***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

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  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Homecheese. Show Homecheese's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    posted at 10/15/2012 10:56 AM EDT

    In response to mbeaulieu07's comment:

    In response to Homecheese's comment:

    Whew!! I thought this thread got deleted. I finally found it on page 4.

    I've been checking out some mock drafts and some have Mingo and Montgomery going top 10. They're both good but top 10? I don't see it. Obviously its early and all but I would have no problem if 2 teams took them in the top 10 as long as the Pats aren't one of them haha



    Ha, should prob find a permanent home on page 1 as the season progresses... but it likely gave way to the dozens of redundant whine threads about a Patriots loss.

    That's the premium teams pay for edge rush ability, both are good sized athletic kids that can really get after the QB... I"ve seen Mingo in particular rated as the top player on a couple boards.

     




    Haha I didn't want to say anything but thats what I figured happened. After a Pats loss and good threads go entirely missing

    Right now I like Werner and Clowney more then Mingo and Montgomery. Whether Clowney declares or not, not sure. I think Jordan even has more potential then M and M. He's so quick off the snap, he's practically in the backfield before the ball reaches the qb.

    I dvr'ed the lsu/SC game and was gonna watch it again at some point and focus more on them but I think they benefit alot from each other and all the good players they have on D. Which btw, I think Reid looks good

     

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    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    posted at 10/15/2012 11:37 AM EDT

    In response to Homecheese's comment:

    In response to mbeaulieu07's comment:

    In response to Homecheese's comment:

    Whew!! I thought this thread got deleted. I finally found it on page 4.

    I've been checking out some mock drafts and some have Mingo and Montgomery going top 10. They're both good but top 10? I don't see it. Obviously its early and all but I would have no problem if 2 teams took them in the top 10 as long as the Pats aren't one of them haha



    Ha, should prob find a permanent home on page 1 as the season progresses... but it likely gave way to the dozens of redundant whine threads about a Patriots loss.

    That's the premium teams pay for edge rush ability, both are good sized athletic kids that can really get after the QB... I"ve seen Mingo in particular rated as the top player on a couple boards.

     




    Haha I didn't want to say anything but thats what I figured happened. After a Pats loss and good threads go entirely missing

    Right now I like Werner and Clowney more then Mingo and Montgomery. Whether Clowney declares or not, not sure. I think Jordan even has more potential then M and M. He's so quick off the snap, he's practically in the backfield before the ball reaches the qb.

    I dvr'ed the lsu/SC game and was gonna watch it again at some point and focus more on them but I think they benefit alot from each other and all the good players they have on D. Which btw, I think Reid looks good



    I'm with you on Werner/Jordan, Werner is prob my favorite player in this class (assuming he declares) to this point and would be an ideal bookend to Jones... Clowney is a flat out stud too, but I believe he's only a true Soph, so won't be draft eligible until next season.

    I watched some Reid tape last week and def see some positives and negatives... overall, he looks like a very, very good football player and SHOULD come off the board in Rd 1 if he declares.

    On the positive side, he's a big kid, physical, versatile and can play all over the field (should excel in covrage vs. TE's) moves about as easy as any S that I've seen, is instinctive, experienced and should be a Day 1 starter for the team that takes him.

    On the negative side, he can take some bad angles, will miss tackles due to playing a bit too fast vs. breaking down, seems to play flat footed a lot when playing centerfield/covering the deep half... almost has a shuffle type movement to his feet vs. a clean backpedal... not sure if this is their preferred techique etc, want to check out more film to see if it's consistent... but I do get the feeling that he can sometimes rely too much on his natural ability.

     

  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    posted at 10/15/2012 11:45 AM EDT

    Top 10 might be high for them right now, we'll have a better clue where they will end up after thanksgiving but I could easily see them both going top 20 which hopefully will put them out of our range.

    The only thing I'm begging for right now is for BB not to take a DB in the first two rounds. This might sound weird but it's a two fold issue I have:

    First - I don't think we have the proper coaching staff. When the coaching staff can't teach something as simply as to turn around for the ball and not rely on face gaurding then there is an issue. When every player regresses from year 1 to years 2,3,4 then we have an issue (see McCourty, Ras starter for 2 games last year then dropped off face of earth, Moore significant drop off, Butler)

    Second - He just seems to be extremely bad at picking DB's in the first 2 rounds. McCourty needs work but has starting ability and Chung has suddenly turned into a mediocre S at best. Ras I have no clue where he went and Wilson looked lost when asked to play every down. This is getting sad

    Third - BB has rarely failed when getting front 7 players in the first 2 rounds. Cunningham is a JAGish pass rushing specialist and Brace is no where to be seen but almost all his front 7 picks have turned out great, even Hill was showing high improve before the tragedy

     

  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from mbeaulieu07. Show mbeaulieu07's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    posted at 10/15/2012 12:38 PM EDT

    In response to PatsEng's comment:

    Top 10 might be high for them right now, we'll have a better clue where they will end up after thanksgiving but I could easily see them both going top 20 which hopefully will put them out of our range.

    The only thing I'm begging for right now is for BB not to take a DB in the first two rounds. This might sound weird but it's a two fold issue I have:

    First - I don't think we have the proper coaching staff. When the coaching staff can't teach something as simply as to turn around for the ball and not rely on face gaurding then there is an issue. When every player regresses from year 1 to years 2,3,4 then we have an issue (see McCourty, Ras starter for 2 games last year then dropped off face of earth, Moore significant drop off, Butler)

    Second - He just seems to be extremely bad at picking DB's in the first 2 rounds. McCourty needs work but has starting ability and Chung has suddenly turned into a mediocre S at best. Ras I have no clue where he went and Wilson looked lost when asked to play every down. This is getting sad

    Third - BB has rarely failed when getting front 7 players in the first 2 rounds. Cunningham is a JAGish pass rushing specialist and Brace is no where to be seen but almost all his front 7 picks have turned out great, even Hill was showing high improve before the tragedy




    Would be tough for me to disagree, they simply seem to have a flawed process when it comes to identifying, drafting and developing DB talent.

    What I can say is a kid like Milliner has demonstrated the ability to turn his head, play the football in college, so one would think that he'd stop doing it in the pro's, but...

     

  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    posted at 10/15/2012 1:14 PM EDT

    In response to mbeaulieu07's comment:

    In response to PatsEng's comment:

    Top 10 might be high for them right now, we'll have a better clue where they will end up after thanksgiving but I could easily see them both going top 20 which hopefully will put them out of our range.

    The only thing I'm begging for right now is for BB not to take a DB in the first two rounds. This might sound weird but it's a two fold issue I have:

    First - I don't think we have the proper coaching staff. When the coaching staff can't teach something as simply as to turn around for the ball and not rely on face gaurding then there is an issue. When every player regresses from year 1 to years 2,3,4 then we have an issue (see McCourty, Ras starter for 2 games last year then dropped off face of earth, Moore significant drop off, Butler)

    Second - He just seems to be extremely bad at picking DB's in the first 2 rounds. McCourty needs work but has starting ability and Chung has suddenly turned into a mediocre S at best. Ras I have no clue where he went and Wilson looked lost when asked to play every down. This is getting sad

    Third - BB has rarely failed when getting front 7 players in the first 2 rounds. Cunningham is a JAGish pass rushing specialist and Brace is no where to be seen but almost all his front 7 picks have turned out great, even Hill was showing high improve before the tragedy




    Would be tough for me to disagree, they simply seem to have a flawed process when it comes to identifying, drafting and developing DB talent.

    What I can say is a kid like Milliner has demonstrated the ability to turn his head, play the football in college, so one would think that he'd stop doing it in the pro's, but...




    and here comes the but... McCourty also turned his head in college and turned his head his rook year. Something happened between his rook year and today that made him stop turning his head and it's happened to a lot of our DB's

     

  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Homecheese. Show Homecheese's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    posted at 10/15/2012 1:36 PM EDT

    In response to mbeaulieu07's comment:

    In response to Homecheese's comment:

    In response to mbeaulieu07's comment:

    In response to Homecheese's comment:

    Whew!! I thought this thread got deleted. I finally found it on page 4.

    I've been checking out some mock drafts and some have Mingo and Montgomery going top 10. They're both good but top 10? I don't see it. Obviously its early and all but I would have no problem if 2 teams took them in the top 10 as long as the Pats aren't one of them haha



    Ha, should prob find a permanent home on page 1 as the season progresses... but it likely gave way to the dozens of redundant whine threads about a Patriots loss.

    That's the premium teams pay for edge rush ability, both are good sized athletic kids that can really get after the QB... I"ve seen Mingo in particular rated as the top player on a couple boards.

     




    Haha I didn't want to say anything but thats what I figured happened. After a Pats loss and good threads go entirely missing

    Right now I like Werner and Clowney more then Mingo and Montgomery. Whether Clowney declares or not, not sure. I think Jordan even has more potential then M and M. He's so quick off the snap, he's practically in the backfield before the ball reaches the qb.

    I dvr'ed the lsu/SC game and was gonna watch it again at some point and focus more on them but I think they benefit alot from each other and all the good players they have on D. Which btw, I think Reid looks good



    I'm with you on Werner/Jordan, Werner is prob my favorite player in this class (assuming he declares) to this point and would be an ideal bookend to Jones... Clowney is a flat out stud too, but I believe he's only a true Soph, so won't be draft eligible until next season.

    I watched some Reid tape last week and def see some positives and negatives... overall, he looks like a very, very good football player and SHOULD come off the board in Rd 1 if he declares.

    On the positive side, he's a big kid, physical, versatile and can play all over the field (should excel in covrage vs. TE's) moves about as easy as any S that I've seen, is instinctive, experienced and should be a Day 1 starter for the team that takes him.

    On the negative side, he can take some bad angles, will miss tackles due to playing a bit too fast vs. breaking down, seems to play flat footed a lot when playing centerfield/covering the deep half... almost has a shuffle type movement to his feet vs. a clean backpedal... not sure if this is their preferred techique etc, want to check out more film to see if it's consistent... but I do get the feeling that he can sometimes rely too much on his natural ability.




    I didn't think of that about Clowney's eligibility. Its crazy how good he's going to be!

    Good info on Reid! Question, who would you take between him and Elam on Florida? Also who do you like the most so far at safety in this class?

     

  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Homecheese. Show Homecheese's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    posted at 10/15/2012 1:44 PM EDT

    In response to PatsEng's comment:

    In response to mbeaulieu07's comment:

    In response to PatsEng's comment:

    Top 10 might be high for them right now, we'll have a better clue where they will end up after thanksgiving but I could easily see them both going top 20 which hopefully will put them out of our range.

    The only thing I'm begging for right now is for BB not to take a DB in the first two rounds. This might sound weird but it's a two fold issue I have:

    First - I don't think we have the proper coaching staff. When the coaching staff can't teach something as simply as to turn around for the ball and not rely on face gaurding then there is an issue. When every player regresses from year 1 to years 2,3,4 then we have an issue (see McCourty, Ras starter for 2 games last year then dropped off face of earth, Moore significant drop off, Butler)

    Second - He just seems to be extremely bad at picking DB's in the first 2 rounds. McCourty needs work but has starting ability and Chung has suddenly turned into a mediocre S at best. Ras I have no clue where he went and Wilson looked lost when asked to play every down. This is getting sad

    Third - BB has rarely failed when getting front 7 players in the first 2 rounds. Cunningham is a JAGish pass rushing specialist and Brace is no where to be seen but almost all his front 7 picks have turned out great, even Hill was showing high improve before the tragedy




    Would be tough for me to disagree, they simply seem to have a flawed process when it comes to identifying, drafting and developing DB talent.

    What I can say is a kid like Milliner has demonstrated the ability to turn his head, play the football in college, so one would think that he'd stop doing it in the pro's, but...




    and here comes the but... McCourty also turned his head in college and turned his head his rook year. Something happened between his rook year and today that made him stop turning his head and it's happened to a lot of our DB's




    I don't get it. Even Butler had a promising rookie year and then fell apart in year 2. I think we had Dom Capers in 2008, who I thought did a ok-decent job. I think Corwin Brown followed and didn't do well at all and now Boyer picked up where Brown left off. I'm beginning to think the coaching staff is telling them not to turn their head. I thought Dowling was our best corner to start the season and now he's gone completely missing.

    I'd love a guy like Milliner here but I'm afraid the same will happen with him.

     

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    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    posted at 10/15/2012 4:11 PM EDT

    @HC,

    It's a good question... I'll start by saying, for all the talk last year about Barron and how he was overrated due to the lack of overall depth in the 2012 S draft class, I'd still take him over any safety in this class as well.

    I look forward to watching more 2012 tape on Reid, as the more I watch of his 2011 tape, the more he looks like more of an athlete with hitting ability than a pure football player... the natural talent and movement ability is undeniable, but I'm seeing too many missed tackles and bad angles. 

    When I watch Elam on tape, I'd compare him (from a size/speed/physicality/aggression standpoint) favorably to Patrick Chung, though I think he's a much better cover guy.  He's used a lot as a nickel/slot cover guy (an area where Chung struggles), moves well in the short area... has solid awareness and will make a play on the football.  He's also a very good run defender, very physical... and while he can miss some tackles, he's often breaks down and is in good position to make a play.  His value to the Gators is clear as he's moved around quite a bit, blitzes often off the edge (not that NE would do any of that), plays with good technique and looks assignment sound and always seems to be around the football... he looks to be more of a finished product than Reid.

    Given my choice on 10/15/12, I'd take Elam over Reid.

    I do look forward to watching more S tape on this class though, which includes McDonald, Lester, Jefferson and Vaccaro, etc.

     

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    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    posted at 10/15/2012 8:22 PM EDT

    In response to mbeaulieu07's comment:

    @HC,

    It's a good question... I'll start by saying, for all the talk last year about Barron and how he was overrated due to the lack of overall depth in the 2012 S draft class, I'd still take him over any safety in this class as well.

    I look forward to watching more 2012 tape on Reid, as the more I watch of his 2011 tape, the more he looks like more of an athlete with hitting ability than a pure football player... the natural talent and movement ability is undeniable, but I'm seeing too many missed tackles and bad angles. 

    When I watch Elam on tape, I'd compare him (from a size/speed/physicality/aggression standpoint) favorably to Patrick Chung, though I think he's a much better cover guy.  He's used a lot as a nickel/slot cover guy (an area where Chung struggles), moves well in the short area... has solid awareness and will make a play on the football.  He's also a very good run defender, very physical... and while he can miss some tackles, he's often breaks down and is in good position to make a play.  His value to the Gators is clear as he's moved around quite a bit, blitzes often off the edge (not that NE would do any of that), plays with good technique and looks assignment sound and always seems to be around the football... he looks to be more of a finished product than Reid.

    Given my choice on 10/15/12, I'd take Elam over Reid.

    I do look forward to watching more S tape on this class though, which includes McDonald, Lester, Jefferson and Vaccaro, etc.



    Good stuff! Thanks for the input! I like Elam alot and he looks fast and can deliver a good hit. I'm hoping to see more of him against South Carolina this weekend.

    I agree with you about Barron and I'd even throw Harrison Smith in there as well. This years class seems to have a lot of solid safety's but I don't think I could pick one that is better than Barron and Smith just yet. Still lots of football to play though.

     

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    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    posted at 10/15/2012 8:42 PM EDT

    In response to Homecheese's comment:

    In response to mbeaulieu07's comment:

    @HC,

    It's a good question... I'll start by saying, for all the talk last year about Barron and how he was overrated due to the lack of overall depth in the 2012 S draft class, I'd still take him over any safety in this class as well.

    I look forward to watching more 2012 tape on Reid, as the more I watch of his 2011 tape, the more he looks like more of an athlete with hitting ability than a pure football player... the natural talent and movement ability is undeniable, but I'm seeing too many missed tackles and bad angles. 

    When I watch Elam on tape, I'd compare him (from a size/speed/physicality/aggression standpoint) favorably to Patrick Chung, though I think he's a much better cover guy.  He's used a lot as a nickel/slot cover guy (an area where Chung struggles), moves well in the short area... has solid awareness and will make a play on the football.  He's also a very good run defender, very physical... and while he can miss some tackles, he's often breaks down and is in good position to make a play.  His value to the Gators is clear as he's moved around quite a bit, blitzes often off the edge (not that NE would do any of that), plays with good technique and looks assignment sound and always seems to be around the football... he looks to be more of a finished product than Reid.

    Given my choice on 10/15/12, I'd take Elam over Reid.

    I do look forward to watching more S tape on this class though, which includes McDonald, Lester, Jefferson and Vaccaro, etc.



    Good stuff! Thanks for the input! I like Elam alot and he looks fast and can deliver a good hit. I'm hoping to see more of him against South Carolina this weekend.

    I agree with you about Barron and I'd even throw Harrison Smith in there as well. This years class seems to have a lot of solid safety's but I don't think I could pick one that is better than Barron and Smith just yet. Still lots of football to play though.



    No prob man, just trying to go on what I see (the only tape available)... and the more I research Safeties, the more I see players going for the knock out blow vs. wrapping up... it's become kind of the football culture... we all love a huge hit, but I'd prefer the player go down on the spot vs. a huge shoulder that the runner bounces off of and picks up another 10-15, ha.

    Reid is the higher rated kid right now (His size is prob a huge plus for scouts evaluators; has 4 inches on Elam), I just prefer Elam's play more right now.  This may seem weird, but Elam hasn't worn gloves or wrist bands (or some I remember) in the games that I've seen this year, instead having just tape on his fingers (similar to former LSU and current Steeler S, Ryan Clark and former ND/Raider WR Tim Brown) and there is some sort of blue collar/old school type appeal in that for me... since most every player wears gloves and 27 wrist bands these days.

    If you liked Harrison, take a look at ND Zeke Motta... he's almost a pysical clone of Harrison, but not quite the level of player... he'll prob come off the board late on day 2 or day 3... he's really improved this year and could be the most physical S in this class... a real tone setter in the secondary.

     

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    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    posted at 10/15/2012 9:38 PM EDT

    In response to mbeaulieu07's comment:

    In response to Homecheese's comment:

    In response to mbeaulieu07's comment:

    @HC,

    It's a good question... I'll start by saying, for all the talk last year about Barron and how he was overrated due to the lack of overall depth in the 2012 S draft class, I'd still take him over any safety in this class as well.

    I look forward to watching more 2012 tape on Reid, as the more I watch of his 2011 tape, the more he looks like more of an athlete with hitting ability than a pure football player... the natural talent and movement ability is undeniable, but I'm seeing too many missed tackles and bad angles. 

    When I watch Elam on tape, I'd compare him (from a size/speed/physicality/aggression standpoint) favorably to Patrick Chung, though I think he's a much better cover guy.  He's used a lot as a nickel/slot cover guy (an area where Chung struggles), moves well in the short area... has solid awareness and will make a play on the football.  He's also a very good run defender, very physical... and while he can miss some tackles, he's often breaks down and is in good position to make a play.  His value to the Gators is clear as he's moved around quite a bit, blitzes often off the edge (not that NE would do any of that), plays with good technique and looks assignment sound and always seems to be around the football... he looks to be more of a finished product than Reid.

    Given my choice on 10/15/12, I'd take Elam over Reid.

    I do look forward to watching more S tape on this class though, which includes McDonald, Lester, Jefferson and Vaccaro, etc.



    Good stuff! Thanks for the input! I like Elam alot and he looks fast and can deliver a good hit. I'm hoping to see more of him against South Carolina this weekend.

    I agree with you about Barron and I'd even throw Harrison Smith in there as well. This years class seems to have a lot of solid safety's but I don't think I could pick one that is better than Barron and Smith just yet. Still lots of football to play though.



    No prob man, just trying to go on what I see (the only tape available)... and the more I research Safeties, the more I see players going for the knock out blow vs. wrapping up... it's become kind of the football culture... we all love a huge hit, but I'd prefer the player go down on the spot vs. a huge shoulder that the runner bounces off of and picks up another 10-15, ha.

    Reid is the higher rated kid right now (His size is prob a huge plus for scouts evaluators; has 4 inches on Elam), I just prefer Elam's play more right now.  This may seem weird, but Elam hasn't worn gloves or wrist bands (or some I remember) in the games that I've seen this year, instead having just tape on his fingers (similar to former LSU and current Steeler S, Ryan Clark and former ND/Raider WR Tim Brown) and there is some sort of blue collar/old school type appeal in that for me... since most every player wears gloves and 27 wrist bands these days.

    If you liked Harrison, take a look at ND Zeke Motta... he's almost a pysical clone of Harrison, but not quite the level of player... he'll prob come off the board late on day 2 or day 3... he's really improved this year and could be the most physical S in this class... a real tone setter in the secondary.




    True,  so many guys look for the big hit over wrapping up. I think Rodney Harrison excelled at that, knowing when to wrap and when to deliver a blow. Meriweather was the opposite always looking for the big hit.

    Its funny you mentioned because of all the times I've seen Ryan Clark, I think thursday night was the first time I noticed his hands were taped and he didn't wear gloves. I know what you're saying on little things like that that impress

    I've seen some of Zeke Motta and he is impressive! Its a good comparison to Smith. There are so many guys on the ND defense to watch this year but he's a guy I want to keep watching and see more of this year

     

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    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    posted at 10/15/2012 11:22 PM EDT

    In response to PatsEng's comment:

    Top 10 might be high for them right now, we'll have a better clue where they will end up after thanksgiving but I could easily see them both going top 20 which hopefully will put them out of our range.

    The only thing I'm begging for right now is for BB not to take a DB in the first two rounds. This might sound weird but it's a two fold issue I have:

    First - I don't think we have the proper coaching staff. When the coaching staff can't teach something as simply as to turn around for the ball and not rely on face gaurding then there is an issue. When every player regresses from year 1 to years 2,3,4 then we have an issue (see McCourty, Ras starter for 2 games last year then dropped off face of earth, Moore significant drop off, Butler)

    Second - He just seems to be extremely bad at picking DB's in the first 2 rounds. McCourty needs work but has starting ability and Chung has suddenly turned into a mediocre S at best. Ras I have no clue where he went and Wilson looked lost when asked to play every down. This is getting sad

    Third - BB has rarely failed when getting front 7 players in the first 2 rounds. Cunningham is a JAGish pass rushing specialist and Brace is no where to be seen but almost all his front 7 picks have turned out great, even Hill was showing high improve before the tragedy



    I completely agree with #1... you had stats background. what are the odds that every db taken over the last five years would turn out to be busts. statistically, that is hard to achieve. the consistency of failure tells me there's intervention after the DBs join the team, that is leading to the negative result.

     

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    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    posted at 10/16/2012 1:40 AM EDT

    In response to PatsEng's comment:

    Top 10 might be high for them right now, we'll have a better clue where they will end up after thanksgiving but I could easily see them both going top 20 which hopefully will put them out of our range.

    The only thing I'm begging for right now is for BB not to take a DB in the first two rounds. This might sound weird but it's a two fold issue I have:

    First - I don't think we have the proper coaching staff. When the coaching staff can't teach something as simply as to turn around for the ball and not rely on face gaurding then there is an issue. When every player regresses from year 1 to years 2,3,4 then we have an issue (see McCourty, Ras starter for 2 games last year then dropped off face of earth, Moore significant drop off, Butler)

    Second - He just seems to be extremely bad at picking DB's in the first 2 rounds. McCourty needs work but has starting ability and Chung has suddenly turned into a mediocre S at best. Ras I have no clue where he went and Wilson looked lost when asked to play every down. This is getting sad

    Third - BB has rarely failed when getting front 7 players in the first 2 rounds. Cunningham is a JAGish pass rushing specialist and Brace is no where to be seen but almost all his front 7 picks have turned out great, even Hill was showing high improve before the tragedy



    nice points. i only ask why have you not backed me up for 2 years for saying the same with all  kinds of noise responses/attack on teh board. which led me to say the same suggestion you make above last year (till very late in teh process wehn i wanted jenkins and finnegan)

     

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    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    posted at 10/16/2012 8:15 AM EDT

    Like everyone here I have been very frustrated with the play of our DB's.  I think the problem of not turning around is that they are constantly getting beat and trying to catch up to the receivers.  Chung is a free agent and I don't think they are going to re-sign him.  He's to unreliable in coverage and often injured.  So that really leaves Gregory, Wilson, and Ebner out there.  I don't know maybe they move McCourty or Dowling to safety. 

    All that being said I think Safety is one of the biggest if not the biggest need in the draft.  The guy I have been impressed with is Kenny Vaccarro out of Texas.  Seems like a heady player with good speed and size combo.  Looks pretty good in covering both the run and pass.  I've seen him do well covering the slot receiver to.  For corner I of course like Milliner but Xavier Rhodes might be another to keep an eye on.  Big physical corner who looks like he can play man to man and jam the receivers. 

    Wilson is going to go through some bumps this season.  He's a rookie so I'm going to hold off on judgement but we all know the track record of drafting DB's.  Maybe a linebacker that is fast and solid in coverage might be another need.  They have 3 big run stopping linebackers that have good instincts but may not be able to keep up with faster tight ends and backs. 

     

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    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    posted at 10/16/2012 9:38 AM EDT

    PatsNut - I agree over the top coverage is one of our biggest weaknesses. When our CB's play 10 yards off and and still have WR's behind them then clearly the S's aren't providing the right coverage. I do think that with the right S's then McCourty will drasticully improve and I think Dennard has great potential. Now Ras might be that player. One theory I have been thinking about is the reason we haven't seen a lot of Ras is because they are in the middle of converting him to S and don't want to kill and progress he's made in the conversion by having him have regular reps as a CB. Either way though if the CB's are playing catch up they still need to make an effort to turn around for the ball. Almost all the PI have come because they never turn and not because they actually interfer with the receiver. If they just turned 80% of those PI's actually wouldn't be PI's

     

  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    posted at 10/16/2012 9:50 AM EDT

    In response to bredbru's comment:

    In response to PatsEng's comment:

    Top 10 might be high for them right now, we'll have a better clue where they will end up after thanksgiving but I could easily see them both going top 20 which hopefully will put them out of our range.

    The only thing I'm begging for right now is for BB not to take a DB in the first two rounds. This might sound weird but it's a two fold issue I have:

    First - I don't think we have the proper coaching staff. When the coaching staff can't teach something as simply as to turn around for the ball and not rely on face gaurding then there is an issue. When every player regresses from year 1 to years 2,3,4 then we have an issue (see McCourty, Ras starter for 2 games last year then dropped off face of earth, Moore significant drop off, Butler)

    Second - He just seems to be extremely bad at picking DB's in the first 2 rounds. McCourty needs work but has starting ability and Chung has suddenly turned into a mediocre S at best. Ras I have no clue where he went and Wilson looked lost when asked to play every down. This is getting sad

    Third - BB has rarely failed when getting front 7 players in the first 2 rounds. Cunningham is a JAGish pass rushing specialist and Brace is no where to be seen but almost all his front 7 picks have turned out great, even Hill was showing high improve before the tragedy



    nice points. i only ask why have you not backed me up for 2 years for saying the same with all  kinds of noise responses/attack on teh board. which led me to say the same suggestion you make above last year (till very late in teh process wehn i wanted jenkins and finnegan)




    Bred - I was one of the first to come out wanting Finnegan last year but not at the price he was paid. I just don't pay DB's that much period. I'm a guy who thinks you can compensate for average to good CB's with the right people in the trenches but even shut down CB's can't compensate for a lack of a pass rush. As such if I'm paying that much money for a player it's going to an impact player in the trenches not one that's covering 1 of 3-5 receivers on the field. I still feel you can find good starting caliber DB's in the market that will vastly improve the team without paying top dollar for them.

    As for Jenkins This contradicts what I said. Any CB that BB drafts seems to perform well below their talent so I didn't want him to draft any DB's period. I wanted front 7 first. Fix the pass rush then take care of the secondary. In addition I just don't trust Jenkins as a person. I don't think he has good character and imo he's going to get himself into a lot of trouble in a short amount of time. you could have all the talent in the world but all it takes are some issues and you could sink an entire unit. Look at what Cro did to the SD secondary, they had to dump him for all his issues.

    That's why I don't always support you because there are limits to how far I would go for a player. As a fan not looking at the money I'd sign every high priced FA possible but the engineer in me sees the puzzle of the money and realizes there are some pieces that are much more important to take up space then others

     

  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from mbeaulieu07. Show mbeaulieu07's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    posted at 10/16/2012 11:08 AM EDT

    In response to PatsNut5480's comment:

    Like everyone here I have been very frustrated with the play of our DB's.  I think the problem of not turning around is that they are constantly getting beat and trying to catch up to the receivers.  Chung is a free agent and I don't think they are going to re-sign him.  He's to unreliable in coverage and often injured.  So that really leaves Gregory, Wilson, and Ebner out there.  I don't know maybe they move McCourty or Dowling to safety. 

    All that being said I think Safety is one of the biggest if not the biggest need in the draft.  The guy I have been impressed with is Kenny Vaccarro out of Texas.  Seems like a heady player with good speed and size combo.  Looks pretty good in covering both the run and pass.  I've seen him do well covering the slot receiver to.  For corner I of course like Milliner but Xavier Rhodes might be another to keep an eye on.  Big physical corner who looks like he can play man to man and jam the receivers. 

    Wilson is going to go through some bumps this season.  He's a rookie so I'm going to hold off on judgement but we all know the track record of drafting DB's.  Maybe a linebacker that is fast and solid in coverage might be another need.  They have 3 big run stopping linebackers that have good instincts but may not be able to keep up with faster tight ends and backs. 



    Vaccaro is def up there with the top group of S in this class.  Versatile, good size, moves well, physical, but he too has had some issues with angles and tackling... def seems to be a common theme among a lot of the college S... heck, maybe I'm being to harsh on these kids... guess I'd just expect more consistency in that area.

    I'm with you on Wilson, kid's still gettting his feet wet... it was a huge blown assignment and hopefully he learns from it and doesn't make the same mistake againt... seems like a well ground kid that puts in the time to get better.

     

  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsNut5480. Show PatsNut5480's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    posted at 10/16/2012 11:33 AM EDT

    In response to mbeaulieu07's comment:

    In response to PatsNut5480's comment:

    Like everyone here I have been very frustrated with the play of our DB's.  I think the problem of not turning around is that they are constantly getting beat and trying to catch up to the receivers.  Chung is a free agent and I don't think they are going to re-sign him.  He's to unreliable in coverage and often injured.  So that really leaves Gregory, Wilson, and Ebner out there.  I don't know maybe they move McCourty or Dowling to safety. 

    All that being said I think Safety is one of the biggest if not the biggest need in the draft.  The guy I have been impressed with is Kenny Vaccarro out of Texas.  Seems like a heady player with good speed and size combo.  Looks pretty good in covering both the run and pass.  I've seen him do well covering the slot receiver to.  For corner I of course like Milliner but Xavier Rhodes might be another to keep an eye on.  Big physical corner who looks like he can play man to man and jam the receivers. 

    Wilson is going to go through some bumps this season.  He's a rookie so I'm going to hold off on judgement but we all know the track record of drafting DB's.  Maybe a linebacker that is fast and solid in coverage might be another need.  They have 3 big run stopping linebackers that have good instincts but may not be able to keep up with faster tight ends and backs. 



    Vaccaro is def up there with the top group of S in this class.  Versatile, good size, moves well, physical, but he too has had some issues with angles and tackling... def seems to be a common theme among a lot of the college S... heck, maybe I'm being to harsh on these kids... guess I'd just expect more consistency in that area.

    I'm with you on Wilson, kid's still gettting his feet wet... it was a huge blown assignment and hopefully he learns from it and doesn't make the same mistake againt... seems like a well ground kid that puts in the time to get better.



    I've noticed the same thing MB in regards to takling and assignments with safeties in college.  Vaccarro does miss some tackles however he seems to be solid in pass coverage which is what the Pats need.  I might check out Tony Jefferson of Oklahoma next.  Any opinions on him?

     

  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsNut5480. Show PatsNut5480's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    posted at 10/16/2012 11:45 AM EDT

    In response to PatsEng's comment:

    PatsNut - I agree over the top coverage is one of our biggest weaknesses. When our CB's play 10 yards off and and still have WR's behind them then clearly the S's aren't providing the right coverage. I do think that with the right S's then McCourty will drasticully improve and I think Dennard has great potential. Now Ras might be that player. One theory I have been thinking about is the reason we haven't seen a lot of Ras is because they are in the middle of converting him to S and don't want to kill and progress he's made in the conversion by having him have regular reps as a CB. Either way though if the CB's are playing catch up they still need to make an effort to turn around for the ball. Almost all the PI have come because they never turn and not because they actually interfer with the receiver. If they just turned 80% of those PI's actually wouldn't be PI's



    Good points PatsEng, I hope you're right about Dowling however I think we would have seen him at the end of the game against Seattle.  Instead they had Ebner in there which he is definitely not ready just yet to be playing important minutes.  As far as turning around it's probably a bad habit these guys picked up or maybe it's the coaching which I can't wrap my head around.  Either way the safety spot is crucial to help the corners out.  I understand it's tough to play in todays NFL as a corner so it's important to have good safeties to help out. 

     

  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from mbeaulieu07. Show mbeaulieu07's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    posted at 10/16/2012 3:46 PM EDT

    In response to PatsNut5480's comment:

    In response to mbeaulieu07's comment:

    In response to PatsNut5480's comment:

    Like everyone here I have been very frustrated with the play of our DB's.  I think the problem of not turning around is that they are constantly getting beat and trying to catch up to the receivers.  Chung is a free agent and I don't think they are going to re-sign him.  He's to unreliable in coverage and often injured.  So that really leaves Gregory, Wilson, and Ebner out there.  I don't know maybe they move McCourty or Dowling to safety. 

    All that being said I think Safety is one of the biggest if not the biggest need in the draft.  The guy I have been impressed with is Kenny Vaccarro out of Texas.  Seems like a heady player with good speed and size combo.  Looks pretty good in covering both the run and pass.  I've seen him do well covering the slot receiver to.  For corner I of course like Milliner but Xavier Rhodes might be another to keep an eye on.  Big physical corner who looks like he can play man to man and jam the receivers. 

    Wilson is going to go through some bumps this season.  He's a rookie so I'm going to hold off on judgement but we all know the track record of drafting DB's.  Maybe a linebacker that is fast and solid in coverage might be another need.  They have 3 big run stopping linebackers that have good instincts but may not be able to keep up with faster tight ends and backs. 



    Vaccaro is def up there with the top group of S in this class.  Versatile, good size, moves well, physical, but he too has had some issues with angles and tackling... def seems to be a common theme among a lot of the college S... heck, maybe I'm being to harsh on these kids... guess I'd just expect more consistency in that area.

    I'm with you on Wilson, kid's still gettting his feet wet... it was a huge blown assignment and hopefully he learns from it and doesn't make the same mistake againt... seems like a well ground kid that puts in the time to get better.



    I've noticed the same thing MB in regards to takling and assignments with safeties in college.  Vaccarro does miss some tackles however he seems to be solid in pass coverage which is what the Pats need.  I might check out Tony Jefferson of Oklahoma next.  Any opinions on him?



    Jefferson has some similarities to Elam as a "Smaller" versatile type S that plays a physical brand of football and moves around the field quote a bit... def worth checking out.

     

     

  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from JohnHannahrulz. Show JohnHannahrulz's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    posted at 10/16/2012 4:30 PM EDT

    I brought up the point (on the 2011 draft thread) that the Pats need bigger DBs to cover bigger WRs and prevent them from getting seperation. In some ways Seattle has employed this tactic successfully. So now the Pats could be in the market for CB or FS and they need one that is rangy and has decent size and phyisicality. IMO in this current incarnation of the passing era you need DBs that are nearly as big as there WR counterparts.  The ol safety or CB that is solid tackler isn't enough.

     

  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from mbeaulieu07. Show mbeaulieu07's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    posted at 10/17/2012 9:41 AM EDT

    In response to JohnHannahrulz's comment:

    I brought up the point (on the 2011 draft thread) that the Pats need bigger DBs to cover bigger WRs and prevent them from getting seperation. In some ways Seattle has employed this tactic successfully. So now the Pats could be in the market for CB or FS and they need one that is rangy and has decent size and phyisicality. IMO in this current incarnation of the passing era you need DBs that are nearly as big as there WR counterparts.  The ol safety or CB that is solid tackler isn't enough.



    IMO, they're DB issues have more to do with bad technique and blown assignments than they do with size of the players... with that being said, drafting another "big" DB or two (on top of Ras-I) wouldn't be a bad thing... and this years DB class does project to have a good amount of CB/S that are 6-0 to 6-1+.

     

  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    posted at 10/17/2012 3:50 PM EDT

    In response to mbeaulieu07's comment:

    In response to JohnHannahrulz's comment:

    I brought up the point (on the 2011 draft thread) that the Pats need bigger DBs to cover bigger WRs and prevent them from getting seperation. In some ways Seattle has employed this tactic successfully. So now the Pats could be in the market for CB or FS and they need one that is rangy and has decent size and phyisicality. IMO in this current incarnation of the passing era you need DBs that are nearly as big as there WR counterparts.  The ol safety or CB that is solid tackler isn't enough.



    IMO, they're DB issues have more to do with bad technique and blown assignments than they do with size of the players... with that being said, drafting another "big" DB or two (on top of Ras-I) wouldn't be a bad thing... and this years DB class does project to have a good amount of CB/S that are 6-0 to 6-1+.



    "IMO, they're DB issues have more to do with bad technique and blown assignments than they do with size of the players... with that being said, drafting another "big" DB or two"

    +1 and +1

    though can we draft cbs?

     

  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from maine12. Show maine12's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    posted at 10/17/2012 6:25 PM EDT

    I still think the Pats should persue a pass rusher with our first round pick. Bill does better drafting big bodied players apposed to speedsters. Another pass rusher to get after qb's and maybe signing a CB could be a good option.

     

  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from mbeaulieu07. Show mbeaulieu07's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    posted at 10/17/2012 7:17 PM EDT

    In response to bredbru's comment:

    In response to mbeaulieu07's comment:

    In response to JohnHannahrulz's comment:

    I brought up the point (on the 2011 draft thread) that the Pats need bigger DBs to cover bigger WRs and prevent them from getting seperation. In some ways Seattle has employed this tactic successfully. So now the Pats could be in the market for CB or FS and they need one that is rangy and has decent size and phyisicality. IMO in this current incarnation of the passing era you need DBs that are nearly as big as there WR counterparts.  The ol safety or CB that is solid tackler isn't enough.



    IMO, they're DB issues have more to do with bad technique and blown assignments than they do with size of the players... with that being said, drafting another "big" DB or two (on top of Ras-I) wouldn't be a bad thing... and this years DB class does project to have a good amount of CB/S that are 6-0 to 6-1+.



    "IMO, they're DB issues have more to do with bad technique and blown assignments than they do with size of the players... with that being said, drafting another "big" DB or two"

    +1 and +1

    though can we draft cbs?



    BB/NC are prob more optimistic about the position, now and into the future than most of Patriots' Nation.

     

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