***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! THANKS TO ALL WHO PARTICIPATED!

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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    Last year many were disappointed that no pass rush upgarde came with all those early draft picks. While that is a glaring problem now (no surprise) and shows up as part of the poor pass D last years draft did bring some very important - CRITICAL - talent:
    (1) There was a critically dangerous situation on the O line. Mankins was not signed and it looked like he might go. Light's contact was also coming due. Starting RG Neil was retiring. Light and center Koppen were getting old. You cant run or pass with a bad O line. So something had to be done. BB used his first pick to get perhaps the best pass blocking OT this team has seen. OK - too early to say THAT but he is obviously a very good player and at one of the most critical positions. THey also used a later round pick on Cannon.
    (2) They did trade down giving NO a chance to take Ingram and giving up a chance to take someone who could deliver a pass rush. On the surface this seems a bad choice. But they got a 2nd and a first next year. THere really are FEW players that are worth as much as 2 good players. Espcially in the current league with all the injuries you see. DEPTH of the roster is CRITICAL. It is hard to argue with that move.
    (3) THey got a CB (now on IR) who looks like he has a shot at being good. No question CB remains a critical need. Especially when teams regularly put 3 (or even 4) on the field at the same time. It was a reasonable pick for a real need.
    (4) There was no true feature RB. BJGE is a very good dependable player but he does not make the D honor the run to the extent that it helps open up some of the passing zones. THis because he just does not have a second let alone a third gear. He is not able to break big plays. After BJGE Woodhead was the only RB without gray hair. And Faulk was coming off a serious injury. SO RB was a real, critical need. They got Vereen ( who I think could turn out to be something big) and Ridley (who looks very good when he is on the field). It covered the critical need that could have left the team in a very dangerous situation.
    (5) They took Mallet in round 3. Too good a QB to let slide. To much value. Perhaps as a future trade for more value. Perhaps as an eventual heir to TB. Hard to be too critical of that pick.

    SO last years draft did a lot. THis next draft will hopefully do thae same for other areas. Hopefully first and foremost in the front seven of the D. THey need 2 DEs. THey need 1-2 outside LBs. Depending on Pryor and Haynesworth (I have a wait and see on Brace and not yet too thrille with Love) they might not need a DT.

    If the 2012 draft (and free agency) can rebuild the (rest) of the front seven the D will quickly be a strength. They also need one or more safeties and still could use a good cover corner (and hope the draft and FA help there) but if you rebuild the front seven it will make a huge difference in both run and pass D and allow the O to be smart and efficient and allow TB not to feel like he has to do more than he can. I think he (TB) is playing poorly (for TB) because he believes he needs to do more.

    So - 2012 should be first and foremost about the front 7 with emphasis on DEs and outside LBs (whether 3-4 or 4-3, I do not care).
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]Last year many were disappointed that no pass rush upgarde came with all those early draft picks. While that is a glaring problem now (no surprise) and shows up as part of the poor pass D last years draft did bring some very important - CRITICAL - talent: (1) There was a critically dangerous situation on the O line. Mankins was not signed and it looked like he might go. Light's contact was also coming due. Starting RG Neil was retiring. Light and center Koppen were getting old. You cant run or pass with a bad O line. So something had to be done. BB used his first pick to get perhaps the best pass blocking OT this team has seen. OK - too early to say THAT but he is obviously a very good player and at one of the most critical positions. THey also used a later round pick on Cannon. (2) They did trade down giving NO a chance to take Ingram and giving up a chance to take someone who could deliver a pass rush. On the surface this seems a bad choice. But they got a 2nd and a first next year. THere really are FEW players that are worth as much as 2 good players. Espcially in the current league with all the injuries you see. DEPTH of the roster is CRITICAL. It is hard to argue with that move. (3) THey got a CB (now on IR) who looks like he has a shot at being good. No question CB remains a critical need. Especially when teams regularly put 3 (or even 4) on the field at the same time. It was a reasonable pick for a real need. (4) There was no true feature RB. BJGE is a very good dependable player but he does not make the D honor the run to the extent that it helps open up some of the passing zones. THis because he just does not have a second let alone a third gear. He is not able to break big plays. After BJGE Woodhead was the only RB without gray hair. And Faulk was coming off a serious injury. SO RB was a real, critical need. They got Vereen ( who I think could turn out to be something big) and Ridley (who looks very good when he is on the field). It covered the critical need that could have left the team in a very dangerous situation. (5) They took Mallet in round 3. Too good a QB to let slide. To much value. Perhaps as a future trade for more value. Perhaps as an eventual heir to TB. Hard to be too critical of that pick. SO last years draft did a lot. THis next draft will hopefully do thae same for other areas. Hopefully first and foremost in the front seven of the D. THey need 2 DEs. THey need 1-2 outside LBs. Depending on Pryor and Haynesworth (I have a wait and see on Brace and not yet too thrille with Love) they might not need a DT. If the 2012 draft (and free agency) can rebuild the (rest) of the front seven the D will quickly be a strength. They also need one or more safeties and still could use a good cover corner (and hope the draft and FA help there) but if you rebuild the front seven it will make a huge difference in both run and pass D and allow the O to be smart and efficient and allow TB not to feel like he has to do more than he can. I think he (TB) is playing poorly (for TB) because he believes he needs to do more. So - 2012 should be first and foremost about the front 7 with emphasis on DEs and outside LBs (whether 3-4 or 4-3, I do not care).
    Posted by portfolio1[/QUOTE]

    Hey port,

    good to see you back on the draft thread. I just have some commentary on those points:

    1) Agree. OL was a place of weakness and so was pass rush. i think we all expected them to grab an OL and a pass rush with 2 of those top 33 picks. OL was the choice and it looked like a good choice with Solder

    2) We traded back a #1 to get Vereen, NO's #1 next year and gave us room to trade back our pick to Hou for Ridley and Cannon. Now They might have traded their pick back anyways so, that second part might be moot. Lets look at only the trade for a second. So far no one knows what Vereen is but since he's been an active no show for a number of games that's very concerning. As of right now it looks like we trade our #1 in 11' for a #1 in 12' in about the same position. Until Vereen can actually get on the field let alone be productive I don't count him as depth at all. As of right now that was a terrible trade but it's all dependent on Vereen

    3) Ras is on IR and this was the knock on him coming out of college was that he was injury prone. A number of posters including myself pointed out time and time again that he was injury prone and it would be a gamble to take him early. If this was a late 2nd or early 3rd pick then you can say you took a chance on a 1st round talent guy with some injury issues but with the 33rd pick? It's basically a 1st round right there. If Ras can't stay healthy I don't see him long for the NFL and would yet again be another wasted high round pick.

    4) I agree but Vereen being healthy inactive and cannot seem to get on the field really at all is very concerning. I don't know what to make of it. Ridley started out with a bang but has since sputtered to a halt. It might be due to lack of touches or lack of confidence but as of right now both RB selections aren't looking great. The one thing about RB selections is normally they can start week 1 as a rook and be productive. It's unusual they take a long time to adapt to a system so with Ridley and Vereen not getting a lot of touches it's disconcerting to say the least

    5) Mallett was a gamble and still is. Can he keep his head straight and be happy on the bench until Brady retires? If so he can be a bigger steal then Rodgers if not then he's another O'Connell. There's a reason he went from a top 15 talent to the 3rd round. We'll have to wait and see

    I use to think that the 09', 10', 11' drafts were amazing given the shear amount of high round picks but when you break it down it paints a scary picture on how many picks were thrown away. I don't just mean in terms of players no longer on the team but also players who were expected to be average starters at worst and ended up being rotational backups. It seems that trading back and acquiring a ton of picks will get you decent depth and at least 1 solid starter every year but you don't get the impact players. I've seen that it's almost impossible to find an impact player in the 2nd and 3rd round yet the closer you are to #1 the more likely you have to find one. I know this doesn't come as much of a shock but when you realize that the depth and getting a ton of picks haven't worked at all for this team over the last 3 years and what's missing, on D at least, is a player who other teams need to account for then it's maddening not to move up and take a chance on getting an impact player. (BTW look at the depth on D right now. Brown, Barrett, Adams, Molden, White I mean really, that's the best depth they could get in an area of weakness to begin with?)

    The way I look at it is that the Pats in the first 3 rounds get a solid starter with 25% of their picks or at least a backup role player on 40% of those picks. So, what are the odds that if you moved up to a top 20 pick that you'd find at minimum a solid starter or better? I'd put it closer to 50%. So, you slightly decrease the odds of getting a solid player every year but, you are drastically increasing your odds of getting an impact player if every so often you move up to get one. I don't mean take the Jets approach but when you have the extra ammo and have a critical need that requires an impact player spend a couple of chips to go after the jackpot. As a wise man once said, "you can't win if you never play" and another said "if you go for broke and lose then what do you have to show but that you are a fool" but there has to be a happy median. I have to believe when an area of need has a lot of depth in the draft that you move chips to take a risk on show of that talent and when the draft is weak or your needs are minimized is when you hold back for more. It seems the philosophy regardless of strength of certain positions or need on the team is to trade back and get value instead of move forward for talent. It's just like gameday. If you only run 1 game plan constantly you will lose, you need to adjust and plan around your weaknesses and the strengths of what's in front of you.
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : I agree. They don't need to be Ramses Barden like at 6'6", but they do need to be athletic. The guys you mention MB are athletic. We really don't have much of that on the team period. At teh WR spot, Branch and Ocho were once guys like the above, but their time has just about come and gone. That leaves Wes. Not a ton of speed, but quick..perfect slot receiver. Just give me a fast twitch WR like the above mentioned. In fact give me 2. If you look at GB, they are loaded at WR. Guys of varying sizes, but all athletes. Same with Pitt. Shoulda coulda, but we coulda had Sanders or Wallace. We all talked about them both a while back.  If we get 2 speedy, athletic WRs oppostie Welker, I like this offense a bit more, in terms of opening things up for Gronk and Hern as well. It will be much more dynamic and we would have weapons to play long or short ball depending upon opponent. 
    Posted by PatsLifer[/QUOTE]

    Yes, what the WR corp is lacking most of all is outside WR's that can consistently beat press man, gain seperation in coverage.  With Price's inability to get on the field (injury/not ready etc.) and the decline and/or inability to grasp the offense for others (Branch/Johnson), there is a need there, both short and long term.  Again, the situation is fixable, IMO (likely not this year), but they really need to hit on somebody in either FA or the draft (or if Price finally steps up)... keeping Welker is also key, IMO to maintaining some form of continuity.
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : Yes, what the WR corp is lacking most of all is outside WR's that can consistently beat press man, gain seperation in coverage.  With Price's inability to get on the field (injury/not ready etc.) and the decline and/or inability to grasp the offense for others (Branch/Johnson), there is a need there, both short and long term.  Again, the situation is fixable, IMO (likely not this year), but they really need to hit on somebody in either FA or the draft (or if Price finally steps up)... keeping Welker is also key, IMO to maintaining some form of continuity.
    Posted by mbeaulieu07[/QUOTE]

    Well do you need a downfield threat or a larger physical WR when up against press coverage?

    The issue with Welker and Branch is if they get bumped and man handled on the line they can't get off it because of their size. This was true of Moss too (not because of size), and of most outside threats. Outside threats work best when they are typically cleanly released from the line.

    IMO the best way to beat physical press man is to get a larger, stronger possession WR at the line. One that will push a CB backwards if they try to bump then off the line. If you think about it all the WR needs to do is knock the CB backwards and suddenly the field is wide open for them. This is something you typically see from a Floyd, Jackson, Marshall, Burress, Fitz, Johnson, and a TO in his prime. These are bigger physical WR's you can't play press on because they will throw the CB's to the side and get the ball with a wide open field in front of them.

    Though I'd like a speedy outside threat to open the underneath route they won't be able to get clean releases if you don't have that physical WR to prevent the press or a strong run game that others teams need to be concerned about.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from mbeaulieu07. Show mbeaulieu07's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : Well do you need a downfield threat or a larger physical WR when up against press coverage? The issue with Welker and Branch is if they get bumped and man handled on the line they can't get off it because of their size. This was true of Moss too (not because of size), and of most outside threats. Outside threats work best when they are typically cleanly released from the line. IMO the best way to beat physical press man is to get a larger, stronger possession WR at the line. One that will push a CB backwards if they try to bump then off the line. If you think about it all the WR needs to do is knock the CB backwards and suddenly the field is wide open for them. This is something you typically see from a Floyd, Jackson, Marshall, Burress, Fitz, Johnson, and a TO in his prime. These are bigger physical WR's you can't play press on because they will throw the CB's to the side and get the ball with a wide open field in front of them. Though I'd like a speedy outside threat to open the underneath route they won't be able to get clean releases if you don't have that physical WR to prevent the press or a strong run game that others teams need to be concerned about.
    Posted by PatsEng[/QUOTE]

    I just don't think being big and physical are the only ways to be beat press.  You can also beat press with good speed/quicks and technique (i.e the players I mentioned previously). 

    Again, I'm not saying that big WR's don't have their value and I'm not saying that they won't go after one... what I'm saying is size isn't a necessity as some make it out to be.
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : I just don't think being big and physical are the only ways to be beat press.  You can also beat press with good speed/quicks and technique (i.e the players I mentioned previously).  Again, I'm not saying that big WR's don't have their value and I'm not saying that they won't go after one... what I'm saying is size isn't a necessity as some make it out to be.
    Posted by mbeaulieu07[/QUOTE]

    Oh I agree MB there are mutliple ways to beat press. I'm just bias towards the larger WR's. I'm also looking at the draft and our current draft positions. I want to go heavy D with the early picks so I'm looking at a WR in the late 2nd - late 3rd range.

    For the speed WR's I'm truthfully not seeing much in this draft. Hilton, Brolyes, and Wright seem like the ones that jump out at me. With Brolyes injury he could be a great option for later in the draft. But, I wouldn't take him higher then the 4th simply because speedster WR's with knee injures are a risk to begin with (ie Tate), but in the 4th and later you aren't risking much to take a chance.

    Past those 3 though I don't see much in terms of speed guys (I'm not a fan of Maze). However, There is a plethora of larger WR's in the 2nd-4th round range and even some past that. This is a large WR draft for one odd reason or another and I still have faith that Price can turn into that burner. But for the larger WR's you have Jones, McNutt, Streeter, Randle, Toon.

    Of course if you went the FA route you have some really good outside the number WR this year: Lloyd, Wallace, Colston, Royal, Bowe, S Johnson, D Jackson, Ted Ginn. This is the year to grab a burner in FA if you want one or to grab a big WR in the draft if you want one. Personally I want a big guy to replace Ocho (since that's what he was suppose to be), and a burner to replace Branch (though Price might be that guy if he can get on the field)  
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : Oh I agree MB there are mutliple ways to beat press. I'm just bias towards the larger WR's. I'm also looking at the draft and our current draft positions. I want to go heavy D with the early picks so I'm looking at a WR in the late 2nd - late 3rd range. For the speed WR's I'm truthfully not seeing much in this draft. Hilton, Brolyes, and Wright seem like the ones that jump out at me. With Brolyes injury he could be a great option for later in the draft. But, I wouldn't take him higher then the 4th simply because speedster WR's with knee injures are a risk to begin with (ie Tate), but in the 4th and later you aren't risking much to take a chance. Past those 3 though I don't see much in terms of speed guys (I'm not a fan of Maze). However, There is a plethora of larger WR's in the 2nd-4th round range and even some past that. This is a large WR draft for one odd reason or another and I still have faith that Price can turn into that burner. But for the larger WR's you have Jones, McNutt, Streeter, Randle, Toon. Of course if you went the FA route you have some really good outside the number WR this year: Lloyd, Wallace, Colston, Royal, Bowe, S Johnson, D Jackson, Ted Ginn. This is the year to grab a burner in FA if you want one or to grab a big WR in the draft if you want one. Personally I want a big guy to replace Ocho (since that's what he was suppose to be), and a burner to replace Branch (though Price might be that guy if he can get on the field)  
    Posted by PatsEng[/QUOTE]

    I def think FA will be key this offseason as there's a chance to land some solid and/or impact talent on both sides of the ball, particularly at DB (LaRon Landry, Charles Godfrey, Cortland Finnegan, Aaron Ross, Michael Griffin, Jim Leonhard etc.) and WR (A good year for both unrestricted and restricted -Wallace- talent) both area's of need, especially if they let Welker walk, which I don't think will happen.  So at the end of the day, they should be able to turn things around pretty quickly; increasing their veteran presence while also targeting impact talent higher in the draft, moving up if they have to... though I'm not optimistic on the last part.
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    This post is going to be out of control by the time the Draft is actually here... Hope you'll start a new one on April 1, MB.
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]This post is going to be out of control by the time the Draft is actually here... Hope you'll start a new one on April 1, MB.
    Posted by oh-my-beard[/QUOTE]

    Ha, I generally like to keep a single thread, see if we can beat the previous years thread post total, think we were over 7500 last year.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***


    Don't worry MB, we'll beat it easily.

    Whatever the physical makeup of the outside WR, as long as they can beat the CB off the line, I'll all for it. Desean Jackson and Jackson are about as far apart as any 2 WRs in this league...size wize. Yet, both are great outside threats. One is big and physical, and one is quick and speedy. I'll take 2 of those please..one to replace Ocho, and the other Branch. Price for whatever he is worth stays my #4, and I don't rely on him until he proves he can do something.
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** 

     use to think that the 09', 10', 11' drafts were amazing given the shear amount of high round picks but when you break it down it paints a scary picture on how many picks were thrown away. 

    this is the most disturbing part. we could be a championship team.



    I don't just mean in terms of players no longer on the team but also players who were expected to be average starters at worst and ended up being rotational backups. It seems that trading back and acquiring a ton of picks will get you decent depth and at least 1 solid starter every year but you don't get the impact players. I've seen that it's almost impossible to find an impact player in the 2nd and 3rd round yet the closer you are to #1 the more likely you have to find one. I know this doesn't come as much of a shock but when you realize that the depth and getting a ton of picks haven't worked at all for this team over the last 3 years and what's missing, on D at least, is a player who other teams need to account for then it's maddening not to move up and take a chance on getting an impact player.

    this was my analysis at teh end of the season lat year and going into the draft.
    from my experience set i also specualted as to why bb behaves this way, outside of improper judgement


     (BTW look at the depth on D right now. Brown, Barrett, Adams, Molden, White I mean really, that's the best depth they could get in an area of weakness to begin with?)

    The way I look at it is that the Pats in the first 3 rounds get a solid starter with 25% of their picks or at least a backup role player on 40% of those picks. So, what are the odds that if you moved up to a top 20 pick that you'd find at minimum a solid starter or better? I'd put it closer to 50%. So, you slightly decrease the odds of getting a solid player every year but, you are drastically increasing your odds of getting an impact player if every so often you move up to get one.

    regarldless of the % the point is made.
    however chances of a stud playmaker are considerably higher.



     I don't mean take the Jets approach but when you have the extra ammo and have a critical need that requires an impact player spend a couple of chips to go after the jackpot. As a wise man once said, "you can't win if you never play" and another said "if you go for broke and lose then what do you have to show but that you are a fool" but there has to be a happy median. I have to believe when an area of need has a lot of depth in the draft that you move chips to take a risk on show of that talent and when the draft is weak or your needs are minimized is when you hold back for more. It seems the philosophy regardless of strength of certain positions or need on the team is to trade back and get value instead of move forward for talent. It's just like gameday. If you only run 1 game plan constantly you will lose, you need to adjust and plan around your weaknesses and the strengths of what's in front of you.


    i made this point going into the draft last year.
    saying another way, if you use one strategy skillfully ie accumulating draft picks, but you cannot take advantage of that strategy, in bb's case, due to his addiction to it as an ends rather than as a means to an end (being creating a championship team), the  whole benefit of using the accumulation strategy goes to waste. (analogy, you are in vegas and you amass chips amazingly, but due to your delusion or addiction, you never trade any chips in for cash).


    i dont read thisin you post, regardless of strategies, the draft team and evaluators are striking out far more often than the best drafting teams in the league.  to be one of the better teams and organizations in the league (and if you are a fan at any rate), you want the best people in place from the scouts to the top. imo we dont have that and it needs to be rectified.


    thanks for the post.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    It seems like every year we talk about players we would move up to get. Last year it was Quinn, Miller and others, this year, who knows.

    The fact is we will have 2 decent 1st round picks. They way things are playing out now, they could be anywhere from 18-31. Tons of talent in that range again this year.

    Looking back on last years draft, it was chock full of DT/DE talent. Kids of every size and scheme, yet we didn't draft 1. Amazing.

    Looking forward again to the 2012 draft, what position(s) are target rich? the way I see it now, it looks fairly even between offensive and defensive talent, and pretty much all positions on both sides of the ball.
    Anyone have a feel on this upcoming draft in terms of what position(s) are rich and deep in talent?
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    Last year I think it was Watt and Kerrigan

    Anyhow, JUST USE THE PICKS!

    and of course use them on players we NEED

    Bill CANNOT trade away any of his 1sts/2nd this year for future picks... and if Bill takes a offensive lineman, even a Center, with a 1st rd pick, or does not address the pass-rush and secondary through top 50 FA's or top 60 draft picks it will a travesty beyond explanation.
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]Last year I think it was Watt and Kerrigan Anyhow, JUST USE THE PICKS! and of course use them on players we NEED Bill CANNOT trade away any of his 1sts/2nd this year for future picks... and if Bill takes a offensive lineman, even a Center, with a 1st rd pick, or does not address the pass-rush and secondary through top 50 FA's or top 60 draft picks it will a travesty beyond explanation.
    Posted by rameakap[/QUOTE]

    re:" or does not address the pass-rush and secondary through top 50 FA's or top 60 draft picks it will a travesty beyond explanation."

    why would he change. it's what he does.
    and its been a travesty. just no one in the press would say anything he had all the great cred built up. well after years of poor moves, those in the biz are feeling freer to talk, including ex players. and they know what the f they are talking about.

    just like the rest of us with eyes.

    only, that just a few of us were willing to say what they see before this year.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]It seems like every year we talk about players we would move up to get. Last year it was Quinn, Miller and others, this year, who knows. The fact is we will have 2 decent 1st round picks. They way things are playing out now, they could be anywhere from 18-31. Tons of talent in that range again this year. Looking back on last years draft, it was chock full of DT/DE talent. Kids of every size and scheme, yet we didn't draft 1. Amazing. Looking forward again to the 2012 draft, what position(s) are target rich? the way I see it now, it looks fairly even between offensive and defensive talent, and pretty much all positions on both sides of the ball. Anyone have a feel on this upcoming draft in terms of what position(s) are rich and deep in talent?
    Posted by PatsLifer[/QUOTE]

    Well this year is a slightly weaker draft then last yera in terms of depth of talent but there are a couple of areas that seem to have depth imo.

    Depth areas:

    WR - Atleast 2 top 10 picks 2 more in the 1st and at least 5 more players that can go in the 2nd to really early 3rd. 9 players who can go in the first 2 rounds and all of whom can be #1 or #2 starters. Very good depth in here

    CB - Maybe 4-5 CB's in the top 25 and another 9 who could go before the end of the 2nd. It could be one of the richest CB drafts in the last 5 years. This will be the year BB doesn't take a CB because of how deep it is.

    ILB - Though there are maybe 5-6 players who might go in the first 2 rounds that's a lot considering the position. You typically don't see that many go in the first 2 rounds and maybe even 4 in the 1st. Good year to get some talent in ILB

    The pool is shallow:

    RB - I've never seen a group of RB's that screams no 1st round pick. Last year was close but Murray and Ingram looked like 1st rounds this year I'm not high on anyone

    TE - Any team that needs a TE better grab Allen early because that's about it

    S - You have McDonald and Lester, other then that there are a couple of Sanders type of players but no one I would say has a higher ceiling then a solid starter

    NT - If you are a 34 team in need of a NT well maybe next year. Ta'amu is the best of the bunch then the talent falls off drastically

    DE - You have a couple of good talents up top then a sprinkling of talent in the 2nd and 3rd but for the most part you are looking at a bunch of high talent players who are inconsistent, not playing up to ability, or have issues

    DT - More talent then the NT's or DE's but no clear cut top 15 talent in the bunch. There's some talent in the late 1st early 2nd but compared to last year this is the shallow end of the talent pool


    IMO the area's we need the most help are: C, WR, CB, S, DE, DT, OLB. Of those positions DE, DT, WR, OLB, C seemed pretty deep last year and we didn't really take anyone. I'm guessing BB will skip out on WR and CB this year based on the results of his previous draft attempts and the amount of depth in those positions. BB seems to like to be smarter then all the other coaches taking guys with high talent who were injured or ones he thinks he can coach up based on the coaches the picks used to play for. So, again this year I expect for BB to take 1-2 players who fell do to injury or minor off field issues (Jenkins and Broyles if he does go the CB and WR route imo) and I aspect to see him move down and end up with another 1st and 2nd next year. A 1st this year, 3 3rds (even though his 3rd rounds picks have stunk recently) and get a couple extra late round picks.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from mcboyd22. Show mcboyd22's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    Yes...use the damn picks. It's almost looking like BB knows he hasn't been successful drafting players, so the more picks he has, the better chance he has to get a good player.

    Let me first say, I don't wish we had another coach, however, that doesn't mean he is perfect and we as fans can't criticize....just like politics.

    I've read a few posts on this thread about how some of the people on here have had better luck picking future stars than BB, which while comical, is true in some instances. Don't you think sometimes he "overthinks" it. People call him a genius, so he begins to think it...I'm smarter than everyone else....I'll select Jermaine Cunningham when all of the analysts are saying Carlos Dunlap is the d-line player I want, but I'm smarter, so I'm going Cunningham. WRONG!

    Clay Mathews...just a workout warrior...he will never fit into "our scheme". Granted, Bill didn't say this, all of the analysts say it while trying to determine why NE selected Cunningham. If he wanted Cunningham so bad, wait a couple rounds...I don't think he was going anywhere. 

    I liked the selection of Solder and Ridley/Vereen, but Dowling?He drafts too much hoping for "value"....Brandon Tate off of an injury...Dowling injury prone. Especially for CB's...he tends to go against the norm and it has killed him. Who are the top db's to be drafted in the last few years?

    These are the major Round 1 DB's drafted:

    2008 Leodis Mcelvin,Domonique Rodgers Cromartie, Aquib Talib, Mike Jenkins, Antoine Cason
    2009 Malcolm Jenkins, Vontae Davis
    2010 Eric Berry, Joe Haden, Earl Thomas

    I don't think 4th round CB's (Asante) that turn into starters are that prevalent.

    Sorry for the diatribe, but as a die hard fan which most of you on here are...wouldn't you like some conventional wisdom from Bill regarding the draft.

    WR- take Blackmon, Floyd, known commodities that have proven it...don't gamble on some guy from Ohio University because he is big and fast...so what!

    DE/LB - take Clay Mathews/JJ Watt - go up a few spots and take them

    Bottom line is I think we would be better off being a bit more traditional when drafting. It's the difference in the Pats and the Packers right now.


     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from natesubs. Show natesubs's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    all the people calling for BB's head need to think about one thing, who has had better drafts in their entire career as a head coach than BB?
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]all the people calling for BB's head need to think about one thing, who has had better drafts in their entire career as a head coach than BB?
    Posted by natesubs[/QUOTE]

    The problem being most HC's aren't also the GM's. You have to separate them Nate. I doubt anyone would want any other coach then BB but, as GM he is average at best. Yes he is a draft trading guru but what has all that trading lead to? I'll give him credit for trading for Welker but for what he had to trade to get Moss, well that's a no brainer. What trades have BB made that have worked out to the point that we could't have traded up or stayed where they were to get players?

    The way you have to look at it is if BB wasn't the GM but the same moves and players where made would BB ask for them to be fired for ruining a once great D, wasting draft pick after draft pick, and targeting to many reclamation projects and other teams JAGs? I think BB would have them fired if those were the groceries someone else bought for him, which should say a lot
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from seattlepat70. Show seattlepat70's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]Yes...Don't you think sometimes he "overthinks" it. People call him a genius, so he begins to think it...I'm smarter than everyone else....I'll select Jermaine Cunningham when all of the analysts are saying Carlos Dunlap is the d-line player I want, but I'm smarter, so I'm going Cunningham. ...
    Posted by mcboyd22[/QUOTE]

    Yes...and sometimes it works. he's been pretty successful with the big body positions - OL and DL.

    He really struggles with the speed positions - WR, CB, RB and even S. For some reason, he picks WRs who are speedy but can't catch or can't run the right route. CBs who turn out to be too short, too slow or too injury-prone. He'd probably have a better WR and secondary corps right now if he just followed conventional thinking.

    instead of targeting players, he should just pick the best talent available. 

    imho, if he wants to gamble some of his picks, he should use one or two of his very late picks on outliers (the fastest WR, the biggest DL, the tallest WR, the quickest LB, etc.).
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : The problem being most HC's aren't also the GM's. You have to separate them Nate. I doubt anyone would want any other coach then BB but, as GM he is average at best. Yes he is a draft trading guru but what has all that trading lead to? I'll give him credit for trading for Welker but for what he had to trade to get Moss, well that's a no brainer. What trades have BB made that have worked out to the point that we could't have traded up or stayed where they were to get players? The way you have to look at it is if BB wasn't the GM but the same moves and players where made would BB ask for them to be fired for ruining a once great D, wasting draft pick after draft pick, and targeting to many reclamation projects and other teams JAGs? I think BB would have them fired if those were the groceries someone else bought for him, which should say a lot
    Posted by PatsEng[/QUOTE]

    you are right on eng.
    thanks fo rclearign nate up about our feeling.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from mbeaulieu07. Show mbeaulieu07's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : The problem being most HC's aren't also the GM's. You have to separate them Nate. I doubt anyone would want any other coach then BB but, as GM he is average at best. Yes he is a draft trading guru but what has all that trading lead to? I'll give him credit for trading for Welker but for what he had to trade to get Moss, well that's a no brainer. What trades have BB made that have worked out to the point that we could't have traded up or stayed where they were to get players? The way you have to look at it is if BB wasn't the GM but the same moves and players where made would BB ask for them to be fired for ruining a once great D, wasting draft pick after draft pick, and targeting to many reclamation projects and other teams JAGs? I think BB would have them fired if those were the groceries someone else bought for him, which should say a lot
    Posted by PatsEng[/QUOTE]

    Good points, PE.

    Additionally, I'd much prefer to have a Thomas Dimitroff or a Kevin Colbert or a Jerry Reese or a Ted Thompson or an Ozzie Newsome or a Micky Loomis etc., running the draft room with input from BB as to what type of player he wants... thus allowing BB to focus more time towards the coaching aspects of the game.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : Good points, PE. Additionally, I'd much prefer to have a Thomas Dimitroff or a Kevin Colbert or a Jerry Reese or a Ted Thompson or an Ozzie Newsome or a Micky Loomis etc., running the draft room with input from BB as to what type of player he wants... thus allowing BB to focus more time towards the coaching aspects of the game.
    Posted by mbeaulieu07[/QUOTE]

    I agree MB.

    BB is spread to thin. If you look at the staff as a whole other then Peppers and Scar which coaches had any experience coaching in the NFL for another team. For a vast majority the Pats are the only team they know. BB spends a lot of time coaching the coaches and not the players. He expects that what he teaches them will tickle down to the players but unfortunately it isn't happening and the development of these players have been severely hampered.

    Then on the player acquisition staff BB is so concerned about players he deems he can coach up (which his undercoaches don't have the ability to do) and players he likes it's almost as if he has blinders on. It's been said that it's always better to have a fresh set of eyes look at a decision before it's made and I don't think anyone does but BB. Caserio is clearly over his head and doesn't want to speak up to BB over any player decisions. Why would he? BB got him his job and the Pats are the only system he knows.

    The issue I have is the majority of the people under BB only know BB's way of doing things. They can't step back and take a second look at things because they can't see past the blinders BB unintentional put on them. We need some outside eyes on the team and in the FO that won't owe their job to BB and have experience so they can bring in a different perspective. It's critical for a teams success long term
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from mbeaulieu07. Show mbeaulieu07's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : I agree MB. BB is spread to thin. If you look at the staff as a whole other then Peppers and Scar which coaches had any experience coaching in the NFL for another team. For a vast majority the Pats are the only team they know. BB spends a lot of time coaching the coaches and not the players. He expects that what he teaches them will tickle down to the players but unfortunately it isn't happening and the development of these players have been severely hampered. Then on the player acquisition staff BB is so concerned about players he deems he can coach up (which his undercoaches don't have the ability to do) and players he likes it's almost as if he has blinders on. It's been said that it's always better to have a fresh set of eyes look at a decision before it's made and I don't think anyone does but BB. Caserio is clearly over his head and doesn't want to speak up to BB over any player decisions. Why would he? BB got him his job and the Pats are the only system he knows. The issue I have is the majority of the people under BB only know BB's way of doing things. They can't step back and take a second look at things because they can't see past the blinders BB unintentional put on them. We need some outside eyes on the team and in the FO that won't owe their job to BB and have experience so they can bring in a different perspective. It's critical for a teams success long term
    Posted by PatsEng[/QUOTE]

    Good stuff again, I've highlighted a few of what I feel are the key points.

    Do you think the lack (for the most part) of coaches with NFL experience within other organizations has more to do with BB wanting to control what is coached/taught or do you feel that veteran/experienced coaches are either intimitaded by or don't want to work for someone who's perceived as all encompassing within an organization?
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : Good stuff again, I've highlighted a few of what I feel are the key points. Do you think the lack (for the most part) of coaches with NFL experience within other organizations has more to do with BB wanting to control what is coached/taught or do you feel that veteran/experienced coaches are either intimitaded by or don't want to work for someone who's perceived as all encompassing within an organization?
    Posted by mbeaulieu07[/QUOTE]

    I think it's a little of both.

    BB has an ego and wants things done his way. IMO he feels the best way to make sure they are done his way are to promote from within with coaches who only know his way. And, if all things were equal then promoting from within is the best approach but these kids have no other experience but what he tells them.

    That's why Crennel and Weis were so important to his success. Because they had experience in other systems other then BB's. They could give him an outsiders perspective and he didn't need to teach them everything so he could concentrate on areas of weakness.

    No coach with experience who has dreams of being a HC will want to work under BB. It's simply because BB isn't leaving anytime soon so it blocks an avenue for them to advance. Then add on top of it, if they have experience they don't want to be told how to run systems as if they never have ran them before. That's one reason I think Capers high tailed it out of NE.

    It's like his player decisions. We see him pick up players and draft players with similar qualities of those great players he use to have. The problem is that they might have similar qualities but they aren't the same players. He fixates on certain characteristics and has fully admitted it hasn't always been to his advantage (see his remarks on Matthews). He does the same things with his coaches. He wants certain qualities and completely discounts the other aspects thinking that he can train them to make up for it. It doesn't always work that way though and sometimes you have to explore outside the box to find a solution. I've seen it many times within my profession which a person becomes so successful they actually forget what got them there in the first place and put blinders on thinking they can do it again with re-evaluating the situation.

    It's like they came up against a wall with no entrance and burst through it but on the other side it was another wall they couldn't burst through this time. Unfortunately, there is a door 2' to the right but they are so fixated on bursting through that wall they don't even notice and keep running at the same spot on the wall time and time again.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : Good points, PE. Additionally, I'd much prefer to have a Thomas Dimitroff or a Kevin Colbert or a Jerry Reese or a Ted Thompson or an Ozzie Newsome or a Micky Loomis etc., running the draft room with input from BB as to what type of player he wants... thus allowing BB to focus more time towards the coaching aspects of the game.
    Posted by mbeaulieu07[/QUOTE]

    jesus mb.
    is this really you saying this?
    welcome on board.

     

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