***2012 Patriots Draft Thread***! THANKS TO ALL WHO PARTICIPATED!

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** MOCK V1 ADDED

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    BRD - I do think McClellin would be an upgrade the same way Vrable was an upgrade when he was on the team. Just a solid overall player you can play anywhere on the field on all 3 downs. Against the run you play him back in the OLB position and give him an assist (Chung) like we did with Vrable and Harrison and he'll be fine. On passing plays he either stays in the box for underneath coverage or he gets pushed to the edge as a rusher with his hand in the dirt or off set edge. McClellin might be the most solid prospect you can find in the late second but like Vrable he won't be an impact player. If we get that impact rusher with one of the earlier picks then McClellin is a very strong pickup upgrading from Nin and White.  But, I'd rather grab Wolfe if we didn't grab a DE/DT earlier
    Posted by PatsEng

    BRD - I do think McClellin would be an upgrade the same way Vrable was an upgrade when he was on the team. Just a solid overall player you can play anywhere on the field on all 3 downs.

    Against the run you play him back in the OLB position and give him an assist (Chung) like we did with Vrable and Harrison and he'll be fine. On passing plays he either stays in the box for underneath coverage or he gets pushed to the edge as a rusher with his hand in the dirt or off set edge.

    McClellin might be the most solid prospect you can find in the late second but like Vrable he won't be an impact player. If we get that impact rusher with one of the earlier picks then McClellin is a very strong pickup upgrading from Nin and White. 

    But, I'd rather grab Wolfe if we didn't grab a DE/DT earlier

    thanks eng for the review and analyis, 
       how great an upgrade given sacrificing a 2nd rd draft pick, if we get a lb and we need one?we gotta get a faster lb that can stop the run and cover AND one that can stand up on the edge.
    getting another so so lb doenst do it for me. rather go fa and use our picks to get playmakers at key positions where players in the draft are available.

    i have not seen film on mcclelin. saw their game earlier in the year while at the gym.

    do you have a review of wolfe


     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** MOCK V1 ADDED

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    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** MOCK V1 ADDED : re" Spikes or Fletcher which I don't see happening. Sure, Hightower is an upgrade over both, but to me rich if we had to grab him in round 1 given what we have." agreed. however i think we definitely need to upgrade. im not happy really with any of our lbs. lifer and eng, what is yoru strategy? how bout a curry and brown startegy (assuming we could target where brown is going and get there).
    Posted by bredbru


    Strategy on our LB corps? This is a good question. I proposed very early in this thread to take a look at Zach Brown from UNC. Pats7393 brought him up recently and PatsEng commented on him being a poor man's version of Von Miller which may be true.

    MB most recently brought up potentially using Hightower as a 3-4 OLB. So, lots of discussion on the topic and depends in part what style defense BB runs, and how he values certain kids against said positions based on where he's drafting.

    My opinion is we are set inside. Mayo, Spikes and Fletcher are all good ILBs in either scheme. Mayo, Fletcher provide versatility to play outside in the 4-3, but not to date in our 3-4. Based on current personnel, 3-4 OLB's is where our weakness is at the moment.

    Hightower and Zach Brown should roughly come off the board around the same time based on what I've seen to date. If this holds true, it would again depend on what scheme BB wants to run. Hightower would prove the more versatile, Brown a small 4-3 OLB with speed and underrated power.

    So ask yourself, if we use Spikes in the middle, Mayo and Fletcher outside in a 4-3, is that enough? I don't see much in the way of depth here either.
    Meanwhile, you have Mayo/Spikes inside in the 3-4 with Fletcher providing depth, not much of anything on the outside unless you think highly of Anderson, Nink or Cunningham here.

    Personally, if I was rebuilding the LB corps, I would take Hightower over Brown (IF we go back to more 3-4), and then look later in the draft to pick up a speedy 4-3 OLB. I want to think Cunningham may turn into somehting. He and Hightower outside could get it done. That's puttinga lot of trust in Cunningham. IF we run more 4-3, then a guy like Brown would be valuable albeit a bit undersized for BB as he won't be able to really use him anywhere else other than possibly that safety that plays in the box. He might actually be pretty good in that role as he is decent in coverage too.

    Then comes the DL..., we have issues in the front 3. We don't really have any dominating 3-4 DL other than Vince. The rest in my mind are all depth. Deaderick, Brace mediocre. Love is a 4-3 DT, and I think he gets pushed around too much in the NT role even if you swing Vince outside.

    To me, we have a larger gap in player talent in the 3-4. Even if you take Hightower, the other OLB spot is vacant good talent. Then you have to also possibly add 1-2, 3-4 DEs. Seems tricky given this year is not deep in 3-4 DL talent. If we drafted Watt or someone like that last year, different discussion.

    So, long story short...I would look at some speedy 4-3 OLB's. Brown top of my list. He has done nothing but produce. Tackles, sacks, INTs, FFs, etc.
    Short list would look like this by round;
    1. Zach Brown (1st/early 2nd)
    2. Ronnell Lewis (2nd)
    3. Chase Thomas (3rd)
    4. Danny Trevathan (3rd/4th)
    5. Nico Johnson (3rd/4th)

    IF we wanted to use some early picks on defense, and draft a 3-4 OLB (Hightower) and a 3-4 DE, I would be good with that. But, we would need to do both or pick up a 3-4 DE in FA. I like Hightower as well, so I would pair him up with;
    1. Devon Still (1st)
    2. Wolfe (2nd)
    This is about as far down the board I would take a 3-4 DE if we go that route. I don't care for much anyone else. Winn is MB's guy and I like him okay, but Still and Wolfe I like better.

    I know this wont' be received well, but I would use my 1st 4 picks on defense to rebuild the front 7 and Safety position.

    My 1st 5 picks would look like this....I believe the 1st 4 would also provide some scheme versatility....
    1. Hightower (3-4 OLB/ILB)
    2. Mercilus (3-4 OLB/4-3 DE)
    3. Wolfe (3-4 DE/4-3 DT)
    4. Mark Barron (SS)
    5. TY Hilton (WR)
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** MOCK V1 ADDED

    Hey Lifer,

    I'd be very happy with those first 5 picks, however, Barron won't be there with the late 2nd pick.

    Late in the 2nd you are looking more at a Martin, Lester, or Guy Jr

    Hilton I really like as a WR and think he could be a steal in the 3rd. The only question I would have is if we get Lloyd do we need another undersized WR vs getting a 6'3"+ possession WR. If Lloyd is coming in I might rather go with Randle just for his size
     
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    Hey Lifer, I'd be very happy with those first 5 picks, however, Barron won't be there with the late 2nd pick. Late in the 2nd you are looking more at a Martin, Lester, or Guy Jr Hilton I really like as a WR and think he could be a steal in the 3rd. The only question I would have is if we get Lloyd do we need another undersized WR vs getting a 6'3"+ possession WR. If Lloyd is coming in I might rather go with Randle just for his size
    Posted by PatsEng


    def. gotta have the size.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** MOCK V1 ADDED

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    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** MOCK V1 ADDED : Strategy on our LB corps? This is a good question. I proposed very early in this thread to take a look at Zach Brown from UNC. Pats7393 brought him up recently and PatsEng commented on him being a poor man's version of Von Miller which may be true. MB most recently brought up potentially using Hightower as a 3-4 OLB. So, lots of discussion on the topic and depends in part what style defense BB runs, and how he values certain kids against said positions based on where he's drafting. My opinion is we are set inside. Mayo, Spikes and Fletcher are all good ILBs in either scheme. Mayo, Fletcher provide versatility to play outside in the 4-3, but not to date in our 3-4. Based on current personnel, 3-4 OLB's is where our weakness is at the moment. Hightower and Zach Brown should roughly come off the board around the same time based on what I've seen to date. If this holds true, it would again depend on what scheme BB wants to run. Hightower would prove the more versatile, Brown a small 4-3 OLB with speed and underrated power. So ask yourself, if we use Spikes in the middle, Mayo and Fletcher outside in a 4-3, is that enough? I don't see much in the way of depth here either. Meanwhile, you have Mayo/Spikes inside in the 3-4 with Fletcher providing depth, not much of anything on the outside unless you think highly of Anderson, Nink or Cunningham here. Personally, if I was rebuilding the LB corps, I would take Hightower over Brown (IF we go back to more 3-4), and then look later in the draft to pick up a speedy 4-3 OLB. I want to think Cunningham may turn into somehting. He and Hightower outside could get it done. That's puttinga lot of trust in Cunningham. IF we run more 4-3, then a guy like Brown would be valuable albeit a bit undersized for BB as he won't be able to really use him anywhere else other than possibly that safety that plays in the box. He might actually be pretty good in that role as he is decent in coverage too. Then comes the DL..., we have issues in the front 3. We don't really have any dominating 3-4 DL other than Vince. The rest in my mind are all depth. Deaderick, Brace mediocre. Love is a 4-3 DT, and I think he gets pushed around too much in the NT role even if you swing Vince outside. To me, we have a larger gap in player talent in the 3-4. Even if you take Hightower, the other OLB spot is vacant good talent. Then you have to also possibly add 1-2, 3-4 DEs. Seems tricky given this year is not deep in 3-4 DL talent. If we drafted Watt or someone like that last year, different discussion. So, long story short...I would look at some speedy 4-3 OLB's. Brown top of my list. He has done nothing but produce. Tackles, sacks, INTs, FFs, etc. Short list would look like this by round; 1. Zach Brown (1st/early 2nd) 2. Ronnell Lewis (2nd) 3. Chase Thomas (3rd) 4. Danny Trevathan (3rd/4th) 5. Nico Johnson (3rd/4th) IF we wanted to use some early picks on defense, and draft a 3-4 OLB (Hightower) and a 3-4 DE, I would be good with that. But, we would need to do both or pick up a 3-4 DE in FA. I like Hightower as well, so I would pair him up with; 1. Devon Still (1st) 2. Wolfe (2nd) This is about as far down the board I would take a 3-4 DE if we go that route. I don't care for much anyone else. Winn is MB's guy and I like him okay, but Still and Wolfe I like better. I know this wont' be received well, but I would use my 1st 4 picks on defense to rebuild the front 7 and Safety position. My 1st 5 picks would look like this....I believe the 1st 4 would also provide some scheme versatility.... 1. Hightower (3-4 OLB/ILB) 2. Mercilus (3-4 OLB/4-3 DE) 3. Wolfe (3-4 DE/4-3 DT) 4. Mark Barron (SS) 5. TY Hilton (WR)
    Posted by PatsLifer


    might have to trade up to get hightower. are you willing to do so? id trade a pick form next yr.
    barron will be gone in the first.

    need the big receiver
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** MOCK V1 ADDED

    Now with 2 players from my potential Pats list going back to college and McDaniels coming back, possible tempting Lloyd to join him it's time to amend my draft

    1a. Jenkins coming off the board hurts but doesn't completely affect my draft forecast. MB thinks he won't make it to NO's pick but I don't think NO's makes it past the next round so I'm sticking with Ingram as the pick with Mercilus/Curry being the second choice respectively

    1b. Traded to KC. With Crennel staying as coach it looks like a 34 will be sticking around but they need a NT to build off of. Poe would be a great fit for them if only they could get him. Mid 2nd is a bad spot with Was among other possible 34 teams ahead of them. Out of it we get KC's 3rd and their 1st next year

    2a. The rebuild of the D continues with Wolfe. His stock will be on the rise and a mid 2nd sounds about right

    2b. As much as I wanted Eifert he won't be available so I'm going with my next option at O being McNutt. You might have thought S here but that KC 3rd rounder bought some room to work with so I'm going with the steal of the 2nd round in McNutt

    3a. Now we get the S in Martin if he's not there a consolation prize is Brandon Taylor. S taken of, check

    3b. Devin Taylor. BB likes to go back to back recently so why not with Taylor and Taylor? And, the defensive rebuild in the front 7 is complete

    4 might as well grab a C too with Garner. Short of Konz might be one of the better pass blockers in the draft
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from moskk. Show moskk's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** MOCK V1 ADDED

    While it's easy to identify the Pat's weaknesses on OF as well as D the solutions are far from easy.  Do you pass on an All Pro because you already have adequate players at that position?  If a future all pro center is there when we're on the clock do you decide to wait until Round 3/4 to select a project because Scar can coach-him-up?

    The basis for a strong passing game is a good/great running game.  If a great center is there and together with Mankins, Cannon, Solder, Volmer, Gronkowski etc. could we create a dominant OL that can sustain a running game as well as give Brady a little breathing room (where he's shown to be deadly)? It's certainly important to be able to control the clock against a superior Offensive team (ala GB / NO).

    Conversely,  a great defensive front certainly improves our secondary etc. so one must not neglect the DL because we need help in the secondary.

      My point is that one must always be aware of superior talent and skill-set when prioritizing selections. I certainly favor drafting the best player available and relegate "the scheme" to secondary importance. A team can always change its scheme to reflect better utilization of player's strengths but a team cannot turn average performers into superstars!

    The onous of identifying great talent etc. I leave to the experts knowing full well that the Pats record has been spotty in this regard.  Could it be that we have been drafting only players that fit "our scheme" instead of probing for the best players available? BB has only scored when he successfully identified great talent/skill-set!

    Which would you select.... versatility or a one dimensional but dominant skill-set?  Is it better to take..... versatility but master of none... or dominance in one skill set?  Perhaps the best answer might depend on what is available and the need for dominance relative to other team positions.
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** MOCK V1 ADDED

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    While it's easy to identify the Pat's weaknesses on OF as well as D the solutions are far from easy.  Do you pass on an All Pro because you already have adequate players at that position?  If a future all pro center is there when we're on the clock do you decide to wait until Round 3/4 to select a project because Scar can coach-him-up? The basis for a strong passing game is a good/great running game.  If a great center is there and together with Mankins, Cannon, Solder, Volmer, Gronkowski etc. could we create a dominant OL that can sustain a running game as well as give Brady a little breathing room (where he's shown to be deadly)? It's certainly important to be able to control the clock against a superior Offensive team (ala GB / NO). Conversely,  a great defensive front certainly improves our secondary etc. so one must not neglect the DL because we need help in the secondary.   My point is that one must always be aware of superior talent and skill-set when prioritizing selections. I certainly favor drafting the best player available and relegate "the scheme" to secondary importance. A team can always change its scheme to reflect better utilization of player's strengths but a team cannot turn average performers into superstars! The onous of identifying great talent etc. I leave to the experts knowing full well that the Pats record has been spotty in this regard.  Could it be that we have been drafting only players that fit "our scheme" instead of probing for the best players available? BB has only scored when he successfully identified great talent/skill-set! Which would you select.... versatility or a one dimensional but dominant skill-set?  Is it better to take..... versatility but master of none... or dominance in one skill set?  Perhaps the best answer might depend on what is available and the need for dominance relative to other team positions.
    Posted by moskk
    re:" Perhaps the best answer might depend on what is available and the need for dominance relative to other team positions. "

    what is available, what positions are in need and how badly (ie do we need ot imporove each). i think we need a mix, but have not often enough gone for the "expertise" as you say.

    i want to fill as much as possible our needs in fa to allow us to go for the game changers within our reach (including reaching up)  in the draft.


    and i can make a point for going for konz as well.

    its just weve missed so much lately even with our "40 picks per draft" lately
    (sarcasm if anyone reading doesnt recognize it), that we have too many holes to fill.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from seattlepat70. Show seattlepat70's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** MOCK V1 ADDED

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    Hey Lifer, I'd be very happy with those first 5 picks, however, Barron won't be there with the late 2nd pick. Late in the 2nd you are looking more at a Martin, Lester, or Guy Jr Hilton I really like as a WR and think he could be a steal in the 3rd. The only question I would have is if we get Lloyd do we need another undersized WR vs getting a 6'3"+ possession WR. If Lloyd is coming in I might rather go with Randle just for his size
    Posted by PatsEng


    HILTON looks dynamic but it's dfficult for me to overlook that he fumbled twice in his bowl game. and i do not think it was isolated. early in that game i pointed out to my son, a habit he has similar to what someone on these boards pointed about one of the playmakers for philadelphia -- carrying the ball far from the body. hilton does that even in traffic. at this point in his career, i believe it is a habit that is hard to break... or will take years to break.

    i like randle




     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** MOCK V1 ADDED

    brd menioned that the team needs quicker/faster LBs. i agree. would love it if they get an ILB, but i don't think the ILBs (hightower, kuelchy and burfict) i like will be available, so i thought maybe look outside.

    since someone mentioned perry a few pages back, i went back and went through usc vs bc and vs nd. i really like what i saw. a de now, but i think he has the versatility to be a 3-down olb for teh pats. he's quick rushing and dropping back. pretty good instincts. of the olb prospects. what i really like about him is the range/area on the field that he is able to get to and impact (i don't know if there is a term for this). he gets involved in plays that are outside what i have seen the bigger names just give up on because it is a little "out of reach".

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** MOCK V1 ADDED

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    brd menioned that the team needs quicker/faster LBs. i agree. would love it if they get an ILB, but i don't think the ILBs (hightower, kuelchy and burfict) i like will be available, so i thought maybe look outside. since someone mentioned perry a few pages back, i went back and went through usc vs bc and vs nd. i really like what i saw. a de now, but i think he has the versatility to be a 3-down olb for teh pats. he's quick rushing and dropping back. pretty good instincts. of the olb prospects. what i really like about him is the range/area on the field that he is able to get to and impact (i don't know if there is a term for this). he gets involved in plays that are outside what i have seen the bigger names just give up on because it is a little "out of reach".
    Posted by seattlepat70



    thanks for the review seattle,
    yes we need better speed to the ball at lb and cover ability.
    as well as better setting of the edge i believe.

     ive seen experts play  him up bigtime and one or 2 not like him.
    here i think at least mb was saying hes down on usc guys and unc guys who he feels have a higher rep than they end up playing at.
    if you watched him 2 whole games you must have something on him. do yo uhave som ekind of subscription to coleg football to call any  game up?

    peace
    brd/bred
     
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    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** MOCK V1 ADDED:
    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** MOCK V1 ADDED :...do yo uhave som ekind of subscription to coleg football to call any  game up? peace brd/bred
    Posted by bredbru



    nope... but my 8 yr old is starting tog et upset that all the games i have on the dvr leaving not enough space for shows he wants to keep. i actually have more than 10 games (including about 6 bowl games) of backlog -- just there but i have not had the time to watch
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** MOCK V1 ADDED

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** MOCK V1 ADDED:
    While it's easy to identify the Pat's weaknesses on OF as well as D the solutions are far from easy.  Do you pass on an All Pro because you already have adequate players at that position?  If a future all pro center is there when we're on the clock do you decide to wait until Round 3/4 to select a project because Scar can coach-him-up? The basis for a strong passing game is a good/great running game.  If a great center is there and together with Mankins, Cannon, Solder, Volmer, Gronkowski etc. could we create a dominant OL that can sustain a running game as well as give Brady a little breathing room (where he's shown to be deadly)? It's certainly important to be able to control the clock against a superior Offensive team (ala GB / NO). Conversely,  a great defensive front certainly improves our secondary etc. so one must not neglect the DL because we need help in the secondary.   My point is that one must always be aware of superior talent and skill-set when prioritizing selections. I certainly favor drafting the best player available and relegate "the scheme" to secondary importance. A team can always change its scheme to reflect better utilization of player's strengths but a team cannot turn average performers into superstars! The onous of identifying great talent etc. I leave to the experts knowing full well that the Pats record has been spotty in this regard.  Could it be that we have been drafting only players that fit "our scheme" instead of probing for the best players available? BB has only scored when he successfully identified great talent/skill-set! Which would you select.... versatility or a one dimensional but dominant skill-set?  Is it better to take..... versatility but master of none... or dominance in one skill set?  Perhaps the best answer might depend on what is available and the need for dominance relative to other team positions.
    Posted by moskk


    moskk,

    While I think there is room for "specialists" (i.e. a pass rush specialist), on the average roster, BB clearly prefers to employ personnel that offer versatility, both schematic and positional as it helps to maximize productivity within a fixed roster limit.
     
    I too believe in the philosophy of BPA particularly in Rd 1 where you need the sure thing (middle/later rounds do provide some room for risk/upside, i.e. Mallet), however it's not without caveats.  I think BB evaluates multiple factors/variables and determines a value for each player based on this criteria (a few examples below):
     
    A.  What is the projected short/long term return for said player? 
    B.  Does current roster depth reduce a prospects value based on lack of need?
    C.  Does the BPA justify his draft slot (i.e. taking a Rd 2 talent in Rd 1 because he's the BPA)?
    D. How does said player fit our schematic/organizational/positional philosophies/preferences? 

    I think at the end of the day, you're looking for the best players that fit your scheme/philosophies and also the best available players to fill an area of need as someone like say, Texas A&M QB Ryan Tannehill could be the BPA when NE is on the clock, but it doesn't mean they'd take him.  I also don't think you pass on a kid because you already have assumed positional depth at a specific position, but BPA provides what you feel is a clear upgrade/difference maker (i.e. I wouldn't pass on Wisconsin C Peter Konz because Koppen/Connolly are already on the roster etc.).
     
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  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** MOCK V1 ADDED

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    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** MOCK V1 ADDED : moskk, While I think there is room for "specialists" (i.e. a pass rush specialist), on the average roster, BB clearly prefers to employ personnel that offer versatility, both schematic and positional as it helps to maximize productivity within a fixed roster limit.   I too believe in the philosophy of BPA particularly in Rd 1 where you need the sure thing (middle/later rounds do provide some room for risk/upside, i.e. Mallet), however it's not without caveats.  I think BB evaluates multiple factors/variables and determines a value for each player based on this criteria (a few examples below):   A.  What is the projected short/long term return for said player?  B.  Does current roster depth reduce a prospects value based on lack of need? C.  Does the BPA justify his draft slot (i.e. taking a Rd 2 talent in Rd 1 because he's the BPA)? D. How does said player fit our schematic/organizational/positional philosophies/preferences?  I think at the end of the day, you're looking for the best players that fit your scheme/philosophies and also the best available players to fill an area of need as someone like say, Texas A&M QB Ryan Tannehill could be the BPA when NE is on the clock, but it doesn't mean they'd take him.  I also don't think you pass on a kid because you already have assumed positional depth at a specific position, but BPA provides what you feel is a clear upgrade/difference maker (i.e. I wouldn't pass on Wisconsin C Peter Konz because Koppen/Connolly are already on the roster etc.).
    Posted by mbeaulieu07

    Although I partial agree you also have to take into account the actually upgrade for the team verses BPA. If the BPA is already in a position of strength but there is a player who isn't quite the BPA but present a higher overall upgrade for the team then the BPA you take them as the best move for the team.

    There is a lot of factors involved and you can't just say BPA, need, fit, or versatility/specialty but need to be a combination of the above.

     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** MOCK V1 ADDED

    "we are building a team... not collecting talent."

    where nwe usually picks, bpa is not often applicable. unless that bpa also happens to be the missing piece to winning it all, there is always a dilemma and i cannot blame a team for going for the missing piece. of course by being so focused on that one piece, there is also a chance that you end up reaching for a kid.

    bpa applies to the top 15 where the ranking of players are clear and because the teams usually picking are so bad that any elite player picked would help the team achieve tremendous progress. on years where the draft class is deep you might be talking about the top 22 or perhaps the entire first round. seriously though when was the last time when there was clear concensus on who the 20th best player is?

    that said, other than qb, there really is no position in the nwe depth chart that i can think of that could not use an upgrade/ additional help. (i am not sure if i am saying it right but i think you know what i mean)

     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** MOCK V1 ADDED

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** MOCK V1 ADDED:
    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** MOCK V1 ADDED : Although I partial agree you also have to take into account the actually upgrade for the team verses BPA. If the BPA is already in a position of strength but there is a player who isn't quite the BPA but present a higher overall upgrade for the team then the BPA you take them as the best move for the team. There is a lot of factors involved and you can't just say BPA, need, fit, or versatility/specialty but need to be a combination of the above.
    Posted by PatsEng


    I think we're saying the same thing, which is the philosphy of BPA isn't cut and dry.
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** MOCK V1 ADDED

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** MOCK V1 ADDED:
    "we are building a team... not collecting talent." where nwe usually picks, bpa is not often applicable. unless that bpa also happens to be the missing piece to winning it all, there is always a dilemma and i cannot blame a team for going for the missing piece. of course by being so focused on that one piece, there is also a chance that you end up reaching for a kid. bpa applies to the top 15 where the ranking of players are clear and because the teams usually picking are so bad that any elite player picked would help the team achieve tremendous progress. on years where the draft class is deep you might be talking about the top 22 or perhaps the entire first round. seriously though when was the last time when there was clear concensus on who the 20th best player is? that said, other than qb, there really is no position in the nwe depth chart that i can think of that could not use an upgrade/ additional help. (i am not sure if i am saying it right but i think you know what i mean)
    Posted by seattlepat70


    The definition/interpretation of BPA can be debated, however I think it applies to the entire draft (Rd's 1-7) as I assume all teams "stack their board", so in essence, BPA would be the highest rated player on your board (taking into account the other variables that have been discussed).
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** MOCK V1 ADDED

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** MOCK V1 ADDED:
    Konz should be the 1st pick this year, simple. Kid is real deal. Edit: If he makes it that far down, after Combine I think he shoots up, some spots.
    Posted by bobbysu


    Do you think we need help along the O-line?  I'm not too sure.  We have studs in Solder, Mankins, and Waters.  Cannon looks to be a great addition as well.  Plus, BB seems to be excellent at finding OL in later rounds.  
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** MOCK V1 ADDED

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** MOCK V1 ADDED:
    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** MOCK V1 ADDED : Do you think we need help along the O-line?  I'm not too sure.  We have studs in Solder, Mankins, and Waters.  Cannon looks to be a great addition as well.  Plus, BB seems to be excellent at finding OL in later rounds.  
    Posted by Army2LT


    Koppen in Rd 5 was an excellent find, yes.  I also agree that it's possible they they go that route again, however I wouldn't dismiss the possibility of him targeting a true stud OC in Rd 1, given the chance to land one.  Konz, IMO is one of the few "sure things" (Barron and Hightower being the other two) with the potential to be available when NE is on the clock, or at the very least within trading range.
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** MOCK V1 ADDED

    A few minutes ago I flashed on the Falcons/Giants game and, in particular, the Falcons decision to try a quarterback sneak for <1 yard for a 1st down (due to wind conditions and a shaky field goal prospect).  The Giants held.  One only wonders what could have happened if it were the Patriots in a similar situation and we had "road-graders" in the middle of our line.  Thus the question of Peter Konz as a #1.  What I don't know is whether he is the real deal but Scar could step up as he did when the Patiots wisely drafted Solder.

    My argument is not whether we should try to fill needs with average skill players but whether (AS A BASIC PHILOSOPHY) we should strive for high draft picks merely to trade out for quantity of picks.  I understand that one trades down when there is a perceived lack of quality and the Pats don't want to overpay.  That can happen but the culture here suggests that it's part of our drafting philosophy to do it every year.  Hindsight has shown that we need to get better at evaluating talent and not dismiss great players simply because they don't fit our scheme or hinder us from multiplying draft picks.

    Let's be clear on one point too.  What the Pats do in a given year may be the best option.  Prospective all-pro talent is not always available and trading down has value until we look retrospectively and see multiple misses on talent that was available when we passed.

    Let's back up and answer why we have a given "scheme".  Supposedly we chose a scheme that gives our team the best chances to win with the players on hand.  That tells me that as our players change and their skill-set changes, so too must our scheme change.  In other words, schemes are more flexible than player quality.
     
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    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** MOCK V1 ADDED

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** MOCK V1 ADDED:
    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** MOCK V1 ADDED : Koppen in Rd 1 was an excellent find, yes.  I also agree that it's possible they they go that route again, however I wouldn't dismiss the possibility of him targeting a true stud OC in Rd 1, given the chance to land one.  Konz, IMO is one of the few "sure things" (Barron and Hightower being the other two) with the potential to be available when NE is on the clock, or at the very least within trading range.
    Posted by mbeaulieu07


    Good post, MB.  Totally agree.  I've always thought that teams should try to find players who are close to "sure things" with their 1st rounders.  Missing with 1st round picks can be pretty devastating, ie Maroney...  I'm with you that Konz, Hightower, and Barron would all fall into this catagory and are all in play for the Pats on draft day. After 1st round, I have no problem on gambling a bit on raw kids or character concerns with upside.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from seattlepat70. Show seattlepat70's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** MOCK V1 ADDED

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** MOCK V1 ADDED:
    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** MOCK V1 ADDED : The definition/interpretation of BPA can be debated, however I think it applies to the entire draft (Rd's 1-7) as I assume all teams "stack their board", so in essence, BPA would be the highest rated player on your board (taking into account the other variables that have been discussed).
    Posted by mbeaulieu07


    sure...every team has a stack rank of players. what is at question is how well the ranking actually reflects the capability/potential of candidates, i think, even as early as the 20th pick in the first round. i may be wrong and the ranking may be clear up to 2 rounds.

    if you believe in statistics, and the bell curve, however, beyond the most talented 3%, there will be a set of players who will have about the same level of capability/potential/value. a linear stack rank through all 6 rounds goes against that.



     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** MOCK V1 ADDED

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** MOCK V1 ADDED:
    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** MOCK V1 ADDED : nope... but my 8 yr old is starting tog et upset that all the games i have on the dvr leaving not enough space for shows he wants to keep. i actually have more than 10 games (including about 6 bowl games) of backlog -- just there but i have not had the time to watch
    Posted by seattlepat70



    :)  laughing....

    be careful, soon the 8 year old may decide/figure out how to delete :)
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** MOCK V1 ADDED

    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** MOCK V1 ADDED:
    In Response to Re: ***2012 Patriots Draft Thread*** MOCK V1 ADDED : moskk, While I think there is room for "specialists" (i.e. a pass rush specialist), on the average roster, BB clearly prefers to employ personnel that offer versatility, both schematic and positional as it helps to maximize productivity within a fixed roster limit.   I too believe in the philosophy of BPA particularly in Rd 1 where you need the sure thing (middle/later rounds do provide some room for risk/upside, i.e. Mallet), however it's not without caveats.  I think BB evaluates multiple factors/variables and determines a value for each player based on this criteria (a few examples below):   A.  What is the projected short/long term return for said player?  B.  Does current roster depth reduce a prospects value based on lack of need? C.  Does the BPA justify his draft slot (i.e. taking a Rd 2 talent in Rd 1 because he's the BPA)? D. How does said player fit our schematic/organizational/positional philosophies/preferences?  I think at the end of the day, you're looking for the best players that fit your scheme/philosophies and also the best available players to fill an area of need as someone like say, Texas A&M QB Ryan Tannehill could be the BPA when NE is on the clock, but it doesn't mean they'd take him.  I also don't think you pass on a kid because you already have assumed positional depth at a specific position, but BPA provides what you feel is a clear upgrade/difference maker (i.e. I wouldn't pass on Wisconsin C Peter Konz because Koppen/Connolly are already on the roster etc.).
    Posted by mbeaulieu07

    "  think at the end of the day, you're looking for the best players that fit yourscheme/philosophies and also the best available players to fill an area of need as someone like say, "

    what i was thinking, but much better said.
    been quite exxhausted by time i get to this board lately.


     
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