Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***
posted at 2/15/2013 5:48 PM EST
In response to Godvernment's comment:
In response to mbeaulieu07's comment:
Bottomline is, Ace has been more productive against better comp. Don't know what you're using to quantify lower body strength (long speed?), but Ace is one of the quicker, more explosive stop/start players in the country, so he's clearly not lacking in that department. I also disagree with you on the receiving skills piece... Sanders is able to consistently get open, executes very well in the underneath area... catches the ball away from his body and gets up the field in a hurry and is a threat every time he touches the ball due to his quicks/RAC ability. He's also been good in the redzone using a quick out or "7" route to quickly seperate. As for the blocking part... Ace tends to go low, which makes sense due to his height and has been effective in that area, though like most young players (he's only a JR), he can use some work there... I haven't seen much of Goodwin as a blocker, outside of his one crackback block that popped a dudes helmet off, where he was flagged 15 yards.
Look, I see the value of a kid like Goodwin, a speed player with some upside and if he ends up in NE, I'll be pretty psyched, but you haven't really given any tangible reasons to why Ace can't succeed (I'd be surprised if he didn't) as a WR at the NFL level.
there are no real tangible's when it comes to the draft and projecting players from college to the NFL. that's why 6th round picks become HOF'ers and top 10 picks bust. college stats mean next to nothing, it's the INTANGIBLE's that mean the most.
when i watch sanders i see a guy with the build of a scat back, and the skill set of a top notch PR and backup receiver/3rd down running back. he's more quick than he is fast, potential is strictly as a slot receiver. but what tangible evidence is there in his film that tells you he can last an entire NFL season in the slot while consistently having to work the middle of field? the film shows a finesse player who stays to the outside and only comes across the middle on drag routes.
while i will admit goodwin hasn't proven that either, the difference IMO is that goodwin has potential to be a top 2 receiver and work on the outside. goodwin is more solidly built with a thicker lower body. you don't become an olympic long jumper without great lower body strength. if you watch some film you will see he is a very willing and aggressive blocker, great burst, great long speed, doesn't lose speed when locating the ball, is able to adjust to the ball and attack it in the air with great leaping ability. he was also the lead blocker for the KR unit.
in all 60 catches recorded by sanders i didn't see a single impressive reception that made me think he was special as a receiver. his yac ability is special, but his receiving skills? whole other story. i didn't see him take hits over the middle, i didn't see him make catches while getting hit, i didn't see him make any tough catches while fighting for the ball, i didn't see him show the ability to attack the ball in the air.
i saw these things from goodwin... and in half as many touches. why was his production less? if you do some actual scouting and investigating you will learn that he missed all of the spring and summer practices and some of the fall practices and was never really implemented into the game plan as a main receiving threat. he wasn't used correctly at texas. how do i know? just look at the night and day improvements he showed at the senior bowl.
so if we are judging by college stats then sure ace is the better player... landry jones is the best QB, stedman bailey is the best WR, kenjon barner is the best RB and tim tebow is the best QB prospect ever. but i'm judging by what i see and what i project. my eyes tell me goodwin is the better player, the odds tell me neither will ever become much of anything as receivers.
You mention intangibles as meaning the most, yet Tim Tebow has them in spades and will (or should) never be more than a backup QB at the NFL level, and I'm a person who likes him as a player (from his FLA days). Sure they're important, I talk at length about character and competitiveness and kids who put in the time off the field watching film/preparing, but they too are just part of the scouting process.
Sanders and Goodwin are basically the same height/weight, we're talking 3/4 of an inch and maybe 5 pounds (guess we'll know for sure at the combine), both are muscular and compact so I don't know what relevance size has on the subject.
Goodwin's tape consists mostly of end arounds, posts and fly patterns... don't see him doing a whole lot of damage over the middle, operating in traffic... did see him make a couple of nice catches along the sideline, keeping his feet in bounds, which was impressive. I don't see a whole lot of him blocking on tape, but in checking out scouting reports, it doesn't appear to be the strength that you're making it out to be, instead it's listed as a weakness.
You can leave out the smart a$S comments about scouting and investigating as I do as much of that as anyone on here.
We can agree to disagree, my money is on Ace... though I'd take either.