2011 Patriots Draft Options ***THANKS TO ALL WHO CONTRIBUTED!***

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***


    I think Jeremy Beal is a real option in round 2, somewhere in the range ShiningWizard mentioned, and he has the right size to play 3-4 OLB.

    I guess this comes down to a philosophical discussion again...which is, "Would you rather have a stud rush OLB like a Matthews, or a consistent, set the edge kind of guy like Cunningham?".
    With Beal I see a bit more Cunningham and less Matthews (it's not that I love Matthews, I'm just using his name to show the variations in 3-4 OLB's)...So, do we want a little more of the same, or someone that can get after the QB, a faster twitch guy that we'll probably have to burn a 1st or #33 on?
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    Time for an AFC East mockwave


    If you're the type who views the Super Bowl as a necessary speed bump between the Senior Bowl and the NFL scouting combine, then this post is for you.

    Draft season will begin in earnest a few days from now. To get you prepared, let's take a look at mock drafts from some of the experts.

    These are the latest projections from ESPN's Mel Kiper and Todd McShay, the National Football Post's Wes Bunting, CBSSports.com's Rob Rang and Chad Reuter and FoxSports.com's Peter Schrager.



    No. 17 New England Patriots (from Oakland Raiders)
    • Kiper's pick: J.J. Watt, Wisconsin defensive end
    • McShay's pick: Ryan Kerrigan, Purdue defensive end
    • Bunting's pick: J.J. Watt, Wisconsin defensive end
    • Rang's pick: J.J. Watt, Wisconsin defensive end
    • Reuter's pick: Aldon Smith, Missouri outside linebacker
    • Schrager's pick: Cameron Jordan, California pass-rusher
    No. 28 New England Patriots
    • Kiper's pick: Mikel Leshoure, Illinois running back
    • McShay's pick: Mark Ingram, Alabama running back
    • Bunting's pick: Benjamin Ijalana, Villanova tackle
    • Rang's pick: Mikel Leshoure, Illinois running back
    • Reuter's pick: Cameron Heyward, Ohio State defensive end
    • Schrager's pick: Anthony Castonzo, Boston College tackle
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Faucetman. Show Faucetman's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    Found this story about the origin and principles of the Patriots 3-4 system on Wikipedia.  It may come across a little choppy because I removed all the hyperlinks. 

    Fairbanks-Bullough 3-4 defensive system

    The New England Patriots run a modified base 3-4 Chuck Fairbanks-Hank Bullough installed by Bill Belichick. The term 3-4 means that their base formation consists of 3 defensive linemen (defensive end, nose tackle, and defensive end), 4 linebackers (outside "Will" weak side linebacker, middle "Jack" weak side linebacker, middle "Mike" strong side linebacker, and outside "Sam" strong side linebacker), and 4 defensive backs (cornerback, free safety, strong safety, and cornerback).  It is believed that this 3-4 structure gives the defense the greatest amount of flexibility because the linebackers are among the most versatile players on the defense, capable of rushing the quarterback, tackling runners or dropping into coverage. By mixing the roles of their linebackers from play to play, the Patriots defense seeks to cause confusion on the part of opposing offenses. At times the Patriots will also shade their defensive linemen different ways, creating "over" or "under" defenses. "Over" and "under" defenses simply refer to the shift of the defensive linemen to the strong or weak side of the offense, respectively, and the rotation of the linebackers in the opposite direction.

    The "Fairbanks-Bullough" 3-4 system is known as a two gap system, because each of the defensive linemen are required to cover the gaps to both sides of the offensive linemen that try to block them.  Defensive linemen in this system tend to be stouter, as they need to be able to hold their place without being overwhelmed in order to allow the linebackers behind them to make plays. This is the reason that defensive linemen such as Richard Seymour and Vince Wilfork do not always rack up sack and tackle statistics despite their critical importance to the team.

    The system is at times more conservative than certain other defenses currently in vogue in the league, despite the constant threat of its potent linebacker blitz.  The Patriots defensive system generally places an emphasis on physicality and discipline over mobility and risk taking and is sometimes characterized as a "bend but do not break defense".

    History

    The 3-4 defense was originally devised by Bud Wilkinson at the University of Oklahoma in the late 1940s.  Former Patriots and Oklahoma coach Chuck Fairbanks is credited with being a major figure in first bringing the 3-4 defense to the NFL in 1974.  It is unclear if the Patriots under Fairbanks or the Houston Oilers under Bum Phillips were the first team to bring the 3-4 defense to the NFL.

    Patriots defensive coordinator Hank Bullough made significant further innovations to the system.  Parcells was linebackers coach under Ron Erhardt as head coach of the Patriots in 1980 (after Fairbanks left for Colorado in 1978 and Bullough lost out on the head coaching position). When Parcells returned to the Giants as defensive coordinator under Ray Perkins in 1981, he brought the 3-4 defense with him.

    Bill Belichick was initially exposed to the 3-4 defense while working as an assistant under Red Miller, head coach of the Denver Broncos and a former Patriots offensive coordinator under Fairbanks.  Joe Collier was the defensive coordinator under Red Miller at the time, and his orange crush defense was very successful at stifling opposing offenses. The Broncos had decided to adopt the 3-4 in 1977. Bill Belichick subsequently refined his understanding of the 3-4 as a linebackers coach and defensive coordinator under Parcells with the Giants. Belichick returned the 3-4 defense back to New England when he become coach of the team in 2000.  Romeo Crennel subsequently became defensive coordinator for the team.

    In a 2007 press conference Belichick said the following of Fairbanks: "I think Chuck has had a tremendous influence on the league as well as this organization in terms of nomenclature and terminology and those kinds of things. I'm sure Chuck could walk in and look at our playbook and probably 80 percent of the plays are the same terminology that he used - whether it be formations or coverages or pass protections. We were sitting there talking yesterday and he was saying, 'How much 60 protection are you guys using? How much 80 are you using?' All of the stuff that was really the fundamentals of his system are still in place here even, again, to the way we call formations and plays and coverages and some of our individual calls within a call, a certain adjustment or things that Red (Miller) and Hank (Bullough) and Ron (Erhardt) and those guys used when they were here".

    Other teams running similar defensive systems

    Bill Parcells ran the Fairbanks-Bullough 3-4 defensive system during his coaching years.  Many teams coached by members of the Parcells-Belichick coaching tree currently run similar defensive systems, such as the University of Alabama under Nick Saban and the Cleveland Browns under Eric Mangini. 

    Comparison to other 3-4 systems

    The "Phillips 3-4", a one-gap version of the 3-4, was also brought into the league by Bum Phillips, head coach of the Houston Oilers in the 1970s. The Phillips 3-4 defense is currently run by the San Diego Chargers as well as the Dallas Cowboys formerly coached by Wade Phillips, the son of Bum Phillips. Wade Phillips replaced Joe Collier as defensive coordinator of the Denver Broncos in 1989. The modern Phillips 3-4 is largely a one gap 3-4 system, meaning that the defensive linemen are often only responsible for one gap between the offensive linemen. The linemen can afford to be more aggressive because they receive more support from the linebackers in performing their roles. This system generally prefers relatively lighter, more agile lineman better able to perform aggressive slants, loops and gap charges in order to directly attempt to sack the quarterback and make tackles.
    The 3-4 zone blitz defense was developed by Dick LeBeau as defensive coordinator of the Cincinnati Bengals. It commonly calls upon linemen to be mobile enough to drop back into zone coverage in place of blitzing linebackers.  Elements of the 3-4 zone blitz defense have been incorporated over time into the modern Phillips 3-4.

    Philosophy

    The New England Patriots are noted for the following characteristics:

    ·       
    Their self-critical, perfectionist, and militaristic approach;
    ·        
    Their emphasis on team, equality among players and lack of individual ego;
    ·         Their strong work ethic, intelligence and high level of focus and preparation for each individual game;
    ·         Their versatile players, able to play multiple positions;
    ·         Their multiple schemes intended to take advantage of their opponent's weaknesses.

    For example, in Super Bowl XXXVI, the Patriots defense used an aggressive bump and run nickel and dime package instead of their base 3-4 to disrupt the timing of the highly touted Air Coryell system employed by the Rams under Mike Martz (also known as “The Greatest Show on Turf”).  This modifiable aspect of the Patriots system is in stark contrast to simpler systems like the Tampa 2 defense, in which the same scheme is often run repeatedly with the emphasis being on execution rather than on flexibility.
    In his book "How Football Explains America", Sal Paolantonio noted the many parallels between the Patriots philosophy and military training taught at West Point.  This is likely the result of Bill Parcells' having coached at Army for four years and Bill Belichick's close ties with the Naval Academy.
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    Nice article Faucet.  Here is my 1st mock of the season.  Feedback is encouraged and welcome.

    #17 J.J. Watt-DE-Wisconsin

    A tough and smart BB type football player.  One of very few prospects who can be a 3-down DE in our 3-4 defense.  Cam Jordan is also an option, but for whatever reason, I think Watt is BB's choice.  Plus, all Pats 1st round picks have last names starting in M or W.

    #28 Anthony Castonzo-OT-Boston College

    A local BC kid-from a school that produces very good linemen.  Castonzo and Vollmer are two big tackles, who with the help of Scar, anchor our line for years to come.  Castonzo could start right away, but might benefit if he spends a year or two backing up Matt Light.

    #33 Danny Watkins-OG-Baylor

    Yes, I know he's 26, but the talent is very much there.  He was the best interior lineman at the combine, and would have a shot at the 1st round if he wasn't so old.  He has good character, and is an all-round solid guard.  BB has always been the one to take the players others avoid-Watkins has tremendous talent and should start right away.  BB seems like the exact type of coach who would ignore his age.

    #60 Brooks Reed-DE/OLB-Arizona

    Seems like the perfect Patriot, no?  A motor that never stops running, and a very good pass rusher as well.  He reminds many scouts of Clay Matthews, who the Pats passed on.  If we got pressure on Mark Sanchez, we win the game, drafting Brooks Reed will help to fix the problem.

    #74 Randall Cobb-WR/RB/QB/KR/PR-Kentucky

    See all the slashes?  I thought so, Cobb is exactly the versatile type of player BB wants on his team.  Cobb will primarily help our WR crew, adding another weapon for Brady, but can also help the team in other ways.  He opens up so many opportunities for our already dangerous offense.  This kid holds the SEC record for all-purpose yards-a stat that is sure to catch BB's eye.

    #92 Roy Helu Jr-HB-Nebraska

    Probably the best running back in Senior Bowl practices.  The Pats need some depth at HB, and nobody is a better rounded back than Helu.  He can catch, and should help diversify our offense-providing another threat in addition to Green-Ellis and Woodhead.

    #124 Owen Marecic-FB/ILB-Stanford

    A solid blocker, and special teams stand out.  Again has the versatility that BB craves.  He is hard working and truly fits the mold of a Patriots player.

    #140 Jalil Brown-CB-Colorado

    Probably won't last this long after his Senior Bowl so we might have to trade up.  Still, Brown is a god, underrated CB who should help shore up a weak CB depth chart.

    #168 Nathan Enderle-QB-Idaho

    t's always good business to develop QB prospects, besides we need some competition for Hoyer in camp.  Enderle is a accurate passer and good decision maker.  He plays in a pro style offense, so he should be NFL ready as a backup. May never be a starter, but thats what they said about Brady!

    I don't believe we have a 7th round pick
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Faucetman. Show Faucetman's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    I think personnel wise we are lacking the prototypical 34 DEs and athletic and fast rush OLBs who can do all three things well; rush, cover and set the edge.  We are also lacking excellent cover safeties.  Chung is good in run support but he lacks coverage skills.  Sanders and Meriweather are average in run support and coverage skills.  At times Meriweather can be great and he can put up good INT numbers but just as often he takes bad angles and misses tackles.  Our DL on a whole is slow and sluggish.  This to me is the problem with our current personnel in being able to execute the historical Patriots 3-4. 

    In looking at our secondary, we have good cover corners in McCourty and Bodden but we don't have that big physical safety that can not only play in the box in run support but also cover the athletic TE in the slot.  It's the lack of versatility at the safety position, especially strong safety that allows other teams to exploit us.  For instance, if Chung is in there, other teams will look to pass.  Basically, we are missing Rodney Harrison, plain and simple.  I think BB has been trying to find the next Rodney Harrison ever since he retired.  The second problem is we got a grand total of 1 sack from our secondary and that came from McCourty.  Now maybe we didn't call many safety or corner blitzes but in years past we used to send a safety once in awhile but not one sack from a safety all year.

    At MLB we have two problems as I see them.  Spikes is too one-dimensional.  He's a run stuffer only.  He lacks even decent speed to lend in pass protection.  He is a two-down player but that phrase really means nothing in that every down could be a passing down.  He's really a goal line or short yardage player.  Spikes being in there probably attracts more passing plays.  Mayo is the perfect ILB but we need another one like him.  Guyton has speed to burn but doesn't effectively stuff the run consistently.  Now Dane Fletcher could be someone who could emerge at MLB in that he runs in the 4.62 range, seems tough in the run game and has speed to cover.

    At OLB we don't have any speed.  Cunningham has the size but lacks the speed to rush and mobility to effectively drop into coverage for any period of time.  Cunningham ran a 4.86 at his combine where his teammate, Carlos Dunlap ran a 4.68.  The result?  Carlos Dunlap had 9.5 sacks in his rookie year with CIN compare to 1 sack for Cunningham.  I strongly advocated for Dunlap last year, character aside.  Ninkovich had a decent year but he ran a 4.91at his combine in 2006.  TBC had a great 2009 but then turned in a sad 5 sack performance this year.  We got just 10 sacks from our 3 main OLBs, Cunningham, Ninkovich and Tully Banta-Cain.  This is where the sacks are supposed to come from.

    At DL BB hasn't been drafting the size/speed type players we've come to expect for a NE 3-4 D.  However, in contrast to our MLB, the DL turned in 16.5 sacks as a unit.  Normally you don't expect a lot of sacks and tackles from a NE 3-4 DL.  You expect them to hold the point, push the pile back and open lanes for the LBs.  We all know Wilfork is the best 34 NT in the business.  Ty Warren fits the mold and is steady when healthy. Deaderick is actually very athletic for a big man.  He ran a 5.08 compared to Suh's 5.03 last year.  If you look at the other guys, Brace should be a backup NT to spell VW.  He was slow as molasses at his Combine running a 5.48 which was the slowest time of any DL.  He also had the slowest 20 and was among the slowest in the cone and shuttle.  We drafted him only because Wilfork was threatening to hold out.  Playing him at DE is playing him out-of-position.  Kyle Love and Myron Pryor are 6-1, 310 a piece.  This makes them better suited to play 4-3 DT which is okay if we are in your sub package.  Problem is they aren't versatile or explosive enough to be 3-4 DEs.  We need DLs that we can keep on the field, move the 3-4 DE inside and bring the rush OLB up to the line or fake doing it.  Nobody cares if Cunningham and Ninkovich are threatening to blitz because most times the OT can handle it on his own.

    In summary, we need a Cameron Jordan or JJ Watt type DE who is big, physical, plays with a mean streak and above all, is explosive.  We need 1 or 2 fast and big OLBs or at a minimum one that is fast and experienced in rushing the QB.  We need a 3 down MLB next to Mayo that can stay in on every situation.  This could be Fletcher, or a bulked up Guyton or a draft pick.  We need a tall, physical SS that can cover the TE in the slot and stay with a WR downfield.  The key to our defense is being able to disguise what we are doing.  With two many one dimensional/situational players, it makes it very easy for the offense to audible at the LOS to exploit the package we have on the field.  I'll be back with some ideas of who in the draft may solve these problems.
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15*** : I heard it on the radio here in Dallas when Phillips was announced as the D Coordinator in Houston. The press here raised a lot of questions as to whether or not Houston had the personnel to play 3-4, so maybe the transition may not be a drastic one...meaning in 1 year. Don't know. Given Jordan's value and his recent performance, I think he is going to go before 17, and I think we'll see Watt there at 17 if we want him. The thing is if you look at Watt as compared to some of the other guys mentioned here (Wilkerson,Taylor, etc.) and the fact that we played more of  sub defense a higher % of the time in 2010, do we reconsider the 3-4 DE position, or do we still look for a stud 3-4 DE? I guess my feeling is with a guy like Jordan or Watt, we could plug those guys in (especially Jordan) in a 4 man line pretty effectively. I think it also begs stronger consideration for the CB position, and possibly an OLB that is not 3-4 typical, but rather more 4-3 like guy given our sub packages, unless you feel we are good here with Guyton and Fletcher. Reiss article above is interesting...i wonder if BB reconsiders a players measurables and system based on the success of guys like Matthews and Woodley?
    Posted by PatsLifer[/QUOTE]

    if not, it appears he should consider it.

     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15*** : You make some good points, last year we discussed the increase in sub packages (believe it was 51%) this year reportertly is 57% of snaps were in sub packages. I've been one to vote for a CB (Bradon Harris) with the 17th although I don't think they need to do that but do think a nickle type CB will be taken. I feel they have 3 good CB with Bodden (right) McCourty (left) Arrington (nickle) after that is how can Butler bounce back.  The kid has a ton of talent but his confidence is crap right now.  If he manages to live up to expectations, some CBs takes a while the need is not there anymore if he doesn't there's a big need so Chung is not forced into a CB role.  My thinking is if Bodden or DM get hurt how good is the group behind them and back to the Butler argument.  Did not mention Wilhite because I believe he'll be gone. Don't think Brandon Harris is in play but in the 3rd or 4th I would take a chance on these guys. Chimdi Chekwa 5'11" 190 - Good cover CB who also can play zone, he has good size and speed.  He had some injuries but manage to return from them see how he does in workouts. Rashad Carmichael 5'10" 185 - (he could rise to be a 2nd rdr) he's extremely fast, productive CB can play both man or zone although he's not too good at press coverage.  This guy is also a return guy who could help in STs. Curtis Marsh 6'0" 200 - He has not played CB for too long but has shown abilitiy at the position.  It might cost him to drop in the draft for late rounds but he's worth a look.  Good against the run, a physical CB.  Does bit on fakes at times but will improve with experience. Jalil Brown 6'0" 202 - Saw him at the Senior Bowl and I came out impressed.  He didn't give up too much, was in the WRs pocket all the time and made plays on the ball.  Those are 4 guys who I would look at in the 3rd and 4th.  There are a ton of big CBs, I don't think I remember so many 5'11+ CBs in one draft top to bottom including a couple of guys that list at 6'2 200. 
    Posted by Pats7393[/QUOTE]

    thanks pats7393,
       i dont think i would consider arrington a goo defensive back. i think he has physical abilities, but has not learned to be an effective cornerback. he just doesnt have the skills. and as we have learned from some ne defensive backs, he may never. it's a risk. how cornerback's get to this level, especially ones with talent, and haven't learned how to play the position yet is beyond me. i would keep arrington, but get a draft pick or f.a. to hedge my bet (someone who is fast and who can play cb well).
      

     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    [QUOTE]I really liked Beal early, but after his Senior Bowl practice/game performance, I'm a bit reluctant. He really struggled per several analysts...anyone on this board see something different? In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15*** :
    Posted by mcboyd22[/QUOTE]

    i had been hearing the same, thing down on beal.
    maybe there is a reason. i'm sure it will be investigated by any organization interested
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    [QUOTE]brdreu, great story, thanks for sharing.  this may alter my thinking a bit.
    Posted by Faucetman[/QUOTE]

    sure faucet,
    glad to be of service

    cb

     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    sorry,
    looks like i'm up here as brdbreu and cbdam.
    my apologies. think i've got an automatic sign in and cptr remembering an old sign in name where i forgot the password
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    [QUOTE]http://www.patriots.com/news/index.cfm?ac=generalnewsdetail&pid=47513&pcid=41 &cp Ask PFW: (some draft talk)       By Andy Hart, Patriots Football Weekly  
    Posted by Rocky[/QUOTE]

    hey rocky,
    thanks. looks like  he has some of the same thoughts that i and a few others have been saying:

    "I do think the Patriots need to go the extra mile to get a pass rusher this offseason. If that’s free agency, then pay the extra dollar. If that’s the draft, then trade up to get the guy you think is the best. Miller is obviously getting a lot of buzz as one of the draft’s elite edge rushers. I’m still interested in Robert Quinn. Hali or Woodley would be good candidates in free agency. I’d have to say I’m most intrigued by Quinn, but Hali’s knowledge of a similar system also makes a lot of sense. Any of the four would likely make the pass rush better. It can’t get much worse."
    Andy Hart
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    [QUOTE]I think Jeremy Beal is a real option in round 2, somewhere in the range ShiningWizard mentioned, and he has the right size to play 3-4 OLB. I guess this comes down to a philosophical discussion again...which is, "Would you rather have a stud rush OLB like a Matthews, or a consistent, set the edge kind of guy like Cunningham?". With Beal I see a bit more Cunningham and less Matthews (it's not that I love Matthews, I'm just using his name to show the variations in 3-4 OLB's)...So, do we want a little more of the same, or someone that can get after the QB, a faster twitch guy that we'll probably have to burn a 1st or #33 on?
    Posted by PatsLifer[/QUOTE]

    patslifer
    without a pass rush, our defense will not get much better; no matter how many steady guys we draft.
    cbdam/brdbreu
     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    [QUOTE]Time for an AFC East mockwave By Tim Graham (ESPN) If you're the type who views the Super Bowl as a necessary speed bump between the Senior Bowl and the NFL scouting combine, then this post is for you. Draft season will begin in earnest a few days from now. To get you prepared, let's take a look at mock drafts from some of the experts. These are the latest projections from ESPN's Mel Kiper and Todd McShay , the National Football Post's Wes Bunting, CBSSports.com's Rob Rang and Chad Reuter and FoxSports.com's Peter Schrager. No. 17 New England Patriots (from Oakland Raiders) Kiper's pick: J.J. Watt, Wisconsin defensive end McShay's pick: Ryan Kerrigan, Purdue defensive end Bunting's pick: J.J. Watt, Wisconsin defensive end Rang's pick: J.J. Watt, Wisconsin defensive end Reuter's pick: Aldon Smith, Missouri outside linebacker Schrager's pick: Cameron Jordan, California pass-rusher No. 28 New England Patriots Kiper's pick: Mikel Leshoure, Illinois running back McShay's pick: Mark Ingram, Alabama running back Bunting's pick: Benjamin Ijalana, Villanova tackle Rang's pick: Mikel Leshoure, Illinois running back Reuter's pick: Cameron Heyward, Ohio State defensive end Schrager's pick: Anthony Castonzo, Boston College tackle
    Posted by Rocky[/QUOTE]

    i like some of the reasoning faucet has given. therefore i think, if we do not move up, an olb pass rushing beast like houston at 17 because there are more de's than top pass rushing olb's this draft. so theoretically we can get a good de later if houston moves up the board. that said, i also think we need a 1a top(carimi, costanzo, wisnewski) and 1 tier 1b o linemen (ie moffit).

    i wouldnt be too disappointed, if we dont move up, if we came away with aldon smith or cameron jordon at 17.

    bottom line, we gotta rush the passer for the d to improve. we gotta protect brady/ get some stud o lineman along with keeping mankins-sign him!, if we want him to be standing the next 2 years

    my full draft thoughts are about 20-25 pages back.

    peace
    cbdam/brdbreu

     
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    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    [QUOTE]I think personnel wise we are lacking the prototypical 34 DEs and athletic and fast rush OLBs who can do all three things well; rush, cover and set the edge.  We are also lacking excellent cover safeties.  Chung is good in run support but he lacks coverage skills.  Sanders and Meriweather are average in run support and coverage skills.  At times Meriweather can be great and he can put up good INT numbers but just as often he takes bad angles and misses tackles.  Our DL on a whole is slow and sluggish.  This to me is the problem with our current personnel in being able to execute the historical Patriots 3-4.  In looking at our secondary , we have good cover corners in McCourty and Bodden but we don't have that big physical safety that can not only play in the box in run support but also cover the athletic TE in the slot.  It's the lack of versatility at the safety position, especially strong safety that allows other teams to exploit us.  For instance, if Chung is in there, other teams will look to pass.  Basically, we are missing Rodney Harrison, plain and simple.  I think BB has been trying to find the next Rodney Harrison ever since he retired.  The second problem is we got a grand total of 1 sack from our secondary and that came from McCourty.  Now maybe we didn't call many safety or corner blitzes but in years past we used to send a safety once in awhile but not one sack from a safety all year. At MLB we have two problems as I see them.  Spikes is too one-dimensional.  He's a run stuffer only.  He lacks even decent speed to lend in pass protection.  He is a two-down player but that phrase really means nothing in that every down could be a passing down.  He's really a goal line or short yardage player.  Spikes being in there probably attracts more passing plays.  Mayo is the perfect ILB but we need another one like him.  Guyton has speed to burn but doesn't effectively stuff the run consistently.  Now Dane Fletcher could be someone who could emerge at MLB in that he runs in the 4.62 range, seems tough in the run game and has speed to cover. At OLB we don't have any speed.  Cunningham has the size but lacks the speed to rush and mobility to effectively drop into coverage for any period of time.  Cunningham ran a 4.86 at his combine where his teammate, Carlos Dunlap ran a 4.68.  The result?  Carlos Dunlap had 9.5 sacks in his rookie year with CIN compare to 1 sack for Cunningham.  I strongly advocated for Dunlap last year, character aside.  Ninkovich had a decent year but he ran a 4.91 at his combine in 2006.  TBC had a great 2009 but then turned in a sad 5 sack performance this year.  We got just 10 sacks from our 3 main OLBs, Cunningham, Ninkovich and Tully Banta-Cain.  This is where the sacks are supposed to come from. At DL BB hasn't been drafting the size/speed type players we've come to expect for a NE 3-4 D.  However, in contrast to our MLB, the DL turned in 16.5 sacks as a unit.  Normally you don't expect a lot of sacks and tackles from a NE 3-4 DL.  You expect them to hold the point, push the pile back and open lanes for the LBs.  We all know Wilfork is the best 34 NT in the business.  Ty Warren fits the mold and is steady when healthy. Deaderick is actually very athletic for a big man.  He ran a 5.08 compared to Suh's 5.03 last year.  If you look at the other guys, Brace should be a backup NT to spell VW.  He was slow as molasses at his Combine running a 5.48 which was the slowest time of any DL.  He also had the slowest 20 and was among the slowest in the cone and shuttle.  We drafted him only because Wilfork was threatening to hold out.  Playing him at DE is playing him out-of-position.  Kyle Love and Myron Pryor are 6-1, 310 a piece.  This makes them better suited to play 4-3 DT which is okay if we are in your sub package.  Problem is they aren't versatile or explosive enough to be 3-4 DEs.  We need DLs that we can keep on the field, move the 3-4 DE inside and bring the rush OLB up to the line or fake doing it.  Nobody cares if Cunningham and Ninkovich are threatening to blitz because most times the OT can handle it on his own. In summary, we need a Cameron Jordan or JJ Watt type DE who is big, physical, plays with a mean streak and above all, is explosive.  We need 1 or 2 fast and big OLBs or at a minimum one that is fast and experienced in rushing the QB.  We need a 3 down MLB next to Mayo that can stay in on every situation.  This could be Fletcher, or a bulked up Guyton or a draft pick.  We need a tall, physical SS that can cover the TE in the slot and stay with a WR downfield.  The key to our defense is being able to disguise what we are doing.  With two many one dimensional/situational players, it makes it very easy for the offense to audible at the LOS to exploit the package we have on the field.  I'll be back with some ideas of who in the draft may solve these problems.
    Posted by Faucetman[/QUOTE]


    hi faucet,
     i agree with your analysis
    and have made similar comments
    i dont think guyton or meriweather are starters i want on my team. they both are critically lacking.

    for now
    peace

    cbdam/brdbreu
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from mbeaulieu07. Show mbeaulieu07's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    Faucet, great breakdown.  Your summary ties in well with the last mock I posted, below are my comments in red: In summary, we need a Cameron Jordan or JJ Watt type DE who is big, physical, plays with a mean streak and above all, is explosive. 

    Agreed and the second wave could be Wilkerson, Heyward, Ballard or Taylor (assuming the character checks out). That kid looks big and quick and appears to be a versatile fit for NE’s scheme.
      

    We need 1 or 2 fast and big OLBs or at a minimum one that is fast and experienced in rushing the QB. 

    I had Reed and/or Keiser.  

    We need a 3 down MLB next to Mayo that can stay in on every situation.  This could be Fletcher, or a bulked up Guyton or a draft pick.   

    I love Fletcher as a break out player for next year, even started a thread about him, he might even provide some impact off the edge.  I also had Herz in said mock and think he has the ability to play both inside and out.  Further on Herz, for all the negative talk from draft pundits about his performance in SB practice, I though he looked active and aggressive in the game.  He showed some ability to stick with TE/RB in coverage and was always around the football.  I don’t think he’s back to his 2008 form, but I think he’ll continue to improve as he gets stronger and stronger and am still on him as an option at some point in Rd 2. 

    We need a tall, physical SS that can cover the TE in the slot and stay with a WR downfield.  I had Robert Sands, though I want to check Quinton Carter (you or someone else has brought him up before) out further as by my research, he is a smart/instinctive kid with  a good nose for the ball, takes good angles and tackles securely with the ability to thump, most things that Meri is not. 

    The key to our defense is being able to disguise what we are doing.  With two many one dimensional/situational players, it makes it very easy for the offense to audible at the LOS to exploit the package we have on the field.  I'll be back with some ideas of who in the draft may solve these problems. 


    As for the OL, I think this draft presents a great chance to upgrade at OG, with 6 possible targets in Rd’s 2-4 (Pouncey, Wisniewski, Hudson, Moffitt, Watkins, Henry).

    Overall a good depth draft for positions of need (DE/OLB/OG).

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from looneyman. Show looneyman's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    [QUOTE]I'd like to throw Jeremy Beal's name into the mix.  He's got ideal size for the position at 6'3 267lbs and is a very instinctive player.  Probably the best all around prospect at OLB for 3-4 teams.  He's got a great motor and is very strong at the point of attack.  Although he's not an elite pass rusher with a wide array of moves like V. Miller or Quinn, he can collapse a pocket in a hurray and sets the edge in the running game with his power and strength.  What impresses me most though is his ability to drop back into coverage and play in space.  He's got very fluid hips and good closing speed.  Guys like Aldon Smith, Robert Quinn and Von Miller may get more hype, but Beal could have more impact right away because there's less of learning curve with him.  He's coming into the league having already played primarily out of a 2 pt stance as on OLB.  However, he adds value in that he could play on 3rd down as DE in a nickel sub package
    Posted by ShiningWizard[/QUOTE]

    I am from Stoneham but live in Oklahoma. I have seen Beal the last 2 years and he is a BB type of guy. Beal has a non stop motor who has a knack for making big plays. Beal has had injury issues but when he is healthy he can be a force.
    Put Beal on one side & Cunningham on the other and the Pats will pressure the qb. I think Beal could get 6-8 Sacks in the NFL As on OLB.
    Not sure if pick 33 is to high for Beal but he will not be around late in the 2nd round. I say with pick 17 & 28 Draft a DE & the best available guard or center.
    and grab Beal with 33, if any coach can reach for a player it is BB.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Patsfan038. Show Patsfan038's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    Mike Reiss mentioned that Pats were 57% in sub package. That should eliminate the need for a prototypical 34 OLB with 6-5, 260 and long arms. We can take a look at "lamar woodley' type player.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from mbeaulieu07. Show mbeaulieu07's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    [QUOTE]Mike Reiss mentioned that Pats were 57% in sub package. That should eliminate the need for a prototypical 34 OLB with 6-5, 260 and long arms. We can take a look at "lamar woodley' type player.
    Posted by Patsfan038[/QUOTE]

    I'm not sure "57% in sub package" necessarily translates into "not in a 3-4", I think it means that they're only in their base alignment 43% of the time while the rest of the time they're in some flavor of a 3-4 with nickle or dime packages etc., or another defensive front.  There is always a need for a 6-5 260 OLB as that is BB's preference for the position however I'm sure he'd be just as happy to land an established/proven edge guy like Woodley, who himself is around 265.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from mbeaulieu07. Show mbeaulieu07's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    [QUOTE]Does anyone actually see Cameron Heyward from Ohio State as a 1st round pick? I can see him available in the top half of the second round easily where bill would most likely trade back on the 33rd pick and still be able to pick him up. Comments?
    Posted by APpats21[/QUOTE]

    AP,
    IMO, there is a premium on kids that project as fits at 3-4 DE (which should raise his stock a bit) so I could see him going anywhere from the the back end of Rd 1 to the first half of Rd 2.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Patsfan038. Show Patsfan038's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15*** : I'm not sure "57% in sub package" necessarily translates into "not in a 3-4", I think it means that they're only in their base alignment 43% of the time while the rest of the time they're in some flavor of a 3-4 with nickle or dime packages etc., or another defensive front.  There is always a need for a 6-5 260 OLB as that is BB's preference for the position however I'm sure he'd be just as happy to land an established/proven edge guy like Woodley, who himself is around 265.
    Posted by mbeaulieu07[/QUOTE]
    Good point mb. I personally feel that BB is very rigid with his 34 OLB standards. Top OLB in NFL right now may not have the prototypical size that coah prefers. I think Demarcus Ware is the only one in that mould. James Harrison, Lamaar Woodley, CLay Matthews all are not 6-4. Maybe BB should go by the game tape and not by their size. But what do i know :p I am just playing armchair GM during my coffee breal :-p


     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Faucetman. Show Faucetman's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    [QUOTE]Nice article Faucet.  Here is my 1st mock of the season.  Feedback is encouraged and welcome. #17 J.J. Watt-DE-Wisconsin A tough and smart BB type football player.  One of very few prospects who can be a 3-down DE in our 3-4 defense.  Cam Jordan is also an option, but for whatever reason, I think Watt is BB's choice.  Plus, all Pats 1st round picks have last names starting in M or W. #28 Anthony Castonzo-OT-Boston College A local BC kid-from a school that produces very good linemen.  Castonzo and Vollmer are two big tackles, who with the help of Scar, anchor our line for years to come.  Castonzo could start right away, but might benefit if he spends a year or two backing up Matt Light. #33 Danny Watkins-OG-Baylor Yes, I know he's 26, but the talent is very much there.  He was the best interior lineman at the combine, and would have a shot at the 1st round if he wasn't so old.  He has good character, and is an all-round solid guard.  BB has always been the one to take the players others avoid-Watkins has tremendous talent and should start right away.  BB seems like the exact type of coach who would ignore his age. #60 Brooks Reed-DE/OLB-Arizona Seems like the perfect Patriot, no?  A motor that never stops running, and a very good pass rusher as well.  He reminds many scouts of Clay Matthews, who the Pats passed on.  If we got pressure on Mark Sanchez, we win the game, drafting Brooks Reed will help to fix the problem. #74 Randall Cobb-WR/RB/QB/KR/PR-Kentucky See all the slashes?  I thought so, Cobb is exactly the versatile type of player BB wants on his team.  Cobb will primarily help our WR crew, adding another weapon for Brady, but can also help the team in other ways.  He opens up so many opportunities for our already dangerous offense.  This kid holds the SEC record for all-purpose yards-a stat that is sure to catch BB's eye. #92 Roy Helu Jr-HB-Nebraska Probably the best running back in Senior Bowl practices.  The Pats need some depth at HB, and nobody is a better rounded back than Helu.  He can catch, and should help diversify our offense-providing another threat in addition to Green-Ellis and Woodhead. #124 Owen Marecic-FB/ILB-Stanford A solid blocker, and special teams stand out.  Again has the versatility that BB craves.  He is hard working and truly fits the mold of a Patriots player. #140 Jalil Brown-CB-Colorado Probably won't last this long after his Senior Bowl so we might have to trade up.  Still, Brown is a god, underrated CB who should help shore up a weak CB depth chart. #168 Nathan Enderle-QB-Idaho t's always good business to develop QB prospects, besides we need some competition for Hoyer in camp.  Enderle is a accurate passer and good decision maker.  He plays in a pro style offense, so he should be NFL ready as a backup. May never be a starter, but thats what they said about Brady! I don't believe we have a 7th round pick
    Posted by titletownfan[/QUOTE]
    Hey titletown, how's it going?  Nice mock.  We definitely like a lot of the same players.  Watt being there at 17 is a 50/50 proposition but love the pick.  If he's on the board, I'd pull the trigger on him because SD at 18 likely will.  SD may even move ahead of us to get him. 

    I don't think Castonzo will make it to 28 because I think he's the most NFL ready LT in the draft.  It would take Solder, Carimi, Sherrod and possibly Smith to go ahead of him for him to slide to 28, IMO.  Even though he will be 27, I like the Danny Watkins pick.  He could be the best guard in the draft.  Most people would put Pouncey and Wisniewski ahead of him but I like Watkins.  Because he played OT in college he would give us emergency depth on the edges where the other two give us depth at center where we already have depth in Connolly and Wendell.  I think we should trade down to the early 40s and land him there. 

    Cobb could be the next Troy Brown, great character/leader and does everything.  He might end up going higher than this.  Brooks Reed has quickly become a fan favorite on here.  60 seems to be the right value spot for him.  He can bring the heat, but can he stand up and cover?  We will definitely be watching him closely at the Combine.  Marecic is another fan favorite.  I've mocked him plenty myself but lately I've been wondering how we'd use him differently than Hernandez; as a lead blocker in short yardage would seem to be his only advantage over Hernandez.  The Brown kid from Colorado probably worked himself into the early 4th round but good first mock, I like it. 
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from zeitgeist49. Show zeitgeist49's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In  reading  many  of  the  posts  over  the  past  few  weeks, I  think  many  PATS  fans  have  our  DL  over-rated  and  in  general  have  our  defense  over-rated.  OUR  DEFENSE  WAS  HORRIBLE  LAST  YEAR !  It  gave  up  the  highest  percentage  of  third  down  conversions  in  the  league.  And  although  they  were  adept  at  getting  turnovers, there  was  zero  pass  rush.  Since  05, if  the  PATS  had  the  Steeler  defense, they  probably  would  have  won  two  more  Superbowls.  Defense,  with  few  exceptions,  wins  in  the  playoffs.  After  the  04  superbowl, BB  was  known  as  a  defensive  genius.  However, since  05, the  defense  has  been  horrible.  The  PATS, with  Brady, probably  have  a  3  year  window.  It  would  be  a  mistake  for  the  PATS  to  trade  down  in  this  year's  draft.  They  need  help  on  defense  right  away.  
        Also, Mankins  will  be  lost, Light  is  over-rated  and  Neal  will  retire.  I  see  the  PATS  biggest  needs  as :  1) DL   Pick  atleast  one  of  Clayborn, Jordan, Heywood  or  Watt.  2) OL  Pick  Wisiewski, Solder, Pouncey  or  Ijalana  and  sign  a  quality  FA.  3)  OLB  Kerrigan  or  Jordan. 
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from mbeaulieu07. Show mbeaulieu07's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15*** : Good point mb. I personally feel that BB is very rigid with his 34 OLB standards. Top OLB in NFL right now may not have the prototypical size that coah prefers. I think Demarcus Ware is the only one in that mould. James Harrison, Lamaar Woodley, CLay Matthews all are not 6-4. Maybe BB should go by the game tape and not by their size. But what do i know :p I am just playing armchair GM during my coffee breal :-p
    Posted by Patsfan038[/QUOTE]

    That's the fun part!

    He did take Jermaine Cunningham in Rd 2 last year and he was 6033 266 at the combine so he is showing a willingness to be more flexible on the height preference as long as they're around 260 and he generally has no problem with acquiring 6-2/6-3 edge guys through free agency (Adalius, Rosevelt, Nink etc.).  While he drafted TBC originally, he was a late round pick though he did re-acquire him. 
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Rocky. Show Rocky's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    I like this guys attitude!

    JJ Watt
    Just a reminder on Signing Day, take the Star Rankings with a grain of salt. The hardest workers will be the best players. Period.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Faucetman. Show Faucetman's posts

    Re: 2011 Patriots Draft Options ***UPDATED MOCK 1/15***

    Okay, so here are the options as I see them.  I put a rough idea of where they might get drafted and I didn't not consider their character, just their football skills. 

    3-4 OLB:  Von Miller 6-3, 237, 4.56 (7); Robert Quinn 6-5, 268, 4.64; (9), Ryan Kerrigan 6-4, 255, 4.82 (12); Aldon Smith 6-4, 258, 4.69 (17); Akeem Ayers 6-4, 255, 4.68 (20); Justin Houston 6-3, 258, 4.68(28); Jabaal Sheard 6-3, 260, 4.76 (40); Mark Herzlich 6-4, 250, 4.75 (55); KJ Wright 6-3, 246, 4.63 (58); Brooks Reed 6-3, 257, 4.73 (60); Dontay Moch 6-2, 229, 4.38 (74); Jeremy Beal 6-2, 268, 4.79 (80); Sam Acho 6-2, 257, 4.72 (85); and Pernell McPhee 6-3, 274, 4.76. 

    If we want the best, we have to hope Von Miller gets past BUF (3), ARI (6), CLE (7) and SF (8) as all are 3-4 teams in need of an OLB.  If Houston is moving to a 3-4 they could be looking at Miller at 11.  If they go a different direction such as Jordan, Miller could fall all the way to us since DAL is rumored to be taking an OT at 9, and WAS at 10 is probably taking a QB.  MIA is the only other 3-4 team and they are set at OLB.  Quinn and Kerrigan are scheme diverse and there are plenty of 43 teams that could take them. 

    This leaves Aldon Smith, Justin Houston and Akeem Ayers as options at 17.  If we don't address OLB at 17 there is a chance one of the three aforementioned will be there at 28.  There is nobody at 33 that makes sense.  Pick 60 would be the logical place to land a stud OLB.  We should have several of the following available, Sheard, Herzlich, Wright, Reed, Moch, Beal and Acho.  We could take one here and another at 74.

    Of all these guys, the most intriguing besides Miller is Dontay Moch.  At 6-2, 229 but with 4.38 speed, Moch could almost be a SS or hybrid LB in sub packages such as a 5-2-4 or 4-2-5 set.  Put him next to Mayo in these alignments and have him rush the passer or stay in coverage.  BB could certain find something for him to do. 

    In summary, if we miss out on or don't like Miller, Kerrigan, Smith and Quinn at 17, we could and probably should draft two OLBs at 60 and 74.  Chances are one of those 4 guys will be there but if it isn't Miller or Kerrigan, I'd be inclined to get Watt and then get Reed and Moch later.

     
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