2nd Half Collapses

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from stillgridlocked. Show stillgridlocked's posts

    2nd Half Collapses

    IMO this has been the story for this team for years now. They cannot play hard all game long at least not against decent teams.

    They played smashmouth football Sunday for 30 minutes and led 13 to 7.  Then they went to sleep and were out scored by 21 points in the 2nd half 14 of those points were in the 4th quarter.

    No killer instinct at all with the Pats. 

    They were fired up for the 4th quarter against the 49ers but they had played so bad the 1st 3 quarters that it didn't matter.

    Does Belichick put them to sleep at halftime?

    3 out of their 4 regular season losses had them ahead at halftime and losing in the 2nd half the exception being San Fran. This playoff loss makes 4 out of 5 losses altogether came with a 1st half lead and being outplayed in the 2nd half.

    I'm probably wrong, I don't have a great football mind which is why I come hear to read the posts because there are some really good football minds here.  I'm just throwing this out to see what comes back.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from coolade2. Show coolade2's posts

    Re: 2nd Half Collapses

    Mental fatigue... Maybe.  The way this game went, it just slipped away(through welkers hands) with one mistake after another against a ruthless determined unforgiving opponent.

      Look at ravens for a second... They played the priverbial perfect game against the proverbial underachievers. it was like the perfect set up and pats fell into it once again.  makes me sick but there it is.

     

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: 2nd Half Collapses

    As soon as they lost Talib, the game began to turn.  It has nothing to do with a "finesse" scheme or a lack of mental toughness.  It's all about having to defend legitimate NFL receivers with special teamers like Arrington and Cole. 

    The other dirty little secret is that, without Gronk, the receiving targets are severely limited.  How, as a passing team, do you go into a playoff game with the following active TEs and WRs?

    • Branch
    • Lloyd
    • Welker
    • Hernandez
    • Fells
    • Hoomanawanui

    Sorry, but there are only six guys on that list, three of whom are back-ups---and the three starting quality guys are all very limited in what they can do.  You can add the backs, Vereen, Woodhead, Ridley, Bolden, to the list of potential receiving targets if you like, but it's still a very thin and limited group for a team that relies so heavily on passing and has Tom Brady as it's principal offensive weapon. 

     

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: 2nd Half Collapses

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    As soon as they lost Talib, the game began to turn.  It has nothing to do with a "finesse" scheme or a lack of mental toughness.  It's all about having to defend legitimate NFL receivers with special teamers like Arrington and Cole. 

    The other dirty little secret is that, without Gronk, the receiving targets are severely limited.  How, as a passing team, do you go into a playoff game with the following active TEs and WRs?

    • Branch
    • Lloyd
    • Welker
    • Hernandez
    • Fells
    • Hoomanawanui

    Sorry, but there are only six guys on that list, three of whom are back-ups---and the three starting quality guys are all very limited in what they can do.  You can add the backs, Vereen, Woodhead, Ridley, Bolden, to the list of potential receiving targets if you like, but it's still a very thin and limited group for a team that relies so heavily on passing and has Tom Brady as it's principal offensive weapon. 

     



    Pro - you can't have starting quality guys at every position. 2 starting caliber TE's and 2 starting caliber WR's is more then most teams have. I wish we had a better 3rd WR option but you can't load the bench with starters it's just not feasible. Now I don't think Fells is good depth at all nether is Branch (as a 3rd option). I'd like them to find a more stable 3rd WR option and if you replace Ballard with Fells and resign Hooman as the 4th TE run blocking specialist then that's a pretty solid core. What they don't have though is a WR that will fight for a ball. As much as I love Welker if I had to chose someone (contract in mind) to replace from that list it would be Welker for a larger possession WR who can work all 3 tiers of the field. I only say Welker because of the contract but it is what it is and sometimes you have to take a hit to move forward

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: 2nd Half Collapses

    It's not just "starting calibre" it's also the mix of players and the number who are involved in the passing game.  Once again, we have no receivers who can run a post route!  I don't think of the Ravens as a great passing team, but Flacco on 36 passes was able to target nine guys:

    • Boldin
    • Pitta 
    • Smith
    • Rice
    • Leach
    • Pierce
    • Jones
    • Dickson
    • Doss

     Brady threw 54 passes to just six:

    • Hernandez
    • Welker
    • Lloyd
    • Vereen
    • Branch
    • Woodhead

    You can't have multiple top-rate starters everywhere, but if you're going to rely on your passing game for offense, you should have more than three active wide receivers, one of whom (Branch) is past his prime and was cut multiple times during the year, one of whom is a tiny slot guy, and one of whom can apparently only run one route. 

     
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  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Re: 2nd Half Collapses

    How about let's not engage in revisionist history here. I know you all want to lionize the 2001-'04 'dynasty' group led by its vaunted, clutch defense, but they had the exact same issues closing out teams and they were bailed out by the offense (and placekicker) quite often.  Three notable examples:

    In SB vs. Rams, ahead 17-3 after three quarters only to blow the lead and need last minute drive to win.

    SB vs. Carolina, ahead 21-10 early in 4th quarter, only to see the great Jake Delhomme (?) lead the Panthers to three 4th quarter TDs and the lead.

    SB vs. Philly, almost incomprehensibly allowed a vomiting Donovan McNabb and an inept coach Andy Reid to make a nailbiter out of a comfortable ten point lead. 

     

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from coolade2. Show coolade2's posts

    Re: 2nd Half Collapses

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

    How about let's not engage in revisionist history here. I know you all want to lionize the 2001-'04 'dynasty' group led by its vaunted, clutch defense, but they had the exact same issues closing out teams and they were bailed out by the offense (and placekicker) quite often.  

    In SB vs. Rams, ahead 17-3 after three quarters only to blow the lead and need last minute drive to win.

    SB vs. Carolina, ahead 21-10 early in 4th quarter, only to see the great Jake Delhomme (?) lead the Panthers to three 4th quarter TDs and the lead

    SB vs. Philly, almost incomprehensibly allowed a vomiting Donovan McNabb and an inept coach Andy Reid to make a nailbiter out of a comfortable ten point lead. 




    So...  Same head coach, same QB, similar D performance.  What's the difference between the winning postseasons 01-04 (10-0) and losing 05-12 (7-7) ?

    The obvious difference is offense was run by experienced OC Charlie Weis.  He knew what plays Tommy and co. could run and be successful.  Branch and brown knew how to get open.  Threw to Pass and Faulk A LOT out of the backfield.

    Its called a successful offensive game plan that WORKS at the critical times of the game.  PAts don't have that any more. Other teams have figured BB out.  They know his plays now.  Mcd not creative enough. Sad.  I had hope that mcd could do it.  My guess is BB has choked off any creative changes since this game looked a lot like last year, trying to force the ball through the air rather than a healthier mix.

     It was a tough night to throw...  Runs and short passes to backs should have been more prevalent as well as more reverses...

     
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  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: 2nd Half Collapses

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    It's not just "starting calibre" it's also the mix of players and the number who are involved in the passing game.  Once again, we have no receivers who can run a post route!  I don't think of the Ravens as a great passing team, but Flacco on 36 passes was able to target nine guys:

    • Boldin
    • Pitta 
    • Smith
    • Rice
    • Leach
    • Pierce
    • Jones
    • Dickson
    • Doss

     Brady threw 54 passes to just six:

    • Hernandez
    • Welker
    • Lloyd
    • Vereen
    • Branch
    • Woodhead

    You can't have multiple top-rate starters everywhere, but if you're going to rely on your passing game for offense, you should have more than three active wide receivers, one of whom (Branch) is past his prime and was cut multiple times during the year, one of whom is a tiny slot guy, and one of whom can apparently only run one route. 



    I agree except they didn't start the season like how they ended it. When you add in Gronk it makes a huge difference, more then you give it credit for. You also forgot about Edelman going into the season. If Edelman stayed healthy he's a much better option then Branch but Branch was the only option that late into the season. Gronk, Hern, Welker, Lloyd, Vereen, Woodhead, Edelman is a better deeper receiving core then most teams have. Now you take away Gronk and Edelman and it's thin but that's how it happens in the NFL. There are only so many slots to fill a roster and if a couple of injures happen you are going to get screwed. Now if you want to say they should of had a better TE receiving options then Fells (who I think gave less then Hooman this year) then I agree and that they should have had a better 4th WR option then I agree but really you are talking the 4th WR, who are you going to get to fill that role? What I see as being more important is we have practicully the same types of players on the roster over and over again. Other then Gronk there was no one to fight for a ball when the other teams narrows the window for Brady to throw. But hindsight after injures at the end of the year is unjust when at the stat of the year the receiving core looked deep.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from ccsjl. Show ccsjl's posts

    Re: 2nd Half Collapses

    Winning seasons Brady was clutch - like Seattle game this year, down by 1 point with 90 secs to go, Brady would get team to FG range for win...no more. Secondly, the Pats had the likes of Bobby Hamilton, Richard Seymour and Willie McGinest to make a key sack or at least get the opposing QB running for his life on 3rd and longs in the 4th quarter to prevent the comebacks!

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: 2nd Half Collapses

    So the number one offense in the league isn't good enough?  All those field goals should have been touchdowns, but when we got down on th goalline the Ravens got tough and we got tricky. Gronk would have helped.  But being stronger and meaner would have helped more. This team needs to get tougher... period.  Maybe the sting of losing will give them that?

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Re: 2nd Half Collapses

    In response to ccsjl's comment:

    Winning seasons Brady was clutch - like Seattle game this year, down by 1 point with 90 secs to go, Brady would get team to FG range for win...no more. Secondly, the Pats had the likes of Bobby Hamilton, Richard Seymour and Willie McGinest to make a key sack or at least get the opposing QB running for his life on 3rd and longs in the 4th quarter to prevent the comebacks!



    Except they didn't prevent the comebacks by the Rams or by Carolina. Brady and the offense just outscored them. Barely held on against Philly.

    Brady also gave them the lead in 2007 when they still had all the defensive heroes of yore, and they couldn't hold it. 

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from GEAUX-TIGRES. Show GEAUX-TIGRES's posts

    Re: 2nd Half Collapses

    Give credit to JH on that one. Man press lock down coverage first half, then outsmarts himself playing zone the second half. If you know TB, I don't have to explain any further. He shreads zones.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Re: 2nd Half Collapses

    And what about 2006, that was the clutch old defense that let Manning and the Colts make a monumental comeback in the CG. Wasn't it? Oh wait, they were sick and it was hot in the dome, and they pumped in loud noise and the referees made bad calls and....

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from JimfromFlorida. Show JimfromFlorida's posts

    Re: 2nd Half Collapses

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    It's not just "starting calibre" it's also the mix of players and the number who are involved in the passing game.  Once again, we have no receivers who can run a post route!  I don't think of the Ravens as a great passing team, but Flacco on 36 passes was able to target nine guys:

    • Boldin
    • Pitta 
    • Smith
    • Rice
    • Leach
    • Pierce
    • Jones
    • Dickson
    • Doss

     Brady threw 54 passes to just six:

    • Hernandez
    • Welker
    • Lloyd
    • Vereen
    • Branch
    • Woodhead

    You can't have multiple top-rate starters everywhere, but if you're going to rely on your passing game for offense, you should have more than three active wide receivers, one of whom (Branch) is past his prime and was cut multiple times during the year, one of whom is a tiny slot guy, and one of whom can apparently only run one route. 



    You only used completed passes in your  list for the Pats and according to the stats Doss and Dickson had no receptions. The 21 comp. for Flacco went to 7 guys.

    So you tried to make stats work for you but you got them all wrong. If you use stats don't get caught fudging them to make your case.

    Then with all your complaining what could have n been done to make the receiving better? 

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from coolade2. Show coolade2's posts

    Re: 2nd Half Collapses

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    It's not just "starting calibre" it's also the mix of players and the number who are involved in the passing game.  Once again, we have no receivers who can run a post route!  I don't think of the Ravens as a great passing team, but Flacco on 36 passes was able to target nine guys:

    • Boldin
    • Pitta 
    • Smith
    • Rice
    • Leach
    • Pierce
    • Jones
    • Dickson
    • Doss

     Brady threw 54 passes to just six:

    • Hernandez
    • Welker
    • Lloyd
    • Vereen
    • Branch
    • Woodhead

    You can't have multiple top-rate starters everywhere, but if you're going to rely on your passing game for offense, you should have more than three active wide receivers, one of whom (Branch) is past his prime and was cut multiple times during the year, one of whom is a tiny slot guy, and one of whom can apparently only run one route. 



    Excellent post that points to the designed variety built into the offense.  WHERE THE F is that..?

    Sorry about the caps but this isn't rocket science.  This was a staple of Brady's early years.  Now they force it or he locks on a receiver.  ... no attempted play action to Huey or fells.  ( always works).  1 reverse.  Once again , patriots lose with a limited failed offensive game plan/ play calls.  SAD.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from TripleOG. Show TripleOG's posts

    Re: 2nd Half Collapses

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    It's not just "starting calibre" it's also the mix of players and the number who are involved in the passing game.  Once again, we have no receivers who can run a post route!  I don't think of the Ravens as a great passing team, but Flacco on 36 passes was able to target nine guys:

    • Boldin
    • Pitta 
    • Smith
    • Rice
    • Leach
    • Pierce
    • Jones
    • Dickson
    • Doss

     Brady threw 54 passes to just six:

    • Hernandez
    • Welker
    • Lloyd
    • Vereen
    • Branch
    • Woodhead

    You can't have multiple top-rate starters everywhere, but if you're going to rely on your passing game for offense, you should have more than three active wide receivers, one of whom (Branch) is past his prime and was cut multiple times during the year, one of whom is a tiny slot guy, and one of whom can apparently only run one route. 




     

    I agree with this. Branch is a weapon still??  LOL and LLoyd is a # 2, not a # 1. Wes takes a lot of energy just to get open and doesnt do much after the catch. hernandez was doubled most game and there it is...

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: 2nd Half Collapses

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    As soon as they lost Talib, the game began to turn.  It has nothing to do with a "finesse" scheme or a lack of mental toughness.  It's all about having to defend legitimate NFL receivers with special teamers like Arrington and Cole. 

    The other dirty little secret is that, without Gronk, the receiving targets are severely limited.  How, as a passing team, do you go into a playoff game with the following active TEs and WRs?

    • Branch
    • Lloyd
    • Welker
    • Hernandez
    • Fells
    • Hoomanawanui

    Sorry, but there are only six guys on that list, three of whom are back-ups---and the three starting quality guys are all very limited in what they can do.  You can add the backs, Vereen, Woodhead, Ridley, Bolden, to the list of potential receiving targets if you like, but it's still a very thin and limited group for a team that relies so heavily on passing and has Tom Brady as it's principal offensive weapon. 

     


    My goodness, suddenly because of the loss of one, the patriots strength is now their weakness?  I am sorry.  I don't buy it. 

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: 2nd Half Collapses

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    It's not just "starting calibre" it's also the mix of players and the number who are involved in the passing game.  Once again, we have no receivers who can run a post route!  I don't think of the Ravens as a great passing team, but Flacco on 36 passes was able to target nine guys:

    • Boldin
    • Pitta 
    • Smith
    • Rice
    • Leach
    • Pierce
    • Jones
    • Dickson
    • Doss

     Brady threw 54 passes to just six:

    • Hernandez
    • Welker
    • Lloyd
    • Vereen
    • Branch
    • Woodhead

    You can't have multiple top-rate starters everywhere, but if you're going to rely on your passing game for offense, you should have more than three active wide receivers, one of whom (Branch) is past his prime and was cut multiple times during the year, one of whom is a tiny slot guy, and one of whom can apparently only run one route. 



    With all due respect, 9 guys are not available to receive a pass on any given play. 

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from glenr. Show glenr's posts

    Re: 2nd Half Collapses

    In response to wozzy's comment:

    So the number one offense in the league isn't good enough?  All those field goals should have been touchdowns, but when we got down on th goalline the Ravens got tough and we got tricky. Gronk would have helped.  But being stronger and meaner would have helped more. This team needs to get tougher... period.  Maybe the sting of losing will give them that?




    The number 1 offense in the league scored a whopping 3 points after the first quarter. Stats are meaningless from 1 game to the next.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: 2nd Half Collapses

    In response to JimfromFlorida's comment:

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    It's not just "starting calibre" it's also the mix of players and the number who are involved in the passing game.  Once again, we have no receivers who can run a post route!  I don't think of the Ravens as a great passing team, but Flacco on 36 passes was able to target nine guys:

    • Boldin
    • Pitta 
    • Smith
    • Rice
    • Leach
    • Pierce
    • Jones
    • Dickson
    • Doss

     Brady threw 54 passes to just six:

    • Hernandez
    • Welker
    • Lloyd
    • Vereen
    • Branch
    • Woodhead

    You can't have multiple top-rate starters everywhere, but if you're going to rely on your passing game for offense, you should have more than three active wide receivers, one of whom (Branch) is past his prime and was cut multiple times during the year, one of whom is a tiny slot guy, and one of whom can apparently only run one route. 

     



    You only used completed passes in your  list for the Pats and according to the stats Doss and Dickson had no receptions. The 21 comp. for Flacco went to 7 guys.

     

    So you tried to make stats work for you but you got them all wrong. If you use stats don't get caught fudging them to make your case.

    Then with all your complaining what could have n been done to make the receiving better? 




    I said targeted, not caught.  And my stats are as accurate as the official NFL gamebook, which is where they came from.  If you're gonna criticize at least take the time to understand what I said.

     

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from ccsjl. Show ccsjl's posts

    Re: 2nd Half Collapses

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

    In response to ccsjl's comment:

     

    Winning seasons Brady was clutch - like Seattle game this year, down by 1 point with 90 secs to go, Brady would get team to FG range for win...no more. Secondly, the Pats had the likes of Bobby Hamilton, Richard Seymour and Willie McGinest to make a key sack or at least get the opposing QB running for his life on 3rd and longs in the 4th quarter to prevent the comebacks!

     



    Except they didn't prevent the comebacks by the Rams or by Carolina. Brady and the offense just outscored them. Barely held on against Philly.

     

    Brady also gave them the lead in 2007 when they still had all the defensive heroes of yore, and they couldn't hold it. 




    Really? Might want to watch SB 36 again...as I recall the score was 17-17 Rams with ball and Willie MaC sacks Warner on a third down so they punt ball to Pats with under 2 mins to play....Carolina comeback was due to Brady - up 21-10 and running ball down Carolinas throat, Brady has to throw a pick in the endzone, as opposed to keep running and getting a sealing TD or at least a FG...

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: 2nd Half Collapses

    In response to PatsEng's comment:

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    It's not just "starting calibre" it's also the mix of players and the number who are involved in the passing game.  Once again, we have no receivers who can run a post route!  I don't think of the Ravens as a great passing team, but Flacco on 36 passes was able to target nine guys:

    • Boldin
    • Pitta 
    • Smith
    • Rice
    • Leach
    • Pierce
    • Jones
    • Dickson
    • Doss

     Brady threw 54 passes to just six:

    • Hernandez
    • Welker
    • Lloyd
    • Vereen
    • Branch
    • Woodhead

    You can't have multiple top-rate starters everywhere, but if you're going to rely on your passing game for offense, you should have more than three active wide receivers, one of whom (Branch) is past his prime and was cut multiple times during the year, one of whom is a tiny slot guy, and one of whom can apparently only run one route. 

     



    I agree except they didn't start the season like how they ended it. When you add in Gronk it makes a huge difference, more then you give it credit for. You also forgot about Edelman going into the season. If Edelman stayed healthy he's a much better option then Branch but Branch was the only option that late into the season. Gronk, Hern, Welker, Lloyd, Vereen, Woodhead, Edelman is a better deeper receiving core then most teams have. Now you take away Gronk and Edelman and it's thin but that's how it happens in the NFL. There are only so many slots to fill a roster and if a couple of injures happen you are going to get screwed. Now if you want to say they should of had a better TE receiving options then Fells (who I think gave less then Hooman this year) then I agree and that they should have had a better 4th WR option then I agree but really you are talking the 4th WR, who are you going to get to fill that role? What I see as being more important is we have practicully the same types of players on the roster over and over again. Other then Gronk there was no one to fight for a ball when the other teams narrows the window for Brady to throw. But hindsight after injures at the end of the year is unjust when at the stat of the year the receiving core looked deep.

     




    Eng, I have been saying all along that Gronk would have made a huge difference.  I said that last year, too, after the Super Bowl, where his absence was, in my opinion, a huge problem.

    My problem is Gronk is one guy and when he's out, the offense really suffers.  We need more diversity in our receivers so losing one of them doesn't limit the offense so much.

    And whatever Edelman might bring to the offense, he's another guy who works short routes more than long ones and doesn't have size.  We need at least one more receiver who is a serious downfield threat with either the size or the speed (or both) to force safeties to think about what's happening in the deep middle of the field.

     

     

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from JimfromFlorida. Show JimfromFlorida's posts

    Re: 2nd Half Collapses

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    In response to JimfromFlorida's comment:

     

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    It's not just "starting calibre" it's also the mix of players and the number who are involved in the passing game.  Once again, we have no receivers who can run a post route!  I don't think of the Ravens as a great passing team, but Flacco on 36 passes was able to target nine guys:

    • Boldin
    • Pitta 
    • Smith
    • Rice
    • Leach
    • Pierce
    • Jones
    • Dickson
    • Doss

     Brady threw 54 passes to just six:

    • Hernandez
    • Welker
    • Lloyd
    • Vereen
    • Branch
    • Woodhead

    You can't have multiple top-rate starters everywhere, but if you're going to rely on your passing game for offense, you should have more than three active wide receivers, one of whom (Branch) is past his prime and was cut multiple times during the year, one of whom is a tiny slot guy, and one of whom can apparently only run one route. 

     



    You only used completed passes in your  list for the Pats and according to the stats Doss and Dickson had no receptions. The 21 comp. for Flacco went to 7 guys.

     

    So you tried to make stats work for you but you got them all wrong. If you use stats don't get caught fudging them to make your case.

    Then with all your complaining what could have n been done to make the receiving better? 

     




    I said targeted, not caught.  And my stats are as accurate as the official NFL gamebook, which is where they came from.  If you're gonna criticize at least take the time to understand what I said.

     

     



    So the other passes not caught by the pats none went to any other players like Vereen,  Ridley, and Hoomanxxxxx? You still used only caught by pats and targeted for Ravens. Stats are somewhat accurate not totally.

     
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