***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! THANKS TO ALL WHO PARTICIPATED!

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : This concerns me as well. I do have a question however. How do rookies / 2nd year players like Gronk and Hernandez get it, while other rooks/2nd-4th year players and FAs don't? Is it position related...TE vs. WR?
    Posted by PatsLifer


    To me it's more then position related. The main reason I want a large possession guy over a smaller quicker guy is because of the size mismatch. Face it when you are going against 5'10"-6'0" CB's and S's and you're 6'4"+ then you don't need separation you just need to box them out. Hern and Gronk are both very good at catching balls with players on tight coverage because they can box guys out with their size and out jump players.

    It's just another form of separation and you hear it from BB when he talks about Gronks catch radius.

    To me a larger possession WR will mesh with Brady better because they mismatch against smaller DB's and Brady essentially has a larger window to throw into tighter coverage because of that larger catching radius. Smaller guys like Welker have smaller catching radius's and thus need to develop a chemistry and essentially develop the same brain as Brady
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : To me it's more then position related. The main reason I want a large possession guy over a smaller quicker guy is because of the size mismatch. Face it when you are going against 5'10"-6'0" CB's and S's and you're 6'4"+ then you don't need separation you just need to box them out. Hern and Gronk are both very good at catching balls with players on tight coverage because they can box guys out with their size and out jump players. It's just another form of separation and you hear it from BB when he talks about Gronks catch radius. To me a larger possession WR will mesh with Brady better because they mismatch against smaller DB's and Brady essentially has a larger window to throw into tighter coverage because of that larger catching radius. Smaller guys like Welker have smaller catching radius's and thus need to develop a chemistry and essentially develop the same brain as Brady
    Posted by PatsEng


    I'm with you 100%. This is why I think we should consider Dwight Jones at the end of round 2/round 3. I think he has the measurables/skill set your looking for + he's a solid run blocker on top of that.
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : The Pats have $25M...Does this account for Mayo's contract? If Welker costs us $8M-$10M of that $25M, and our draft picks cost us around $5M, that would give us $10-$12M to use in FA, plus there are other guys on our roster currently we need to resign or at least think about resigning. Is it possible the Pats do not resign Welker, and instead use the money on an FA WR like Wallace/Meachem/Colston? A higher priced target that provides something different to the offense than what we have today. Again, love Welker, but BB could easily slip Hernandez/Edelman in Welker's spot, draft another TE, sign one of Wallce/Meachem/Colston and also grab Lloyd or a WR via the draft. I'm trying to take the emotional part of Welker out of the conversation for a second and see what makes us a stronger team. What makes us a better offense? TE - Gronk TE - Fleener/Allen Slot - Hernandez/Edelman WR - Wallace WR - Lloyd OR TE - Gronk TE - Hernandez Slot - Welker WR - Lloyd WR - Branch / to be drafted Personally, I don't see us spending as much as it would take to sign Wallace to a long term contract + resign Welker. We woudl be in the same spot the Jets are by committing close to $20M of the cap towards 2 WRs. Is that smart business? I think they will have to choose...1 high priced WR (Welker or Wallace) + a guy like Lloyd.
    Posted by PatsLifer

    Yes, Mayo, Ninkovich, Wendell and the guys who were extended during the season are all counting in our cap number.  The new CBA also allows for a 3 player veteran exception if it saves their jobs vs getting cut.  So guys like Light and Welker might have their contracts exempted.  I have to go look at the specifics of this new rule.

    I love that most of our biggest rivals are in cap trouble like the Jets, Dolphins, Steelers and now the hated Giants.  I've been saying it, there will be some big names to get whacked from some of these teams that nobody is talking about now.

    POSSIBLE BIG SPENDERSTeams that have the cap space to make big moves in free agency.Cincinnati Bengals            $80,641,237Tennessee Titans             $92,739,765Washington Redskins     $94,351,284Kansas City Chiefs            $95,844,195Tampa Bay Buccaneers  $98,899,458Atlanta Falcons                 $100,227,174Denver Broncos                $101,389,121New England Patriots     $101,827,381Chicago Bears                    $101,887,741San Francisco 49ers         $102,938,980Cleveland Browns            $103,789,162WORKING ON A BUDGETTeams that aren’t up against the cap, but need to make smart moves to avoid trimming a ton of players and salaries.Jacksonville Jaguars        $107,270,274Buffalo Bills                         $108,426,522Seattle Seahawks              $111,742,430San Diego Chargers         $111,960,165New Orleans Saints         $113,358,069Philadelphia Eagles          $113,964,694Baltimore Ravens             $115,670,281Minnesota Vikings           $116,078,422Houston Texans                 $116,306,676Miami Dolphins                 $116,636,173Indianapolis Colts             $116,773,288Green Bay Packers            $118,001,169Arizona Cardinals             $118,787,639TIGHTENING THE BELTTeams that will be at, or over the projected salary cap once they’ve signed the rookie class. These teams must purge their roster moving forward. The higher the cap number, the more drastic the cut backs need to be.St. Louis Rams                   $120,982,904Detroit Lions                      $122,760,121New York Giants              $124,735,807New York Jets                   $128,092,733Dallas Cowboys                 $128,910,735Carolina Panthers            $129,962,768Oakland Raiders               $140,861,316Pittsburgh Steelers         $149,885,537
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : Personally I want a big possession type of WR that has great body control and can work the sidelines. Brady's strength is accuracy in the short to intermediate range so I want a WR who plays to those strengths (on reason I think Gronk fits so well with Brady). Someone with a large catch radius that can make adjustments to the ball. I think Lloyd has enough speed to force S's back but a lot of people want speed so I was giving options with speed in the mid rounds. Eddie Royal is another FA that you should keep an eye on. Again, another player familiar with McDaniels system and runs a 4.40. I think this would be a more realistic option as a second FA to match with Lloyd and Welker then Wallace if you are looking for speed. For me though in the draft I'm looking at players like (in no particular order): Brian Quick 6'4" 220lbs          4.5's Stephen Hill 6'4" 205lbs         4.5's Marvin McNutt 6'3" 215lbs      4.6's Dwight Jones 6'3" 225lbs       4.55's Rueben Randle 6'4" 205lbs    4.5's Mohamad Sanu 6'2" 215lbs    4.5's Damarlo Belcher 6'5" 215lbs   4.45's
    Posted by PatsEng


    Perhaps one could add Marvin Jones (6'1.7") to the list. He has been clocked as low as 4.3 and as high as 4.64. Mostly working in relative obscurity at California he was on the Watch List for WR of the year and scouts have said that his 55 reception total for 2011-12 could have been better if he worked with a top flight QB.

    So far not much.  Preseason was rated 64/238 WRs, post season rated 17/140.
    Based on his performance in the North/South game he was thought to be the most CONSISTENT (wr) performer there.  He was quick off the snap, had a burst COD to gain separation, caught everything in sight and was able to track balls well over-the-shoulder as well as adjust to poorly thrown balls.   He showed aggressiveness fighting for the ball. Scouts were surprised by his downfield speed as he easily separated from defensive backs (field fast?).

    His performance at the All-Star Mobile Bowl only confirmed what was said at the North/South game with the added comment that CBs were more highly rated at Mobile.

    As a result of his post season performances one scout rated him a "riser" and predicted that Marvin could be a STARTING wr for an NFL team.  Marvin's stats show year to year improvement and he is a 4 year college wr. Supposedly 5 NFL teams rated him as a potential 1st round selection. He could be one of several sleepers in this upcoming draft and he certainly deserves consideration in the high 2nd-3rd round  (IMO).
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Faucetman. Show Faucetman's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    Below are the rules.  The cap was $142.4MM last year but starting in 2012, the cap is adjusted per the below.

    This is what I have found out regarding the 2012 cap.

    The salary cap for 2012 has not been set, but it is projected to be between $121-125 million, with teams being able to borrow another $2 million from future caps. Therefore, we’ll safely project the salary cap to be at $124 million in ’12. But please understand this is an estimation.

     

    So, let's assume worst case it's $124MM.  Teams like the Patriots who played within the old cap rules during uncapped 2010 are in great shape whereas teams like the Jets and Steelers are in big trouble. 

    Each team has the option of using a $3 million exemption this year (2011) on a signed player to free up some room. Next year, teams will have the option of designating three player exemptions at $1.5 million each.  It looks like teams can borrow $4.5MM in future cap for 2012 for three players so they may spend perhaps up to $128.5MM, maybe more. 

    So, if we are at $102MM now and can go to $128.5MM we have $26.5MM in cap.  Tagging Welker would cost $9.4MM leaving $17.1MM.  Approx $5MM is needed for Rookies meaning we have $12.1MM of cap space to sign our current F/A and anyone new.  Ocho and Wright I believe will be cut freeing something like $3MM.  Anderson, Connolly, Love and Slater would appear to be priorities, not sure about BJGE or G. Warren.  Hoyer, Ellis, Koppen, Guyton, and Faulk I feel will be gone.  Right now, I believe we would have about $8-10MM of cap space to play with so we could get 2 high priced F/A or 8-10 value guys.

    ECONOMICS:

    » Salary cap plus benefits of $142.4 million per club in 2011 ($120.375 million for salary and bonus) and at least that amount in 2012 and 2013.
    » Beginning in 2012, salary cap to be set based on a combined share of "all revenue," a new model differentiated by revenue source with no expense reductions. Players will receive 55 percent of national media revenue, 45 percent of NFL Ventures revenue, and 40 percent of local club revenue.
    » Beginning in 2012, annual "true up" to reflect revenue increases or decreases versus projections.
    » Clubs receive credit for actual stadium investment and up to 1.5 percent of revenue each year.
    » Player share must average at least 47 percent for the 10-year term of the agreement.
    » League-wide commitment to cash spending of 99 percent of the cap in 2011 and 2012.
    » For the 2013-2016 seasons, and again for the 2017-2020 seasons, the clubs collectively will commit to cash spending of at least 95 percent of the cap.
    » Each club committed to cash spending of 89 percent of the cap from 2013-2016 and 2017-2020.
    » Increases to minimum salaries of 10 percent in Year 1 with continuing increases each year of the agreement.

    2011-2012 TRANSITION RULES:

    » Special transition rules to protect veteran players in 2011. All teams will have approximately $3.5 million in what would otherwise be performance-based pay available to fund veteran player salaries.
    » Each club may "borrow" up to $3 million in cap room from a future year, which may be used to support veteran player costs.
    » In 2012, each club may "borrow" up to $1.5 million in cap room from a future year. Both these amounts would be repaid in future years.

     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    Eng/Lifer,

    I think Welker will get tagged unless he is extended first.  Once tagged, they could go year-to-year but most likely they will work out a deal that is less painful to the cap.  As for Wallace, I think he could be had for much less than what we've been talking.  First, if PIT restricts him at the 1st round level, it costs them $2.8MM.  They are already in huge cap jail so any offer we make would be hard for them to match and if they do match, they will have to let other player(s) go to make room.  I need to look where PIT is spending their money, we could see several high priced guys cut.

    Back to Wallace.  I think it possible we could get him at a cap number of about $5MM.  Lloyd would probably be about $3MM.  Branch could probably come back for $2MM or less.  If Welker gets tagged then extended I could see his cap charge cut to maybe $6MM.  My point it there is room for all of these guys, Welker, Wallace, Lloyd, Branch and Edelman.  But I agree we aren't likely to go after Wallace.

    I need to study who PIT and some of the other teams in cap prison have for high profile guys that would clear a lot of cap if cut.  Perhaps a Woodley, Harrison, OC from the Giants, etc could be in trouble.  Don't know until I look.  more later...
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    Eng/Lifer, I think Welker will get tagged unless he is extended first.  Once tagged, they could go year-to-year but most likely they will work out a deal that is less painful to the cap.  As for Wallace, I think he could be had for much less than what we've been talking.  First, if PIT restricts him at the 1st round level, it costs them $2.8MM.  They are already in huge cap jail so any offer we make would be hard for them to match and if they do match, they will have to let other player(s) go to make room.  I need to look where PIT is spending their money, we could see several high priced guys cut. Back to Wallace.  I think it possible we could get him at a cap number of about $5MM.  Lloyd would probably be about $3MM.  Branch could probably come back for $2MM or less.  If Welker gets tagged then extended I could see his cap charge cut to maybe $6MM.  My point it there is room for all of these guys, Welker, Wallace, Lloyd, Branch and Edelman.  But I agree we aren't likely to go after Wallace. I need to study who PIT and some of the other teams in cap prison have for high profile guys that would clear a lot of cap if cut.  Perhaps a Woodley, Harrison, OC from the Giants, etc could be in trouble.  Don't know until I look.  more later...
    Posted by Faucetman


    Here you go found this article 


    POSSIBLE BIG SPENDERS

    Teams that have the cap space to make big moves in free agency.

    Cincinnati Bengals            $80,641,237

    Tennessee Titans             $92,739,765

    Washington Redskins     $94,351,284

    Kansas City Chiefs            $95,844,195

    Tampa Bay Buccaneers  $98,899,458

    Atlanta Falcons                 $100,227,174

    Denver Broncos                $101,389,121

    New England Patriots     $101,827,381

    Chicago Bears                    $101,887,741

    San Francisco 49ers         $102,938,980

    Cleveland Browns            $103,789,162

    WORKING ON A BUDGET

    Teams that aren’t up against the cap, but need to make smart moves to avoid trimming a ton of players and salaries.

    Jacksonville Jaguars        $107,270,274

    Buffalo Bills                         $108,426,522

    Seattle Seahawks              $111,742,430

    San Diego Chargers         $111,960,165

    New Orleans Saints         $113,358,069

    Philadelphia Eagles          $113,964,694

    Baltimore Ravens             $115,670,281

    Minnesota Vikings           $116,078,422

    Houston Texans                 $116,306,676

    Miami Dolphins                 $116,636,173

    Indianapolis Colts             $116,773,288

    Green Bay Packers            $118,001,169

    Arizona Cardinals             $118,787,639

    TIGHTENING THE BELT

    Teams that will be at, or over the projected salary cap once they’ve signed the rookie class. These teams must purge their roster moving forward. The higher the cap number, the more drastic the cut backs need to be.

    St. Louis Rams                   $120,982,904

    Detroit Lions                      $122,760,121

    New York Giants              $124,735,807

    New York Jets                   $128,092,733

    Dallas Cowboys                 $128,910,735

    Carolina Panthers            $129,962,768

    Oakland Raiders               $140,861,316

    Pittsburgh Steelers         $149,885,537

    After taking a look at the early numbers my hope is you’ll understand why the Dolphins can’t do it big in free agency right now (quarterback upgrade is team owner Steve Ross‘ priority, then discount shopping from bargains) without restructuring plenty of contracts, or cutting a few high profile players.

    Also, keep in mind the free agent class will get enhanced over the next few weeks as teams try to get their books in order. Those players can sign with a new team immediately, but keep in mind they are usually damaged goods (injury history, declining play, problematic personalities, etc.).

    G.G.G.

     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    " This year the cap figures to be between $121-125 million with teams allowed to borrow $2 million from future caps."

    http://nflsfuture.com/2012/02/07/nfl-offseason-primer-team-by-team-salary-cap-projections/ 

    Didn't know this rule, borrowing up to 2 mil of a future cap.  Not smart business I think but gives some of teams in trouble flexibility if they know they have expiring contracts that by that year's cap and they will be much lower.
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    Eng/Lifer, I think Welker will get tagged unless he is extended first.  Once tagged, they could go year-to-year but most likely they will work out a deal that is less painful to the cap.  As for Wallace, I think he could be had for much less than what we've been talking.  First, if PIT restricts him at the 1st round level, it costs them $2.8MM.  They are already in huge cap jail so any offer we make would be hard for them to match and if they do match, they will have to let other player(s) go to make room.  I need to look where PIT is spending their money, we could see several high priced guys cut. Back to Wallace.  I think it possible we could get him at a cap number of about $5MM.  Lloyd would probably be about $3MM.  Branch could probably come back for $2MM or less.  If Welker gets tagged then extended I could see his cap charge cut to maybe $6MM.  My point it there is room for all of these guys, Welker, Wallace, Lloyd, Branch and Edelman.  But I agree we aren't likely to go after Wallace. I need to study who PIT and some of the other teams in cap prison have for high profile guys that would clear a lot of cap if cut.  Perhaps a Woodley, Harrison, OC from the Giants, etc could be in trouble.  Don't know until I look.  more later...
    Posted by Faucetman


    I agree we could get Wallace and the other guys you mention, my argument was more based at what cost. In other words if we spent big on the WR core for Welker, Lloyd, and Wallace how much room does that actually leave us for D players? I've always been a D man so I'm a biased towards where I want the money to go honestly. I take a look at Ridley gaining BB's trust over the summer, Vereen getting a chance to work in, Hern, Gronk, Welker coming back, Lloyd being an upgrade over Branch, and Branch being an upgrade over Ocho. How much would a Wallace add to the overall O vs say a younger (Sanu, Floyd) with #31 and then take that $5mil you would have spent on Wallace and get a Griffin or Williams for the secondary? I just think that the bigger improvement and better use of cap space is not spent on Wallace.

    Besides if $5mil would be enough to get Wallace a number of teams would do it. Don't forget it's not just the Pats and Pit but every team could grab him and Wallace seems like a player to me that will go after the bigger contract
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : Perhaps one could add Marvin Jones (6'1.7") to the list. He has been clocked as low as 4.3 and as high as 4.64. Mostly working in relative obscurity at California he was on the Watch List for WR of the year and scouts have said that his 55 reception total for 2011-12 could have been better if he worked with a top flight QB. So far not much.  Preseason was rated 64/238 WRs, post season rated 17/140. Based on his performance in the North/South game he was thought to be the most CONSISTENT (wr) performer there.  He was quick off the snap, had a burst COD to gain separation, caught everything in sight and was able to track balls well over-the-shoulder as well as adjust to poorly thrown balls.   He showed aggressiveness fighting for the ball. Scouts were surprised by his downfield speed as he easily separated from defensive backs (field fast?). His performance at the All-Star Mobile Bowl only confirmed what was said at the North/South game with the added comment that CBs were more highly rated at Mobile. As a result of his post season performances one scout rated him a "riser" and predicted that Marvin could be a STARTING wr for an NFL team.  Marvin's stats show year to year improvement and he is a 4 year college wr. Supposedly 5 NFL teams rated him as a potential 1st round selection. He could be one of several sleepers in this upcoming draft and he certainly deserves consideration in the high 2nd-3rd round  (IMO).
    Posted by moskk


    I'll have to look Jones up. Don't know a lot about him honestly. But if he's ~6'2" and can run a sub 4.4 I would be very interested to see how he handles running routes, his yac ability, and his body control
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : Here you go found this article  http://blogs.sun-sentinel.com/sports_football_dolphins/2012/02/nfl-salary-cap-projections-for-2012-season.html POSSIBLE BIG SPENDERS Teams that have the cap space to make big moves in free agency. Cincinnati Bengals            $80,641,237 Tennessee Titans             $92,739,765 Washington Redskins     $94,351,284 Kansas City Chiefs            $95,844,195 Tampa Bay Buccaneers  $98,899,458 Atlanta Falcons                 $100,227,174 Denver Broncos                $101,389,121 New England Patriots     $101,827,381 Chicago Bears                    $101,887,741 San Francisco 49ers         $102,938,980 Cleveland Browns            $103,789,162 WORKING ON A BUDGET Teams that aren’t up against the cap, but need to make smart moves to avoid trimming a ton of players and salaries. Jacksonville Jaguars        $107,270,274 Buffalo Bills                         $108,426,522 Seattle Seahawks              $111,742,430 San Diego Chargers         $111,960,165 New Orleans Saints         $113,358,069 Philadelphia Eagles          $113,964,694 Baltimore Ravens             $115,670,281 Minnesota Vikings           $116,078,422 Houston Texans                 $116,306,676 Miami Dolphins                 $116,636,173 Indianapolis Colts             $116,773,288 Green Bay Packers            $118,001,169 Arizona Cardinals             $118,787,639 TIGHTENING THE BELT Teams that will be at, or over the projected salary cap once they’ve signed the rookie class. These teams must purge their roster moving forward. The higher the cap number, the more drastic the cut backs need to be. St. Louis Rams                   $120,982,904 Detroit Lions                      $122,760,121 New York Giants              $124,735,807 New York Jets                   $128,092,733 Dallas Cowboys                 $128,910,735 Carolina Panthers            $129,962,768 Oakland Raiders               $140,861,316 Pittsburgh Steelers         $149,885,537 After taking a look at the early numbers my hope is you’ll understand why the Dolphins can’t do it big in free agency right now (quarterback upgrade is team owner  Steve Ross ‘ priority, then discount shopping from bargains) without restructuring plenty of contracts, or cutting a few high profile players. Also, keep in mind the free agent class will get enhanced over the next few weeks as teams try to get their books in order. Those players can sign with a new team immediately, but keep in mind they are usually damaged goods (injury history, declining play, problematic personalities, etc.). G.G.G.
    Posted by Pats7393

    I already posted this story a couple of posts back but yours came out nicer:).

    Okay, here is what they are saying in Steeler land:

    Excercise and option in Lawrence Timmons and LaMarr Woodley's contract
    James Farrior and James Harrison to get cut.
    Brian McFadden and William Gay not to be brought back
    Release Jonathan Scott and Arnaz Battle
    Restructure Hines Ward
    Release Will Allen and Chris Kemoeatu
    Release kicker Shaun Suisham after June 1
    Retire Aaron Smith

    So there you go.  James Harrison most likely will be in play.  He's 33 but still had 9 sacks last year.  We shouldn't have to over pay him.  Gay would be cheap.  There is no mention of restricting Mike Wallace or what would happen if a team tried to sign him away, obviously more cuts would be needed.  If we were to go after Wallace, we really bend PIT over forcing them to make rapid decisions and cuts to match.  I think it is worth doing on a deal that makes sense to us that we can be happy with if we get him just to put PIT through this agony.
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    Had a chance to see some of Jones vids and a couple of things became pretty clear

    1) Makes a lot of real hard catches
    2) Not much YAC ability, tends to go down with initial contact
    3) Fights for balls in the air but won't fight for the extra yard
    4) Tends to be stood up or falls backwards when hit

    He's got great body control and amazing hands but doesn't get a lot of seperation and tends to fall where he catches

    It might just be the highlight reel I looked at but if his highlights are showing this then makes you would if he can generate additional seperation or gain additional yac in the pro's

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boy0tkwcv-A

    Just for comparison here's a highlight vid for Quick. Similar type of player who should be taken in similar range. Notice his hip movement and footwork after the catch

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oh5X0_c1DZo&feature=related



    BTW does anyone else but me shut off the sound on these highlight vids so that it won't be biased by the music
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : This concerns me as well. I do have a question however. How do rookies / 2nd year players like Gronk and Hernandez get it, while other rooks/2nd-4th year players and FAs don't? Is it position related...TE vs. WR?
    Posted by PatsLifer


    I am convinced that at least in small part it is about Brady and forcing his hand. When Brady came into the league he had no cache and when he played it took time to gain that AND also for him to gain that level of reading a defense pre snap as he has now.

    He...

    1) Wasn't as good at it himself as he is now. (which has pluses and minuses) SO he was more patient with receivers who also weren't since he didn't have as much to stand on.

    2) He is forced in certain circumstances to deal with it.

    Reche caldwell saw the field AND caught almost 70 balls. Ben Watson that year also caught his highest total as a Patriot proving he could do the job. However neither was long for the roster because Brady obviously didn't connect with them on the level he wanted.

    The year we get Gronk and Hernandez. Who is he throwing to at the TE spot if not one or both of those two? Did they just get it right away or did he not really have much of an option?

    This season they get Ocho but he has Wes, Branch, Gronk AND Hernandez now with a full year of experience "on the field". He doesn't have to make it work with Ocho cause he has other options.

    I also have absolutely no idea how or if the TE's read and react to what the Defense in doing in the same exact ways as the WR's. Maybe there is less of it?

    Branch grew up in the system with Brady together
    Moss got it and Brady loved that part most about him
    Welker got it and was always open and reliable so Brady loved that
    Gaffney got it over about a years time
    Stallworth never got it and Brady lost faith
    Bethal was a knucklehead, has been said was immature/work ethic issue
    Chack Jackson same as Bethal
    Brandon Tate had limited experience as WR and Brady has no patience now
    Taylor Price siimilar to Tate, type of offense questions
    Ocho no offseason & apparently can't get it or not yet anyways and no "on field" experience really to speak of cause he wasn't a necessity

    Bethal not a necessity his first year, other reliable and trusted options
    Chad Jackson WAS however a necessity and I believe its why he got as many chances as he did
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : Here you go found this article  http://blogs.sun-sentinel.com/sports_football_dolphins/2012/02/nfl-salary-cap-projections-for-2012-season.html POSSIBLE BIG SPENDERS Teams that have the cap space to make big moves in free agency. Cincinnati Bengals            $80,641,237 Tennessee Titans             $92,739,765 Washington Redskins     $94,351,284 Kansas City Chiefs            $95,844,195 Tampa Bay Buccaneers  $98,899,458 Atlanta Falcons                 $100,227,174 Denver Broncos                $101,389,121 New England Patriots     $101,827,381 Chicago Bears                    $101,887,741 San Francisco 49ers         $102,938,980 Cleveland Browns            $103,789,162 WORKING ON A BUDGET Teams that aren’t up against the cap, but need to make smart moves to avoid trimming a ton of players and salaries. Jacksonville Jaguars        $107,270,274 Buffalo Bills                         $108,426,522 Seattle Seahawks              $111,742,430 San Diego Chargers         $111,960,165 New Orleans Saints         $113,358,069 Philadelphia Eagles          $113,964,694 Baltimore Ravens             $115,670,281 Minnesota Vikings           $116,078,422 Houston Texans                 $116,306,676 Miami Dolphins                 $116,636,173 Indianapolis Colts             $116,773,288 Green Bay Packers            $118,001,169 Arizona Cardinals             $118,787,639 TIGHTENING THE BELT Teams that will be at, or over the projected salary cap once they’ve signed the rookie class. These teams must purge their roster moving forward. The higher the cap number, the more drastic the cut backs need to be. St. Louis Rams                   $120,982,904 Detroit Lions                      $122,760,121 New York Giants              $124,735,807 New York Jets                   $128,092,733 Dallas Cowboys                 $128,910,735 Carolina Panthers            $129,962,768 Oakland Raiders               $140,861,316 Pittsburgh Steelers         $149,885,537 After taking a look at the early numbers my hope is you’ll understand why the Dolphins can’t do it big in free agency right now (quarterback upgrade is team owner  Steve Ross ‘ priority, then discount shopping from bargains) without restructuring plenty of contracts, or cutting a few high profile players. Also, keep in mind the free agent class will get enhanced over the next few weeks as teams try to get their books in order. Those players can sign with a new team immediately, but keep in mind they are usually damaged goods (injury history, declining play, problematic personalities, etc.). G.G.G.
    Posted by Pats7393


    Great information. This also confirms that some teams were either misled by the uncapped year or simply did not position their teams correctly and are in cap hell. Also think that Seymour is due some huge money from the Raiders (8.5m -10m) and he could be a cap casualty. I would have to see a chart of every team's players to sort of predict who might get released and who gets signed.

    Really appreciate the information. Seems like the Pats have plenty of room even if Welker is franchised.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Low-FB-IQ. Show Low-FB-IQ's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : To me it's more then position related. The main reason I want a large possession guy over a smaller quicker guy is because of the size mismatch. Face it when you are going against 5'10"-6'0" CB's and S's and you're 6'4"+ then you don't need separation you just need to box them out. Hern and Gronk are both very good at catching balls with players on tight coverage because they can box guys out with their size and out jump players. It's just another form of separation and you hear it from BB when he talks about Gronks catch radius. To me a larger possession WR will mesh with Brady better because they mismatch against smaller DB's and Brady essentially has a larger window to throw into tighter coverage because of that larger catching radius. Smaller guys like Welker have smaller catching radius's and thus need to develop a chemistry and essentially develop the same brain as Brady
    Posted by PatsEng


    Absolute perfectly logical sound theory. However, imo, the reality simply doesn't play out that way the very large majority of the time unless you either draft a blue chipper OR are flat out lucky enough to land a incorrectly evaluated blue chipper.

    I would argue there are far more Ramses Bardens in Draft History than lucky finds.

    Ramses Barden 6-6 229 lbs 4.5 40 Pick 21 in 3rd by Giants 15 receptions in 3 years

    Malcolm Kelly 6-4 226 lbs 4.5 40 Pick 20 in 2nd round by SKins 28 receptions in 2 yrs out of league

    Mind you I started in 2009 looked at 2nd or 3rd rounders who were taller than 6-2 and ran in the 4.5 range or better

    A guy like Robert Meachum is close cause he fits the measureable but he was pick 27 in the 1st.

    Its more work then I am willing to do right now but simply checking 2009 and 2008 I quickly found 2 cases.

    1) I think the guys who fit the criteria are usually freaks and perform as such or just are avg at best, except the VERY few ones missed by scouts

    2) I don't think you can simply think an accurate QB is going to look at a receiver and know he is covered and just say it don't matter I will just throw it up high and let my guy out jump him. That's a low percentage throw in my opinion. It will work sometimes but not others. I want the guy who's open with no chance of interception. The tall receiver will typically have to make a more difficult catch, again making it a lower percentage catch(especially if he's elevating). If he has that body control in the first place I go back to him being a blue chipper to begin with) Lastly I would also argue you are opening up your receiver for a greater chance of injury by always making him go up over everyone to come down with the throw in traffic.

    Again don't misunderstand, the theory is absolutely sound. But the guys who are doing it like Calvin Johnson. Rob Gronkowski aren't your typical guys.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Low-FB-IQ. Show Low-FB-IQ's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : Yes, Mayo, Ninkovich, Wendell and the guys who were extended during the season are all counting in our cap number.  The new CBA also allows for a 3 player veteran exception if it saves their jobs vs getting cut.  So guys like Light and Welker might have their contracts exempted.  I have to go look at the specifics of this new rule. I love that most of our biggest rivals are in cap trouble like the Jets, Dolphins, Steelers and now the hated Giants.  I've been saying it, there will be some big names to get whacked from some of these teams that nobody is talking about now. POSSIBLE BIG SPENDERS Teams that have the cap space to make big moves in free agency. Cincinnati Bengals            $80,641,237 Tennessee Titans             $92,739,765 Washington Redskins     $94,351,284 Kansas City Chiefs            $95,844,195 Tampa Bay Buccaneers  $98,899,458 Atlanta Falcons                 $100,227,174 Denver Broncos                $101,389,121 New England Patriots     $101,827,381 Chicago Bears                    $101,887,741 San Francisco 49ers         $102,938,980 Cleveland Browns            $103,789,162 WORKING ON A BUDGET Teams that aren’t up against the cap, but need to make smart moves to avoid trimming a ton of players and salaries. Jacksonville Jaguars        $107,270,274 Buffalo Bills                         $108,426,522 Seattle Seahawks              $111,742,430 San Diego Chargers         $111,960,165 New Orleans Saints         $113,358,069 Philadelphia Eagles          $113,964,694 Baltimore Ravens             $115,670,281 Minnesota Vikings           $116,078,422 Houston Texans                 $116,306,676 Miami Dolphins                 $116,636,173 Indianapolis Colts             $116,773,288 Green Bay Packers            $118,001,169 Arizona Cardinals             $118,787,639 TIGHTENING THE BELT Teams that will be at, or over the projected salary cap once they’ve signed the rookie class. These teams must purge their roster moving forward. The higher the cap number, the more drastic the cut backs need to be. St. Louis Rams                   $120,982,904 Detroit Lions                      $122,760,121 New York Giants              $124,735,807 New York Jets                   $128,092,733 Dallas Cowboys                 $128,910,735 Carolina Panthers            $129,962,768 Oakland Raiders               $140,861,316 Pittsburgh Steelers         $149,885,537
    Posted by Faucetman



    Wow the Bengals with the most to spend, 9 draft picks this year and 2 of them 1st rounders both higher than the Patriots AND in the AFC with an already pretty good team.

    They are the Bengals so they could screw up but if they don't that team could be very good next season.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : Absolute perfectly logical sound theory. However, imo, the reality simply doesn't play out that way the very large majority of the time unless you either draft a blue chipper OR are flat out lucky enough to land a incorrectly evaluated blue chipper. I would argue there are far more Ramses Bardens in Draft History than lucky finds. Ramses Barden 6-6 229 lbs 4.5 40 Pick 21 in 3rd by Giants 15 receptions in 3 years Malcolm Kelly 6-4 226 lbs 4.5 40 Pick 20 in 2nd round by SKins 28 receptions in 2 yrs out of league Mind you I started in 2009 looked at 2nd or 3rd rounders who were taller than 6-2 and ran in the 4.5 range or better A guy like Robert Meachum is close cause he fits the measureable but he was pick 27 in the 1st. Its more work then I am willing to do right now but simply checking 2009 and 2008 I quickly found 2 cases. 1) I think the guys who fit the criteria are usually freaks and perform as such or just are avg at best, except the VERY few ones missed by scouts 2) I don't think you can simply think an accurate QB is going to look at a receiver and know he is covered and just say it don't matter I will just throw it up high and let my guy out jump him. That's a low percentage throw in my opinion. It will work sometimes but not others. I want the guy who's open with no chance of interception. The tall receiver will typically have to make a more difficult catch, again making it a lower percentage catch(especially if he's elevating). If he has that body control in the first place I go back to him being a blue chipper to begin with) Lastly I would also argue you are opening up your receiver for a greater chance of injury by always making him go up over everyone to come down with the throw in traffic. Again don't misunderstand, the theory is absolutely sound. But the guys who are doing it like Calvin Johnson. Rob Gronkowski aren't your typical guys.
    Posted by Low-FB-IQ


    Low this is true but the roads are also littered with smaller fast players too. Look no further then Oak for that, or heck even the Pats (the B Johnson anyone?). Of course you have to hit and not every tall WR is going to be a fit. It would be foolish to say they will.

    What I meant was that larger possession WR's might have a higher rate of success with Brady because of their larger window he has to throw to. They play into Brady's strength. The Welker's and Branch's (in his day) are just as rare finds. But, if you give Brady a larger window to throw into because of a mismatch and (key word) the WR has the hands/body control to make catches in tight coverage then I think they will fit in better then a speedy WR who has a smaller window and needs time to develop chemistry with Brady. Lets face it Brady is not a fan of developing young receivers anymore unless forced due to lack of options at the position. A larger catching radius (with good hands) could accelerate the trust factor but a faster WR with a small catch radius (Tate, Price, Jackson, B Johnson) he might not every develop a trust early on
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from moskk. Show moskk's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    Had a chance to see some of Jones vids and a couple of things became pretty clear 1) Makes a lot of real hard catches 2) Not much YAC ability, tends to go down with initial contact 3) Fights for balls in the air but won't fight for the extra yard 4) Tends to be stood up or falls backwards when hit He's got great body control and amazing hands but doesn't get a lot of seperation and tends to fall where he catches It might just be the highlight reel I looked at but if his highlights are showing this then makes you would if he can generate additional seperation or gain additional yac in the pro's http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boy0tkwcv-A Just for comparison here's a highlight vid for Quick. Similar type of player who should be taken in similar range. Notice his hip movement and footwork after the catch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oh5X0_c1DZo&feature=related BTW does anyone else but me shut off the sound on these highlight vids so that it won't be biased by the music
    Posted by PatsEng


    The comment on Jones' route running at the North/South game was that he ran crisp routes as good or better than anyone there.

    As for falling down on contact etc., I thought the comparison to Branch fit quite nicely since that has been my opinion of Branch.  That Marvin was lauded for his ability to get separation also reminded me of a YOUNG Branch.

    Considering TB's trust factor with wrs it would appear that Jones might meet with his approval, especially since he seems capable of getting separation and catches everything in sight...to include badly thrown passes.

    He may not have an "ultra" speed gear but he did impress as being field fast. I can't add anything about his YAC history because I have yet to read comments about that in his scouting reports. 
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Faucetman. Show Faucetman's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : I agree we could get Wallace and the other guys you mention, my argument was more based at what cost. In other words if we spent big on the WR core for Welker, Lloyd, and Wallace how much room does that actually leave us for D players?I've always been a D man so I'm a biased towards where I want the money to go honestly. I take a look at Ridley gaining BB's trust over the summer, Vereen getting a chance to work in, Hern, Gronk, Welker coming back, Lloyd being an upgrade over Branch, and Branch being an upgrade over Ocho. How much would a Wallace add to the overall O vs say a younger (Sanu, Floyd) with #31 and then take that $5mil you would have spent on Wallace and get a Griffin or Williams for the secondary? I just think that the bigger improvement and better use of cap space is not spent on Wallace. Besides if $5mil would be enough to get Wallace a number of teams would do it. Don't forget it's not just the Pats and Pit but every team could grab him and Wallace seems like a player to me that will go after the bigger contract
    Posted by PatsEng

    A couple of things in response.

    If we spent $5MM on Wallace, cut Ocho and Wright, it would be a net $2MM charge to the cap.  If we tag Welker, then extend, we could probably lower his cap hit from $9.4MM to $5-6MM.  By way of example, Mankins' new deal was a $5MM cap number, same with Mayo.  VW was at $4.6MM in 2011 cap.  So, let's say we get Welker right in that $5MM range.  We have now spend $7MM of our $25MM in cap space for Welker and Wallace.  We need to reserve $5MM for rookies.  Slater (1), Connolly (2), Anderson (2) and Love (1) might cost the cap $6MM.  We still have $7MM to go after Mario Williams.

    On the other hand, I would rather have Williams than just about any known free agent right now.  We could instantly go back to the 34 with a line of Deaderick, Wilfork and Williams.  We could pick up James Harrison and William Gay on the cheap before the draft and we would have addressed each level of the D before using a pick.  We could probably still get Lloyd or resign Branch

    If we scrap the Wallace idea, then I would go after Barron at 27 then Sanu at 31 as he seems like the safest of the WRs in range.  Might still be able to get Curry at 47 to develop or Kevin Zeitler to learn a year under Waters.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Pats7393. Show Pats7393's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    How about looking at FAs with other a different idea, there are certain positions on the field BB doesn't give to rookies.  Because of scheme difficulty or they just don't trust them so I'm looking at the following positions:

    RB - They want a guy who can learn quickly their blocking schemes.  Rookies have the hardest time with this aspect of the game.  With Faulk and possibly Benny (saw and article where they are saying Cincy could sign BJGE, type of RB they are looking for and they probably don't bring back Benson)
    At RB - Jackie Battle - Big broucing RB, will stand next to Brady and protect

    OLB - NE demands a lot from their OLBs, seldom will you see a rookie there.  I'm sure they will look at some, Anderson and Carter will be an option but its time for a stud.
    At OLB - Ahmad Brooks, he doesn't have huge numbers until this season wasn't a starter until 2011 but he was very productive and has played in a 34. 
        OLB - Bobby Carpenter, this is more of a roll of dice.  He has played in a 43 and 34 systems.  Think he would be able to play OLB and come in for nickel coverage assignments.  He won't be expensive.

    WR - This is the hard one, NE has tried both rookies and vets and most have not worked so having a guy with NFL experience is similar offenses is where I give the advantage.
    At WR - Meachem over Lloyd because of age and speed.  Meachem plays in that spread type of which also uses a TE to as a 1st read.  He's a compliment guy not a #1.  If he can't be in NO he'll still want to be in a contender
        WR - Lloyd very familiar with the system almost a lock to come to NE, question is for how much?

    DE - Would love to add Williams here but he will be expensive, Williams might not be an option because it leaves less $$ for other FA of need.
    At DE Carriker, I really like Carriker and think he would make would dominate next to VW.  In a 43 he can push the pocket and get you a few sacks.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from sportslover21. Show sportslover21's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    The cap casualties begin for teams in bad cap shape.

    Raiders cut CB Stanford Routt who signed 5 Year 50+ Million dollar extension last year. He actually had a pretty good year as well for Oakland. He will definitely make some money on the open market. (6'1" 195lbs) ran a 4.26 40 at the Combine and is only 26 years old. Best quality is his press-man coverage.

    Not sure if the Pats will have interest, it's possible with there needs in the secondary, he would be a good add.

    He's free to sign immediately as a released player, no waivers.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    hey Pats7393 - A WR to add to that list is Laurent Robinson from Dal. Had a great year, decent size, good speed, only 1 year of production and bounced around from team to team so cost might be low, still young.

    Another is Danny Amendola from the Rams. Has put up similar numbers to Welker when he was with the Phins. Rams most likely will 2nd round tender him similar to Welker and McDaniels knows his capabilities. Was injured this year so production down and the Rams might not even try to match an offer. Could replace Edelman as Welkers immediate slot backup as a #3/4 WR leaving Edelman more flexibility to be a #5 CB and STer
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Pats7393. Show Pats7393's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    hey Pats7393 - A WR to add to that list is Laurent Robinson from Dal. Had a great year, decent size, good speed, only 1 year of production and bounced around from team to team so cost might be low, still young. Another is Danny Amendola from the Rams. Has put up similar numbers to Welker when he was with the Phins. Rams most likely will 2nd round tender him similar to Welker and McDaniels knows his capabilities. Was injured this year so production down and the Rams might not even try to match an offer. Could replace Edelman as Welkers immediate slot backup as a #3/4 WR leaving Edelman more flexibility to be a #5 CB and STer
    Posted by PatsEng


    PE good call on Robinson, I had missed he's available this season.  He might want to go to a place where he's the #1 guy and probably thinks he's getting that type of $$.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from mbeaulieu07. Show mbeaulieu07's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : I'll have to look Jones up. Don't know a lot about him honestly. But if he's ~6'2" and can run a sub 4.4 I would be very interested to see how he handles running routes, his yac ability, and his body control
    Posted by PatsEng


    PE,
    Jones is a kid that I'm very high on after doing some research and watching some tape on him after the SB.  He looks like a 4.5 kid, but his strength is his route running and ability to separate which is what really interests me.  He's already advanced in the technique/football IQ part of the game, so I think he could see the field sooner than later.

    He also demonstrates excellent body control and ball skills IMO, he'll work the middle of the field, he can elevate to high point the ball and has very good hands with huge 10 inch mitts.  He's not a pure game breaker and doesn't have elite quicks/fluidity, but he's made some big plays and as been able to get behind the 3rd level on occasion.

    He's at or near the top of my list for WR's in the middle rounds.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    Looks like Micheal Huff is going to be released by Oak

    Might be a very good option at FS 

    Also Dal doesn't look like they will resign Martellu Bennett's. He might be a good 3rd option TE for the 2 TE set
     
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