***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! THANKS TO ALL WHO PARTICIPATED!

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : I agree MB. BB is spread to thin. If you look at the staff as a whole other then Peppers and Scar which coaches had any experience coaching in the NFL for another team. For a vast majority the Pats are the only team they know. BB spends a lot of time coaching the coaches and not the players. He expects that what he teaches them will tickle down to the players but unfortunately it isn't happening and the development of these players have been severely hampered. Then on the player acquisition staff BB is so concerned about players he deems he can coach up (which his undercoaches don't have the ability to do) and players he likes it's almost as if he has blinders on. It's been said that it's always better to have a fresh set of eyes look at a decision before it's made and I don't think anyone does but BB. Caserio is clearly over his head and doesn't want to speak up to BB over any player decisions. Why would he? BB got him his job and the Pats are the only system he knows. The issue I have is the majority of the people under BB only know BB's way of doing things. They can't step back and take a second look at things because they can't see past the blinders BB unintentional put on them. We need some outside eyes on the team and in the FO that won't owe their job to BB and have experience so they can bring in a different perspective. It's critical for a teams success long term
    Posted by PatsEng[/QUOTE]

    eng you have seen my posts on this since i joined the board last year?
    only back then no one else was gonna speak publicly about it (that i saw anyway. well aside from babe, who spoke from a bb hatred).

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : Good stuff again, I've highlighted a few of what I feel are the key points. Do you think the lack (for the most part) of coaches with NFL experience within other organizations has more to do with BB wanting to control what is coached/taught or do you feel that veteran/experienced coaches are either intimitaded by or don't want to work for someone who's perceived as all encompassing within an organization?
    Posted by mbeaulieu07[/QUOTE]

    i think bb doesn't want someone who as smart, may challenge him, as competent.  ive said many times, bb's weakness is an emotional weakness (and insecurity) that gets in the way. he is not the type who enjoys a whole team of coaches (and draft decisionmakers) bringing their ideas together to make a better product (ie soup or superbowl). 

     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : jesus mb. is this really you saying this? welcome on board.
    Posted by bredbru[/QUOTE]

    Yes, it's me.

    I've never actually come out in support of or against BB as a GM... I'm generally just trying to predict who he'll take based on his draft history and assumed preferences.

    I just think bringing on a talented, fulltime GM that has some say in personnel  (and maybe a track record for identifying and developing perimeter/skill players etc.) would be a positive for this organization.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : Yes, it's me. I've never actually come out in support of or against BB as a GM... I'm generally just trying to predict who he'll take based on his draft history and assumed preferences. I just think bringing on a talented, fulltime GM that has some say in personnel  (and maybe a track record for identifying and developing perimeter/skill players etc.) would be a positive for this organization.
    Posted by mbeaulieu07[/QUOTE]

    BINGO!
    That is precisely what is needed. But, sadly it won't happen anytime soon.

    So, I guess that takes us back to the draft and prospective players.

    Any thoughts anyone on the right mix by position of need for FA's and Draftees?

    Meaning, at which positions do we draft and at which do we secure an FA?

    My personal opinion is that we compliment positions of need with drafted players. I also don't want to reinvest in the CB position. I want to bring in an FA to compliment McCourty, and see how Ras pans out and if Arrington/Molden, etc. can step their games up.

    Conversely on the Safety front, i want to draft a player to compliment Chung, and want to take this position high (round 2). Again, complimentary to Chung's skill set, more of a rangy, coverage safety, OR I'll take a big CB that can be converted.

    Thoughts?
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from mcboyd22. Show mcboyd22's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    Good comments, guys. I do think having his staff pilfered puts the organization back and if the bench strength isn't there, Bill will do it himself and overextend.

    This is a draft thread so I'll get back to it. Mark Barron would look great in a Pat's uniform and fill a big need. He seems to do a better job in coverage than Chung and would be a great compliment.

    Would love to see a utilization of picks to get Justin Blackmon...the guy is Dez Bryant with a work ethic.

    I think we need some LB's drafted as well as in F/A.

    Does anyone think we would be better off simply going 4-3...go get Robert Mathis and draft someone.

    Need a pass rushing DL (for the last 4 years), need LB, safety, and WR.





    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : BINGO! That is precisely what is needed. But, sadly it won't happen anytime soon. So, I guess that takes us back to the draft and prospective players. Any thoughts anyone on the right mix by position of need for FA's and Draftees? Meaning, at which positions do we draft and at which do we secure an FA? My personal opinion is that we compliment positions of need with drafted players. I also don't want to reinvest in the CB position. I want to bring in an FA to compliment McCourty, and see how Ras pans out and if Arrington/Molden, etc. can step their games up. Conversely on the Safety front, i want to draft a player to compliment Chung, and want to take this position high (round 2). Again, complimentary to Chung's skill set, more of a rangy, coverage safety, OR I'll take a big CB that can be converted. Thoughts?
    Posted by PatsLifer[/QUOTE]
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from mbeaulieu07. Show mbeaulieu07's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : BINGO! That is precisely what is needed. But, sadly it won't happen anytime soon. So, I guess that takes us back to the draft and prospective players. Any thoughts anyone on the right mix by position of need for FA's and Draftees? Meaning, at which positions do we draft and at which do we secure an FA? My personal opinion is that we compliment positions of need with drafted players. I also don't want to reinvest in the CB position. I want to bring in an FA to compliment McCourty, and see how Ras pans out and if Arrington/Molden, etc. can step their games up. Conversely on the Safety front, i want to draft a player to compliment Chung, and want to take this position high (round 2). Again, complimentary to Chung's skill set, more of a rangy, coverage safety, OR I'll take a big CB that can be converted. Thoughts?
    Posted by PatsLifer[/QUOTE]

    PL,

    It's a tough question as they can likely pull starters at positions of potential need (CB/WR/S/C/LB) from both resources.

    There are also a lot of variables at play and it's still very early in the season/draft evaluation process and we don't yet know the available talent pool in free agency, but I want them to take BPA, regardless of postition in Rd 1 (well, outside of QB of course).  I also want them to either make both picks or move up for an impact player (on either side of the ball)... prob wishful thinking on both.

    *Additionally, I think they could use a veteran presence in the secondary, so I'd like to see them address that area via free agency.  At the end of the day, I still see them drafting atleast one DB within the first 3 rounds, but there's no question that this is a huge area of need moving forward. 

    *As for WR, their track record for drafting and developing the position under BB has been poor.  They started out excellent, but haven't hit on anyone since drafting both Deion and Givens in the 2002 class, having taken Bethel Johnson, PK Sam, Chad Jackson, Brandon Tate, (Matt Slater wasn't really a WR) Julian Edelman (he's done little to nothing at the NFL level to be labeled a hit) and to date, Taylor Price (he has a chance to develop) since. Their FA/Trade history is a bit of a mixed bag, though I'd say that they've been far more successful through this route:

    Hits / Productive pick ups:
    Wes Welker- TRADE
    Randy Moss- TRADE
    Deion Branch- TRADE
    David Patten
    Reche Caldwell
    Jabar Gaffney
    Donte Stallworth

    Misses: A lot of rookie free agents/scrubs (prob missing a few too) which is likely common with a lot of teams, but also some legit misses. Also had a few special teams studs (Sam Aiken, Kelley Washington etc.)

    Aaron Bailey
    Tony Gaiter
    Chris Calloway
    Bert Emanuel
    Charles Johnson
    Sean Morey
    Torrance Small
    Donald Hayes
    Dedric Ward
    Michael Jennings
    Eugene Baker
    Rich Musinski
    Jake Schifino
    David Terrell
    Tim Dwight
    Andra Davis
    Keron Henry
    Zuriel Smith
    John Stone
    Doug Gabriel- TRADE'
    Kelvin Kight
    CJ Jones
    Kelley Washington
    Sam Aiken
    Robert Ortiz
    Joey Galloway
    Greg Lewis
    Torry Holt
    Isaiah Stanback
    Tyree Barnes
    Shunn White
    Nick Moore
    Chad Johnson- TRADE


    *I'm not really worried about the C position, but if the right guy is there high in the draft, they could definitely snag him, though history states otherwise.  I think they're more likely to grab a kid in the middle to late rounds and develop him as they did Koppen.

    *ILB however is a definite position of concern for me as arguably their two best inside 'backers (Mayo & Spikes) have both had durability issues as has potential up and comer Dane Fletcher.  This is where I'd like to see them bring in some young talent (Te'o, Kuechly, Burfict, Hightower) and maybe an additional veteran to provide both depth and to help tutor the youngin'. 

    *OLB/43 DE is another perpetual need for this team, but they just don't seem willing to extend a high draft pick on a conversion guy, it'll be interesting to see how this plays out if they decide to stick to more 43.  As for 34 OLB, Courtney Upshaw is and will likely continue to be the hot name as I believe he's already a 34 OLB under Saban.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Low-FB-IQ. Show Low-FB-IQ's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    I haven't been around much this year yet but the few times i have checked in i see people talking about WR and defensive backs.

    Personally I would be scared to death of NE taking a WR high. ...and NOT because i don't trust the scouting department to identify one but because I don't trust Brady to actually like the guy they pick.

    I also don't think the defensive backs are as bad as our linebackers. That's not to say the DB's are that great but the linebackers have no chance to cover anyone. ...and that's not that surprising since we only drafted 2 of them and they were both drafted to play 34. Then you compound that with both of the 2 decent ones having knee injuries.

    When did we start doing this MB? When was the 1st thread? 2009 or 2010 draft? We should put together a list of the players we've collectively all thought positively about each year and list what round they were drafted and by whom and then check back on them after 3 years and see how well we collectively have done. Still in the league? Starter? Backup? etc. Of course that is no indication of how a player may have done in NE but might still be entertaining.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from mbeaulieu07. Show mbeaulieu07's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]I haven't been around much this year yet but the few times i have checked in i see people talking about WR and defensive backs. Personally I would be scared to death of NE taking a WR high. ...and NOT because i don't trust the scouting department to identify one but because I don't trust Brady to actually like the guy they pick. I also don't think the defensive backs are as bad as our linebackers. That's not to say the DB's are that great but the linebackers have no chance to cover anyone. ...and that's not that surprising since we only drafted 2 of them and they were both drafted to play 34. Then you compound that with both of the 2 decent ones having knee injuries. When did we start doing this MB? When was the 1st thread? 2009 or 2010 draft? We should but together a list of the players we've collectively all thought positively about each year and list what round they were drafted and by whom and then check back on them after 3 years and see how well we collectively have done. Still in the league? Starter? Backup? etc. Of course that is no indication of how a player may have done in NE but might still be entertaining.
    Posted by Low-FB-IQ[/QUOTE]

    Low,
    Welcome back.

    The DB's are definitely a problem too, they seem to be lacking severly with awareness, ball skills and tackling.

    I agree with the ILB's as well.

    I too have often thought about what our collective hit rate (as well as my personal hit rate) is vs. the success rate of the actual draft class.  My first draft thread was 2009, but overall, I think it's a good idea, though I don't feel like scouring through 12,000+ posts to come up with the names, ha.  With so many names being discussed during the life of a thread, it could be difficult to nail down the few names that come up most often.

    I did look into my documents and just pulled up my final project which I completed on draft day, 2011.  Here it is for sh*tz-n-giggles, ha.



    MY FINAL 2011 DRAFT PROJECTION 

    I’d love to see BB make a move up the draft board to land Prince Amukamara, assuming he doesn’t, below is my final mock.  For pick one, I think it’s down to a three headed monster of Kerrigan, Castonzo and Jordan.  I’ll stay with my post one choice of Ryan Kerrigan.  Similar to last year, I’ll also provide my top 20 alternatives. 

    The Mock: 
    17- Ryan Kerrigan- OLB/DE- Purdue- The pass rusher of the future.
    28- Muhammad Wilkerson- DT/DE- Temple- The next in a successful line of 1st Rd DE’s.
    33- Randall Cobb- WR/AP- Kentucky-  Dynamic offensive player that could be the future at slot.
    60- James Carpenter-OT/OG- Alabama- Proven SEC tackle, Nick Saban Pedigree.
    74- Shane Vereen-RB- Cal- Versatile back that would fit in well with Benny  & Woody.
    92- Stefen Wisniewski-OG/C- Penn State- Versatile, smart, tough, could play OG or C, solid player.
    4th- Buster Skrine- CB- UT Chattanooga- Has the speed, agility and COD ability that BB covets in his CB’s.
    5th- Mark Herzlich- OLB/ILB- BC- Tough, instinctive, smart, high character, great motor, versatile.
    6th- Tim Barnes C/OG- Missouri- Good size, speed, quicks and smarts to fit their zone scheme. 

    Top 20 Alternatives: 

    Anthony Castonzo- OT- BC
    Cameron Jordan- DT/DE- Cal
    Mike Pouncey- OG/C- Florida
    Danny Watkins- OG/OT- Baylor
    Mark Ingram- RB- Alabama
    Kyle Rudoph- TE- ND
    Jabaal Sheard- OLB/DE- Pitt
    Brooks Reed- OLB/DE- Arizona
    Andy Dalton- QB- TCU
    Aaron Williams- CB/S- Texas
    Rock Carmicheal- CB- VT
    Ricky Elmore- OLB-DE- Arizona
    Greg Romeus- OLB/DE- Pitt
    Mason Foster- ILB- Washington
    Owen Marecic- FB/LB- Stanford
    Ricky Stanzi- QB- Iowa
    Greg McElroy- QB- Alabama
    Jeremy Beal- OLB/ILB- Oklahoma
    Jarvis Jenkins- DT/DE- Clemson
    Tyler Sash- S- Iowa 

    7th – URFA: 

    Mike Person- OT/OG- Montana State
    Darren Evans- RB- VT
    Julian Vandervelde- OG- Iowa
    Jeff Tarpinian- LB- Iowa
    Alex Wujciak- LB- Maryland
    Jeff Maehl- WR- Oregon
    Kealoha Pilares- WR- Hawaii
    Mana Silva- S- Hawaii
    Ricky Lumpkin- DT/DE- Kentucky
    Noel Devine- RB- WVU
    Shane Bannon- FB- Yale
    Justin Trattou- DE/OLB- Florida
    Darrin Walls- CB- ND
    Preston Dial- FB/TE/HB- Alabama 

    Lastly, to comment on one of the most hotly debated topics overall, do the Pat’s take a undersize edge player, (i.e. Dontay Moch or Chris Carter etc.)?  I didn’t list either player in the top 20 because they’ve shown no willingness to take pure pass rush specialists, but personally, I’d love to see what they could do with one of these kids.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : BINGO! That is precisely what is needed. But, sadly it won't happen anytime soon. So, I guess that takes us back to the draft and prospective players. Any thoughts anyone on the right mix by position of need for FA's and Draftees? Meaning, at which positions do we draft and at which do we secure an FA? My personal opinion is that we compliment positions of need with drafted players. I also don't want to reinvest in the CB position. I want to bring in an FA to compliment McCourty, and see how Ras pans out and if Arrington/Molden, etc. can step their games up. Conversely on the Safety front, i want to draft a player to compliment Chung, and want to take this position high (round 2). Again, complimentary to Chung's skill set, more of a rangy, coverage safety, OR I'll take a big CB that can be converted. Thoughts?
    Posted by PatsLifer[/QUOTE]

    Hey Lifer, I always go by one philosophy. You should always have one solid vet at every position. This player doesn't need to be a starter but someone who can guide, mentor, and when needed be a starter. That's one reason I really liked Sanders. He was a leader in the S core and played his role well. When they needed him to start he would slide right in without them missing a beat. Same reason I like Connolly.

    The secondary is missing that type of player in both the S and CB position. I thought Bodden and Sanders were those guys but I guess I was wrong? Ideally I think CB needs a starter that Ras, McCourty, and Arrington can lean on. If they get a solid guy like a Finnegan then I don't think they need to draft a CB high unless a top end CB falls to a point where they are by far and away the best player on the board (Jenkins could be a guy like that). For S though, Ihendigbo is a good STer but Barrett and Brown should be cut at the end of the year. They need some youth and some leadership. I want a vet next to Chung and a young talented FS to learn from the vet.

    On the DL we have plenty of vet leadership what we need is athletic youth that can get after a QB. In the LB it's a bit different. Again, we could use either a vet who can cover and won't be fooled by play action or a younger athletic LB that can just be let loss.

    Just on D if I was going into the off-season my targets would be a solid vet for the OLB, FS, and CB position and look towards the draft for a FS, DL, and OLB.

    On O I really on see 2 positions we need to really worry about, C and WR. With C imo it's always better to get someone young that you can mold around your QB's habits. On WR this year the draft and FA separated out the choices for us (how nice of them). It seems that there are an abundant of quicker outside the number receivers who will be FA's and in the draft there are a number of larger between the number possession WR's. So the question really becomes would you rather have a burner outside the numbers to bump the S's back or a larger possession WR to fight of press at the line and and push the S's inward towards them. Personally given Brady is getting older and his deep pass accuracy has been down lately I want a larger possession WR that will fight for balls and punch D's in the face at the line. So I would head draft
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    Here was my draft from 11'

    #17 - Cameron Jordan DE/Elephant 
    #28 - Brooks Reed OLB
    #33 - Mark Ingram RB
    #60 - Will Rackley OT/G
    #74 - Curtis Brown CB
    #92 - Virgil Green TE
    #125 - Marcus Cannon G
    #159 - Ugo Chinasa DE/OLB
    #193 - Zane Taylor C

    Solder was the better choice over Jordan no question about it. But, I think I would take Reed and Ingram over Vereen, Ras, and NO's #1 next year. I nailed the Cannon pick though. Brown's not having a bad year on Pit. The rest are JAGs just like the rest of our guys.

    Not sure which draft I'd rather have mine or the one the Pats took. Solder is going to be a great T. Ras and Ridley have shown talent. Mallett could be another Rodgers in the waiting. Tough call considering Reed is now starting to produce and Ingram has been more productive for NO then Ridley for us.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from arodrambone. Show arodrambone's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    akeem ayers would have been big for us. i want a guy like that in the late first/early second, even though i would have drafted bowers over ayers last year at 33. how is bruce carter doing, and martez Wilson?
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from mbeaulieu07. Show mbeaulieu07's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]akeem ayers would have been big for us. i want a guy like that in the late first/early second, even though i would have drafted bowers over ayers last year at 33. how is bruce carter doing, and martez Wilson?
    Posted by arodrambone[/QUOTE]

    bone,

    I wasn't an Ayers guy... Reed or Kerrigan are the kids I wanted if they went after an edge rusher in the top 64 

    Here is how those five stand to date:

    Kerrigan: 35 tackes, 3 sacks, 2 FF, 3 PD, 1 INT (returned for a TD)
    Ayers: 31 tackles, 1 sack
    Reed:  25 tackles, 4 sacks, 1 PD
    Carter:  1 tackles, 1 PD
    Wilson:  3 tackles
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : bone, I wasn't an Ayers guy... Reed or Kerrigan are the kids I wanted if they went after an edge rusher in the top 64  Here is how those five stand to date: Kerrigan: 35 tackes, 3 sacks, 2 FF, 3 PD, 1 INT (returned for a TD) Ayers: 31 tackles, 1 sack Reed:  25 tackles, 4 sacks, 1 PD Carter:  1 tackles, 1 PD Wilson:  3 tackles
    Posted by mbeaulieu07[/QUOTE]

    MB,
     You sure nailed that kerrigan pick early.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : The problem being most HC's aren't also the GM's. You have to separate them Nate. I doubt anyone would want any other coach then BB but, as GM he is average at best. Yes he is a draft trading guru but what has all that trading lead to? I'll give him credit for trading for Welker but for what he had to trade to get Moss, well that's a no brainer. What trades have BB made that have worked out to the point that we could't have traded up or stayed where they were to get players? The way you have to look at it is if BB wasn't the GM but the same moves and players where made would BB ask for them to be fired for ruining a once great D, wasting draft pick after draft pick, and targeting to many reclamation projects and other teams JAGs? I think BB would have them fired if those were the groceries someone else bought for him, which should say a lot
    Posted by PatsEng[/QUOTE]

    re: "The way you have to look at it is if BB wasn't the GM but the same moves and players where made would BB ask for them to be fired for ruining a once great D, wasting draft pick after draft pick, and targeting to many reclamation projects and other teams JAGs? I think BB would have them fired if those were the groceries someone else bought for him, which should say a lot"


    eng, that is a brilliant way to put it (to illustrate the point). if you take that it was done by bb out of the equation, folks here and analysts would be free to say what they think. and i think a smart bb would trade this person in for an upgrade.

    i read a good article about jim harbaugh recently and thought of posting the link. i thought better of it, that people would just complain instead of seeing the point trying to be made. there was on paragraph that discussed that jim is not afraid to surround him,self with the smartest most capable people. therein lies one of the biggest obstacles to bb and the patriots being successful

     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : Good points, PE. Additionally, I'd much prefer to have a Thomas Dimitroff or a Kevin Colbert or a Jerry Reese or a Ted Thompson or an Ozzie Newsome or a Micky Loomis etc., running the draft room with input from BB as to what type of player he wants... thus allowing BB to focus more time towards the coaching aspects of the game.
    Posted by mbeaulieu07[/QUOTE]



    re:  I'd much prefer to have a Thomas Dimitroff or a Kevin Colbert or a Jerry Reese or a Ted Thompson or an Ozzie Newsome or a Micky Loomis etc., running the draft room with input from BB as to what type of player he wants... thus allowing BB to focus more time towards the coaching aspects of the game. 

    g-d, really talking my language here mb.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]I haven't been around much this year yet but the few times i have checked in i see people talking about WR and defensive backs. Personally I would be scared to death of NE taking a WR high. ...and NOT because i don't trust the scouting department to identify one but because I don't trust Brady to actually like the guy they pick. I also don't think the defensive backs are as bad as our linebackers. That's not to say the DB's are that great but the linebackers have no chance to cover anyone. ...and that's not that surprising since we only drafted 2 of them and they were both drafted to play 34. Then you compound that with both of the 2 decent ones having knee injuries. When did we start doing this MB? When was the 1st thread? 2009 or 2010 draft? We should put together a list of the players we've collectively all thought positively about each year and list what round they were drafted and by whom and then check back on them after 3 years and see how well we collectively have done. Still in the league? Starter? Backup? etc. Of course that is no indication of how a player may have done in NE but might still be entertaining.
    Posted by Low-FB-IQ[/QUOTE]


    i agree that our linebacking crew is week and not up to par, and none of them can cover. i watch teams with giant linebackers doing great coverage and then think of ours and wonder why we cant stick with a man, or cover him when he releases- all day! literally.

    still we need a free safety. fa may be best. but bb had the chance this year and didnt pull the trigger. maybe he will see the error and change that.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:

    t's a tough question as they can likely pull starters at positions of potential need (CB/WR/S/C/LB) from both resources.

    There are also a lot of variables at play and it's still very early in the season/draft evaluation process and we don't yet know the available talent pool in free agency, but I want them to take BPA, regardless of postition in Rd 1 (well, outside of QB of course).  I also want them to either make both picks or move up for an impact player (on either side of the ball)... prob wishful thinking on both.


    re:"I also want them to either make both picks or move up for an impact player"
      
    this was my prescription for last year (few wwere havin it)


    *Additionally, I think they could use a veteran presence in the secondary, so I'd like to see them address that area via free agency.  At the end of the day, I still see them drafting atleast one DB within the first 3 rounds, but there's no question that this is a huge area of need moving forward. 

    with you on the vet fs

    *As for WR, their track record for drafting and developing the position under BB has been poor.  They started out excellent, but haven't hit on anyone since drafting both Deion and Givens in the 2002 class, having taken Bethel Johnson, PK Sam, Chad Jackson, Brandon Tate, (Matt Slater wasn't really a WR) Julian Edelman (he's done little to nothing at the NFL level to be labeled a hit) and to date, Taylor Price (he has a chance to develop) since. Their FA/Trade history is a bit of a mixed bag, though I'd say that they've been far more successful through this route:

    Hits / Productive pick ups:
    Wes Welker- TRADE
    Randy Moss- TRADE
    Deion Branch- TRADE
    David Patten
    Reche Caldwell
    Jabar Gaffney
    Donte Stallworth

    Misses: A lot of rookie free agents/scrubs (prob missing a few too) which is likely common with a lot of teams, but also some legit misses. Also had a few special teams studs (Sam Aiken, Kelley Washington etc.)

    Aaron Bailey
    Tony Gaiter
    Chris Calloway
    Bert Emanuel
    Charles Johnson
    Sean Morey
    Torrance Small
    Donald Hayes
    Dedric Ward
    Michael Jennings
    Eugene Baker
    Rich Musinski
    Jake Schifino
    David Terrell
    Tim Dwight
    Andra Davis
    Keron Henry
    Zuriel Smith
    John Stone
    Doug Gabriel- TRADE'
    Kelvin Kight
    CJ Jones
    Kelley Washington
    Sam Aiken
    Robert Ortiz
    Joey Galloway
    Greg Lewis
    Torry Holt
    Isaiah Stanback
    Tyree Barnes
    Shunn White 
    Nick Moore
    Chad Johnson- TRADE


    maybe so , but we have to have a #1 outside the numbers receiver if this offense is going to be optimized (along with an all purpose backwho can make you pay [ridley?])

    *I'm not really worried about the C position, but if the right guy is there high in the draft, they could definitely snag him, though history states otherwise.  I think they're more likely to grab a kid in the middle to late rounds and develop him as they did Koppen.

    im with the middle round idea

    *ILB however is a definite position of concern for me as arguably their two best inside 'backers (Mayo & Spikes) have both had durability issues as has potential up and comer Dane Fletcher.  This is where I'd like to see them bring in some young talent (Te'o, Kuechly, Burfict, Hightower) and maybe an additional veteran to provide both depth and to help tutor the youngin'. 

    do you think bb can see this too?

    *OLB/43 DE is another perpetual need for this team, but they just don't seem willing to extend a high draft pick on a conversion guy, it'll be interesting to see how this plays out if they decide to stick to more 43.  As for 34 OLB, Courtney Upshaw is and will likely continue to be the hot name as I believe he's already a 34 OLB under Saban.

    upshaw is one oft he guys i came up wioth earlier as well.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** : Hey Lifer, I always go by one philosophy. You should always have one solid vet at every position. This player doesn't need to be a starter but someone who can guide, mentor, and when needed be a starter. That's one reason I really liked Sanders. He was a leader in the S core and played his role well. When they needed him to start he would slide right in without them missing a beat. Same reason I like Connolly. The secondary is missing that type of player in both the S and CB position. I thought Bodden and Sanders were those guys but I guess I was wrong? Ideally I think CB needs a starter that Ras, McCourty, and Arrington can lean on. If they get a solid guy like a Finnegan then I don't think they need to draft a CB high unless a top end CB falls to a point where they are by far and away the best player on the board (Jenkins could be a guy like that). For S though, Ihendigbo is a good STer but Barrett and Brown should be cut at the end of the year. They need some youth and some leadership. I want a vet next to Chung and a young talented FS to learn from the vet. On the DL we have plenty of vet leadership what we need is athletic youth that can get after a QB. In the LB it's a bit different. Again, we could use either a vet who can cover and won't be fooled by play action or a younger athletic LB that can just be let loss. Just on D if I was going into the off-season my targets would be a solid vet for the OLB, FS, and CB position and look towards the draft for a FS, DL, and OLB. On O I really on see 2 positions we need to really worry about, C and WR. With C imo it's always better to get someone young that you can mold around your QB's habits. On WR this year the draft and FA separated out the choices for us (how nice of them). It seems that there are an abundant of quicker outside the number receivers who will be FA's and in the draft there are a number of larger between the number possession WR's. So the question really becomes would you rather have a burner outside the numbers to bump the S's back or a larger possession WR to fight of press at the line and and push the S's inward towards them. Personally given Brady is getting older and his deep pass accuracy has been down lately I want a larger possession WR that will fight for balls and punch D's in the face at the line. So I would head draft
    Posted by PatsEng[/QUOTE]

    eng,
     i am with you on this (although willing to yield to higher priorities than the drafted fs:

    Just on D if I was going into the off-season my targets would be a solid vet for the OLB, FS, and CB position and look towards the draft for a FS, DL, and OLB.

    on this i prefer the outside the numbers receiver. otherwise no matter how good a guy is, the middle and short routes will be covered by good d's. though seems to be true what you say of bradys long completion rate. no matter. without this, our offense can be handled:

    On O I really on see 2 positions we need to really worry about, C and WR. With C imo it's always better to get someone young that you can mold around your QB's habits. On WR this year the draft and FA separated out the choices for us (how nice of them). It seems that there are an abundant of quicker outside the number receivers who will be FA's and in the draft there are a number of larger between the number possession WR's. So the question really becomes would you rather have a burner outside the numbers to bump the S's back or a larger possession WR to fight of press at the line and and push the S's inward towards them. Personally given Brady is getting older and his deep pass accuracy has been down lately I want a larger possession WR that will fight for balls and punch D's in the face at the line. So I would head draft

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from mbeaulieu07. Show mbeaulieu07's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In watching the Florida vs South Carolina game today, it's evident that USC has a lot of talent on the defensive side of the ball.  Jadeveon Clowney is a big, athletic true freshman and will like garner 1st round consideration in 2014, they also have a couple kids that have been mentioned on this thread in DE's Melvin Ingram (6-2 276 RS SR) and Devin Taylor (6-7 260), as well as two DB's that impressed me today in Stephon Gilmore (6-1 195 JR) and DJ Swearinger (5-10 208 Jr).  Ingram is thickly built, athletic kid with excellent burst and athleticism, if he declares, he's sure to be in the disucssion with Courtney Upshaw as a potential edge rusher for this team.  Taylor also made a couple plays and has the length that BB generally prefers, both are players to keep an eye on moving forward.  Gilmore is a good sized CB that played a mix of zone and press man and looked solid in coverage (UF wasn't able to do much of anything down the field which is indicative of their solid pass rush and coverage skills), displaying good awareness and ability to find the football.  He's definitely a kid to keep an eye on as he's a proven commodity in the SEC is looks like a solid fit for NE's zone scheme.  Swearinger looked like an animal on the field, very aggressive and was looking to lay Gators out, but at the same time, took some sound angles and was very secure as a tackler.  I haven't seen him talked about at all (he's only a JR), but I like what I saw.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from natesubs. Show natesubs's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    I think Safety, DE, WR, C, OLB are our biggest needs. in that order.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***



    I don't know how a defense can succeed if it has a bunch of versatile players who can play both 3-4 and 4-3, but noone really killing it in either scheme. I think at some point you have to pick your poison and draft accordingly.

    Lots of mention here about Manti (myself included) and Upshaw. 2 big LBs, perhaps best suited (at least Upshaw) to play 3-4 OLB. 

    Lots of speed at LB in this draft as well. Some nice 4-3 OLB types like Zach Brown which I haven't seen too many folks mention, who can get after the QB quite well. 

    As I am reading through these posts, I see a big mix of talent. Guys that would be nice 4-3 ends, or 3-4 OLB's, or 4-3 DTs. 

    Trying to get inside the mind of BB for a bit. But does he draw a line in the sand in terms of scheme, or is he simply trying to pick the "most versatile" player that can play both schemes equally as well? If this is the case, I think it is a losing proposition. I think you have a higher success rate going after a killer specialist in 1 scheme (4-3 DE) that is known for rushing the passer, rather than going for a kid who played 4-3 DE in college and was so/so (Cunninngham) and trying to convert him to a so-so 3-4 OLB. 
    Sure he can play both, but he doesn't play both that well. I see a lot of this on the current roster. Counter to this would be a guy like Carter. He's a natural 4-3 DE, and it shows.

    THoughts?
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    I'd think getting Brandon Thompson and Michael Floyd in the 1st rd would be pretty nice.

    Getting Jared Crick to fall to us in round 2 along with picking whichever is left of the many 6'4" 255-260lb hybrid DE/OLB types projected in the 2nd round would be great. Or if T.J. McDonals slips to the end of rd 2 then go with the edge rusher in rd. 3

    Having someone projected to go in rd 2 slip to us in rd 3 would be nice. A CB who returns kicks (Cliff Harris) a fire hydrant Center with a mean streak (Ben Jones) a ballhawk FS (Robert Lester) or a powerful blocking TE (Coby Fleener)
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]I think Safety, DE, WR, C, OLB are our biggest needs. in that order.
    Posted by natesubs[/QUOTE]

    i'm with you nate.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***:
    [QUOTE]I'd think getting Brandon Thompson and Michael Floyd in the 1st rd would be pretty nice. Getting Jared Crick to fall to us in round 2 along with picking whichever is left of the many 6'4" 255-260lb hybrid DE/OLB types projected in the 2nd round would be great. Or if T.J. McDonals slips to the end of rd 2 then go with the edge rusher in rd. 3 Having someone projected to go in rd 2 slip to us in rd 3 would be nice. A CB who returns kicks (Cliff Harris) a fire hydrant Center with a mean streak (Ben Jones) a ballhawk FS (Robert Lester) or a powerful blocking TE (Coby Fleener)
    Posted by rameakap[/QUOTE]

    looks like we've highlighted some decent possible top talent for our needs at this point on this thread. let's see who rises, who falls till the end of the year. and speculate as to whether bill can change his spots or if he will live and die being a 1 trick pony for the rest of his time here.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***


    steve sarkesian says barkley is hands down the better nfl qb.

    from what ive seen, i disagree. seen both? your thoughts.
     

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