***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! THANKS TO ALL WHO PARTICIPATED!

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! UPDATED W/ MOCK V3 4/12!

    In response to "Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! UPDATED W/ MOCK V3 4/12!": [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! UPDATED W/ MOCK V3 4/12! : i hear the thinking. im not deterred from taking a wr to upgrade the team no matter how many wr's we cut in preseason. bb may be thinking otherwise. the opportunity for a potentially uncoverable wr to be drafted by a super bowl team is a rare opportunity. re the slot im looking to replace welker which we may even be able to do in fa even. by the way the new nepatriots.com mock is pretty decent though im not in love with chandler jones (at 27). http://www.nepatriotsdraft.com/2012/04/patriots-mock-draft-version-4-0-and-roster-projection.html/2 what do you guy think of jones? their picks: jones,mclellin,trumaine johnson,quick,martin,taylor Posted by bredbru[/QUOTE] I definitely don't like jones in round 1. I can't see him playing olb. He is a 4-3 de and if I was the pats, I would pass on him entirely. I think he looks the part, but played against inferior competition.
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! UPDATED W/ MOCK V3 4/12!

    In response to "Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! UPDATED W/ MOCK V3 4/12!": [QUOTE]Talk about a complete smoke. Oh all the years I've followed the Pats I've never seen them toss up a smoke screen like this: " CSN New England's Tom Curran is hearing from multiple sources that the Patriots would target Alabama S Mark Barron if they made a trade to move up in the draft. The Pats certainly have a need opposite Patrick Chung. They also have the ammo to trade up from No. 27, but they would have to give up quite a bit to move in front of the Cowboys at No. 14. As SI.com's Peter King suggested early in the week, Barron's stock is steadily on the rise." Could this mean they are actually trying to move up, and if so for who? I don't think it's for Barron, makes to much sense. They have a big need at the coverage S position and Barron is the best S in the draft. Also this info getting leaked a week before the draft? So my guess is that they either want a team to take Barron and let another player drop, or they are moving up and are targeting a different player but don't want to reveal who that player is. If it's the player my guess would be either Ingram or Brockers. If it's a team then it has to be either Dal or NYJ. But who would those teams target that the Pats want to drop? Brockers, Upshaw, Perry? Posted by PatsEng[/QUOTE] If its not Barron, my guess it's either brockers or Ingram. Those are the 2 kids I would make a move for, but wouldn't spend both firsts to do it . I have seen Barron mocked to both Dallas and NYJ. Both could use him. I think we would have to get ahead of Dallas to grab Barron. If we did, my guess Dallas goes with brockers, and the jests grab Ingram, upshaw or chandler jones.
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! UPDATED W/ MOCK V3 4/12!

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    [QUOTE]In response to "Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! UPDATED W/ MOCK V3 4/12!": I definitely don't like jones in round 1. I can't see him playing olb. He is a 4-3 de and if I was the pats, I would pass on him entirely. I think he looks the part, but played against inferior competition.
    Posted by PatsLifer[/QUOTE]


    im leaning the same direction as you
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! UPDATED W/ MOCK V3 4/12!

    chandler is a jones i would not want for the pats. i don't like dwight either. i am okay with marvin in the later rounds.
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! UPDATED W/ MOCK V3 4/12!

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! UPDATED W/ MOCK V3 4/12!:
    [QUOTE]chandler is a jones i would not want for the pats. i don't like dwight either. i am okay with marvin in the later rounds.
    Posted by seattlepat70[/QUOTE]

    with you, but with the other bigger outside wrs, i shoot at them first (5 or 6 of them).
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! UPDATED W/ MOCK V3 4/12!

    The news about Shea McClellin already suffering 3 concussions while at BSU is really too bad.  This is a really big deal, and this information alone is enough to knock him back into the third round, in my eyes.  With player safety becoming such a critical issue in today's NFL, a guy like him who suffers multiple concussions could be looking at a brief career. 
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! UPDATED W/ MOCK V3 4/12!

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! UPDATED W/ MOCK V3 4/12!:
    [QUOTE]That is one of the best posts I have ever read! Superb !!
    Posted by jaflentje[/QUOTE]
    Thanks man:)))!!!  Appreciate that.
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! UPDATED W/ MOCK V3 4/12!

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! UPDATED W/ MOCK V3 4/12!:
    [QUOTE]BB's approach to the draft is all about value.  I know this is a phase we all hear repeatedly, but do we truly understand what that means?  I may not fully understand it either but I think it means that BB will take the players at the optimal spot in the draft based on the "value" they represent where chosen.  Each draft is different.  Values are also determined by our team needs and on needs of other teams.  Values are also greatly determined by the depth of talent at each position.  For instance, this is a weak class for QBs, TEs, ILBs and S.  Therefore this drives the value up for these players.  The class is deep at WR, OT, DT, DE, OLB and CB.  This drives the values of these players down.  More on this in a moment.   Here is a true and important statistic, and I love statistics.  As a background, data is everything to me!!!!  An important quote I once heard is, "A man without data is just another a** hole with an opinion."  (A professor shared that quote once and I use it often.  It is not meant as an insult to anyone on here with an opinion because we all have them).  The important statistic is that a player drafted next at the same position has a 50/50 chance to be better than the player drafted ahead of him.   This is based on the last 40 years of draft history.  If we know and accept this, and we study other team needs and understand the depth of each position, we can better navigate through the draft and select based on "value." According to CBS Sports, and you can use any draft site and come to a very similar result, the top 64 players (first 2 rounds) by positional depth are as follows: Offense (31): QB: 4 WR: 8 RB: 6 OT: 7 C/G: 4 TE: 2 Defense (33): DT:  7 DE:  8 OLB: 7 ILB: 2 CB:  8 S:   2 This tells us clearly that if you want a good S or TE you better move fast.  I'm not saying there will be any TEs taken in the first round or that both S will go in round 1.  I'm just saying teams with those needs better act fast because the "value" of these 4 players is high.  Whereas if you need a WR, DE or CB you can wait and address those needs later because there are 8 players in these positions rated in the first two rounds.  This is why I think although Harrison Smith is probably a mid 2nd round talent, his value pushes him up to late 1st, early 2nd.  So if we need a S (and we do), we shouldn't feel bad about taking him at 27 or 31 because that is where his value is, this year, in this class.  With BAL at 29 needed a S, it's a gamble to pass on him at 27 hoping Konz or Hightower slip to 29 and have BAL take one of them instead.  This is also why I'm not getting caught up in all this talk about taking a rush DE/OLB or DT early.  There is "value" later on.  We don't need to spend a 1-2 round pick at WR, or DE either.  There is "value" later on.  So, when arguably our top need is S, we should draft Harrison Smith at 27, not mess around and turn in the card.  We can then trade 31 back as we all know BB will do, and find value in the 2nd or 3rd rounds at DT, WR, DE, OLB etc.
    Posted by Faucetman[/QUOTE]

    i think that is one of two schools of thought on value.

    what you are describing is value as determined by supply and demand (more like supply) on a particular draft. the more players available in a position the lower the price (pick) you have to pay. 

    the position counts you describe above are simply determined by ranking the players, picking the top 64 and counting the number of players that represent each position. this would imply that each class is as good as any other.

    the other school of thought (more difficult) is grading players on an absolute scale. value is determined according to what you think they can actually deliver on the nfl stage. this is a reasonable approach if you believe that some classes are better than others and that the difference can be significant. 

    i believe the latter is what bb does. that is the reason why he sometimes would trade completely out of the first round. i believe he does that if he believes that there's nobody worth a first round pick. he trades up when he thinks there is someone whose ability deserves a higher rate across all drafts. this is also the reason why he makes very surprising picks. he selects players where he thinks the player is worth on an absolute level, which can often be different from the consensus rating for the particular draft. 

    you'd have to believe that you can rate players better than anyone else. i believe bb believes that. if you don't trust yourself as much, you go by the ratings that are determined by the wisdom of the crowd.



     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! UPDATED W/ MOCK V3 4/12!

    Hey Mb,

    Appreciate your thoughts and feedback.  We see eye to eye on most of this, I think including Harrison Smith.  Taking a guy at 27 who might be rated at 47 isn't that bad at this point in the draft.  I think this is where need trumps the rating system especially with our 5 picks in the top 100.  Just a couple comments on your retort...

     I wouldn’t put Randall in the same conversation as Reyes or Wolfe, both of the latter move far better and have more scheme versatility, IMO.  I get what you’re saying, but I don’t think you pass on a kid because you bombed on Brace a few years back.


    Randall may not have the same athletic abilities as Reyes or Wolfe, but he is a leader and hard worker.  I'll take that over marginally better athleticism any day.  A lot of boards have him rated higher than Wolfe.  Don't get me wrong, I like Reyes and Wolfe better than Randall but I can't look past Randall's positives and we are talking about pick 93 for Wolfe or Randall vs. pick 31 for Reyes.  This goes to my "value" comments.  Do you see Reyes as 2 full rounds better?  Better yes, but two full rounds?  Not me. 

    I think they questions on Curry would apply to others like Mercilus and Jones etc… Not sure any of them are ideal fits at 34 OLB, especially Mercilus.  Jones is another kid that I’ve watched and I’m not sure he has the short area quicks/COD to work there fulltime. 
     I’m definitely intrigued by Ronnell Lewis and Bruce Irvin (more natural 34 OLB’s).  The former has a HUGE motor, is extremely physical, has a very good first step and athleticism and would also impact on ST and the latter for all of his off field questions has huge upside as an edge rusher, but would prob be a situational pass rusher only at this point.  Landing one of those kids in Rd 3 would be awesome.


    I spoke a lot about Irvin earlier.  Lewis I think is a bit undersized but I don't even know if we're going to play the 34 or 43 predominately this year.  Patriots.com depth chart shows us in a base 43.  In any event, we all want a pass rusher and what puzzles me is we had one in Mark Anderson and let him go.  Of the possibilities, I like Andre Branch the best, love his size/speed motor and pure potential.  But I worry how good he would be in space.

    I agree on Martin, huge fan.

    This is the fun pick, huh?  The luxury, we don't need it, but can afford to splurge pick.  I loved Doug Martin at Boise State, watched him a ton.  Richardson is the better back and I might even dare say, the best football player in the draft but nearly a full round later, Doug Martin to me represents great value in that he's not only the 2nd best back but he's probably not a full round worse, more like half a round in talent.  I think Doug Martin could be the next Ray Rice and at any point in the draft, that's great value.

    I
     I could see a WR as high as Rd 2, but more realistically I think you could see one in Rd 3 or 4 or if they trade back into Rd 5-7, etc. I too am intrigued by James’ potential in space/on the perimeter… huge big play ability.

    I could see it too, and if there is value there, why not?  I could like Jeffrey at 62 if he's there but I'm more inclined to get a slot/return man if I'm going after a wide out.

    Mb, What I really wanted to say is that I love your draft board.  Although I don't comment upon it often, I study each version you put out.  The reason I like it and value it so much is because this is exactly what BB does and only a very select few, like maybe 4 people, get to see it each year.  If there is one criticism, you have too many players on your board to represent BB's board.  I heard from a reliable source that he has 30-40 names spread out over every round and that's it.  For all we know, he's ruled out half of your board for one reason or another that we may never be privy to.  But your board is the closest thing any of us as done to try to mimic what BB does, so for that, I thank you.  Love it man!!

     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! UPDATED W/ MOCK V3 4/12!

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! UPDATED W/ MOCK V3 4/12!:
    [QUOTE]Given that they already have 73/74 players on the 80 man roster with all the FA signings this is one year that I could see them spending draft picks to move up: the logical spots could be 11-13, 15, 17-22. 11-13 would cost both 1st rounders with maybe improving 48 by 3 or 4 picks or some late rounders and would probably be for Cox or Ingram. 15 might be for Barron and would cost some combination of 1st and 2nd rounder plus. 17-22 might be for Brockers, Gilmore, Kirkpatrick (or shocker DeCastro?) and would cost a first and a second or third. I think the first two options would only happen if they grade out the other DE, OLB, DT, and S options as second rounders as they would have a wide selection at significantly lower cost from 17 on. (I see first round grades as sure things, second rounders as more 50/50 propositions.)
    Posted by mia76[/QUOTE]
    With the rookie pay scale, moving up is more of a possibility for us than years past because the financial risk to do so has been mitigated.  However, BB is still a disciple of value.  He loves accumulating picks, especially in the lower rounds.  BB understands that the draft is a crap shoot and the more times you get the throw the dice, the better your chances. 

    He hasn't made a big move up in the first round since 2002 (Daniel Graham) and that was from what, 32 to 21?  Since then he's only moved up once in the first and that was one spot for Ty Warren in what, 2003?  Since then he has been all about moving down and acquiring more picks.

    This year I could see us possibly taking our guy at 27 (I'm going to be lobbying for Harrison Smith until draft day), then either taking or trading picks 31 or 47 into next year for a 1st.  Every team knows each of our picks are for sale.  We just let them come to us much in the way Dan Aykroyd and Eddie Murphy did in Trading Places when they cornered the market on frozen concentrated orange juice.

    But I agree totally with your premise.  This team is good enough now to win the division and make it deep into the play-offs but we've done nothing to improve the secondary.  I think Ihedigbo is a better safety than Stephen Gregory and Will Allen is 103 in football years.  This is why if Kirkpatrick is there at 27, he gets the nod from me and we hope Smith gets past BAL because I'm taking him at 31.  If we added Kirkpatrick and Smith and did nothing else, like traded the rest into 2013, we'd have a SB contender again.
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! UPDATED W/ MOCK V3 4/12!

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! UPDATED W/ MOCK V3 4/12!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! UPDATED W/ MOCK V3 4/12! : i think that is one of two schools of thought on value. what you are describing is value as determined by supply and demand (more like supply) on a particular draft. the more players available in a position the lower the price (pick) you have to pay.  the position counts you describe above are simply determined by ranking the players, picking the top 64 and counting the number of players that represent each position. this would imply that each class is as good as any other. the other school of thought (more difficult) is grading players on an absolute scale. value is determined according to what you think they can actually deliver on the nfl stage. this is a reasonable approach if you believe that some classes are better than others and that the difference can be significant.  i believe the latter is what bb does. that is the reason why he sometimes would trade completely out of the first round. i believe he does that if he believes that there's nobody worth a first round pick. he trades up when he thinks there is someone whose ability deserves a higher rate across all drafts. this is also the reason why he makes very surprising picks. he selects players where he thinks the player is worth on an absolute level, which can often be different from the consensus rating for the particular draft.  you'd have to believe that you can rate players better than anyone else. i believe bb believes that. if you don't trust yourself as much, you go by the ratings that are determined by the wisdom of the crowd.
    Posted by seattlepat70[/QUOTE]
    This is another school of thought and a good one that I need to consider.  Well done Seattle!!!  But my point was based on answering the question, "How do we improve our team this year?" 

    Your premise crosses years and I do think it is a strong element to the value proposition we are discussing.  Case in point, Wes Welker.  What value does BB place on a slot receiver, who he helped create, as he approaches 31?  Obviously not north of $10MM.  The top 2 slot receivers in the NFL went undrafted so who's to say the next Welker or Cruz isn't sitting out there in the 7th round or later?

    I do agree strongly with your statement about if "nobody worth a first round pick" he trades down.  But I don't think he trades up because someone slipped and is worthy of a higher pick so much as he trades up to get his guy before someone does like we saw with Gronk in 2010. 
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! UPDATED W/ MOCK V3 4/12!

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! UPDATED W/ MOCK V3 4/12!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! UPDATED W/ MOCK V3 4/12! : This is another school of thought and a good one that I need to consider.  Well done Seattle!!!  But my point was based on answering the question, "How do we improve our team this year?"  Your premise crosses years and I do think it is a strong element to the value proposition we are discussing.  Case in point, Wes Welker.  What value does BB place on a slot receiver, who he helped create, as he approaches 31?  Obviously not north of $10MM.  The top 2 slot receivers in the NFL went undrafted so who's to say the next Welker or Cruz isn't sitting out there in the 7th round or later? I do agree strongly with your statement about if "nobody worth a first round pick" he trades down.  But I don't think he trades up because someone slipped and is worthy of a higher pick so much as he trades up to get his guy before someone does like we saw with Gronk in 2010. 
    Posted by Faucetman[/QUOTE]

    I think Seattle brings up very valid points that we have proof of BB's value system actually. Remember the war room video where each player had a value next to their name. Now those values were based on the actually player and from the few names we did see depth at the position didn't appear to be a calculation in that value system. Such as, I believe, BB takes the players he wants regardless of depth of position or place in draft. If he likes a guy he grabs him, as you said, before someone else does but not above his value. BB has never been a person to allow other teams dictate his actions so, why would he allow the supply of a position dictate the value he places on a certain player? This, imo is what makes him so unpredictable. For example if BB likes Barron and Smith and Barron is taken early then I don't see him grabbing Smith in the 1st if he has Smith with a mid 2nd grade. He's more likely to take the next player on his board or to trade the pick back to the middle of the 2nd to get Smith, not to overdraft him (See Butler and Chung). I don't think BB ever overdrafts in his mind. He takes players at the positions he thinks they belong or later but never sooner and if he thinks their grades are higher then everyone else (Mankins, Vollmer) then he doesn't hesistate to take them at the position where he views that value
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! UPDATED W/ MOCK V3 4/12!

    PatsEng - I agree, with the exception of not drafting a player however highly he grades him if the team has no need. Case in point, wouldn't be surprised if BB graded Mallet as late 1st/early 2nd round - he passed on him until the third because the team had no real need, but by the third the round the 'Value' of Mallet was impossible to pass up. And same for Cannon later.
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! UPDATED W/ MOCK V3 4/12!

    Ok time for my mock v2.53$Ij1@3 the 3rd

    Now I warn you that some might not like the draft but I'm taking in certain factors I feel are important into the decision. Some of which include Barron and Brockers being taken in the teens and BB not trading up for either player.

    #27 - Andre Branch OLB/DE - Now this is a tough one as BB passes on Upshaw and MB needs to buy a new TV after throwing the remote through it. The reason I'm going with Branch is his ability to drop back and cover. Scott, if healthy, has shown to be a rush LB and so has Nin. Though I do feel like a dominant edge rusher is required I also feel that any edge rusher BB targets also needs to cover another weakness that has plagued this D for a number of years now. Namely being able to cover underneath routes. Branch's got tremendous size that BB looks for with 4.6 speed and good agility to add to it. He was asked to drop back into coverages at times and looked pretty natural doing so. The other big key is that he has a very extensive amount of pass rushing moves and uses his hands very effectively. He was also one of the best on the bigger OLB/DE hybreds in terms of 3 cone and short shuttle time with a very good closing burst. The combo of pass rushing ability and coverage ability trumps all else in this draft

    #31 - Trade to Clev who takes Weeden - Clev wants a QB who could start right away and Weeden is the most pocket ready QB in this draft. Now who ever misses out on Tannehill might also be looking to move up and get Weeden so the Browns part with their 3rd this year and a 1st next year to get their QB

    #48 - Traded - I don't know who yet but the value at this pick could be to great to resist. In return the Pats get a 4th this year along with a 1st next year

    #63 - Derek Wolfe DE - I know people want more but honestly in the back of the 1st you are talking Reyes and Still. Wolfe has a ton of potential as a LDE. Reyes isn't a full round better then Wolfe so the value is there. The addition of Wolfe also sets up for a quick but large 43 front as well as a quicker 34 front. How I envision it is Fenena at RDE and Wolfe as LDE on all fronts with Wilfork as NT in 34 and Love and Wilfork as DT's in a 43. Perry remains weak side with Mayo as strong side in 43 and Spikes in the middle and Nin as strong LOLB in the 34 with Mayo and Spikes in the middle

    #67 (from Clev trade) - Josh Robinson CB - Robinson is a player on the rise with tremendous speed and what might be most important to BB the best cone. He could present an upgrade to both Arrington and Moore so BB takes a chance on the kid and grabs him at the beginning of the 3rd

    #93 - Marvin Jones WR - BB tends to take a WR with potential late in the 3rd and M Jones is that guy this time around. He had the 4th best 3 cone for WR's at the combine, has goood size, and can find D's soft spots all things BB looks for in a WR

    #107 (Hoyer traded to KC) - Brandon Brooks G/T - KC missed out on Weeden and Tannehill but they still want a new QB. The Pats don't want to keep both Hoyer and Mallett and since they can't get a 2nd for Mallett they get what they can for Hoyer. As for Brooks he's a super sleeper. Think Cannon potential he would be a steal early in the 4th. He has the ability to play both T positions and G positions. He's extremely athletic for his size with great speed and impressive footwork. He'll be a good find to add depth

    4th (acquired in 2nd round trade) - Ron Brooks DB - BB dbls up at the DB position taking a player they've looked at 3 times already. He will convert Brooks to a FS and use a combo of him and McCourty between CB and FS depending on scheme and opponent. This completes BB's DB rebuild and he couldn't be happier

    #126 - Traded to Phi - In the annual Phi trade the Pats send #126 to Phi along with Arrington for Phi's 5th and 6th this year and 3rd next year. Phi is going to need a cheap replacement for Samuel and the Pats after drafting Robinson no longer need the extra 4th CB with the emergence of Moore so it makes sense for both sides

    Phi's 5th - Chris Rainey RB - The Pats get their return man in Rainey and potential long term Faulk replacement if he's still available in the 5th

    Phi's 6th - traded for 5th next year - This is to replace the 5th traded for Ocho in next years draft

    In total they get:

    Branch OLB/DE
    Wolfe DE
    Robinson CB
    Brooks DB
    Jones WR
    Brooks G/T
    Rainey RB

    Along with 2 extra 1sts next year, a 3rd next year, and a 5th next year

    Make it happen

     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! UPDATED W/ MOCK V3 4/12!

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! UPDATED W/ MOCK V3 4/12!:
    [QUOTE]Hey Mb, Appreciate your thoughts and feedback.  We see eye to eye on most of this, I think including Harrison Smith.  Taking a guy at 27 who might be rated at 47 isn't that bad at this point in the draft.  I think this is where need trumps the rating system especially with our 5 picks in the top 100.  Just a couple comments on your retort...   I wouldn’t put Randall in the same conversation as Reyes or Wolfe, both of the latter move far better and have more scheme versatility, IMO.   I get what you’re saying, but I don’t think you pass on a kid because you bombed on Brace a few years back. Randall may not have the same athletic abilities as Reyes or Wolfe, but he is a leader and hard worker.  I'll take that over marginally better athleticism any day.  A lot of boards have him rated higher than Wolfe.  Don't get me wrong, I like Reyes and Wolfe better than Randall but I can't look past Randall's positives and we are talking about pick 93 for Wolfe or Randall vs. pick 31 for Reyes.  This goes to my "value" comments.  Do you see Reyes as 2 full rounds better?  Better yes, but two full rounds?  Not me.  I think they questions on Curry would apply to others like Mercilus and Jones etc… Not sure any of them are ideal fits at 34 OLB, especially Mercilus.   Jones is another kid that I’ve watched and I’m not sure he has the short area quicks/COD to work there fulltime.     I’m definitely intrigued by Ronnell Lewis and Bruce Irvin (more natural 34 OLB’s).   The former has a HUGE motor, is extremely physical, has a very good first step and athleticism and would also impact on ST and the latter for all of his off field questions has huge upside as an edge rusher, but would prob be a situational pass rusher only at this point.   Landing one of those kids in Rd 3 would be awesome. I spoke a lot about Irvin earlier.  Lewis I think is a bit undersized but I don't even know if we're going to play the 34 or 43 predominately this year.  Patriots.com depth chart shows us in a base 43.  In any event, we all want a pass rusher and what puzzles me is we had one in Mark Anderson and let him go.  Of the possibilities, I like Andre Branch the best, love his size/speed motor and pure potential.  But I worry how good he would be in space. I agree on Martin, huge fan. This is the fun pick, huh?  The luxury, we don't need it, but can afford to splurge pick.  I loved Doug Martin at Boise State, watched him a ton.  Richardson is the better back and I might even dare say, the best football player in the draft but nearly a full round later, Doug Martin to me represents great value in that he's not only the 2nd best back but he's probably not a full round worse, more like half a round in talent.  I think Doug Martin could be the next Ray Rice and at any point in the draft, that's great value. I   I could see a WR as high as Rd 2, but more realistically I think you could see one in Rd 3 or 4 or if they trade back into Rd 5-7, etc.   I too am intrigued by James’ potential in space/on the perimeter… huge big play ability. I could see it too, and if there is value there, why not?  I could like Jeffrey at 62 if he's there but I'm more inclined to get a slot/return man if I'm going after a wide out. Mb, What I really wanted to say is that I love your draft board.  Although I don't comment upon it often, I study each version you put out.  The reason I like it and value it so much is because this is exactly what BB does and only a very select few, like maybe 4 people, get to see it each year.  If there is one criticism, you have too many players on your board to represent BB's board.  I heard from a reliable source that he has 30-40 names spread out over every round and that's it.  For all we know, he's ruled out half of your board for one reason or another that we may never be privy to.  But your board is the closest thing any of us as done to try to mimic what BB does, so for that, I thank you.  Love it man!!
    Posted by Faucetman[/QUOTE]

    Hey Mb,

    Hey man, Happy Friday… this time next week I’ll prob be returning from the Patriot’s Pro Shop with my new Barron jersey, ha.

    Randall may not have the same athletic abilities as Reyes or Wolfe, but he is a leader and hard worker.  I'll take that over marginally better athleticism any day.  A lot of boards have him rated higher than Wolfe.  Don't get me wrong, I like Reyes and Wolfe better than Randall but I can't look past Randall's positives and we are talking about pick 93 for Wolfe or Randall vs. pick 31 for Reyes.  This goes to my "value" comments.  Do you see Reyes as 2 full rounds better?  Better yes, but two full rounds?  Not me.  I think Randall has a spot on the NE roster as he has very good size, strength at the POA and projects nicely as a 2-gapper that can clog up run lanes… I also think he plays with a good motor and has the intangibles that you look for, I just don’t think he’ll offer a lot no 3rd down, which is where I think Reyes/Wolfe have more upside.   I have Reyes as a Rd 1-2 kid and I do think he’s at least a Rd or two better prospect than Randall based on his athleticism, movement ability and scheme versatility.

    I think they questions on Curry would apply to others like Mercilus and Jones etc… Not sure any of them are ideal fits at 34 OLB, especially Mercilus.  Jones is another kid that I’ve watched and I’m not sure he has the short area quicks/COD to work there fulltime.   I’m definitely intrigued by Ronnell Lewis and Bruce Irvin (more natural 34 OLB’s).  The former has a HUGE motor, is extremely physical, has a very good first step and athleticism and would also impact on ST and the latter for all of his off field questions has huge upside as an edge rusher, but would prob be a situational pass rusher only at this point.  Landing one of those kids in Rd 3 would be awesome.


    I spoke a lot about Irvin earlier.  Lewis I think is a bit undersized but I don't even know if we're going to play the 34 or 43 predominately this year.  Patriots.com depth chart shows us in a base 43.  In any event, we all want a pass rusher and what puzzles me is we had one in Mark Anderson and let him go.  Of the possibilities, I like Andre Branch the best, love his size/speed motor and pure potential.  But I worry how good he would be in space.
    I don’t doubt that they’ll play some 43, but I just think (and this isn’t based on anything factual) that BB would prefer to return to a base 34.  I think BB would’ve liked to bring Anderson back, just not at what he received from Buffalo.  Kid def has some intriguing size/length/athleticism.


    This is the fun pick, huh?  The luxury, we don't need it, but can afford to splurge pick.  I loved Doug Martin at Boise State, watched him a ton.  Richardson is the better back and I might even dare say, the best football player in the draft but nearly a full round later, Doug Martin to me represents great value in that he's not only the 2nd best back but he's probably not a full round worse, more like half a round in talent.  I think Doug Martin could be the next Ray Rice and at any point in the draft, that's great value.
    Yeah, they should def be able to land this kid at 31 if they want him, nice to have the luxury/flexibility of extra picks… would also be fun to track his career vs. Ingram’s as he was the kid that passed on/traded out to NO for at 28 last year.

    Mb, What I really wanted to say is that I love your draft board.  Although I don't comment upon it often, I study each version you put out.  The reason I like it and value it so much is because this is exactly what BB does and only a very select few, like maybe 4 people, get to see it each year.  If there is one criticism, you have too many players on your board to represent BB's board.  I heard from a reliable source that he has 30-40 names spread out over every round and that's it.  For all we know, he's ruled out half of your board for one reason or another that we may never be privy to.  But your board is the closest thing any of us as done to try to mimic what BB does, so for that, I thank you.  Love it man!! Thanks man, it’s been fun and kinda keeps me honest, forces me to evaluate players that much closer to ensure I’m not just adding every possible player that could be picked in those rounds, etc… looking for kids that I think what they’re looking for.If forced to post my Overall 40 for Rd 1-7, below is what I’d go with today (made sure to include 5-7 round kids vs. having all Rd 1-4 kids).

    *NOTE* I'd love to add Coby Fleener to the list, but I just don't see them targeting a TE high .
     
    S- Mark Barron
    DL- Fletcher Cox
    DL- Michael Brockers
    LB- Courtney Upshaw
    CB- Dre Kirkpatrick
    LB- Donta Hightower
    CB/S- Stephon Gilmore
    DL- Kendall Reyes
    LB- Shea McClellin
    S- Harrison Smith
    RB- Doug Martin
    CB- Josh Robinson
    CB- Jayron Hosley
    OG- Amini Silatolu
    OT- Bobby Massie
    WR- Marvin Jones
    OLB- Ronnell Lewis
    OLB- Bruce Irvin
    OLB/DE- Cam Johnson
    OG- Senio Kelemete
    S- George Iloka
    DL- Derek Wolfe
    CB- Casey Hayward
    WR- Greg Childs
    WR- Joe Adams
    CB/S- Ron Brooks
    DE/OLB- Jake Bequette
    WR- Devon Wylie
    CB- Shaun Prater
    OG- Joe Looney
    S- Brandon Taylor
    LB- Miles Burris
    CB/S- Robert Blanton
    RB- Jonas Gray
    WR- Danny Coale
    OL- Bryce Harris
    DL- Armond Armstead
    DL- Matt Conrath
    DB Jordan Bernstine
    C/OG- Quentin Saulsberry
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! UPDATED W/ MOCK V3 4/12!

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! UPDATED W/ MOCK V3 4/12!:
    [QUOTE]Ok time for my mock v2.53$Ij1@3 the 3rd Now I warn you that some might not like the draft but I'm taking in certain factors I feel are important into the decision. Some of which include Barron and Brockers being taken in the teens and BB not trading up for either player. #27 - Andre Branch OLB/DE - Now this is a tough one as BB passes on Upshaw and MB needs to buy a new TV after throwing the remote through it. The reason I'm going with Branch is his ability to drop back and cover. Scott, if healthy, has shown to be a rush LB and so has Nin. Though I do feel like a dominant edge rusher is required I also feel that any edge rusher BB targets also needs to cover another weakness that has plagued this D for a number of years now. Namely being able to cover underneath routes. Branch's got tremendous size that BB looks for with 4.6 speed and good agility to add to it. He was asked to drop back into coverages at times and looked pretty natural doing so. The other big key is that he has a very extensive amount of pass rushing moves and uses his hands very effectively. He was also one of the best on the bigger OLB/DE hybreds in terms of 3 cone and short shuttle time with a very good closing burst. The combo of pass rushing ability and coverage ability trumps all else in this draft #31 - Trade to Clev who takes Weeden - Clev wants a QB who could start right away and Weeden is the most pocket ready QB in this draft. Now who ever misses out on Tannehill might also be looking to move up and get Weeden so the Browns part with their 3rd this year and a 1st next year to get their QB #48 - Traded - I don't know who yet but the value at this pick could be to great to resist. In return the Pats get a 4th this year along with a 1st next year #63 - Derek Wolfe DE - I know people want more but honestly in the back of the 1st you are talking Reyes and Still. Wolfe has a ton of potential as a LDE. Reyes isn't a full round better then Wolfe so the value is there. The addition of Wolfe also sets up for a quick but large 43 front as well as a quicker 34 front. How I envision it is Fenena at RDE and Wolfe as LDE on all fronts with Wilfork as NT in 34 and Love and Wilfork as DT's in a 43. Perry remains weak side with Mayo as strong side in 43 and Spikes in the middle and Nin as strong LOLB in the 34 with Mayo and Spikes in the middle #67 (from Clev trade) - Josh Robinson CB - Robinson is a player on the rise with tremendous speed and what might be most important to BB the best cone. He could present an upgrade to both Arrington and Moore so BB takes a chance on the kid and grabs him at the beginning of the 3rd #93 - Marvin Jones WR - BB tends to take a WR with potential late in the 3rd and M Jones is that guy this time around. He had the 4th best 3 cone for WR's at the combine, has goood size, and can find D's soft spots all things BB looks for in a WR #107 (Hoyer traded to KC) - Brandon Brooks G/T - KC missed out on Weeden and Tannehill but they still want a new QB. The Pats don't want to keep both Hoyer and Mallett and since they can't get a 2nd for Mallett they get what they can for Hoyer. As for Brooks he's a super sleeper. Think Cannon potential he would be a steal early in the 4th. He has the ability to play both T positions and G positions. He's extremely athletic for his size with great speed and impressive footwork. He'll be a good find to add depth 4th (acquired in 2nd round trade) - Ron Brooks DB - BB dbls up at the DB position taking a player they've looked at 3 times already. He will convert Brooks to a FS and use a combo of him and McCourty between CB and FS depending on scheme and opponent. This completes BB's DB rebuild and he couldn't be happier #126 - Traded to Phi - In the annual Phi trade the Pats send #126 to Phi along with Arrington for Phi's 5th and 6th this year and 3rd next year. Phi is going to need a cheap replacement for Samuel and the Pats after drafting Robinson no longer need the extra 4th CB with the emergence of Moore so it makes sense for both sides Phi's 5th - Chris Rainey RB - The Pats get their return man in Rainey and potential long term Faulk replacement if he's still available in the 5th Phi's 6th - traded for 5th next year - This is to replace the 5th traded for Ocho in next years draft In total they get: Branch OLB/DE Wolfe DE Robinson CB Brooks DB Jones WR Brooks G/T Rainey RB Along with 2 extra 1sts next year, a 3rd next year, and a 5th next year Make it happen
    Posted by PatsEng[/QUOTE]

    Haha spot on with that one... If Upshaw is on the board and they go with Branch, I'll be at Best Buy first thing Friday morning to procure another 51" Samsung Plasma.

    As a hole I'd like a lot of the talent that he brough in, as well as the ammo for next year/the future in regards to picks.

    If they're gonna sling Hoyer, that would signal a ton of confidence in Mallet and a 4th rounder is realistic as he's not game proven at the NFL level.

    On the negative side, I'd be pretty pissed if they pass completely on a pure S in this class... believe me, I love the idea of Brooks and/or Robinson, but they need some size back there, and DMC, Gregory and Brooks do not provide that.
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! UPDATED W/ MOCK V3 4/12!

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! UPDATED W/ MOCK V3 4/12!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! UPDATED W/ MOCK V3 4/12! : Haha spot on with that one... If Upshaw is on the board and they go with Branch, I'll be at Best Buy first thing Friday morning to procure another 51" Samsung Plasma. As a hole I'd like a lot of the talent that he brough in, as well as the ammo for next year/the future in regards to picks. If they're gonna sling Hoyer, that would signal a ton of confidence in Mallet and a 4th rounder is realistic as he's not game proven at the NFL level. On the negative side, I'd be pretty pissed if they pass completely on a pure S in this class... believe me, I love the idea of Brooks and/or Robinson, but they need some size back there, and DMC, Gregory and Brooks do not provide that.
    Posted by mbeaulieu07[/QUOTE]

    Normally I would have agreed about larger S's until I saw Brown, Ihedigbo, and Barrett try to play FS and it failed horribly. Matter a fact the only time that the FS position was able to have any type of coverage at all was when Moore and McCourty was back there. The league is turning into a pass happy league and I really feel most teams are looking for 3 cb's on the field at all times. A player like Brooks or McCourty have 200+ size which is large enough imo to hit hard. Personally I think the FS position is turning into a 200+ CB who doesn't have the most fluid hips but has 4.5 speed and can play man or zone. Less of a SS/FS like Chung and more like a CB/FS like Reed

     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! UPDATED W/ MOCK V3 4/12!

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! UPDATED W/ MOCK V3 4/12!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! UPDATED W/ MOCK V3 4/12! : Normally I would have agreed about larger S's until I saw Brown, Ihedigbo, and Barrett try to play FS and it failed horribly. Matter a fact the only time that the FS position was able to have any type of coverage at all was when Moore and McCourty was back there. The league is turning into a pass happy league and I really feel most teams are looking for 3 cb's on the field at all times. A player like Brooks or McCourty have 200+ size which is large enough imo to hit hard. Personally I think the FS position is turning into a 200+ CB who doesn't have the most fluid hips but has 4.5 speed and can play man or zone. Less of a SS/FS like Chung and more like a CB/FS like Reed
    Posted by PatsEng[/QUOTE]

    Brown and Ihedigbo are both undrafted scrubs and Barrett has been injured to often to show anything.  Brooks is 5-10 190, DMC is 5-10 193 and Gregory is 5-11 195.

    DMC in particular has had a hard time handling skilled receivers with size, not sure how much better he'd fair against big athletic TE's.
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! UPDATED W/ MOCK V3 4/12!

    In response to "Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! UPDATED W/ MOCK V3 4/12!": [QUOTE]Ok time for my mock v2.53$Ij1@3 the 3rd Now I warn you that some might not like the draft but I'm taking in certain factors I feel are important into the decision. Some of which include Barron and Brockers being taken in the teens and BB not trading up for either player. #27 - Andre Branch OLB/DE - Now this is a tough one as BB passes on Upshaw and MB needs to buy a new TV after throwing the remote through it. The reason I'm going with Branch is his ability to drop back and cover. Scott, if healthy, has shown to be a rush LB and so has Nin. Though I do feel like a dominant edge rusher is required I also feel that any edge rusher BB targets also needs to cover another weakness that has plagued this D for a number of years now. Namely being able to cover underneath routes. Branch's got tremendous size that BB looks for with 4.6 speed and good agility to add to it. He was asked to drop back into coverages at times and looked pretty natural doing so. The other big key is that he has a very extensive amount of pass rushing moves and uses his hands very effectively. He was also one of the best on the bigger OLB/DE hybreds in terms of 3 cone and short shuttle time with a very good closing burst. The combo of pass rushing ability and coverage ability trumps all else in this draft #31 - Trade to Clev who takes Weeden - Clev wants a QB who could start right away and Weeden is the most pocket ready QB in this draft. Now who ever misses out on Tannehill might also be looking to move up and get Weeden so the Browns part with their 3rd this year and a 1st next year to get their QB #48 - Traded - I don't know who yet but the value at this pick could be to great to resist. In return the Pats get a 4th this year along with a 1st next year #63 - Derek Wolfe DE - I know people want more but honestly in the back of the 1st you are talking Reyes and Still. Wolfe has a ton of potential as a LDE. Reyes isn't a full round better then Wolfe so the value is there. The addition of Wolfe also sets up for a quick but large 43 front as well as a quicker 34 front. How I envision it is Fenena at RDE and Wolfe as LDE on all fronts with Wilfork as NT in 34 and Love and Wilfork as DT's in a 43. Perry remains weak side with Mayo as strong side in 43 and Spikes in the middle and Nin as strong LOLB in the 34 with Mayo and Spikes in the middle #67 (from Clev trade) - Josh Robinson CB - Robinson is a player on the rise with tremendous speed and what might be most important to BB the best cone. He could present an upgrade to both Arrington and Moore so BB takes a chance on the kid and grabs him at the beginning of the 3rd #93 - Marvin Jones WR - BB tends to take a WR with potential late in the 3rd and M Jones is that guy this time around. He had the 4th best 3 cone for WR's at the combine, has goood size, and can find D's soft spots all things BB looks for in a WR #107 (Hoyer traded to KC) - Brandon Brooks G/T - KC missed out on Weeden and Tannehill but they still want a new QB. The Pats don't want to keep both Hoyer and Mallett and since they can't get a 2nd for Mallett they get what they can for Hoyer. As for Brooks he's a super sleeper. Think Cannon potential he would be a steal early in the 4th. He has the ability to play both T positions and G positions. He's extremely athletic for his size with great speed and impressive footwork. He'll be a good find to add depth 4th (acquired in 2nd round trade) - Ron Brooks DB - BB dbls up at the DB position taking a player they've looked at 3 times already. He will convert Brooks to a FS and use a combo of him and McCourty between CB and FS depending on scheme and opponent. This completes BB's DB rebuild and he couldn't be happier #126 - Traded to Phi - In the annual Phi trade the Pats send #126 to Phi along with Arrington for Phi's 5th and 6th this year and 3rd next year. Phi is going to need a cheap replacement for Samuel and the Pats after drafting Robinson no longer need the extra 4th CB with the emergence of Moore so it makes sense for both sides Phi's 5th - Chris Rainey RB - The Pats get their return man in Rainey and potential long term Faulk replacement if he's still available in the 5th Phi's 6th - traded for 5th next year - This is to replace the 5th traded for Ocho in next years draft In total they get: Branch OLB/DE Wolfe DE Robinson CB Brooks DB Jones WR Brooks G/T Rainey RB Along with 2 extra 1sts next year, a 3rd next year, and a 5th next year Make it happen Posted by PatsEng[/QUOTE] The 2 players high on my draft board for the pats are Branch and Wolfe, so of course very happy with this draft because it does us well this year, and sets us up big time for future years. What's not to like? I will agree with mb on the safety comment however. This is a question I brought up months ago. With relatively little talent in this years draft at the position and bb's penchant for value, I am not convinced he grabs a pure safety, but rather converts a big corner for all the reasons you list in your reply back to mb. Personally, I don't see a good fs available after Barron, smith and Johnson and Johnson has some off the field concerns.
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! UPDATED W/ MOCK V3 4/12!

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! UPDATED W/ MOCK V3 4/12!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! UPDATED W/ MOCK V3 4/12! : Normally I would have agreed about larger S's until I saw Brown, Ihedigbo, and Barrett try to play FS and it failed horribly. Matter a fact the only time that the FS position was able to have any type of coverage at all was when Moore and McCourty was back there. The league is turning into a pass happy league and I really feel most teams are looking for 3 cb's on the field at all times. A player like Brooks or McCourty have 200+ size which is large enough imo to hit hard. Personally I think the FS position is turning into a 200+ CB who doesn't have the most fluid hips but has 4.5 speed and can play man or zone. Less of a SS/FS like Chung and more like a CB/FS like Reed
    Posted by PatsEng[/QUOTE]

    +1
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! UPDATED W/ MOCK V3 4/12!

    One thing to also note is that next years draft is suppose to be loaded in the S position. I pretty sure 3 1st round picks we can get a real S next year if Brooks can't make the transition. At worst he becomes a 3rd 4th S behind Ras, Robinson, McCourty or a 2nd FS which for a 4th round pick isn't bad at all
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! UPDATED W/ MOCK V3 4/12!

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! UPDATED W/ MOCK V3 4/12!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! UPDATED W/ MOCK V3 4/12! : Brown and Ihedigbo are both undrafted scrubs and Barrett has been injured to often to show anything.  Brooks is 5-10 190, DMC is 5-10 193 and Gregory is 5-11 195. DMC in particular has had a hard time handling skilled receivers with size, not sure how much better he'd fair against big athletic TE's.
    Posted by mbeaulieu07[/QUOTE]

    That's why you have Chung, to cover the TE's and RB releases closer to the line. The FS position is usually set further back in a zone coverage anyways to help over the top.

     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! UPDATED W/ MOCK V3 4/12!

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! UPDATED W/ MOCK V3 4/12!:
    [QUOTE]One thing to also note is that next years draft is suppose to be loaded in the S position. I pretty sure 3 1st round picks we can get a real S next year if Brooks can't make the transition. At worst he becomes a 3rd 4th S behind Ras, Robinson, McCourty or a 2nd FS which for a 4th round pick isn't bad at all
    Posted by PatsEng[/QUOTE]

    i was just going to say... all this talk about safeties is making me drool at next year's class. sorry for doing this this early

    tj mcdonald
    eric reid (this is the guy i want if he comes out)
    robert lester
    rayray armstrong - a 6-4 ex qb playing s
    kenny tate - a 6-4 olb who also plays s

    and then there are the tall CBs
    david amerson, 6-3
    jonathan banks, 6-2
    xavier rhodes, 6-2
    david milliner, 6-1




     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! UPDATED W/ MOCK V3 4/12!

    Doug Martin , RB:

    I've watched some video of Doug Martin and Shane Vereen.

    It looks like Doug Martin is a better back. More decisive, hits the holes quicker, runs with more aggression.

    He's also a bigger/thicker back that could better take the pounding.

    Would you guys take him @ #31?

     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! UPDATED W/ MOCK V3 4/12!

    not a running back at 31. I'd like to see defensive playmakers with at least 3 of their first 4 picks. 
     

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