3-4 defense question

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from N464Mex-N460A. Show N464Mex-N460A's posts

    3-4 defense question

    I read on the patriots website that the steelers run more of a single gap 3-4 which allows the OLBs to be smaller...  Could someone explain the different 3-4 defenses teams run with teams as examples. What other teams runs the pats type of 3-4
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from m1021us. Show m1021us's posts

    Re: 3-4 defense question

    The Pats run a base 3-4, but it is more of a Hybrid that changes schemes based on the other team's offense....it could be a 3-4 then change to a 4-3, then to a Nickle, etc, etc.....
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from themightypatriotz. Show themightypatriotz's posts

    Re: 3-4 defense question

    I think we're the only ones that 2-gap, right?  Parcell's cowboys used to, but not after whatshisname took over.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from pyegian. Show pyegian's posts

    Re: 3-4 defense question

    While there may be some differences between 3-4 defenses in terms of gap responsibilities, I think the major differences are in the style of play within that gap system.  For example, the Patriots prefer to play with a big, physical front seven that may not have the speed or range of some of the Steelers' players, but are fundamentally sound and have the strength to hold the point of attack and play "team" defense.  

    The Steelers are more aggressive, with more exotic blitz packages, and may favor quickness and overall range over physicality.  That's not to say that the Patriots don't have quick players, and that the Steelers don't have physical players.

    In terms of the gap responsibilities, I think there are some minor differences between different 3-4 teams, especially with the defensive ends.  I'm not completely familiar with all of the specifics of the teams that run a 3-4, but I know that even within the 2-gap system, there are some minor differences in responsibility.  The Patriots want their ends to hold the point of attack and free up space for the linebackers.  The Cowboys, Dolphins, etc. also play 2-gap (I believe...correct me if I'm wrong) but allow more penetration and upfield movement from that spot.  

    Again, that's not to say that there isn't overlap.  Seymour was so dominant in his prime that he could eat up 2-3 blockers and still find a way to disrupt the backfield in the same play.  

    I'm no expert but that's my take from my limited knowledge of the 3-4 defense.
     
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    Re: 3-4 defense question

    In Response to Re: 3-4 defense question:
    While there may be some differences between 3-4 defenses in terms of gap responsibilities, I think the major differences are in the style of play within that gap system.  For example, the Patriots prefer to play with a big, physical front seven that may not have the speed or range of some of the Steelers' players, but are fundamentally sound and have the strength to hold the point of attack and play "team" defense.   The Steelers are more aggressive, with more exotic blitz packages, and may favor quickness and overall range over physicality.  That's not to say that the Patriots don't have quick players, and that the Steelers don't have physical players. In terms of the gap responsibilities, I think there are some minor differences between different 3-4 teams, especially with the defensive ends.  I'm not completely familiar with all of the specifics of the teams that run a 3-4, but I know that even within the 2-gap system, there are some minor differences in responsibility.  The Patriots want their ends to hold the point of attack and free up space for the linebackers.  The Cowboys, Dolphins, etc. also play 2-gap (I believe...correct me if I'm wrong) but allow more penetration and upfield movement from that spot.   Again, that's not to say that there isn't overlap.  Seymour was so dominant in his prime that he could eat up 2-3 blockers and still find a way to disrupt the backfield in the same play.   I'm no expert but that's my take from my limited knowledge of the 3-4 defense.
    Posted by pyegian


    The Boys play a 1 gap system (99% certain, thats why tank johnson could play there relatively well), other than them all parcells people play two gap schemes. 
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from artielang. Show artielang's posts

    Re: 3-4 defense question

    in the traditional 3-4 that parcells and BB have run for years, the 3 down lineman play with their "head up" on the offensive lineman. meaning they line up right in front of the player and attempt to hold their ground as the play starts, then diagnose the play. if its a running play, they first have to keep the guards and center from getting out and blocking the ILB's. then they have to protect the holes on either side of the lineman they are facing. thats why the 3-4 is referred to as a "2-gap" system, because they are responsible for both running lanes on either shoulder of the guy blocking them. and thats why the prototypical 3-4 DE has to be big and have long arms. so they either meet the ball carrier in the hole or they plug the hole and allow the LB to make the play. on passing plays the d lineman still have to stay disciplined in their gap responsibilities to protect against dump off passes or qb sneaks, so they generally bull rush the lineman back to collapse the pocket, and hold up those long arms to disrupt the qb's vision and passing lanes. thats why you will never see a 3-4 DE doing the dwight freeney type of spin moves; a 4-3 DE plays on the shoulder of the O lineman because he only covers one gap. the 3-4 DE plays on the body so they can get to either side.

    in the 3-4 the outside linebackers also cover two gaps, the inside and outside of the tackles. thats why they have to be big and strong enough to "ride" a left or right tackle along the line of scrimmage on an outside run and not get pushed back in order to prevent running room for the ball handler. this is what's known as "setting the edge". watch tapes of vrabel in his prime...he was a master at that. on passing downs one of the OLB's becomes the primary pass rusher and the other drops into coverage on a TE or RB (unless he is blitzing). the pass rusher in the patriots system is free to rush any gap on third down, this player is known as the "elephant". that was willie mcginest at his finest. 

    the steelers 3-4 is the same basic 2 gap philosophy, however they play a much more aggressive style with their linebackers and safeties. they blitz one or two extra players on almost every down so it essentially reduces the gap responsibilities. so its the same basic "read and react" "2 gap defense" that is designed for the linebackers to make the plays. but the philosophy of the pats is to be less aggressive and prevent big plays, while the steelers are an attack defense that will concede a big play here and there. 

    the bottom line is that both versions have proven to win super bowls. the key is to have the right players.   
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: 3-4 defense question

    Nice discussion of the BB 2-gap system.  Dumbing it down (helpful for guys like me) it boils down to the 3 D-linemen taking up blockers allowing the 4 L/Bs to make plays.  Of course, there are exceptions and variations but it pretty much boils down to that.  That's why you rarely see a BB D-lineman with big sack numbers or a particularly high number of tackles of any kind.  Again, there are exceptions. 

    My 2 cents.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from N464Mex-N460A. Show N464Mex-N460A's posts

    Re: 3-4 defense question

    why can the steelers OLBs be smaller?
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: 3-4 defense question

    In Response to Re: 3-4 defense question:
    why can the steelers OLBs be smaller?
    Posted by sirpinochle

    Honestly, I'm not sure the article you read on the Pats' website is fully accurate. James Harrison is small for an OLB (242 lbs), but Lamar Woodley is big--265 lbs. I'm not sure the Steelers' scheme calls for smaller OLBs--I just think that Harrison has proved he can play in the position despite his small size.  The Steelers are more of an attacking defense and I think they use Harrison more in an attacking role where speed and agility may be more important than size and power.  If his primary role is pass rushing, size isn't quite so important as long as he has the quick moves to get past big offensive tackles.  If he's holding the edge, though, against a big tackle size and power become more important.

    UPDATE--SOME ADDITIONAL EXPLANATION
    The Steelers do play more of a one-gap defense, where the objective of the defense is to get into the backfield and disrupt the play before it really gets started.  This style generally emphasizes speed more than power and allows OLBs to focus on rushing. It can be very disruptive, but it's also vulnerable to a big play. 

    The Pats prefer a more controlled two-gap defense which tries to contain the offense and gives up fewer big plays. In a system like this, the OLBs are going to read and react and often won't be rushing as much as trying to hold the edge and drive the play to the middle of the field. That does require more power, so size maybe becomes more important in the Pats' scheme than in the Steelers' scheme. Still, the Steelers philosophy (as described by both head coach Mike Tomlin and LB coach Keith Butler) is to draft "250 lb guys who can run." That's pretty much what the Pats are looking for too. 


     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: 3-4 defense question

    I thought all 34 teams had there lineman playing 2 gap, head up on the tackle or center, holding him up ready to make a play to the left or right and allowing the linebacker to play the gap on either side. I think the philosophy of the coordinator and the talent of the defense also have alot to say in determining how aggressive they will be. If you look at NY, they don't really have many great pass rushers, yet there coach plays a very blitz happy type of scheme. Pittsburgh has the luxury of having some productive pass rushers and so does Dallas. I think we play it conservitively, but I think if you don't have guys that are going to get there, you have to. I would like to see a little more blitzing out of this team and wonder if that is the reason the defensive coordinator wasn't brought back.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: 3-4 defense question

    In Response to Re: 3-4 defense question:
    I thought all 34 teams had there lineman playing 2 gap, head up on the tackle or center, holding him up ready to make a play to the left or right and allowing the linebacker to play the gap on either side. I think the philosophy of the coordinator and the talent of the defense also have alot to say in determining how aggressive they will be. If you look at NY, they don't really have many great pass rushers, yet there coach plays a very blitz happy type of scheme. Pittsburgh has the luxury of having some productive pass rushers and so does Dallas. I think we play it conservitively, but I think if you don't have guys that are going to get there, you have to. I would like to see a little more blitzing out of this team and wonder if that is the reason the defensive coordinator wasn't brought back.
    Posted by mthurl

    I think most 3-4 teams have the NT playing two-gap on most plays (or most first and second down plays), but they sometimes have other linemen shooting gaps rather than holding blockers. There's a lot of variety in schemes, and teams change up what they're doing from game to game and within games to confuse their opponents.  It's subtle stuff that most of us fans won't notice, but no team in the NFL will win if it does everything one way. 

    The Pats aren't a blitzing team.  The Jets do it because they have such good man-to-man cover guys in the secondary.  If the Pats tried to blitz a lot, I'm afraid the secondary would get burned even more than it does.  The Pats need to solve their pass rush problem without blitzing, I think.  They need to find four guys who can create pressure so they can leave seven guys back in coverage.  Rushing five or six will leave them very vulnerable to the big play because the cover guys aren't that good.  If Butler improves, however, and McCourty turns out to be a good man-to-man guy, then maybe more blitzing would work.  









     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from thejoshuatree28. Show thejoshuatree28's posts

    Re: 3-4 defense question

    In Response to Re: 3-4 defense question:
    In Response to Re: 3-4 defense question : I think most 3-4 teams have the NT playing two-gap on most plays (or most first and second down plays), but they sometimes have other linemen shooting gaps rather than holding blockers. There's a lot of variety in schemes, and teams change up what they're doing from game to game and within games to confuse their opponents.  It's subtle stuff that most of us fans won't notice, but no team in the NFL will win if it does everything one way.  The Pats aren't a blitzing team.  The Jets do it because they have such good man-to-man cover guys in the secondary.  If the Pats tried to blitz a lot, I'm afraid the secondary would get burned even more than it does.  The Pats need to solve their pass rush problem without blitzing, I think.  They need to find four guys who can create pressure so they can leave seven guys back in coverage.  Rushing five or six will leave them very vulnerable to the big play because the cover guys aren't that good.  If Butler improves, however, and McCourty turns out to be a good man-to-man guy, then maybe more blitzing would work.  
    Posted by prolate0spheroid
    The Pats don't play man to man coverage that much, pretty much never. McCourty wasn't great, good, but not great at man in college but he was very good in Zone, which coincidently the patriots play.

     
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