pocket, or open a couple holes for a OLB. Seymour was that type of player. He might not have gotten the stats but he consistently put pressure on QB's or opened a hole for someone else to come in. No one on this current roster can do that which imo is why we couldn't get pressure on QB's since the Seymour trade. *Note - Not saying it was a bad trade at all. I actually liked the trade but we have yet to fill that hole. 
    Posted by PatsEng

    You took the words right out of my mouth.  I was going to say pretty much the same thing.  JJ Watt or Cam Jordan have to be players of interest at the top of the board.  The other big area to look at is OT.  OT may even trump a stud DE because of roster uncertainty.  Keep in mind, we aren't losing these play-off games because of a lack of pass rush alone.  We are also losing them because of Brady being under pressure from teams like the Jets and Ravens.  We need to pass block better. 
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***:
    Question to all: Let's say both Amukamara and Watt are available at either 17 or somewhere between 11 or 17 (a spot that shouldn't require them to give up 28 or 33 if they were willing to trade up). Who do you make a move for and why?  If it's up to me, I say Amukamara (a name that was popular a long time ago in a land far far away, basically before Oakland didn't s*ck this year).  Today, he's currently anywhere from 7-19 on "big boards", but primarily between to 7-9 and like Watt, he's a high character kid that puts in the time to keep himself prepared both physically and mentally and is the epitome of 4 down potential.  Positionally, this kid gives you value at either CB or S, man or zone as well as ST and versatility is the name of the game with BB. He also brings a great combo of size/speed/quicks and instincts.
    Posted by mbeaulieu07


    I'd rather go Watt than Amukamara if forced to trade up. I am with you on drafting another CB early, but not that early and not Amukamara. For Peterson, absolutely would. I think it would require a fairly substantial trade up, possibly higher or as high as Watt. To be completely honest, and I'll probably offend a few here, I don't want to move up for Watt that high either. If I had my choice, we would grab one of the Texas kids in round 2. I like Aaron Williams a bunch, he has some versatility in he could play CB or FS. And as we learned last year, the CB position is just 1 bullet away from the likes of Butler.

    As LOW and other have pointed out, and something that has got me looking at more Watt footage, is, "is he a good fit for NE's scheme?". Can he truely play the 5 tech or are there better players that can be had later in round 1 (Heyward, Wilkerson, Taylor), or even round 2-4 (Jenkins, Guy, etc.)?

    I'm starting to warm up to trading out of 17 down to 20-25 and going after Carimi or Pouncey. Faucet has made a good case for Carimi, where he is versatile enough to play inside or out, and I like having that insurance policy filled by a guy that can get it done, rather than risking Brady's arss on possibly some later, questionable talent.

    I'm still on the DE train, but again, I'm leaning later in round 1. It might even require a trade up from 28, depending on who you want to target. I'm warming on Taylor as well here. Something tells me he gets his off the field issues sorted out and becomes a solid citizen. I've seen some recent interviews and analysis saying that some are confident he won't pose a character problem. If that is the case, I like his size 6'4", 340, runs a 5.14 and has fast feet and great hand use...Of course you also have Heyward and Wilkerson, and then later on with Jarvis Jenkins. To be honest, I'd like to see either Taylor or Heyward go late round 1/early 2 to us, and also pick up Jarvis Jenkins down the line.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Faucetman. Show Faucetman's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    Guys,

    Who do we all see as the best pass blocking OG and OT (R or L) in the draft?

    In the first Jets loss Jason Taylor recorded the only sack, I assume this was against Matt Light.

    In the play-off loss, Ellis had 2 sacks, Pace 1, Pouha 1 and 1 came from Drew Coleman on a safety blitz.  That's 5 of 6 sacks coming from the Jets' DL, 4 if Taylor was coming as an OLB.  Our OL has to improve, they are getting old and slowing down;  Light (33), Kaczur (32), Koppen (31).

    I don't see any value OTs in this draft, no Sebastian Vollmer sitting there late 2nd.
    I think Carimi is the best run blocker of the bunch and would be a beast if we put him on the right side.  I'm starting to think we need to give up on the Watt idea and take either Pouncey or Carimi at 17.  Maybe we can manoeuvre to get both.

    Remember the SB years when we had one of the youngest and best OLs in football?  Madden used to talk about it and how BB was smart to lock these guys up for multiple years.  Well, they aren't young and locked up any more. 

    Gabe Carimi scouting report.

    Pass blocking: Has the elite agility and nimble feet to protect the quarterback's blindside. Very difficult to turn the corner against because of his lateral movement and solid footwork. Also protects the inside lane. Delivers a strong hand punch capable of knocking back an opponent, and is able to recoil and extend. Uses his length to block his man with one hand and knock an edge blitzer off his path with the other. Quick to cut on bubble screens and reverses, though he could get more of his man's legs to be truly effective. Bends at the waist while engaged; usually holds on to prevent secondary rush but will also end up on the ground too often.

    Run blocking: His true strength is as a blocker for the Badger run game. Has strong upper- and lower-body builds despite his height. Plays with leverage against stout defensive ends and tackles on the edge, can get under their pads and churn his legs to move them down or off the line. Effective combo blocker, gets a hand on inside rusher and still manages to push defensive ends and linebackers out of the play on rushing plays designed to go behind him. Leans or bends at the waist to latch on at times and gets shed and loses his balance.

    Mike Pouncey scouting report.

    Pass blocking: Provides a quick initial punch before easing out of his stance. Good balance and lateral agility to mirror the defender. Strong, active hands and long arms allow him to keep his opponent controlled. Can get a little high with his pad level, but shows impressive flexibility and core strength in being able to anchor against a quality bull rush. Struggled early in the year snapping the ball with accuracy out of the shotgun and getting his hands up quickly in pass protection. Has the agility to move back outside to guard.

    Run blocking: Quick off the snap. Latches on, shows very good upper-body strength and lateral agility and can turn the defender away from the ballcarrier. Plays with good pad level and shows some nastiness in his game. Looks to drive his assignment downfield or into the turf.

     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED 2/19 w/ PRE-COMBINE MOCK***

    Faucet, I'm glad you changed your mind about Ingram.  Can't see him at 17, wouldn't mind him at a later pick.  I think if we don't have a reasonable shot at trading up for Watt, then we go for Carimi or Pouncey or Kerrigan at 17... 
     
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