***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! THANKS TO ALL WHO PARTICIPATED!

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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    I hope this is the year we go defense with all our top picks. I like our current group of Corners, Run Stuffing Defensive Tackles and Inside Line backers. 

    I think we could really improve by adding a penetrating 1 gap defensive Lineman, two edge rushers and a ball hawking safety.

    Given the above, I would hope for something like this,

    1st Round Pick 1 ---------   Courtney Upshaw (OLB) Alabama

    1st Round Pick 2 ---------   Brandon Jenkins (DE) Florida State/ Vinny Curry                                             (DE) Marshall

    2nd Round Pick 1---------   Robert Lester (FS) Alabama

    2nd Round Pick 2---------   Billy Winn (DT/DE) Boise State

    I would then go offense with the the 3rd and 4th round picks and look to pick a WR and TE such as Colby Fleener from Stanford.

    Appreciate your thoughts.


     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]I hope this is the year we go defense with all our top picks. I like our current group of Corners, Run Stuffing Defensive Tackles and Inside Line backers.  I think we could really improve by adding a penetrating 1 gap defensive Lineman, two edge rushers and a ball hawking safety. Given the above, I would hope for something like this, 1st Round Pick 1 ---------   Courtney Upshaw (OLB) Alabama 1st Round Pick 2 ---------   Brandon Jenkins (DE) Florida State/ Vinny Curry                                             (DE) Marshall 2nd Round Pick 1---------   Robert Lester (FS) Alabama 2nd Round Pick 2---------   Billy Winn (DT/DE) Boise State I would then go offense with the the 3rd and 4th round picks and look to pick a WR and TE such as Colby Fleener from Stanford. Appreciate your thoughts.
    Posted by speedster81[/QUOTE]

    Upshaw, Curry, and Lester would be a dream draft for me right now.

    However, I don't think both Upshaw and Curry make it to our 1st pick. I think it would be one of the other and right now I'd rather have Curry. I just prefer players closer to being a DL then closer to a LB. I'm always under the assumption that pass rush starts in the trenches and ripples out.

    I'm not sure Lester makes it to Oak's pick. It looks like Oak might actually a shot to make the post-season so their pick might be later in the 2nd and I don't see Lester making out of the mid 2nd, given the bad S play around the league.

    But I'd dance for joy at this point if we could get them all
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***


    I agree with Pats7393 and PatsEng. Our hits/misses in the draft are well documented. Because of the misses, we'll need to probably dedicate a couple of more picks to the secondary (S&CB) unless BB thinks Moulden/Adams are either starting caliber or strong contributing CBs. I personally don't see it. I think we need a good #2 CB because I'm not putting any stock at this poinnt in Ras and Arrington to me is actually better at the star position.

    Safety is an interesting position. I don't have much faith in Brown or Barrett. Idehigbo is okay, but he's too much in the mold of Chung and Barrett (not good cover safeties). We need a more natural cover safety to compliment Chung, or draft a stout CB and make him a Safety. Someone that comes in with cover skills because of playing CB but with the size to play safety. Really just a bigger CB, somewhere in the 215/220 range with some speed and instinct.

    Takes me to PatsEng point...I too agree that DL/DE is a key position of need. The question is do we draft a 4-3 DT/DE or a bigger 3-4 DE who can also play in the interior? My feeling is we look at pure 4-3 DT's/DE's. Brace can fill in at 3-4 End if we need him (assuming he is healthy), and I like the Pats a bit better when they are running 4+ man lines. Crick is an interesting name to watch, but I think there are many others depending on how much of a need we think this is. I also like Vin Curry. I mentioned his name about 10 pages ago, a kid I would keep an eye on. Also, let us not forget FA here. Roth was mentioned. Another name is Mathis from Indy. Big money for him, but can you imagine either Roth or Mathis opposite Carter? I think Carter needs to be extended for another year. He's good against the run and also can rush.
    Roth gives you a bit more flexibility as he can play 3-4 OLB, but Mathis is a monster pass rusher. Depends on how much $$$ we want to dedicate to that position.

    LB is another story. Frankly the only 2 LB's that I like, and worthy of "starter" are Mayo and Spikes. It would be nice to draft Manti Te'O with one of our firsts and put him next to Spikes. A trio of Mayo/Spikes/Manti would be just want the doctor ordered. That is a significant upgrade at LB, and we have Fletcher, Guyton and Nink as depth which is where they belong.

    On to offense....I'm curious if the Pats resign Welker. Somethign tells me he walks. OR maybe the Pats are not as interested as we believe? IF he walks, could we see Hernandez/Vereen/Edelman(if he's not cut) play Welker's role in the slot? I kind of like the 2 or 3 of them sharing this position. I think each present match up challenges like Welker with a bit more strength to muscle off jams at the line. I think Wes is more easily interrupted at the line than if you compare him to Hernandez or Vereen for example. Problem is Vereen is not proven in this role, but I'm pretty confident he could do it if molded and coached up. He has the quicks, speed, hands and strength. If Hern is used more in this mold (full time in the slot), I want the kid from Stanford (Fleener) that MB and I mentioned earlier. He paired with Gronk would be nice. THat is 2 very big, good inline blocking and pass catching TE's on the outside. Power run game with options here we come. I think Fleener can be had in the 2nd/3rd round.

    This takes us to the outside. I thiink the Ocho experiement is over after this season if we wait that long. Price should be getting all of Ocho's reps at this point. I think Price will prove a decent #3/4 WR. Branch is long in the tooth, does he have 1 more year in him?
    At WR, I think BB does 2 things; 1-goes with a veteran. There are plently to be had in FA next year. One of which I really like in Marques Colston from NO. 2. Drafts a WR someplace after the 3rd round. This will most likely be a developmental player, backfilling Edelman after he is cut.

    To boil it all down, here is my plan for better or worse....
    FA
    1. Sign Roth or Mathis (low/high end of pay scale) to play opposite Carter.
    2. Sign Marques Colston from NO. Big physical WR that presents match up challenges for CBs. This is if we don't resign Welker. Each will require big money, it depends on how BB wants to invest in the position given we have 2-3 guys that might be able to play great in the slot, and we don't have much outside. We could also draft Broyles in round 2 to replace Welker or Branch. Question is how do you invest in the WR position going forward?

    Draft (with no trades)
    Round 1a /> Manti Te'O LB (the trio of Mayo, Spikes, Manti) is a beautiful thing. If not Manti, I'm looking at Kuechly or possibly even Zach Brown here as well.
    Bottomline, I want to see an upgrade to our LB corps as well as DL, and don't see a DL worthy here at the moment. Your getting something different with all 3 of these LB prospects. I think each would be nice compliments to Mayo and Spikes. Brown brings the speed plus productino, Manti is a tackling machine and strong, and Kuechly is a bit of everything. Brown is a bit small however if we want to use him in more 3-4 looks. He does however have safety/CB speed...could be that tweener BB likes and play both positions depending on scheme.

    Round 1b /> Jerel Worthy DT (i like him in the rotation and he's an insurance policy incase Haynesworth, Ellils, Warren don't return). I like him starting inside with Vince and using Pryor/Love as depth)

    Round 2a /> T.J. McDonald (FS) Like him opposite Chung.

    Round 2b > Ryan Broyles (WR)??????? This is my toughest choice at the moment......This is a tough one depending on how we invest in the WR position going forward. Meaning, investing more inside the numbers (Welker) or outside the numbers (Colston/Jackson, etc.) and using what we have to play inside (Hern/Vereen/Edleman).

    Round 3 /> Coby Fleener (TE)....Perhaps a bit early for this position given we have Hern and Gronk, but it depends on what we do with Welker and how we use Hern going forward. 
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    I dread every draft from BB.
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]I agree with Pats7393 and PatsEng. Our hits/misses in the draft are well documented. Because of the misses, we'll need to probably dedicate a couple of more picks to the secondary (S&CB) unless BB thinks Moulden/Adams are either starting caliber or strong contributing CBs. I personally don't see it. I think we need a good #2 CB because I'm not putting any stock at this poinnt in Ras and Arrington to me is actually better at the star position. Safety is an interesting position. I don't have much faith in Brown or Barrett. Idehigbo is okay, but he's too much in the mold of Chung and Barrett (not good cover safeties). We need a more natural cover safety to compliment Chung, or draft a stout CB and make him a Safety. Someone that comes in with cover skills because of playing CB but with the size to play safety. Really just a bigger CB, somewhere in the 215/220 range with some speed and instinct. Takes me to PatsEng point...I too agree that DL/DE is a key position of need. The question is do we draft a 4-3 DT/DE or a bigger 3-4 DE who can also play in the interior? My feeling is we look at pure 4-3 DT's/DE's. Brace can fill in at 3-4 End if we need him (assuming he is healthy), and I like the Pats a bit better when they are running 4+ man lines. Crick is an interesting name to watch, but I think there are many others depending on how much of a need we think this is. I also like Vin Curry. I mentioned his name about 10 pages ago, a kid I would keep an eye on. Also, let us not forget FA here. Roth was mentioned. Another name is Mathis from Indy. Big money for him, but can you imagine either Roth or Mathis opposite Carter? I think Carter needs to be extended for another year. He's good against the run and also can rush. Roth gives you a bit more flexibility as he can play 3-4 OLB, but Mathis is a monster pass rusher. Depends on how much $$$ we want to dedicate to that position. LB is another story. Frankly the only 2 LB's that I like, and worthy of "starter" are Mayo and Spikes. It would be nice to draft Manti Te'O with one of our firsts and put him next to Spikes. A trio of Mayo/Spikes/Manti would be just want the doctor ordered. That is a significant upgrade at LB, and we have Fletcher, Guyton and Nink as depth which is where they belong. On to offense....I'm curious if the Pats resign Welker. Somethign tells me he walks. OR maybe the Pats are not as interested as we believe? IF he walks, could we see Hernandez/Vereen/Edelman(if he's not cut) play Welker's role in the slot? I kind of like the 2 or 3 of them sharing this position. I think each present match up challenges like Welker with a bit more strength to muscle off jams at the line. I think Wes is more easily interrupted at the line than if you compare him to Hernandez or Vereen for example. Problem is Vereen is not proven in this role, but I'm pretty confident he could do it if molded and coached up. He has the quicks, speed, hands and strength. If Hern is used more in this mold (full time in the slot), I want the kid from Stanford (Fleener) that MB and I mentioned earlier. He paired with Gronk would be nice. THat is 2 very big, good inline blocking and pass catching TE's on the outside. Power run game with options here we come. I think Fleener can be had in the 2nd/3rd round. This takes us to the outside. I thiink the Ocho experiement is over after this season if we wait that long. Price should be getting all of Ocho's reps at this point. I think Price will prove a decent #3/4 WR. Branch is long in the tooth, does he have 1 more year in him? At WR, I think BB does 2 things; 1-goes with a veteran. There are plently to be had in FA next year. One of which I really like in Marques Colston from NO. 2. Drafts a WR someplace after the 3rd round. This will most likely be a developmental player, backfilling Edelman after he is cut. To boil it all down, here is my plan for better or worse.... FA 1. Sign Roth or Mathis (low/high end of pay scale) to play opposite Carter. 2. Sign Marques Colston from NO. Big physical WR that presents match up challenges for CBs. This is if we don't resign Welker. Each will require big money, it depends on how BB wants to invest in the position given we have 2-3 guys that might be able to play great in the slot, and we don't have much outside. We could also draft Broyles in round 2 to replace Welker or Branch. Question is how do you invest in the WR position going forward? Draft (with no trades) Round 1a /> Manti Te'O LB (the trio of Mayo, Spikes, Manti) is a beautiful thing. If not Manti, I'm looking at Kuechly or possibly even Zach Brown here as well. Bottomline, I want to see an upgrade to our LB corps as well as DL, and don't see a DL worthy here at the moment. Your getting something different with all 3 of these LB prospects. I think each would be nice compliments to Mayo and Spikes. Brown brings the speed plus productino, Manti is a tackling machine and strong, and Kuechly is a bit of everything. Brown is a bit small however if we want to use him in more 3-4 looks. He does however have safety/CB speed...could be that tweener BB likes and play both positions depending on scheme. Round 1b /> Jerel Worthy DT (i like him in the rotation and he's an insurance policy incase Haynesworth, Ellils, Warren don't return). I like him starting inside with Vince and using Pryor/Love as depth) Round 2a /> T.J. McDonald (FS) Like him opposite Chung. Round 2b /> Ryan Broyles (WR)??????? This is my toughest choice at the moment......This is a tough one depending on how we invest in the WR position going forward. Meaning, investing more inside the numbers (Welker) or outside the numbers (Colston/Jackson, etc.) and using what we have to play inside (Hern/Vereen/Edleman). Round 3 /> Coby Fleener (TE)....Perhaps a bit early for this position given we have Hern and Gronk, but it depends on what we do with Welker and how we use Hern going forward. 
    Posted by PatsLifer[/QUOTE]


    not one of the stud Center's in this draft? no big CB?
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : You know what's scary. If you go by pure numbers the regulars in this forum have hit on as many picks as BB has recently. Now please before I get jumped on let me say that I'm going by pure numbers production wise and this does not reflect at all how a certain player will fit into a system or even be productive in that system. Actually the players that this forum picks tend to go to teams that will best utilize their abilities so the numbers are skewed towards our favor. And, by no means do I believe I could be a NFL scout but it is kind of scary that people behind a keyboard with only our eyes and scouting reports can pick about the same % of successful players in the league then BB does for his whole team, in the early rounds, with all the resources BB has.
    Posted by PatsEng[/QUOTE]

    I'm a regular at draft time here and while nobody should claim to be able to pick 'em like the pro's, there were a couple moves in the last 3 years that should have been no-brainers and the majority of people here knew it.

    2009 - Clay Matthews over Butler, Tate and Edelman (and eventually the pick used on Gronk... but he could have been picked up still w/ '10 finangeling) is the biggest gaff

    Trading UP (blowing a 4th/6th) to get Brace, when he was simply Wilfork insurance/contract leverage and the man had deserved to be locked up at market value even before the draft. Brace has been a bust.

    2010 - they were only 5 picks away from Gronk, they could have traded up from 47 to get him, instead of trading back down to take Spikes/Price

    2010 - Then Dunlap instead of Cunningham (or probably Spikes 8 picks earlier, since we'd have a good rusher in Matthews)

    2011 - Right now I am really just bummed that we didn't learn our lesson with a glass CB in Wheatley and took Ras-I over Akeem Ayers and that Vareen was deemed a need when Woodhead was a pass-catching RB and Faulk had vowed to rehab and return.





     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***


    I think we can grab a Center, but I'm looking a bit later for this position.

    Also, it makes me sick to grab yet another corner in this draft given we have burned a high 2nd last year, a 1st the year before, then a 2nd, 2nd, 4th, etc and only have really 1 to show who is playing and 1 on the shelf.

    I am hopeful Ras gets healthy and is the full time starter opposite McCourty next year. Arrington to play the star, Moulden/Adams as dime backs and depth. It all rests on Ras however. If we don't want to take the risk, perhaps we bring in another vet to compliment McCourty on the other side while we wait and see what Ras is made of. Mathis from Jacksonville would fit the bill.
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    Patslifer, that was a great draft and discussion.

    As far as C and CB are concerned I'm thinking we have to go with a Center myself. The Raiders pick would be a good one to nab the last 1 of the 4 elite guys who drops to us. Ben Jones seems to be ideal, not too tall to get in Brady's way (maybe like Brewster) and a mean streak in him.

    I think we HAVE TO add a DB in free agency. I have said so many times here there are safeties like Michael Griffin, Dashon Goldson, Charles Godfrey and Tyvon Branch who will be available. There are CB's like Tracy Porter, Rashean Mathis, Brandon Carr who will be FA's and Asante is going to be cut.

    Add a CB, draft a S if we add a S, draft a CB. I think we have the option of turning Ras-I, who is 6'1" 200lbs into a FS like the one you were looking to draft, a cover CB with size. But with his inuury history just depend on him as a backup until he has an entire season if health, esp if you may switch his position.

    If we get an elite/expensive veteran DB (6-7m per) then we should sign Roth (3-4m per) and draft aD-line guy rd 1, like Worthy. If we get a less expensive DB (3-4m per) then we should sign Mathis (6-7m per) and draft a linebacker.


     
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    It would be cool if Broyles falls all the way to our own 2nd rd pick as I see him, like others here, as a great Brady reciever who can do a lot of what Troy/Deion/Gaffney/Welker did here for so many years. His one handed TD grab last weekend was awesome.

    I agree with you that we have the personel to replace Welker easier than we do of getting a Colston, Jackson or Dwayne Bowe guy cheap or thru the draft... so we may have to sacrifice Wes to sign an 8-10 million a year WR.

    Hopefully the Edelman thing blows over so we can go cheap in the slot and short game. With him, Vereen, Woodhead, Broyles, Hernandez and Branch/Faulk factoring in, I'm sure Brady would rather have a star deep threat outside the line WR to replace Ocho with than Wes if he really told you the truth.

    Those are enough guys to play the short-pass no-huddle dink-and dunk 5-wide that is Brady's bread and butter.... if you have a great in his prime 6'4" all-pro lined up outside as well.
     
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    Finally, could this PLEASE be the draft where Bill sacrifices a future number one to get a current 2nd rd pick?

    If someone like Jenkins or Crick fall and we can offer say our 2013 1st (likely 27-32 overall) and our 4th rd pick... for like pick 36-44 (or 44-56 w/o the 4th tossed in).... and nail an impact guy... shouldn't we do that?

    I want to leave the draft with:

    - TWO elite pass rushers (doesn't matter LB/DT/DE)

    - a cover/ballhawk DB (doesn't matter CB/FS)

    - One of the 4 best Centers

    - Ryan Broyles

    That is FIVE pick in the 25-60 range, so IMO we need to move into that range somehow for 1 more pick.

    This team has depth, it needs TALENT.... add 2-4 REALLY good FA's and keep the guys we like and this team is stacked for the rest of Tom's career
     
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    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : not one of the stud Center's in this draft? no big CB?
    Posted by natesubs[/QUOTE]

    I think because of how well Connolly has done it lessens the need for one early.  I also have concerns which are well documented of Konz injuries.  OC can be found into the 3rd round or 4th IMO. Looks like a good front 7 draft so a ton of those guys will go pushing down some OL.

    In the 3rd or 4th, either Brewster, Jones or Molk should be available but the guy I'm looking hard at is Phillip Blake in the 5th or 6th (they'll get picks for those rounds I know they don't have them going in).

    Phillip Blake 6'2" 320lbs, will be 26 years of age in November so a bit older than most.  Goes to Baylor, he's not asked to pull a lot but has.  Really strong dude, will not have problems with NTs has also played OT so could play RT in a bind as well as guard.  I'm really hopping this kid is scouted by the Pats.

    He's a stronger run blocker than pass protection but does both well.  
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    I just  don't see anyway Brewster is there till the 3rd or Jones till the 4th
     
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    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]Patslifer, that was a great draft and discussion. As far as C and CB are concerned I'm thinking we have to go with a Center myself. The Raiders pick would be a good one to nab the last 1 of the 4 elite guys who drops to us. Ben Jones seems to be ideal, not too tall to get in Brady's way (maybe like Brewster) and a mean streak in him. I think we HAVE TO add a DB in free agency. I have said so many times here there are safeties like Michael Griffin, Dashon Goldson, Charles Godfrey and Tyvon Branch who will be available. There are CB's like Tracy Porter, Rashean Mathis, Brandon Carr who will be FA's and Asante is going to be cut. Add a CB, draft a S if we add a S, draft a CB. I think we have the option of turning Ras-I, who is 6'1" 200lbs into a FS like the one you were looking to draft, a cover CB with size. But with his inuury history just depend on him as a backup until he has an entire season if health, esp if you may switch his position. If we get an elite/expensive veteran DB (6-7m per) then we should sign Roth (3-4m per) and draft aD-line guy rd 1, like Worthy. If we get a less expensive DB (3-4m per) then we should sign Mathis (6-7m per) and draft a linebacker.
    Posted by rameakap[/QUOTE]

    Thanks.
    I think there are some quality FA's next year at positions of need. We need to open up the wallet a bit, but I would love to have a veteran corner opposite McCourty like Mathis from Jacksonville than drafting another young kid to play corner. If we do that, then I want to draft a FS. I like T.J. McDonald personally. He next to Chung, Mathis next to McCourty sounds about right. Add in Ras and Arrington, and that is a nice defensive backfield.

    I think what we do at WR is probably the most compelling story to follow here. So many want us to resign Welker, and I'm one of them. However, it depends on what he wants money wise. If he takes a team friendly contract, I am inclined to do it. If not, I let him walk. I now he is Brady's binkie, but so what.
    I know I mentioned Colston in a previous post, and I like him. He is that big, strong WR that we might need on the outside. We have really nothing outside unless PRice shows up...jury out so far. Even still, he's not Colston just yet. So, it depends on what we want to do with that position.

    Half of me wants to make the full transition to 2 big TE's with Hern out there as well. This is why I want Fleener. He is in the mold of Gronk. Imagine Gronk and Fleener on the line, Hern in the backfield lead blocking, with Vereen or Ridley running the ball. OR using the same personnel, split Gronk and Fleener out wide, Hern in the slot, Vereen in motion or in the other slot. 2 totally different formations using the exact same personnel. I want to see players we can use llike this. This to me (if O'Brien can unscrew his head), is exactly the type of unpredictability this offense is lacking.

    We could still go get Colston, and have somethign totally differnet with he and Price out there together. Options, options.

    Back to defense. I like Worthy with the 2nd of our 1st rounders. He and Vince woudl be a nice duo, with Roth and Carter flanking them. Round it out with Manti, Kuechly or Zach Brown mixed with Mayo/Spikes and the backfield we talked about above and I think that defense has a very different feel to it.

    Now, that pretty much sums up what I would do in FA and via the draft next year. I'm still debating who I can grab beyond round 3 at Center that can provide depth or eventually takeover for Conolly. Any ideas of who is available say round 4-7 at Center that is worth looking at?
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]Finally, could this PLEASE be the draft where Bill sacrifices a future number one to get a current 2nd rd pick? If someone like Jenkins or Crick fall and we can offer say our 2013 1st (likely 27-32 overall) and our 4th rd pick... for like pick 36-44 (or 44-56 w/o the 4th tossed in).... and nail an impact guy... shouldn't we do that? I want to leave the draft with: - TWO elite pass rushers (doesn't matter LB/DT/DE) - a cover/ballhawk DB (doesn't matter CB/FS) - One of the 4 best Centers - Ryan Broyles That is FIVE pick in the 25-60 range, so IMO we need to move into that range somehow for 1 more pick. This team has depth, it needs TALENT.... add 2-4 REALLY good FA's and keep the guys we like and this team is stacked for the rest of Tom's career
    Posted by rameakap[/QUOTE]

    I've never seen BB sacrifice a future 1st for a current 2nd. That would be totally out of character unless, unless, someone amazing slipped to the 2nd round and it was a no brainer. I don't see it happening. If anything, he does what he's been doing for the past 5+ years..trade out, trade back, pick up some for the future. I hate saying that, but history proves it.

     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : You know what's scary. If you go by pure numbers the regulars in this forum have hit on as many picks as BB has recently. Now please before I get jumped on let me say that I'm going by pure numbers production wise and this does not reflect at all how a certain player will fit into a system or even be productive in that system. Actually the players that this forum picks tend to go to teams that will best utilize their abilities so the numbers are skewed towards our favor. And, by no means do I believe I could be a NFL scout but it is kind of scary that people behind a keyboard with only our eyes and scouting reports can pick about the same % of successful players in the league then BB does for his whole team, in the early rounds, with all the resources BB has.
    Posted by PatsEng[/QUOTE]

    eng,
       "but it is kind of scary that people behind a keyboard with only our eyes and scouting reports can pick about the same % of successful players in the league then BB does for his whole team, in the early rounds, with all the resources BB has. "

    actually i think the ability to pick players that will succeed better than the pats staff at some positions. yes people here, and other poeple in the industry  have been able to do that. i have posted this elsewhere, and many fans just dont have the eyes to see it, and therefore think i am crazy. thats ok, if they dont see it after i and others maybe too have been saying it for at least a year, and you have the draft and the subsequent years that have gone by. its just  case that because he is bb, and because he is a gm, no-one could actually make a better chocie of who would succeed or who would make this team better. i tell you what. have you seen kerrigan year this year? aldon smith's? we would certainly look better on d if we had a ryan kerrigan. and on and on.
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : I thought the same thing when I saw an article of all the missed players recently.  But what also frustraste me is looking at players that have been drafted right after the Pats have drafted a player.  Perfect example and most frustrating to me is Mike Wallace Pats select Brandon Tate Steelers very next pick select Wallace.  Coming out of college was not a good route runner but has surely turned into a very good one he's not just a 1 or 2 route guy.  Another one with a WR Pats select Kevin O'Connell the next pick by Giants Mario Manningham he's done well in NFL. I think something is going on with player development, players are not getting the teaching IMO for them to progress quickly.  I see rooks making huge impacts for teams but Pats rookies are not used.  We have two rookie RBs, one has been hurt but is healthy now O'Brian give them a few touches see what type of spark they provide.  Same with Price, he's not up to part in a full route three fine put him in specific situations with those routes he's got down.  Just think coaching is hurting some of these guys, outside OL.
    Posted by Pats7393[/QUOTE]

    73,
    re:"
    Just think coaching is hurting some of these guys,"

    i have said that explicitly since joining the board last year.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : Upshaw, Curry, and Lester would be a dream draft for me right now. However, I don't think both Upshaw and Curry make it to our 1st pick. I think it would be one of the other and right now I'd rather have Curry. I just prefer players closer to being a DL then closer to a LB. I'm always under the assumption that pass rush starts in the trenches and ripples out. I'm not sure Lester makes it to Oak's pick. It looks like Oak might actually a shot to make the post-season so their pick might be later in the 2nd and I don't see Lester making out of the mid 2nd, given the bad S play around the league. But I'd dance for joy at this point if we could get them all
    Posted by PatsEng[/QUOTE]


    we would be lucky if we get 1 (and the way the organiz picks, probably none.). we better keep losing if you want curry. obviously i mean i think he will be gone.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from brdbreu. Show brdbreu's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]I agree with Pats7393 and PatsEng. Our hits/misses in the draft are well documented. Because of the misses, we'll need to probably dedicate a couple of more picks to the secondary (S&CB) unless BB thinks Moulden/Adams are either starting caliber or strong contributing CBs. I personally don't see it. I think we need a good #2 CB because I'm not putting any stock at this poinnt in Ras and Arrington to me is actually better at the star position. Safety is an interesting position. I don't have much faith in Brown or Barrett. Idehigbo is okay, but he's too much in the mold of Chung and Barrett (not good cover safeties). We need a more natural cover safety to compliment Chung, or draft a stout CB and make him a Safety. Someone that comes in with cover skills because of playing CB but with the size to play safety. Really just a bigger CB, somewhere in the 215/220 range with some speed and instinct. Takes me to PatsEng point...I too agree that DL/DE is a key position of need. The question is do we draft a 4-3 DT/DE or a bigger 3-4 DE who can also play in the interior? My feeling is we look at pure 4-3 DT's/DE's. Brace can fill in at 3-4 End if we need him (assuming he is healthy), and I like the Pats a bit better when they are running 4+ man lines. Crick is an interesting name to watch, but I think there are many others depending on how much of a need we think this is. I also like Vin Curry. I mentioned his name about 10 pages ago, a kid I would keep an eye on. Also, let us not forget FA here. Roth was mentioned. Another name is Mathis from Indy. Big money for him, but can you imagine either Roth or Mathis opposite Carter? I think Carter needs to be extended for another year. He's good against the run and also can rush. Roth gives you a bit more flexibility as he can play 3-4 OLB, but Mathis is a monster pass rusher. Depends on how much $$$ we want to dedicate to that position. LB is another story. Frankly the only 2 LB's that I like, and worthy of "starter" are Mayo and Spikes. It would be nice to draft Manti Te'O with one of our firsts and put him next to Spikes. A trio of Mayo/Spikes/Manti would be just want the doctor ordered. That is a significant upgrade at LB, and we have Fletcher, Guyton and Nink as depth which is where they belong. On to offense....I'm curious if the Pats resign Welker. Somethign tells me he walks. OR maybe the Pats are not as interested as we believe? IF he walks, could we see Hernandez/Vereen/Edelman(if he's not cut) play Welker's role in the slot? I kind of like the 2 or 3 of them sharing this position. I think each present match up challenges like Welker with a bit more strength to muscle off jams at the line. I think Wes is more easily interrupted at the line than if you compare him to Hernandez or Vereen for example. Problem is Vereen is not proven in this role, but I'm pretty confident he could do it if molded and coached up. He has the quicks, speed, hands and strength. If Hern is used more in this mold (full time in the slot), I want the kid from Stanford (Fleener) that MB and I mentioned earlier. He paired with Gronk would be nice. THat is 2 very big, good inline blocking and pass catching TE's on the outside. Power run game with options here we come. I think Fleener can be had in the 2nd/3rd round. This takes us to the outside. I thiink the Ocho experiement is over after this season if we wait that long. Price should be getting all of Ocho's reps at this point. I think Price will prove a decent #3/4 WR. Branch is long in the tooth, does he have 1 more year in him? At WR, I think BB does 2 things; 1-goes with a veteran. There are plently to be had in FA next year. One of which I really like in Marques Colston from NO. 2. Drafts a WR someplace after the 3rd round. This will most likely be a developmental player, backfilling Edelman after he is cut. To boil it all down, here is my plan for better or worse.... FA 1. Sign Roth or Mathis (low/high end of pay scale) to play opposite Carter. 2. Sign Marques Colston from NO. Big physical WR that presents match up challenges for CBs. This is if we don't resign Welker. Each will require big money, it depends on how BB wants to invest in the position given we have 2-3 guys that might be able to play great in the slot, and we don't have much outside. We could also draft Broyles in round 2 to replace Welker or Branch. Question is how do you invest in the WR position going forward? Draft (with no trades) Round 1a /> Manti Te'O LB (the trio of Mayo, Spikes, Manti) is a beautiful thing. If not Manti, I'm looking at Kuechly or possibly even Zach Brown here as well. Bottomline, I want to see an upgrade to our LB corps as well as DL, and don't see a DL worthy here at the moment. Your getting something different with all 3 of these LB prospects. I think each would be nice compliments to Mayo and Spikes. Brown brings the speed plus productino, Manti is a tackling machine and strong, and Kuechly is a bit of everything. Brown is a bit small however if we want to use him in more 3-4 looks. He does however have safety/CB speed...could be that tweener BB likes and play both positions depending on scheme. Round 1b /> Jerel Worthy DT (i like him in the rotation and he's an insurance policy incase Haynesworth, Ellils, Warren don't return). I like him starting inside with Vince and using Pryor/Love as depth) Round 2a /> T.J. McDonald (FS) Like him opposite Chung. Round 2b /> Ryan Broyles (WR)??????? This is my toughest choice at the moment......This is a tough one depending on how we invest in the WR position going forward. Meaning, investing more inside the numbers (Welker) or outside the numbers (Colston/Jackson, etc.) and using what we have to play inside (Hern/Vereen/Edleman). Round 3 /> Coby Fleener (TE)....Perhaps a bit early for this position given we have Hern and Gronk, but it depends on what we do with Welker and how we use Hern going forward. 
    Posted by PatsLifer[/QUOTE]


    som eof the saem guys i have been interested in. althofro me, the outside the #s receiver and rb threat to run the field are not optional regardless of what we do at slot receiver.

    great post lifer and the others on this page!
    if only bb had as good a brain trust. :)


    (bredbru/brdbreu)
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from brdbreu. Show brdbreu's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]I dread every draft from BB.
    Posted by CubanPete[/QUOTE]



    preachin to the choir man....
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from brdbreu. Show brdbreu's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : not one of the stud Center's in this draft? no big CB?
    Posted by natesubs[/QUOTE]


    we obviously need the cover ball hawk cb in draft(much cheaper, but higher cost in picks when we need all we have)) or fa (older vet?).

    and we obviously need the center ditto (in draft or fa)
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from brdbreu. Show brdbreu's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : I'm a regular at draft time here and while nobody should claim to be able to pick 'em like the pro's, there were a couple moves in the last 3 years that should have been no-brainers and the majority of people here knew it. 2009 - Clay Matthews over Butler, Tate and Edelman (and eventually the pick used on Gronk... but he could have been picked up still w/ '10 finangeling) is the biggest gaff Trading UP (blowing a 4th/6th) to get Brace, when he was simply Wilfork insurance/contract leverage and the man had deserved to be locked up at market value even before the draft. Brace has been a bust. 2010 - they were only 5 picks away from Gronk, they could have traded up from 47 to get him, instead of trading back down to take Spikes/Price 2010 - Then Dunlap instead of Cunningham (or probably Spikes 8 picks earlier, since we'd have a good rusher in Matthews) 2011 - Right now I am really just bummed that we didn't learn our lesson with a glass CB in Wheatley and took Ras-I over Akeem Ayers and that Vareen was deemed a need when Woodhead was a pass-catching RB and Faulk had vowed to rehab and return.
    Posted by rameakap[/QUOTE]

    re:
    "2011 - Right now I am really just bummed that we didn't learn our lesson with a glass CB in Wheatley and took Ras-I over Akeem Ayers and that Vareen was deemed a need when Woodhead was a pass-catching RB and Faulk had vowed to rehab and return."

    a lot to be disappointed in when you can actually see the mistakes we make year to year.

    only concern with ras was could we rule out physical issues going forward. performance was there. i trusted bill to make that call. frankly im not willing to mark ras as a guy that will never hold up, because because he had a ligament injury this year. jury out for me.


    still injuries happen. what bb has done at cb and safety from last year to this is the reason we are so poor off. not just because we had a season ending injury at cb.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from brdbreu. Show brdbreu's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]I think we can grab a Center, but I'm looking a bit later for this position. Also, it makes me sick to grab yet another corner in this draft given we have burned a high 2nd last year, a 1st the year before, then a 2nd, 2nd, 4th, etc and only have really 1 to show who is playing and 1 on the shelf. I am hopeful Ras gets healthy and is the full time starter opposite McCourty next year. Arrington to play the star, Moulden/Adams as dime backs and depth. It all rests on Ras however. If we don't want to take the risk, perhaps we bring in another vet to compliment McCourty on the other side while we wait and see what Ras is made of. Mathis from Jacksonville would fit the bill.
    Posted by PatsLifer[/QUOTE]

    i'm wiht you  exactly on the cb issue.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from brdbreu. Show brdbreu's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]Patslifer, that was a great draft and discussion. As far as C and CB are concerned I'm thinking we have to go with a Center myself. The Raiders pick would be a good one to nab the last 1 of the 4 elite guys who drops to us. Ben Jones seems to be ideal, not too tall to get in Brady's way (maybe like Brewster) and a mean streak in him. I think we HAVE TO add a DB in free agency. I have said so many times here there are safeties like Michael Griffin, Dashon Goldson, Charles Godfrey and Tyvon Branch who will be available. There are CB's like Tracy Porter, Rashean Mathis, Brandon Carr who will be FA's and Asante is going to be cut. Add a CB, draft a S if we add a S, draft a CB. I think we have the option of turning Ras-I, who is 6'1" 200lbs into a FS like the one you were looking to draft, a cover CB with size. But with his inuury history just depend on him as a backup until he has an entire season if health, esp if you may switch his position. If we get an elite/expensive veteran DB (6-7m per) then we should sign Roth (3-4m per) and draft aD-line guy rd 1, like Worthy. If we get a less expensive DB (3-4m per) then we should sign Mathis (6-7m per) and draft a linebacker.
    Posted by rameakap[/QUOTE]


    If we get an elite/expensive veteran DB (6-7m per) then we should sign Roth (3-4m per) and draft aD-line guy rd 1, like Worthy. If we get a less expensive DB (3-4m per) then we should sign Mathis (6-7m per) and draft a linebacker.

    i prefer the latter.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from brdbreu. Show brdbreu's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]It would be cool if Broyles falls all the way to our own 2nd rd pick as I see him, like others here, as a great Brady reciever who can do a lot of what Troy/Deion/Gaffney/Welker did here for so many years. His one handed TD grab last weekend was awesome. I agree with you that we have the personel to replace Welker easier than we do of getting a Colston, Jackson or Dwayne Bowe guy cheap or thru the draft... so we may have to sacrifice Wes to sign an 8-10 million a year WR. Hopefully the Edelman thing blows over so we can go cheap in the slot and short game. With him, Vereen, Woodhead, Broyles, Hernandez and Branch/Faulk factoring in, I'm sure Brady would rather have a star deep threat outside the line WR to replace Ocho with than Wes if he really told you the truth. Those are enough guys to play the short-pass no-huddle dink-and dunk 5-wide that is Brady's bread and butter.... if you have a great in his prime 6'4" all-pro lined up outside as well.
    Posted by rameakap[/QUOTE]

    re:
    "Brady would rather have a star deep threat outside the line WR to replace Ocho with than Wes if he really told you the truth."

    if brady doesnt agree it doenst matter. he will like it when the offense is impossible to be shut down.
     

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