***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from moskk. Show moskk's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    In response to seattlepat70's comment:

    In response to mbeaulieu07's comment:

     

    ......


    The wild card is gauging BPA according to mainstream publications/perception (which can vary greatly) vs. BPA according to BB/NC. 

     

     




     

    Yup... Ranking the players is not a science and more art. information is imperfect. Different people can interpret the same information differenrly. a reach in one's eyes may be perfect valuation to another. 

    As to BPA... IMO, it's easy to use a pure BPA approach to the draft if you have many holes to fill and are still in the process of building a core for your team. Some teams are in a different situation. They may be one or two holes away from being in position to make a deep run in the playoffs. In that case, you're probably going to draft the best available who fits those holes. 

      In most respects your comment represents good reasoning.  However, in the example of Peter Konz (2012 draft) the Pats were not that interested because we had a "good" and stable OL.  Yet two OL defections left us vulnerable and though we filled the holes with"adequate" personnel we did not have a future all pro OL that we could have had.  The contributions of Tavon Wilson paled in comparison to what Konz meant to the Atlanta OL.  Konz represented a dominant OL and a probable 10 year  ALL PRO.  Such is the distinction between drafting for need as opposed to the BPA.


    In many respects our team stengths are one injury away from positional weakness and this is the logic of drafting the BPA rather than a situational or borderline talent who could merely represent a stop-gap fill.

     

     
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  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from mbeaulieu07. Show mbeaulieu07's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    In response to Godvernment's comment:

    In response to mbeaulieu07's comment:

     

    In response to Godvernment's comment:

     

    Ace Sanders is strictly a punt returner. Demps is a swiss army knife (PR/KR/RB/WR). Sanders showed next to nothing as a receiver, no way that guy comes in and contributes as a reciever within the first 2-3 years. small route tree consisting of drag routes and fly routes... no thanks. he is fun to watch as a punt returner though, but Demps is better.

    give me marquise goodwin! Demps can handle PR/KR 

     

     

    Right, Ace has shown next to nothing, but Goodwin, with his 25 catches last season, is advanced and ready to produce.

     



    true, but sometimes stats don't tell the whole story. since getting his olympic dreams out of his system goodwin is focusing of football and has shown strong improvements in his game.   more lower body strength than sanders and much better receiving skills IMO. goodwin is also hands down the better blocker. i think his #'s are more of a result of being under used rather than under performing.

     

    remember i said ace sanders will be nothing more than a great PR/KR and a gimmick player in the NFL.. devin hester jr. (but not as fast)




    Bottomline is, Ace has been more productive against better comp.  Don't know what you're using to quantify lower body strength (long speed?), but Ace is one of the quicker, more explosive stop/start players in the country, so he's clearly not lacking in that department.  I also disagree with you on the receiving skills piece... Sanders is able to consistently get open,  executes very well in the underneath area... catches the ball away from his body and gets up the field in a hurry and is a threat every time he touches the ball due to his quicks/RAC ability.  He's also been good in the redzone using a quick out or "7" route to quickly seperate.  As for the blocking part... Ace tends to go low, which makes sense due to his height and has been effective in that area, though like most young players (he's only a JR), he can use some work there... I haven't seen much of Goodwin as a blocker, outside of his one crackback block that popped a dudes helmet off, where he was flagged 15 yards.

    Look, I see the value of a kid like Goodwin, a speed player with some upside and if he ends up in NE, I'll be pretty psyched, but you haven't really given any tangible reasons to why Ace can't succeed (I'd be surprised if he didn't) as a WR at the NFL level. 

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from mbeaulieu07. Show mbeaulieu07's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    In response to Godvernment's comment:

    There is a reliable, hard-working offensive player who has great size and soft hands.  He can catch the football, block like a demon and outwork defenders.  He's made clutch catches and fancy catches, and he is available in a pinch.

    His name is Justice Cunningham. 

    While he isn't statistically dangerous, anyone who has watched the Gamecocks play knows that he is an underrated and valuable member of the Gamecock offense.

    He's the definition of a traditional tight end.  His blocking is on par with a tackle.  He has excellent technique and the ability to knock anyone back.  He's intelligent and capable of picking up blitzes and stunts.

    He's also under-valued with his pass-catching.  The offense doesn't use him often, so he doesn't put up mind-blowing stats, but his soft hands and big body make him a reliable third-down weapon. 

    For a player like Cunningham, statistics do not show off his true value.  Ironically, he may even see less statistical production with the explosive "Buster" Anderson carving out the role of field-stretching tight end in 2011.  But that doesn't make him a poor player.  In fact, I would go as far as to say that Justice Cunningham has NFL-caliber talent. 

    Cunningham would be a capable member of a running team.  If he was targeted more, he could put up big numbers, as he skills as a receiver aren't lacking.

    Overall, I hope Justice Cunningham is remembered for the important player he's been, not for the raw statistical data that people will look at in 20 years. 

    He's been a great Gamecock and, hopefully, a memorable one.  

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1186787-south-carolina-football-justice-cunningham-is-mr-underrated-at-tight-end



    Seems like the kind of dual purpose TE that they like to employ, I'll check him out.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from sportsbozo1. Show sportsbozo1's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    In response to sportslover21's comment:

    In response to pumpsiefan's comment:

     

    Here's a BB special that would put me in the grave...

    they trade Mallet for a 2nd round pick and with their first take QB Matt Barkley.

    I still haven't gotten over the Wilson pick last year. I know BB is just plotting another way to show what a genius he is and what morons we all are.

     




     

    What exactly would be the point of trading your current backup for a 2nd? And taking an overrated, mediocre QB in Matt Barkley in the 1st?

    Mallett won't be traded for less than a 1rst round pick.


     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Low-FB-IQ. Show Low-FB-IQ's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    Only looked at a very few players so far but 1st one to jump out is Deandre Hopkins.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    In response to sportsbozo1's comment:

    In response to sportslover21's comment:

     

    In response to pumpsiefan's comment:

     

    Here's a BB special that would put me in the grave...

    they trade Mallet for a 2nd round pick and with their first take QB Matt Barkley.

    I still haven't gotten over the Wilson pick last year. I know BB is just plotting another way to show what a genius he is and what morons we all are.

     




     

    What exactly would be the point of trading your current backup for a 2nd? And taking an overrated, mediocre QB in Matt Barkley in the 1st?

     

    Mallett won't be traded for less than a 1rst round pick.


     




    Well top 50 I'd trade him for. There are a couple mid round QB's I'd take a look at and like but having 2 picks in the top 50 would warrent moving Mallett. Esp since the level of talent for CB's, WR's, and DT's is suppose to remain relatively high to about 50.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Low-FB-IQ. Show Low-FB-IQ's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    Anyone else watch Keenen Allen highlights and feel like they were watching Aaron Hernandez?

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from mbeaulieu07. Show mbeaulieu07's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    In response to Low-FB-IQ's comment:

     

    Only looked at a very few players so far but 1st one to jump out is Deandre Hopkins.

     




    Top WR on my board and he's a def a thread favorite.... love his combo of size and movement ability... kid is clutch and is also proven against very good comp.  He tempts me in Rd 1, though I still prefer they target D there.

     

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Low-FB-IQ. Show Low-FB-IQ's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    In response to mbeaulieu07's comment:

    In response to Low-FB-IQ's comment:

     

    Only looked at a very few players so far but 1st one to jump out is Deandre Hopkins.

     




    Top WR on my board and he's a def a thread favorite.... love his combo of size and movement ability... kid is clutch and is also proven against very good comp.  He tempts me in Rd 1, though I still prefer they target D there.

     



    Agreed. I was thinking the same. Although I don't place high value on the position. If he was actually there at 29, depending on what else was there, he would be tempting.

    All that being said... How many years have we been conversing about the draft here? 3 or more? Seems anytime we identify someone like this, by draft time others catchup or the player stands out at the combine and it's a non decision because they are long gone by the end of round 1.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from sportslover21. Show sportslover21's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    In response to PatsEng's comment:

    In response to sportsbozo1's comment:

     

    In response to sportslover21's comment:

     

    In response to pumpsiefan's comment:

     

    Here's a BB special that would put me in the grave...

    they trade Mallet for a 2nd round pick and with their first take QB Matt Barkley.

    I still haven't gotten over the Wilson pick last year. I know BB is just plotting another way to show what a genius he is and what morons we all are.

     




     

    What exactly would be the point of trading your current backup for a 2nd? And taking an overrated, mediocre QB in Matt Barkley in the 1st?

     

    Mallett won't be traded for less than a 1rst round pick.


     

     




    Well top 50 I'd trade him for. There are a couple mid round QB's I'd take a look at and like but having 2 picks in the top 50 would warrent moving Mallett. Esp since the level of talent for CB's, WR's, and DT's is suppose to remain relatively high to about 50.

     




    Well, I'd trade Mallett for a Top 50 pick as well. But the 2nd part (taking Barkley who is garbage in Round 1), was what made no sense.

     

    If we get offered a Top 50 pick for Mallett, you have to take it.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from mbeaulieu07. Show mbeaulieu07's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    In response to Low-FB-IQ's comment:

     

    In response to mbeaulieu07's comment:

     

    In response to Low-FB-IQ's comment:

     

    Only looked at a very few players so far but 1st one to jump out is Deandre Hopkins.

     




    Top WR on my board and he's a def a thread favorite.... love his combo of size and movement ability... kid is clutch and is also proven against very good comp.  He tempts me in Rd 1, though I still prefer they target D there.

     

     



    Agreed. I was thinking the same. Although I don't place high value on the position. If he was actually there at 29, depending on what else was there, he would be tempting.

     

    All that being said... How many years have we been conversing about the draft here? 3 or more? Seems anytime we identify someone like this, by draft time others catchup or the player stands out at the combine and it's a non decision because they are long gone by the end of round 1.

     

    I think this class has some pretty good depth at the perimeter skill positions (CB/S/WR), which benefits a team like NE who could use help at all three.

    Believe this is the 3rd year that we've had the thread, but I agree, we've been pretty good at identifying talent early on... players that generally end up ranked/drafted a lot higher than originally projected.

     

     
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  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    Hopkins would be tempting in round 1, but as some have said, if a good DT is available, I am taking it. There is depth throughout this draft at WR, DT, and cb. Bb has to convert one of this first picks into multiples I think. 

    Anyone like cordelle Patterson in the late 2nd? Like his size, speed combo and utility knife in the way of KR/pr/wr

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from moskk. Show moskk's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    In response to sportslover21's comment:

    In response to PatsEng's comment:

     

    In response to sportsbozo1's comment:

     

    In response to sportslover21's comment:

     

    In response to pumpsiefan's comment:

     

    Here's a BB special that would put me in the grave...

    they trade Mallet for a 2nd round pick and with their first take QB Matt Barkley.

    I still haven't gotten over the Wilson pick last year. I know BB is just plotting another way to show what a genius he is and what morons we all are.

     




     

    What exactly would be the point of trading your current backup for a 2nd? And taking an overrated, mediocre QB in Matt Barkley in the 1st?

     

    Mallett won't be traded for less than a 1rst round pick.


     

     




    Well top 50 I'd trade him for. There are a couple mid round QB's I'd take a look at and like but having 2 picks in the top 50 would warrent moving Mallett. Esp since the level of talent for CB's, WR's, and DT's is suppose to remain relatively high to about 50.

     

     




    I haven't read anything about Mallet's developement as a QB.  The last item about him seemed to suggest that he was skilled on long passes but was struggling with play-action and the intermediate throws as well as recognition of defensive weaknesses...... and a bit slow on progression through 1st, 2nd, third option passes.  I'm sure that this information is dated..... Anyone have updated information?...practice performance?

     

    Well, I'd trade Mallett for a Top 50 pick as well. But the 2nd part (taking Barkley who is garbage in Round 1), was what made no sense.

     

    If we get offered a Top 50 pick for Mallett, you have to take it.




     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from sportslover21. Show sportslover21's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    In response to PatsLifer's comment:

    Hopkins would be tempting in round 1, but as some have said, if a good DT is available, I am taking it. There is depth throughout this draft at WR, DT, and cb. Bb has to convert one of this first picks into multiples I think. 

    Anyone like cordelle Patterson in the late 2nd? Like his size, speed combo and utility knife in the way of KR/pr/wr




    I'd love Patterson in the late 2nd. But unfortunately for us, he will be going Top 15-20 in the Draft. Kid is a stud.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from mbeaulieu07. Show mbeaulieu07's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    In response to Godvernment's comment:

    In response to mbeaulieu07's comment:

     



    Bottomline is, Ace has been more productive against better comp.  Don't know what you're using to quantify lower body strength (long speed?), but Ace is one of the quicker, more explosive stop/start players in the country, so he's clearly not lacking in that department.  I also disagree with you on the receiving skills piece... Sanders is able to consistently get open,  executes very well in the underneath area... catches the ball away from his body and gets up the field in a hurry and is a threat every time he touches the ball due to his quicks/RAC ability.  He's also been good in the redzone using a quick out or "7" route to quickly seperate.  As for the blocking part... Ace tends to go low, which makes sense due to his height and has been effective in that area, though like most young players (he's only a JR), he can use some work there... I haven't seen much of Goodwin as a blocker, outside of his one crackback block that popped a dudes helmet off, where he was flagged 15 yards.

     

    Look, I see the value of a kid like Goodwin, a speed player with some upside and if he ends up in NE, I'll be pretty psyched, but you haven't really given any tangible reasons to why Ace can't succeed (I'd be surprised if he didn't) as a WR at the NFL level. 

     

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    there are no real tangible's when it comes to the draft and projecting players from college to the NFL. that's why 6th round picks become HOF'ers and top 10 picks bust.  college stats mean next to nothing, it's the INTANGIBLE's that mean the most. 

     when i watch sanders i see a guy with the build of a scat back, and the skill set of a top notch PR and backup receiver/3rd down running back. he's more quick than he is fast, potential is strictly as a slot receiver. but what tangible evidence is there in his film that tells you he can last an entire NFL season in the slot while consistently having to work the middle of field? the film shows a finesse player who stays to the outside and only comes across the middle on drag routes. 

    while i will admit goodwin hasn't proven that either, the difference IMO is that goodwin has potential to be a top 2 receiver and work on the outside. goodwin is more solidly built with a thicker lower body. you don't become an olympic long jumper without great lower body strength. if you watch some film you will see he is a very willing and aggressive blocker, great burst, great long speed, doesn't lose speed when locating the ball, is able to adjust to the ball and attack it in the air with great leaping ability. he was also the lead blocker for the KR unit.

    in all 60 catches recorded by sanders i didn't see a single impressive reception that made me think he was special as a receiver. his yac ability is special, but his receiving skills? whole other story. i didn't see him take hits over the middle, i didn't see him make catches while getting hit, i didn't see him make any tough catches while fighting for the ball, i didn't see him show the ability to attack the ball in the air. 

    i saw these things from goodwin... and in half as many touches. why was his production less? if you do some actual scouting and investigating you will learn that he missed all of the spring and summer practices and some of the fall practices and was never really implemented into the game plan as a main receiving threat. he wasn't used correctly at texas. how do i know? just look at the night and day improvements he showed at the senior bowl. 

    so if we are judging by college stats then sure ace is the better player... landry jones is the best QB, stedman bailey is the best WR, kenjon barner is the best RB and tim tebow is the best QB prospect ever. but i'm judging by what i see and what i project. my eyes tell me goodwin is the better player, the odds tell me neither will ever become much of anything as receivers.

     

    You mention intangibles as meaning the most, yet Tim Tebow has them in spades and will (or should) never be more than a backup QB at the NFL level, and I'm a person who likes him as a player (from his FLA days).  Sure they're important, I talk at length about character and competitiveness and kids who put in the time off the field watching film/preparing, but they too are just part of the scouting process.


    Sanders and Goodwin are basically the same height/weight, we're talking 3/4 of an inch and maybe 5 pounds (guess we'll know for sure at the combine), both are muscular and compact so I don't know what relevance size has on the subject. 

    Goodwin's tape consists mostly of end arounds, posts and fly patterns... don't see him doing a whole lot of damage over the middle, operating in traffic... did see him make a couple of nice catches along the sideline, keeping his feet in bounds, which was impressive.  I don't see a whole lot of him blocking on tape, but in checking out scouting reports, it doesn't appear to be the strength that you're making it out to be, instead it's listed as a weakness.

    You can leave out the smart a$S comments about scouting and investigating as I do as much of that as anyone on here.

    We can agree to disagree, my money is on Ace... though I'd take either.

     

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from mbeaulieu07. Show mbeaulieu07's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    In response to PatsLifer's comment:

    Hopkins would be tempting in round 1, but as some have said, if a good DT is available, I am taking it. There is depth throughout this draft at WR, DT, and cb. Bb has to convert one of this first picks into multiples I think. 

    Anyone like cordelle Patterson in the late 2nd? Like his size, speed combo and utility knife in the way of KR/pr/wr

    I still think a trade back is very likely.

    I see Patterson more as a Top 40-45 kid with Rd 1 upside.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from mbeaulieu07. Show mbeaulieu07's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    What's everyones favorite position to scout/follow?  It's safety, hands down for me... have always loved the physicality, intelligence and mindset that's generally valued/needed for the position.

    As a kid I idolized Chuck Cecil due to his nastiness/brutality on the field... below is an example:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AT14rYHV8CQ

     
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  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from mbeaulieu07. Show mbeaulieu07's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    In response to Godvernment's comment:

     

     

    You mention intangibles as meaning the most, yet Tim Tebow has them in spades and will (or should) never be more than a backup QB at the NFL level, and I'm a person who likes him as a player (from his FLA days).  Sure they're important, I talk at length about character and competitiveness and kids who put in the time off the field watching film/preparing, but they too are just part of the scouting process.


    Sanders and Goodwin are basically the same height/weight, we're talking 3/4 of an inch and maybe 5 pounds (guess we'll know for sure at the combine), both are muscular and compact so I don't know what relevance size has on the subject. 

    Goodwin's tape consists mostly of end arounds, posts and fly patterns... don't see him doing a whole lot of damage over the middle, operating in traffic... did see him make a couple of nice catches along the sideline, keeping his feet in bounds, which was impressive.  I don't see a whole lot of him blocking on tape, but in checking out scouting reports, it doesn't appear to be the strength that you're making it out to be, instead it's listed as a weakness.

    You can leave out the smart a$S comments about scouting and investigating as I do as much of that as anyone on here.

    We can agree to disagree, my money is on Ace... though I'd take either.

     

     ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    tim tebow has intagibles as a football player, not a QB. he has a great work ethic, but doesn't have a brain to play QB. but he did put up the greatest stats of any college QB and against the best competition... which ended up meaning squat. 

     

    yes, they are basically the same height/weight, but are built differently. what do you have Ace listed at? i've seen 5-7 175 and goodwin at 5-9 180. they've also got different skill sets and playing styles. to me, as i said previously, sanders is strictly a KR/KR in the NFL. his value is in his special teams and i would hate for NE to select a KR/PR in the top 3 rounds when they need a real receiver or atleast a guy they can develop into one. goodwin looks to have a skill set better suited for wide receiver and better suited for what NE needs, a deep threat. 

    we shall see....

     



    Goodwin was 5-8 3/4 - 179 at the Senior Bowl, Sanders is listed at 5-8 175... curious of his actuals... we should know in the next 7-10 days. 

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    In response to Low-FB-IQ's comment:

    In response to mbeaulieu07's comment:

     

    In response to Low-FB-IQ's comment:

     

    Only looked at a very few players so far but 1st one to jump out is Deandre Hopkins.

     




    Top WR on my board and he's a def a thread favorite.... love his combo of size and movement ability... kid is clutch and is also proven against very good comp.  He tempts me in Rd 1, though I still prefer they target D there.

     

     



    Agreed. I was thinking the same. Although I don't place high value on the position. If he was actually there at 29, depending on what else was there, he would be tempting.

     

    All that being said... How many years have we been conversing about the draft here? 3 or more? Seems anytime we identify someone like this, by draft time others catchup or the player stands out at the combine and it's a non decision because they are long gone by the end of round 1.



    good point

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    In response to PatsLifer's comment:

    Hopkins would be tempting in round 1, but as some have said, if a good DT is available, I am taking it. There is depth throughout this draft at WR, DT, and cb. Bb has to convert one of this first picks into multiples I think. 

    Anyone like cordelle Patterson in the late 2nd? Like his size, speed combo and utility knife in the way of KR/pr/wr



    if we have a pass rusher in fa i go cb and wr in rd 1 and 2 can be intgerchangeable. in rd 3, could be anythign from o line, dt, cove rlb, safety, etc.

    patterson does look good to me., some have him going in top 20. intermittant hands a bit.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: ***2013 Patriots Draft Thread V2***

    In response to Low-FB-IQ's comment:

    Only looked at a very few players so far but 1st one to jump out is Deandre Hopkins.



    he was the first wr i began mentioing when chiming in

    i saw 1 -2 or 3 wrs ahead of him, feelging we have a chance  fro top wr starting at him (and going down) and like his size and ability. 

    i see several in this category. 

    bigger the size, along with the speed, separation and hands is what im looking for.

     
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