2nd half collapses, Charlie Weis, Maroney bashers and more...

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    2nd half collapses, Charlie Weis, Maroney bashers and more...

    Obviously there are multiple threads regarding all of the subjects in my headline and most answers to questions regarding problems the PAT's have had since Charlie Weis left, both with winning championships and an effective running game can be summed up and/or solved with an understanding of the offensive system that was used with great effectiveness on the championship Giant's teams in the 80's under Parcells, every team he has gone to since and the PAT's under Bill Belichick and Charlie Weis.

    Instead of responding to the endless threads on above subjects and beating a dead horse, I figured I would just create an all encompassing thread to explain my man crush on Charlie Weis and reservations with our current offensive philosophy... if in fact we have one? 

    The
    Erhardt-Perkins offensive system is set up to win and nothing else, stats be damned, and winning by thirty is no different than winning by three.  The overriding theory was "pass to score, run to win" as well as "run to set up the pass" and it was considered a smash mouth type of football.  The New York press decried Parcells for being "boring," "conservative" and basically putting his audience to sleep.  The only fans that jumped on that bandwagon though were the narrow minded, because what couldn’t be argued with was the system's effectiveness.

    The similarity between the 80’s Giants and Weis’s Patriots is more than just the system, it is also the personnel and how they are used.  Some comparisons:

    Kevin Faulk/Dave Meggett = both were effective third down backs, incredible receivers out of the backfield and big play kick returners.

    Otis Anderson, Joe Morris/Patriot running backs =  both teams had a stable of running backs, large and powerful and the running game was the foundation of the offense. Getting ten yards for a first down was the goal instead of eyeing the end zone on every possession.  The idea was ball control, using the clock against the other team; individual stats and glory be damned.  Whoever was the starting back was irrelevant as long as the system was employed and the back was healthy.

    Mark Bavaro/Coates, Dan Graham, Watson = Many have wondered why we have spent numerous high picks on tight ends but no other position does more both in run blocking, receiving, creating third down and end zone mismatches than the tightend.

    Phil McConkey/Troy Brown, Wes Welker = While all the other receivers were all purpose guys who could burn you on every down, McConkey was the epitome of the small guy with lateral quickness and a heap of toughness over the middle.  He was a third down machine for the Giants and so are/were Brown and Welker.

    There are a lot more similarities like offensive linemen that were versatile enough to play across the line and the 3/4 defense Belichick employed as the defensive coordinator of the Giants, but the offensive side of the system is what's in disarray with our current Patriots and has cost us at least one super bowl.

    For more information check out this link:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_England_Patriots_strategy#Erhardt_-_Perkins_Offensive_System

     

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from themightypatriotz. Show themightypatriotz's posts

    Re: 2nd half collapses, Charlie Weis, Maroney bashers and more...

    Thanks wozzy, nice post.  So what would you say we should do to fix the team's second half woes this season?

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from mojobag101. Show mojobag101's posts

    Re: 2nd half collapses, Charlie Weis, Maroney bashers and more...

    In Response to 2nd half collapses, Charlie Weis, Maroney bashers and more...:
    [QUOTE]Obviously there are multiple threads regarding all of the subjects in my headline and most answers to questions regarding problems the PAT's have had since Charlie Weis left, both with winning championships and an effective running game can be summed up and/or solved with an understanding of the offensive system that was used with great effectiveness on the championship Giant's teams in the 80's under Parcells, every team he has gone to since and the PAT's under Bill Belichick and Charlie Weis. Instead of responding to the endless threads on above subjects and beating a dead horse, I figured I would just create an all encompassing thread to explain my man crush on Charlie Weis and reservations with our current offensive philosophy... if in fact we have one?  The Erhardt-Perkins offensive system is set up to win and nothing else, stats be damned, and winning by thirty is no different than winning by three.  The overriding theory was "pass to score, run to win" as well as "run to set up the pass" and it was considered a smash mouth type of football.  The New York press decried Parcells for being "boring," "conservative" and basically putting his audience to sleep.  The only fans that jumped on that bandwagon though were the narrow minded, because what couldn’t be argued with was the system's effectiveness. The similarity between the 80’s Giants and Weis’s Patriots is more than just the system, it is also the personnel and how they are used.  Some comparisons: Kevin Faulk/Dave Meggett  = both were effective third down backs, incredible receivers out of the backfield and big play kick returners. Otis Anderson, Joe Morris/Patriot running backs  =  both teams had a stable of running backs, large and powerful and the running game was the foundation of the offense. Getting ten yards for a first down was the goal instead of eyeing the end zone on every possession.  The idea was ball control, using the clock against the other team; individual stats and glory be damned.  Whoever was the starting back was irrelevant as long as the system was employed and the back was healthy. Mark Bavaro/Coates, Dan Graham, Watson  = Many have wondered why we have spent numerous high picks on tight ends but no other position does more both in run blocking, receiving, creating third down and end zone mismatches than the tightend. Phil McConkey/Troy Brown, Wes Welker = While all the other receivers were all purpose guys who could burn you on every down, McConkey was the epitome of the small guy with lateral quickness and a heap of toughness over the middle.  He was a third down machine for the Giants and so are/were Brown and Welker. There are a lot more similarities like offensive linemen that were versatile enough to play across the line and the 3/4 defense Belichick employed as the defensive coordinator of the Giants, but the offensive side of the system is what's in disarray with our current Patriots and has cost us at least one super bowl. For more information check out this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_England_Patriots_strategy#Erhardt_-_Perkins_Offensive_System  
    Posted by wozzy[/QUOTE]
    Thank U W....a voice of reason sailing on a ship of fools!!!
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: 2nd half collapses, Charlie Weis, Maroney bashers and more...

    In Response to Re: 2nd half collapses, Charlie Weis, Maroney bashers and more...:
    [QUOTE]Thanks wozzy, nice post.  So what would you say we should do to fix the team's second half woes this season?
    Posted by themightypatriotz[/QUOTE]

    Unfortunately we either need to hire back Weis or another guy from that system like Chan Gailey, or hope and pray that O'Brien can expand his cliff notes version of the system and be consistant.  In short I wish i knew..?
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from themightypatriotz. Show themightypatriotz's posts

    Re: 2nd half collapses, Charlie Weis, Maroney bashers and more...

    So then the problem is the coaching and the playcalling.  A few times this year (Denver, Indy), they would line up in run-heavy formations early in the 4th, pound it for a few first downs, and then out of nowhere go back to the shotgun spread.  If they've been running the ball successfully, why don't they keep lining up in a formation where there is an equal threat of run or pass?

    Do you think Brady has some lingering knee issue that is hurting his mechanics when he drops back to pass, so they are keeping him in the shotgun?
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: 2nd half collapses, Charlie Weis, Maroney bashers and more...

    I think they are just calling plays from the playbook rather than adhering to the overall philosophy of the system.  The formations in and of themselves are not wrong but their use has been arbitrary and without form. 

    Experience can't be taught except though mistakes and time, Charlie Weis and others like him get plays out in time so we don't get delay of game penalties, they use the clock wisely and use our timeouts sparingly and efficiently.  Moreover he knows the system inside and out so that the array of plays at his disposal are vast and consciously or not he made an effort to mix up passes and runs at a 50/50 clip. 

    Situational play calling like third and short/long was practiced often in the week leading up to the game and at times I'm sure it still is but Charlie had head coaching abilities long before he was handed the reigns to Notre Dame; we haven't filled that void on the PAT's since he left.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from shenanigan. Show shenanigan's posts

    Re: 2nd half collapses, Charlie Weis, Maroney bashers and more...

    I don't know why you would have Belichick use a Parcells model for our offense when Parcells has 1 SB and a lower win% than Belichick.  Parcells team was famous for it's defense which was run by Belichick.

    The Pass to run, run to pass theories are nonsense.  Offenses play to the strength of thier players and the weekness of thier opponnents whether pass or run doesn't matter.  The 03 Pats won the SB with one of the lowest yards per carry average (3.4) for a SB winner while the 04 Pats had a very good running game.

    The main difference between the offense since 07 and the offense in SB years is Moss and Welker.  The main problem with the pats in recent years is a poor pass defense.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from boomerst3. Show boomerst3's posts

    Re: 2nd half collapses, Charlie Weis, Maroney bashers and more...

    Against Indy Belichick definitely changed his approach on offense and defense, which lead to the late collapse.  Maybe he should stay with what is working in a particular game.  He had Manning and the Colts looking dazed and confused..and then all of a sudden they had the whole short field to use and in less than 2 minutes each scored 2 quick TD's.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: 2nd half collapses, Charlie Weis, Maroney bashers and more...

    In Response to Re: 2nd half collapses, Charlie Weis, Maroney bashers and more...:
    [QUOTE]I don't know why you would have Belichick use a Parcells model for our offense when Parcells has 1 SB and a lower win% than Belichick.  Parcells team was famous for it's defense which was run by Belichick. The Pass to run, run to pass theories are nonsense.  The main problem with the pats in recent years is a poor pass defense.
    Posted by shenanigan[/QUOTE]

    Parcells never won a championship or even had a 500. record without Bill Belichick, this much is true.  What is also true is that Bill Belichick has never won a championship without Charlie Weis, in fact neither has Bill Parcells for that matter...  but you would have us believe that him missing from the equation is irrelevant.

    Refute that if you can..?
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: 2nd half collapses, Charlie Weis, Maroney bashers and more...

    In Response to Re: 2nd half collapses, Charlie Weis, Maroney bashers and more...:
    [QUOTE]Against Indy Belichick definitely changed his approach on offense and defense, which lead to the late collapse.  Maybe he should stay with what is working in a particular game.  He had Manning and the Colts looking dazed and confused..and then all of a sudden they had the whole short field to use and in less than 2 minutes each scored 2 quick TD's.
    Posted by boomerst3[/QUOTE]

    Maybe it was the fact that Manning and the Colts adjusted to our defense and then started scoring on us at will. There is a game within the game and the Colts started figuring out what we were doing to win that game. We needed to score more against one of the better Qbs in NFL history,or at least run the clock, our offense could not stay on the field when we had to. I think Wozzy outlines the reasons why that is in his previous posts. We have the players we just don't have a consistent game plan.

    How many successful coaches in NFL history have lost both there coordinators TWICE in 4 years and stayed at the top of the league???
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from shenanigan. Show shenanigan's posts

    Re: 2nd half collapses, Charlie Weis, Maroney bashers and more...

    In Response to Re: 2nd half collapses, Charlie Weis, Maroney bashers and more...:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2nd half collapses, Charlie Weis, Maroney bashers and more... : Parcells never won a championship or even had a 500. record without Bill Belichick, this much is true.  What is also true is that Bill Belichick has never won a championship without Charlie Weis, in fact neither has Bill Parcells for that matter...  but you would have us believe that him missing from the equation is irrelevant. Refute that if you can..?
    Posted by wozzy[/QUOTE]
    Look, I like Weis and I wouldn't mind seeing him get worked back into the Pats. I just disagree with your overall idea that the problem with the Pats is offensive philosophy.  I don't believe the offense is the problem, but they do have some problems. 

    I think It is an execution issue, the players line up and they try to execute on the best matchups.  Could be Moss one on one or it could be making a hole for maroney to run in.  I'm not sure that Weis would change much about how the Pats ran thier offense as far as types of plays.  Maybe he would be able to get them better prepared in practice so they could execute better.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: 2nd half collapses, Charlie Weis, Maroney bashers and more...

    In Response to Re: 2nd half collapses, Charlie Weis, Maroney bashers and more...:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2nd half collapses, Charlie Weis, Maroney bashers and more... : How many successful coaches in NFL history have lost both there coordinators TWICE in 4 years and stayed at the top of the league???
    Posted by TrueChamp[/QUOTE]

    Amen...  our talent is undoubtedly the most poached in the league, unfortunately for so many other teams they may not run our systems nor have the required personnel to do so.  Notice how many teams copy cat what the Pat's are doing year after year... there's always a bulls eye on our back regardless of our record.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: 2nd half collapses, Charlie Weis, Maroney bashers and more...

    In Response to Re: 2nd half collapses, Charlie Weis, Maroney bashers and more...:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 2nd half collapses, Charlie Weis, Maroney bashers and more... : I just disagree with your overall idea that the problem with the Pats is offensive philosophy.  I think It is an execution issue, the players line up and they try to execute on the best matchups.  Could be Moss one on one or it could be making a hole for maroney to run in.  I'm not sure that Weis would change much about how the Pats ran thier offense as far as types of plays.  Maybe he would be able to get them better prepared in practice so they could execute better.
    Posted by shenanigan[/QUOTE]

    I think he would run higher percentage plays for converting first downs and would control the time of possession, this would allow our defense to stay fresh and attacking instead of back on their heels exhausted by the 4th quarter.  It also allow our offensive linemen to attack rather than falling back in pass protection down after down.  I believe would be vastly superior with Weis back...
     

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