***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! THANKS TO ALL WHO PARTICIPATED!

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : You know what's scary. If you go by pure numbers the regulars in this forum have hit on as many picks as BB has recently. Now please before I get jumped on let me say that I'm going by pure numbers production wise and this does not reflect at all how a certain player will fit into a system or even be productive in that system. Actually the players that this forum picks tend to go to teams that will best utilize their abilities so the numbers are skewed towards our favor. And, by no means do I believe I could be a NFL scout but it is kind of scary that people behind a keyboard with only our eyes and scouting reports can pick about the same % of successful players in the league then BB does for his whole team, in the early rounds, with all the resources BB has.
    Posted by PatsEng

    eng,
       "but it is kind of scary that people behind a keyboard with only our eyes and scouting reports can pick about the same % of successful players in the league then BB does for his whole team, in the early rounds, with all the resources BB has. "

    actually i think the ability to pick players that will succeed better than the pats staff at some positions. yes people here, and other poeple in the industry  have been able to do that. i have posted this elsewhere, and many fans just dont have the eyes to see it, and therefore think i am crazy. thats ok, if they dont see it after i and others maybe too have been saying it for at least a year, and you have the draft and the subsequent years that have gone by. its just  case that because he is bb, and because he is a gm, no-one could actually make a better chocie of who would succeed or who would make this team better. i tell you what. have you seen kerrigan year this year? aldon smith's? we would certainly look better on d if we had a ryan kerrigan. and on and on.
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : I thought the same thing when I saw an article of all the missed players recently.  But what also frustraste me is looking at players that have been drafted right after the Pats have drafted a player.  Perfect example and most frustrating to me is Mike Wallace Pats select Brandon Tate Steelers very next pick select Wallace.  Coming out of college was not a good route runner but has surely turned into a very good one he's not just a 1 or 2 route guy.  Another one with a WR Pats select Kevin O'Connell the next pick by Giants Mario Manningham he's done well in NFL. I think something is going on with player development, players are not getting the teaching IMO for them to progress quickly.  I see rooks making huge impacts for teams but Pats rookies are not used.  We have two rookie RBs, one has been hurt but is healthy now O'Brian give them a few touches see what type of spark they provide.  Same with Price, he's not up to part in a full route three fine put him in specific situations with those routes he's got down.  Just think coaching is hurting some of these guys, outside OL.
    Posted by Pats7393

    73,
    re:"
    Just think coaching is hurting some of these guys,"

    i have said that explicitly since joining the board last year.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : Upshaw, Curry, and Lester would be a dream draft for me right now. However, I don't think both Upshaw and Curry make it to our 1st pick. I think it would be one of the other and right now I'd rather have Curry. I just prefer players closer to being a DL then closer to a LB. I'm always under the assumption that pass rush starts in the trenches and ripples out. I'm not sure Lester makes it to Oak's pick. It looks like Oak might actually a shot to make the post-season so their pick might be later in the 2nd and I don't see Lester making out of the mid 2nd, given the bad S play around the league. But I'd dance for joy at this point if we could get them all
    Posted by PatsEng



    we would be lucky if we get 1 (and the way the organiz picks, probably none.). we better keep losing if you want curry. obviously i mean i think he will be gone.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from brdbreu. Show brdbreu's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    I agree with Pats7393 and PatsEng. Our hits/misses in the draft are well documented. Because of the misses, we'll need to probably dedicate a couple of more picks to the secondary (S&CB) unless BB thinks Moulden/Adams are either starting caliber or strong contributing CBs. I personally don't see it. I think we need a good #2 CB because I'm not putting any stock at this poinnt in Ras and Arrington to me is actually better at the star position. Safety is an interesting position. I don't have much faith in Brown or Barrett. Idehigbo is okay, but he's too much in the mold of Chung and Barrett (not good cover safeties). We need a more natural cover safety to compliment Chung, or draft a stout CB and make him a Safety. Someone that comes in with cover skills because of playing CB but with the size to play safety. Really just a bigger CB, somewhere in the 215/220 range with some speed and instinct. Takes me to PatsEng point...I too agree that DL/DE is a key position of need. The question is do we draft a 4-3 DT/DE or a bigger 3-4 DE who can also play in the interior? My feeling is we look at pure 4-3 DT's/DE's. Brace can fill in at 3-4 End if we need him (assuming he is healthy), and I like the Pats a bit better when they are running 4+ man lines. Crick is an interesting name to watch, but I think there are many others depending on how much of a need we think this is. I also like Vin Curry. I mentioned his name about 10 pages ago, a kid I would keep an eye on. Also, let us not forget FA here. Roth was mentioned. Another name is Mathis from Indy. Big money for him, but can you imagine either Roth or Mathis opposite Carter? I think Carter needs to be extended for another year. He's good against the run and also can rush. Roth gives you a bit more flexibility as he can play 3-4 OLB, but Mathis is a monster pass rusher. Depends on how much $$$ we want to dedicate to that position. LB is another story. Frankly the only 2 LB's that I like, and worthy of "starter" are Mayo and Spikes. It would be nice to draft Manti Te'O with one of our firsts and put him next to Spikes. A trio of Mayo/Spikes/Manti would be just want the doctor ordered. That is a significant upgrade at LB, and we have Fletcher, Guyton and Nink as depth which is where they belong. On to offense....I'm curious if the Pats resign Welker. Somethign tells me he walks. OR maybe the Pats are not as interested as we believe? IF he walks, could we see Hernandez/Vereen/Edelman(if he's not cut) play Welker's role in the slot? I kind of like the 2 or 3 of them sharing this position. I think each present match up challenges like Welker with a bit more strength to muscle off jams at the line. I think Wes is more easily interrupted at the line than if you compare him to Hernandez or Vereen for example. Problem is Vereen is not proven in this role, but I'm pretty confident he could do it if molded and coached up. He has the quicks, speed, hands and strength. If Hern is used more in this mold (full time in the slot), I want the kid from Stanford (Fleener) that MB and I mentioned earlier. He paired with Gronk would be nice. THat is 2 very big, good inline blocking and pass catching TE's on the outside. Power run game with options here we come. I think Fleener can be had in the 2nd/3rd round. This takes us to the outside. I thiink the Ocho experiement is over after this season if we wait that long. Price should be getting all of Ocho's reps at this point. I think Price will prove a decent #3/4 WR. Branch is long in the tooth, does he have 1 more year in him? At WR, I think BB does 2 things; 1-goes with a veteran. There are plently to be had in FA next year. One of which I really like in Marques Colston from NO. 2. Drafts a WR someplace after the 3rd round. This will most likely be a developmental player, backfilling Edelman after he is cut. To boil it all down, here is my plan for better or worse.... FA 1. Sign Roth or Mathis (low/high end of pay scale) to play opposite Carter. 2. Sign Marques Colston from NO. Big physical WR that presents match up challenges for CBs. This is if we don't resign Welker. Each will require big money, it depends on how BB wants to invest in the position given we have 2-3 guys that might be able to play great in the slot, and we don't have much outside. We could also draft Broyles in round 2 to replace Welker or Branch. Question is how do you invest in the WR position going forward? Draft (with no trades) Round 1a /> Manti Te'O LB (the trio of Mayo, Spikes, Manti) is a beautiful thing. If not Manti, I'm looking at Kuechly or possibly even Zach Brown here as well. Bottomline, I want to see an upgrade to our LB corps as well as DL, and don't see a DL worthy here at the moment. Your getting something different with all 3 of these LB prospects. I think each would be nice compliments to Mayo and Spikes. Brown brings the speed plus productino, Manti is a tackling machine and strong, and Kuechly is a bit of everything. Brown is a bit small however if we want to use him in more 3-4 looks. He does however have safety/CB speed...could be that tweener BB likes and play both positions depending on scheme. Round 1b /> Jerel Worthy DT (i like him in the rotation and he's an insurance policy incase Haynesworth, Ellils, Warren don't return). I like him starting inside with Vince and using Pryor/Love as depth) Round 2a /> T.J. McDonald (FS) Like him opposite Chung. Round 2b /> Ryan Broyles (WR)??????? This is my toughest choice at the moment......This is a tough one depending on how we invest in the WR position going forward. Meaning, investing more inside the numbers (Welker) or outside the numbers (Colston/Jackson, etc.) and using what we have to play inside (Hern/Vereen/Edleman). Round 3 /> Coby Fleener (TE)....Perhaps a bit early for this position given we have Hern and Gronk, but it depends on what we do with Welker and how we use Hern going forward. 
    Posted by PatsLifer



    som eof the saem guys i have been interested in. althofro me, the outside the #s receiver and rb threat to run the field are not optional regardless of what we do at slot receiver.

    great post lifer and the others on this page!
    if only bb had as good a brain trust. :)


    (bredbru/brdbreu)
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from brdbreu. Show brdbreu's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    I dread every draft from BB.
    Posted by CubanPete




    preachin to the choir man....
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from brdbreu. Show brdbreu's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

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    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : not one of the stud Center's in this draft? no big CB?
    Posted by natesubs



    we obviously need the cover ball hawk cb in draft(much cheaper, but higher cost in picks when we need all we have)) or fa (older vet?).

    and we obviously need the center ditto (in draft or fa)
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from brdbreu. Show brdbreu's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : I'm a regular at draft time here and while nobody should claim to be able to pick 'em like the pro's, there were a couple moves in the last 3 years that should have been no-brainers and the majority of people here knew it. 2009 - Clay Matthews over Butler, Tate and Edelman (and eventually the pick used on Gronk... but he could have been picked up still w/ '10 finangeling) is the biggest gaff Trading UP (blowing a 4th/6th) to get Brace, when he was simply Wilfork insurance/contract leverage and the man had deserved to be locked up at market value even before the draft. Brace has been a bust. 2010 - they were only 5 picks away from Gronk, they could have traded up from 47 to get him, instead of trading back down to take Spikes/Price 2010 - Then Dunlap instead of Cunningham (or probably Spikes 8 picks earlier, since we'd have a good rusher in Matthews) 2011 - Right now I am really just bummed that we didn't learn our lesson with a glass CB in Wheatley and took Ras-I over Akeem Ayers and that Vareen was deemed a need when Woodhead was a pass-catching RB and Faulk had vowed to rehab and return.
    Posted by rameakap


    re:
    "2011 - Right now I am really just bummed that we didn't learn our lesson with a glass CB in Wheatley and took Ras-I over Akeem Ayers and that Vareen was deemed a need when Woodhead was a pass-catching RB and Faulk had vowed to rehab and return."

    a lot to be disappointed in when you can actually see the mistakes we make year to year.

    only concern with ras was could we rule out physical issues going forward. performance was there. i trusted bill to make that call. frankly im not willing to mark ras as a guy that will never hold up, because because he had a ligament injury this year. jury out for me.


    still injuries happen. what bb has done at cb and safety from last year to this is the reason we are so poor off. not just because we had a season ending injury at cb.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from brdbreu. Show brdbreu's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    I think we can grab a Center, but I'm looking a bit later for this position. Also, it makes me sick to grab yet another corner in this draft given we have burned a high 2nd last year, a 1st the year before, then a 2nd, 2nd, 4th, etc and only have really 1 to show who is playing and 1 on the shelf. I am hopeful Ras gets healthy and is the full time starter opposite McCourty next year. Arrington to play the star, Moulden/Adams as dime backs and depth. It all rests on Ras however. If we don't want to take the risk, perhaps we bring in another vet to compliment McCourty on the other side while we wait and see what Ras is made of. Mathis from Jacksonville would fit the bill.
    Posted by PatsLifer


    i'm wiht you  exactly on the cb issue.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from brdbreu. Show brdbreu's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    Patslifer, that was a great draft and discussion. As far as C and CB are concerned I'm thinking we have to go with a Center myself. The Raiders pick would be a good one to nab the last 1 of the 4 elite guys who drops to us. Ben Jones seems to be ideal, not too tall to get in Brady's way (maybe like Brewster) and a mean streak in him. I think we HAVE TO add a DB in free agency. I have said so many times here there are safeties like Michael Griffin, Dashon Goldson, Charles Godfrey and Tyvon Branch who will be available. There are CB's like Tracy Porter, Rashean Mathis, Brandon Carr who will be FA's and Asante is going to be cut. Add a CB, draft a S if we add a S, draft a CB. I think we have the option of turning Ras-I, who is 6'1" 200lbs into a FS like the one you were looking to draft, a cover CB with size. But with his inuury history just depend on him as a backup until he has an entire season if health, esp if you may switch his position. If we get an elite/expensive veteran DB (6-7m per) then we should sign Roth (3-4m per) and draft aD-line guy rd 1, like Worthy. If we get a less expensive DB (3-4m per) then we should sign Mathis (6-7m per) and draft a linebacker.
    Posted by rameakap



    If we get an elite/expensive veteran DB (6-7m per) then we should sign Roth (3-4m per) and draft aD-line guy rd 1, like Worthy. If we get a less expensive DB (3-4m per) then we should sign Mathis (6-7m per) and draft a linebacker.

    i prefer the latter.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from brdbreu. Show brdbreu's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    It would be cool if Broyles falls all the way to our own 2nd rd pick as I see him, like others here, as a great Brady reciever who can do a lot of what Troy/Deion/Gaffney/Welker did here for so many years. His one handed TD grab last weekend was awesome. I agree with you that we have the personel to replace Welker easier than we do of getting a Colston, Jackson or Dwayne Bowe guy cheap or thru the draft... so we may have to sacrifice Wes to sign an 8-10 million a year WR. Hopefully the Edelman thing blows over so we can go cheap in the slot and short game. With him, Vereen, Woodhead, Broyles, Hernandez and Branch/Faulk factoring in, I'm sure Brady would rather have a star deep threat outside the line WR to replace Ocho with than Wes if he really told you the truth. Those are enough guys to play the short-pass no-huddle dink-and dunk 5-wide that is Brady's bread and butter.... if you have a great in his prime 6'4" all-pro lined up outside as well.
    Posted by rameakap


    re:
    "Brady would rather have a star deep threat outside the line WR to replace Ocho with than Wes if he really told you the truth."

    if brady doesnt agree it doenst matter. he will like it when the offense is impossible to be shut down.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from brdbreu. Show brdbreu's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    It would be cool if Broyles falls all the way to our own 2nd rd pick as I see him, like others here, as a great Brady reciever who can do a lot of what Troy/Deion/Gaffney/Welker did here for so many years. His one handed TD grab last weekend was awesome. I agree with you that we have the personel to replace Welker easier than we do of getting a Colston, Jackson or Dwayne Bowe guy cheap or thru the draft... so we may have to sacrifice Wes to sign an 8-10 million a year WR. Hopefully the Edelman thing blows over so we can go cheap in the slot and short game. With him, Vereen, Woodhead, Broyles, Hernandez and Branch/Faulk factoring in, I'm sure Brady would rather have a star deep threat outside the line WR to replace Ocho with than Wes if he really told you the truth. Those are enough guys to play the short-pass no-huddle dink-and dunk 5-wide that is Brady's bread and butter.... if you have a great in his prime 6'4" all-pro lined up outside as well.
    Posted by rameakap


    "... if you have a great in his prime 6'4" all-pro lined up outside as well. "

    you gotta have this guy (as well as the breakaway back threat who is also a threat to catch a pass-find out if ridley is it by playing him rest of the year and price) or good defenses will shut down the te's and short guys
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from brdbreu. Show brdbreu's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]Finally, could this PLEASE be the draft where Bill sacrifices a future number one to get a current 2nd rd pick?

    re:"if someone like Jenkins or Crick fall and we can offer say our 2013 1st (likely 27-32 overall) and our 4th rd pick... for like pick 36-44 (or 44-56 w/o the 4th tossed in).... and nail an impact guy... shouldn't we do that?

    da, what we've lacked HAS been impact guys, so yes of course WE'RRE WITH YOU (and i said this last year leading up to the draft)

    I want to leave the draft with:

    - TWO elite pass rushers (doesn't matter LB/DT/DE)

    DOES MAtter imo - gotta have an above avg lb foremost,  pass rushing de., anohter dl

    - a cover/ballhawk DB (doesn't matter CB/FS)

    does matter. we need the fs.

    - One of the 4 best Centers

    not sure about that. we need a guy who can become above average vs not getting what we have higher needs for with the top 2 rounds or even 3 rounds of picks. i e i'd prefer a 3rd or 4th rounds center, unless we satisfy more of our top need through f.a. before the draft.

    - Ryan Broyles

    im not stuck on him. outside receiver more important. sure hed be great to have.


    That is FIVE pick in the 25-60 range, so IMO we need to move into that range somehow for 1 more pick.

    totally down with moving up (and sacrificing picks in future- bb never goes this way though).

    This team has depth, it needs TALENT.... add 2-4 REALLY good FA's and keep the guys we like and this team is stacked for the rest of Tom's career"

    yep, been saying that since i started looking at it last yr
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from brdbreu. Show brdbreu's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:

    Thanks.
    I think there are some quality FA's next year at positions of need. We need to open up the wallet a bit, but I would love to have a veteran corner opposite McCourty like Mathis from Jacksonville than drafting another young kid to play corner. If we do that, then I want to draft a FS. I like T.J. McDonald personally. He next to Chung, Mathis next to McCourty sounds about right. Add in Ras and Arrington, and that is a nice defensive backfield.


    yeah i suggested lester or mcd.


    I think what we do at WR is probably the most compelling story to follow here. So many want us to resign Welker, and I'm one of them. However, it depends on what he wants money wise. If he takes a team friendly contract, I am inclined to do it. If not, I let him walk.


    totally concur
    excellent outside wr much more important to this team.
    id like both but...


    I now he is Brady's binkie, but so what.
    I know I mentioned Colston in a previous post, and I like him. He is that big, strong WR that we might need on the outside. We have really nothing outside unless PRice shows up...jury out so far. Even still, he's not Colston just yet. So, it depends on what we want to do with that position.

    Half of me wants to make the full transition to 2 big TE's with Hern out there as well.

    hard to disagree.


     This is why I want Fleener. He is in the mold of Gronk. Imagine Gronk and Fleener on the line, Hern in the backfield lead blocking, with Vereen or Ridley running the ball. OR using the same personnel, split Gronk and Fleener out wide, Hern in the slot, Vereen in motion or in the other slot. 2 totally different formations using the exact same personnel. I want to see players we can use llike this. This to me (if O'Brien can unscrew his head), is exactly the type of unpredictability this offense is lacking.


    hello!! we're on the same page

    We could still go get Colston, and have somethign totally differnet with he and Price out there together. Options, options.

    at the same time, no imo. but gotta have 1 go-to outside very good receiver who can also get off the bump, has height, ball skills, speed and hands.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from brdbreu. Show brdbreu's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : I've never seen BB sacrifice a future 1st for a current 2nd. That would be totally out of character unless, unless, someone amazing slipped to the 2nd round and it was a no brainer. I don't see it happening. If anything, he does what he's been doing for the past 5+ years..trade out, trade back, pick up some for the future. I hate saying that, but history proves it.
    Posted by PatsLifer


    yeah. too our demise, his brain is hardwired one way.
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    brd, I hope BB doesnt trade a future 1st for a current 2nd.  The only exception would be a guy that just jumped out at us and was an inexplainable drop, kind of like Big Vince falling to us that year, but he would have needed to fall to rd 2. 

    On C's, get us one that can hold up against NTs.

    CB and/or FS I hope one in a FA pick up.  I like Ras I when he plays, but think he will be an off again on again guy due to injuries for us.

    WR, I would like a deep threat that if 6'5 ish, but those are not common

    DE/OLB, please get us some pass rush, anywhere and everywhere.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    Ok here's the list of FA's for next year

    http://www.fftoolbox.com/football/2011/contract_year_players.cfm

    Now how I see it the stable positions that don't need anything more then depth are:

    QB, OT, OG, P, K,

    ILB - If we go back to 34 then Spikes and Mayo are a good combo. If we stay more on the 43 side Spikes has played well and Fletcher/Tarp provides good depth

    The positions that can either need depth or could be slightly upgraded:

    TE - Really just need a 3rd TE and D Gronk has been pretty good as a blocking TE so far so that position might be filled

    RB - Ridley seems like the future with BJGE and Woodhead. The only question mark imo is Vereen. Well have to wait and see what he can do but having 4 young talented RB's might make this a filled position

    CB - McCourty is starting to rebound and could revert to last year with the right scheme. Ras looked good when he was on the field so there is hope he could become a #2 if he can stay on the field and Arrington is a good nickel/dime CB. It's hard to tell if they could use another starting CB but they need better depth then Molden or Adams

    The positions that need upgrades or starters:

    S - There is no one behind Chung and there is no FS to help over the top. This is forcing BB to play a very soft zone with CB's 5-10yrds off the line

    OLB/Rushing DE - Need I say more?

    DT/NT - Wilfork is fine and Love is a nice player but can't seem to get to the next level. Love would be best as a back up or a situational player but clearly can be upgraded

    WR - Branch is putting up good #2 numbers but disappears at times and Welker's contract is up. Ocho is useless and we still don't know what Price will become. WR is a issue


    So out of the Pats FA's I'd like to resign BJGE, Carter, Waters and Welker the rest can be dumped

    Out of the FA's I'll take:

    WR - Steve Johnson provided he's not asking for the moon
    FS - Tanard Jackson
    OLB - Stephen Tulloch or Matt Roth
    DE - Calais Campbell

    Right now I'm not seeing a ton of FA's that aren't going to cost an arm or a leg to get so the draft is where they might have to look
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    I just  don't see anyway Brewster is there till the 3rd or Jones till the 4th
    Posted by rameakap


    Reason I do think they might is all the d players who could make impacts, there are fast LBs and DEs that will be available and those guys are a premium and everyteam is looking for pass rush.  There are also aside from Luck and USC's QB can't remember his name another 3 QBs who could go late 1st/early 2nd.  So it's just equation of #s only so many picks in the 1st 2 rounds and I think with QBs, few WRs, possible 6 CBs and anywhere between 15 to 20 (DEs, DTs, LBs) add the OTs and there's a chance those OCs fall a bit.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    Ok here's the list of FA's for next year http://www.fftoolbox.com/football/2011/contract_year_players.cfm Now how I see it the stable positions that don't need anything more then depth are: QB, OT, OG, P, K, ILB - If we go back to 34 then Spikes and Mayo are a good combo. If we stay more on the 43 side Spikes has played well and Fletcher/Tarp provides good depth The positions that can either need depth or could be slightly upgraded: TE - Really just need a 3rd TE and D Gronk has been pretty good as a blocking TE so far so that position might be filled RB - Ridley seems like the future with BJGE and Woodhead. The only question mark imo is Vereen. Well have to wait and see what he can do but having 4 young talented RB's might make this a filled position CB - McCourty is starting to rebound and could revert to last year with the right scheme. Ras looked good when he was on the field so there is hope he could become a #2 if he can stay on the field and Arrington is a good nickel/dime CB. It's hard to tell if they could use another starting CB but they need better depth then Molden or Adams The positions that need upgrades or starters: S - There is no one behind Chung and there is no FS to help over the top. This is forcing BB to play a very soft zone with CB's 5-10yrds off the line OLB/Rushing DE - Need I say more? DT/NT - Wilfork is fine and Love is a nice player but can't seem to get to the next level. Love would be best as a back up or a situational player but clearly can be upgraded WR - Branch is putting up good #2 numbers but disappears at times and Welker's contract is up. Ocho is useless and we still don't know what Price will become. WR is a issue So out of the Pats FA's I'd like to resign BJGE, Carter, Waters and Welker the rest can be dumped Out of the FA's I'll take: WR - Steve Johnson provided he's not asking for the moon FS - Tanard Jackson OLB - Stephen Tulloch or Matt Roth DE - Calais Campbell Right now I'm not seeing a ton of FA's that aren't going to cost an arm or a leg to get so the draft is where they might have to look
    Posted by PatsEng


    That's pretty much the same way I feel. Although, I would like to see us upgrade at LB as well. I think we should play 4-3 more going forward. I like us in that alignment, and we really don't have superior personnel in certain positions to be a dominant 3-4 team.

    My ultimate line up on D would look like this.....

        Roth  Jerel Worthy  VW  Carter
            Manti Te'O   Spikes   Mayo
    RMathis                                  McCourty
             Lester/McDonald   Chung


    On the offensive side, as I said above, at teh WR position, it all comes down to where we want to spend the money..inside the numbers (slot WR in Welker) or go get an outside the numbers vet like Colston/Jackson/etc.

    If i had 1 dollar to spend based on who we currently have, I would put that dollar outside in Colston. I would then draft Broyles to play the slot, or use Hern/Edelmen/Vereen to do it. There is going to be a bit of a drop off initially, but a guy like Colston makes it up on the outside because he and PRice will create more for players playing underneath and the short part of the field.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from mbeaulieu07. Show mbeaulieu07's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    Happy Friday Boys (and Girls)!

    Wanted to touch on a couple of topics that have been discussed over the past couple days:

    1.  Wes Welker:  I don't see how you let this guy walk, he's a must keep, IMO.  They can't afford to let their best players walk, especially on the offensive side of the ball with the defense they have in place.

    2.  Potential FA's:  Wes Welker is the key free agent, (outside of their own) below is an early look at some others that I think may interest them.

    Defense:

    Jarrett Johnson 6-3 260 LB- Baltimore 
    Anthonly Spencer 6-3 260 LB- Dallas
    Jonathan Goff 6-2 242 LB- NYG
    Bryan Thomas 6-4 265 LB- NYJ
    Charles Godfrey 5-11 205 S- Carolina (former Iowa kid)
    Reggie Nelson 5-11 205 S- Cincy
    Tracy Porter- 5-11 196 CB- N.O.
    Aaron Ross- 6-0 190 CB- NYG
    Reggie Smith- 6-1 200 S- SF
    Jim Leonhard- 5-8 190 S- NYJ
    Michael Griffin- 6-0 205 S- Tenn
    Corltand Finnegan- 5-10 188 CB- Tenn (bring some attitude to this D)
    LaRon Landry- 6-0 220 S- Wash
    Thomas DeCoud- 6-2 195 S- Atlanta
    Robert Mathis - 6-2 245 DE/OLB- Indy (Would signal a shift to more 43)
    Kroy Biermann- 6-3 255 DE/OLB- Atlanta
    Adam Carriker- 6-6 315 DT- Wash
    Ahtyba Rubin- 6-2 330 DT- Cleveland
    Pat Sims- 6-2 330 DT- Cincy


    Offense:

    Mario Manningham- 6-0 185 WR- NYG
    Brandon Lloyd- 6-0 188 WR- StL
    Eddie Royal- 5-10 185 WR- Den
    Jacob Hester- 5-11 235 RB- SD


    3.  The Secondary:  The current group is just pathetic.  They don't cover well, don't tackle well and based on what we've heard, read and seen, they don't execute their assignments consistently.  The lack of a consistent pass rush doesn't help, but this group is bad nonetheless.  I think DMC will develop into a solid player, but the delta between how he played as a rookie and how he's playing this year (Isn't tackling well and looks lost in coverage) leaves a lot of cause for concern and while I love Chung, he struggles in coverage and should be more of a box safety.  As for their approach to identifying personnel, particularly in the draft, they REALLY need to scrap their current approach to evaluating these positions or at the very least re-evaluate their current philosophy for identifyinig and developing talent because something is broken, particularly with the CB position.  Since 2003 when they scored Asante Samuel in Rd 4, they've drafted 10 CB's (Christian Morton, Ellis Hobbs, Willie Andrews, Mike Richardson, Terrence Wheatley, Jonathan Wilhite, Darius Bulter, DMC, Ras-I Dowling, Malcolm Williams) with DMC (and maybe Hobbs) being the only player to excel, though I wouldn't say Hobbs excelled... I also think Ras-I is a talented kid that could easily become a solid player, but he was an injury risk in college and that hasn't changed at the pro level.  Their hit rate at S during that same span is a bit better (Gus Scott, Dexter Reid, James Sanders, Brandon Meriweather, Patrick Chung) with Sanders, Meriweather and Chung developing into starters, but none of which can be considered impact or big play type safeties that excel in coverage, which has been an issue.  I ALSO THINK AN UPGRADE IN DEFENSIVE COACHING TALENT IS NEEDED!!!

    4.  Drafting an OC:  I've been an advocate of this for the past couple years, namely one of the Pouncey brothers, but after seeing how Connolly has performed in a back up capacity, I think think they're fine with using him or potentially taking another late round kid (as they did with Koppen) to groom an eventual replacement.

    5.  What/Who I'd like to see them draft:  I'm spitting into the wind, but I want to see some impact talent on either side of the ball, preferably on the defensive side.  I don't see Justin Blackmon falling to NE, nor do I see them trading up for him (or anyone) in Rd 1, but Michael Floyd (assuming they are OK with his DUI's) is about a complete a receiver as you'll find, big play threat (good RAC ability), plays the game with passion, excellent blocker etc.  On the defensive side of the ball, in a dream scenario, Manti Te'o would land in Foxboro and give this team an instant jolt of toughness, attitude and explosive ability, the kid is a 3 down backer with All-Pro potential... he also will likely be off the board in the Top 10-15, so they'd again need to move up (as would Luke Kuechly he'd also need to add 5-10 pounds, but is as instinctive a player as I've seen).  I'm also onboard with Courtney Upshaw, who doesn't have the height that they prefer, but has size comparable to, gulp, AD, and has the 'Bama/SEC/Saban pedigree and can really get after it (makes a ton of plays: 26 TFL, 11 Sacks, 6 FF, 1 INT returned for a TD, 8 QB hurries over the past two seasons).  Then there's the seamingly perpetual need for CB help where a kid like Morris Claiborne (another Top 10 kid) will likely be appealing as will Chase Minnifield, Brandon Boykin, Dre Kirkpatrick, Janoris Jenkins, Alfonzo Dennard and Stephon Gilmore who may all be available outside the top 15.  I don't see any real impact S's at this point, but there could be some day 2 value with Mark Barron, Ray Ray Armstrong, TJ McDonald, Robert Lester and Harrison Smith.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from shenanigan. Show shenanigan's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    Finally, could this PLEASE be the draft where Bill sacrifices a future number one to get a current 2nd rd pick? If someone like Jenkins or Crick fall and we can offer say our 2013 1st (likely 27-32 overall) and our 4th rd pick... for like pick 36-44 (or 44-56 w/o the 4th tossed in).... and nail an impact guy... shouldn't we do that? I want to leave the draft with: - TWO elite pass rushers (doesn't matter LB/DT/DE) - a cover/ballhawk DB (doesn't matter CB/FS) - One of the 4 best Centers - Ryan Broyles That is FIVE pick in the 25-60 range, so IMO we need to move into that range somehow for 1 more pick. This team has depth, it needs TALENT.... add 2-4 REALLY good FA's and keep the guys we like and this team is stacked for the rest of Tom's career
    Posted by rameakap


    That's a pretty tall order, how many elite pass rushers do you see in the NFL and you want 2 in one draft plus the other guys.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    Happy Friday Boys (and Girls)! Wanted to touch on a couple of topics that have been discussed over the past couple days: 1.  Wes Welker:  I don't see how you let this guy walk, he's a must keep, IMO.  They can't afford to let their best players walk, especially on the offensive side of the ball with the defense they have in place. 2.  Potential FA's:  Wes Welker is the key free agent, (outside of their own) below is an early look at some others that I think may interest them. Defense: Jarrett Johnson 6-3 260 LB- Baltimore  Anthonly Spencer 6-3 260 LB- Dallas Jonathan Goff 6-2 242 LB- NYG Bryan Thomas 6-4 265 LB- NYJ Charles Godfrey 5-11 205 S- Carolina (former Iowa kid) Reggie Nelson 5-11 205 S- Cincy Tracy Porter- 5-11 196 CB- N.O. Aaron Ross- 6-0 190 CB- NYG Reggie Smith- 6-1 200 S- SF Jim Leonhard- 5-8 190 S- NYJ Michael Griffin- 6-0 205 S- Tenn Corltand Finnegan- 5-10 188 CB- Tenn (bring some attitude to this D) LaRon Landry- 6-0 220 S- Wash Thomas DeCoud- 6-2 195 S- Atlanta Robert Mathis - 6-2 245 DE/OLB- Indy (Would signal a shift to more 43) Kroy Biermann- 6-3 255 DE/OLB- Atlanta Adam Carriker- 6-6 315 DT- Wash Ahtyba Rubin- 6-2 330 DT- Cleveland Pat Sims- 6-2 330 DT- Cincy Offense: Mario Manningham- 6-0 185 WR- NYG Brandon Lloyd- 6-0 188 WR- StL Eddie Royal- 5-10 185 WR- Den Jacob Hester- 5-11 235 RB- SD 3.  The Secondary:  The current group is just pathetic.  They don't cover well, don't tackle well and based on what we've heard, read and seen, they don't execute their assignments consistently.  The lack of a consistent pass rush doesn't help, but this group is bad nonetheless.  I think DMC will develop into a solid player, but the delta between how he played as a rookie and how he's playing this year (Isn't tackling well and looks lost in coverage) leaves a lot of cause for concern and while I love Chung, he struggles in coverage and should be more of a box safety.  As for the their approach to identifying personnel, particularly in the draft, they  REALLY need to scrap their current approach to evaluating these positions or at the very least re-evaluate their current process for identifyinig and developing talentbecause something is broken, particularly with CB.  Since 2003 when they scored Asante Samuel in Rd 4, they've drafted  10 CB's (Christian Morton, Ellis Hobbs, Willie Andrews, Mike Richardson, Terrence Wheatley, Jonathan Wilhite, Darius Bulter, DMC, Ras-I Dowling, Malcolm Williams) with DMC (and maybe Hobbs) being the only player to excel, though I wouldn't say Hobbs excelled... I also think Ras-I is a talented kid that could easily become a solid player, but he was an injury risk in college and that hasn't changed at the pro level.  Their hit rate at S during that same span is a bit better, but (Gus Scott, Dexter Reid, James Sanders, Brandon Meriweather, Patrick Chung) with Sanders, Meriweather and Chung developing into starters, but none of which can be considered impact or big play type safeties that excel in coverage, which has been an issue.  I ALSO THINK AN UPGRADE IN DEFENSIVE COACHING TALENT IS NEEDED!!! 4.  Drafting an OC:  I've been an advocate of this for the past couple years, namely one of the Pouncey brothers, but after seeing how Connolly has performed in a back up capacity, I think think they're fine with using him or potentially taking another late round kid (as they did with Koppen) to groom an eventual replacement. 5.  What/Who I'd like to see them draft:  I'm spitting into the wind, but I want to see some impact talent on either side of the ball, preferably on the defensive side.  I don't see Justin Blackmon falling to NE, nor do I see them trading up for him (or anyone) in Rd 1, but Michael Floyd (assuming they are OK with his DUI's) is about a complete a receiver as you'll find, big play threat (good RAC ability), plays the game with passion, excellent blocker etc.  On the defensive side of the ball, in a dream scenario, Manti Te'o would land in Foxboro and give this team an instant jolt of toughness, attitude and explosive ability, the kid is a 3 down backer with All-Pro potential... he also will likely be off the board in the Top 10-15, so they'd again need to move up (as would Luke Kuechly he'd also need to add 5-10 pounds, but is as instinctive a player as I've seen).  I'm also onboard with Courtney Upshaw, who doesn't have the height that they prefer, but has size comparable to, gulp, AD, but has the 'Bama/SEC/Saban pedigree and can really get after it (makes a ton of plays: 26 TFL, 11 Sacks, 6 FF the past, 1 INT returned for a TD, 8 QB hurries over the past two seasons).  Then there's the seamingly perpetual need for CB help where a kid like Morris Claiborne (another Top 10 kid) will likely be appealing as will Chase Minnifield, Brandon Boykin, Dre Kirkpatrick, Janoris Jenkins, Alfonzo Dennard and Stephon Gilmore who may all be available outside the top 15.  I don't see any real impact S's at this point, but there could be some day 2 value with Mark Barron, Ray Ray Armstrong, TJ McDonald, Robert Lester and Harrison Smith .
    Posted by mbeaulieu07


    MB,
    Always, always respect your opinion and agree with you on everything in this post, less to a degree, the part on Welker. He is a critical piece to the offense TODAY, but...if we had more threats at WR like Michael Floyd or Blackmon or lets say 2 top tier WRs outside of Welker, is he as important?
    What is the drop off from Welker to others that could play the slot?...Hernandez, Broyles, Edelman, Vereen?
    Would the roster look stronger say with Colston/Floyd/Blackmon on the outside, Broyles/Hernandez/Edelman in the slot, another big TE like Gronk (Fleener), and Price with another year under his belt.

    I guess my point is if you have to invest in the WR position, where do you stick your money? On the outside or inside? That is what it might come down to. Now, I guess we could go get a kid like Floyd and also resign Welker. Floyd/Price on teh outside, Welker in the slot sounds good as well. It depends on any number of things, and getting the most bang for the buck.

    I'm with you on upgrading the LB corps. I would love to see Manti or Kuelhy here.
    What are your thoughts on Zach Brown out of UNC? If we are running more 4 man lines, Brown is a fantastic 4-3 WOLB. Likely can be had later in round 1 where we pick.
    Any thoughts on Jerel Worthy?

    Personally, I want to see some more speed and playmakers added to the D. I don't think you can go wrong with Manti, Kuehly or Brown at LB.

    I am not for drafting another CB. We need a veteran presence there to compliment McCourty. Without a stellar D coordinator, too much at risk trying to coach young kids up to perform. I'd rather bring in a proven vet on a 2-3 year contract and go from there.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***


    On another note...

    I understand why we would want to play 3-4, 4-3, and shift within a game. Does that limit the players we need to consider as they need to be more scheme diverse?..meaning, play 4-3 DE + 3-4 OLB?...or 3-4 DE and 4-3 DT?...

    Personally, I would rather us pick 1 primary scheme and draft talent based on that. It would seem easier than trying to find palyers that will fit both equally well.

    The reason I bring this up is because we passed on a LOT of defensive end and tackle talent last draft when supposdely it was very target rich. Probably the richest in recent memory. If BB knew he wanted to play more 4-3, then why not draft a DE or DT rather then ponying up $4.5M for Ellis, signing Haynesworth, etc. We could have easily grabbed a stud DE/DT, resigned Warren for veteran presnece and maybe 1 of the 2 of Ellis/Haynesworth. I don't get it honeslty.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    where the heck is z on the day before the most important day of the year in college football this year. nowhere to be seen. the winner tomorrow (bama/lsu) likely plays for the championship.

    thanks for the posts today guys. will get back and read when i have some time.
     
  24. This post has been removed.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from mbeaulieu07. Show mbeaulieu07's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : MB, Always, always respect your opinion and agree with you on everything in this post, less to a degree, the part on Welker. He is a critical piece to the offense TODAY, but...if we had more threats at WR like Michael Floyd or Blackmon or lets say 2 top tier WRs outside of Welker, is he as important? What is the drop off from Welker to others that could play the slot?...Hernandez, Broyles, Edelman, Vereen? Would the roster look stronger say with Colston/Floyd/Blackmon on the outside, Broyles/Hernandez/Edelman in the slot, another big TE like Gronk (Fleener), and Price with another year under his belt. I guess my point is if you have to invest in the WR position, where do you stick your money? On the outside or inside? That is what it might come down to. Now, I guess we could go get a kid like Floyd and also resign Welker. Floyd/Price on teh outside, Welker in the slot sounds good as well. It depends on any number of things, and getting the most bang for the buck. I'm with you on upgrading the LB corps. I would love to see Manti or Kuelhy here. What are your thoughts on Zach Brown out of UNC? If we are running more 4 man lines, Brown is a fantastic 4-3 WOLB. Likely can be had later in round 1 where we pick. Any thoughts on Jerel Worthy? Personally, I want to see some more speed and playmakers added to the D. I don't think you can go wrong with Manti, Kuehly or Brown at LB. I am not for drafting another CB. We need a veteran presence there to compliment McCourty. Without a stellar D coordinator, too much at risk trying to coach young kids up to perform. I'd rather bring in a proven vet on a 2-3 year contract and go from there.
    Posted by PatsLifer


    PL,
    I prefer to see them keep Welker, then try to fill out the receiving corp via the draft (Floyd, Broyles etc.) or via FA with one of the second or third type WR's available, i.e. Manningham, Royal, Lloyd etc... I just don't see them spending big $ on of the premier "outside" receivers on the market.

    I'm also interested to see what kinda burn Price has moving forward (based on O'b's comments this week) and what kind of impact he has on the field... if he plays well, it may negate the need all together.

    I'll have to research Brown more and hopfully get a look at him... from what I've read, he's more of an athlete at this point.  He has great speed and can make plays sideline to sideline, but is lacking in the instinct/awareness department.

    A FA CB would make sense and call me crazy, but I'd love to see Cortland Finnegan in Foxboro... I think this defense could use some edge/swagger and toughness.
     
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