A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.

    Vince Wilfork 1st rd
    Albert Haynesworth 1st rd
    Shaun Ellis 1st rd
    Andre Carter 1st rd
    Jerod Mayo 1st rd
    Brandon Spikes 2nd rd
    Jermaine Cunningham 2nd rd
    Devin MCcouty 1st rd
    Patrick Chung 2nd rd
    Ras I dowling 2nd 2d

    When 10 of your possible 11 situational starters are 1st and 2nd rd draft picks it is hard to sell we have a lack of talent on this team. When I watch us play as many other fans have noticed we play a SOFT drop back defense. We all assume this is to prevent the "Big Play". Well not to state the obvious but IT ISN"T WORKING.

    Read a good article about our defense. Over the past 5 years they have averaged something like:

    200 pass yards against
    220
    230
    250 last year and...
    371 so far this year OMG.

    BRING THE F-ING EXTRA RUSHERS ALREADY.

    I know I know I am telling Bill Belichick how to coach blah blah blah. We are squandering Tom Brady's years in front of our eyes and if things dont' change with our offensive and defensive play calling soon, we will one day wake up and wonder W T FFFFF happened.

    Is it reasonable to question our current schemes on offense and defense? Or am I just venting too much at the end of a 48 hour binge drinking session?
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from JayShizzle45. Show JayShizzle45's posts

    Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.

    It is alarming and I will agree we are talented enough to do better than we have been.

    I am hoping its just the transition to a new scheme and guys are adjusting.  I dont think its the finished product, but I also dont think we are gonna be THAT much better when Big Al(if) comes back and when Chung returns.  I think as you said they need to get more agressive like in preseason. I know different teams call for different schemes, but we are just not getting there.  We are struggling in man to man and the pressure is minimal, and its because we do blitz at times, but they are old, stale blitzes that most Qb's can see coming. When was the last time you saw a double safety Blitz in the regular season?  For me, it was in 03', we sent Rodney and Wilson and it was effective.  Not every time, but mix in some blitzes, overloads, and if not go back to the stupid zones, cuz our man coverage is getting burnt right now.

    I think Big Al, Ellis, and Carter are not really 1st rd talents anymore as they are too old to dominate and Vince hasnt been that effective in this new scheme.  I really dont see it getting much better as Big Al is not the presence we thought to free up others. He is getting handled one on one.  I think by mid year, we go back to 3-4 when we get more players back from p.u.p.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.

    I think Bill is placing a premium on the playoffs now, no more runs at perfection. 

    Conservative use of personnel, saving the best for last.  He thinks he should have won this last game regardless of how many yards we gave up but it's the "one got away" attitude. One regular season game does not a season make.  Brace and Deadrick come back after game 6, if everyone else is healthy we'll have so much talent and depth we will make a run and peak at the right time.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmcintosh. Show andrewmcintosh's posts

    Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.

    Going into this season I genuinely felt that the overall talent on 'D' was greater than at any point since 2004, obviously that has not yet been born out by the results....but your general premise makes sense; it has to be frustrating for BB to put good players in position only to see them lose one on one matchups.  
     
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  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.


    What does that mean Russ?

    Look, i think TrueChamp has a legit point. We have assembled a lot of 1st/2nd round talent..sure some of it is older, but overall, they should be performing better than they are.

    I believe personally that it is scheme related. Playing predominantly man coverage in the secondary, while only rushing 3 or 4 isn't gonig to stop much. Go back to zone in the secondary, rush 5 or 6, mix it up with safety/corner blitzes, send Mayo and Fletcher more and overload at times. I don't think we are taking advantage of individual athletic ability, using the right schemes to capitalize on it, nor putting these guys in a position to be aggressive and dictate. Something's got to change.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from themightypatriotz. Show themightypatriotz's posts

    Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.

    In Response to Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.:
    [QUOTE]I think Bill is placing a premium on the playoffs now, no more runs at perfection.  Conservative use of personnel, saving the best for last.  He thinks he should have won this last game regardless of how many yards we gave up but it's the "one got away" attitude. One regular season game does not a season make.  Brace and Deadrick come back after game 6, if everyone else is healthy we'll have so much talent and depth we will make a run and peak at the right time.
    Posted by wozzy[/QUOTE]

    Spot on.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.

    In Response to Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.:
    [QUOTE]I think Bill is placing a premium on the playoffs now, no more runs at perfection.  Conservative use of personnel, saving the best for last.  He thinks he should have won this last game regardless of how many yards we gave up but it's the "one got away" attitude. One regular season game does not a season make.  Brace and Deadrick come back after game 6, if everyone else is healthy we'll have so much talent and depth we will make a run and peak at the right time.
    Posted by wozzy[/QUOTE]


    Wozzy, this makes sense but at the same time it is a gamble. Why wait to cash in on any D-line ability we may have? I am not saying your wrong in fact you probably nailed it as Mighty said, but the old 'what if' comes into play. What if we get down to the nitty gritty and when push comes to shove we really don't have the personnel to win the battle in the trenches. By week 12 it will be too late.

    Anyway I just hope Bill has an alternate plan because getting gashed by 370 yards a game will not help to build a defense's moral.

    And to those of you who play the, "Yeah but we win all the time" card get your head out of the sand so to speak. The team with the best QB possibly in NFL history needs to win like they did in the dynasty years, as in playoff time. Tom Brady's performance has only gotten better with age unlike the current coaching scheme. Just my humble opinion.
     
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  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.

    In Response to Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme. : 370 yards is like 270 yards 3 years ago. I am not saying it's great or even good, but it's not awful when you look at other QBs around the league. The new 300 is 400 yards passing. The scheme is a 4-3 scheme mized with 3-4.  I think he's had to use younger players on D. How many times are we going over this?  NE lost Samuel, Seymour, Vrabel, Harrison, Seau, Bruschi, etc, all within 2 years. When your scheming is diverse and complex, it's helpful, to you know have guys on hand who know what to do. Brady is the entire offense, so to speak, but they'll win more games with that 2010 post Moss philisophiscal/scheme shift, too.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

    How many times are we going to go over what? Perhaps you post so many times on this forum you don't remember who you do or do not agree with. In fact you probably have trouble convincing yourself of certain things.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.

    In Response to Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme. : I've never seen a BB D look lights out through 3 weeks. That's what I mean by it. It's almost as if some fans do the same thing every year and then never,, ever compliment the D when it does well. Look at last year:  D looks better and better as the year goes. Even in 2008 or 2009, as bad as those Ds were, they improved as the year went. And is it really news a BB D doesn't unload the playbook early on as opposed Do you feel they have started better than last year? I do. Sacks are up, hurries are up, turnovers are good/steady, and the Run D is top 10 to start the year. All of these facets are a better start to the season than last year or even in 2009. NE's D in 2009 gave up 24 points to Buffalo at home. To me, there is a clear better starting point than in recent years, minus the CB/S play as a unit so far.  Acutally, check that, our CBs started off poorly last year too. They always get better, they don't flatline or get worse.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

    I would say this year more than any other year you may have a point on starting slow, especially given the lockout. Lots of new faces, and this D needs time to sort it all out. Injuries have not helped at all either.

    I'm patient for sure. If the D can pick it up steadily over the next 10 games, I'm good with that, as long as we don't play ourselves out of playoff contention.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from amun. Show amun's posts

    Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.

        Loving wozzy right now. Every of the SB we have won. the pats got rolling last quater of the year and carried it through the playoffs. I can't recall a team limping to the playoffs and won the SB.

        Not that i can go into BB crystal ball. But this team could play 3-4 or 4-3 and bend. I feel like BB thinks they have 3-4 down to a science and they need to get comfortable 4-3. specially the DB, it's obvious the man coverage is killing them, they can only improve.

    I have a question. when your ahead 21 pts, aren't you suppose to let your line Tee off and send in extra men?
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.

    In Response to Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme. : Wozzy, this makes sense but at the same time it is a gamble. Why wait to cash in on any D-line ability we may have?
    Posted by TrueChamp[/QUOTE]

    We just re-signed Gerrard Warren which may be a step in the right direction, a three man front of Wilfork, Warren and Haynesworth will dominate anybody upfront.  They would easily stuff the run and open up the outside rushers to do damage to opposing QB's.

    How do I know this?  Besides simple physics, which tells me you must meet force with force and mass with more mass; I know this because I plugged this lineup into my roster on John Madden Football and now I'm shutting people down. Sounds simplistic but it is based in fact, size matters.  The 2/4/5 blows...

    Why would BB go this conservative route, ask yourself would you rather have this 3 man front healthy now or in the playoffs?  We've used a heavy rotation of 2 defensive tackles in every game trying to keep them fresh. BB knows his offense will win a lot of regular season games that will ultimately be shootouts, hopefully the D will toughen up before the playoffs and run more often on offense otherwise another early exit is in the cards..?


     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.

    In Response to Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme. : We just re-signed Gerrard Warren which may be a step in the right direction, a three man front of Wilfork, Warren and Haynesworth will dominate anybody upfront.  They would easily stuff the run and open up the outside rushers to do damage to opposing QB's. How do I know this?  Besides simple physics, which tells me you must meet force with force and mass with more mass; I know this because I plugged this lineup into my roster on John Madden Football and now I'm shutting people down. Sounds simplistic but it is based in fact, size matters.  The 2/4/5 blows... Why would BB go this conservative route, ask yourself would you rather have this 3 man front healthy now or in the playoffs?  We've used a heavy rotation of 2 defensive tackles in every game trying to keep them fresh. BB knows his offense will win a lot of regular season games that will ultimately be shootouts, hopefully the D will toughen up before the playoffs and run more often on offense otherwise another early exit is in the cards..?
    Posted by wozzy[/QUOTE]

    I gotta say it, bringing Warren back has the look of a JR SEAU type handshake deal. This reinforces your opinion that BB is holding his d-linemen as to have some healthy bodies for playoff time. If this is the case though I wonder why we are bringing him back this early? BB might be over the look of the d-line already???
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.

    In Response to Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme. : We just re-signed Gerrard Warren which may be a step in the right direction, a three man front of Wilfork, Warren and Haynesworth will dominate anybody upfront.  They would easily stuff the run and open up the outside rushers to do damage to opposing QB's. How do I know this?  Besides simple physics, which tells me you must meet force with force and mass with more mass; I know this because I plugged this lineup into my roster on John Madden Football and now I'm shutting people down. Sounds simplistic but it is based in fact, size matters.  The 2/4/5 blows... Why would BB go this conservative route, ask yourself would you rather have this 3 man front healthy now or in the playoffs?  We've used a heavy rotation of 2 defensive tackles in every game trying to keep them fresh. BB knows his offense will win a lot of regular season games that will ultimately be shootouts, hopefully the D will toughen up before the playoffs and run more often on offense otherwise another early exit is in the cards..?
    Posted by wozzy[/QUOTE]
    What if Haynesworth doesn't want to play in a 3 man front?
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from GEAUX-TIGRES. Show GEAUX-TIGRES's posts

    Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.

    In Response to Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme. : I've never seen a BB D look lights out through 3 weeks. That's what I mean by it. It's almost as if some fans do the same thing every year and then never,, ever compliment the D when it does well. Look at last year:  D looks better and better as the year goes. Even in 2008 or 2009, as bad as those Ds were, they improved as the year went. And is it really news a BB D doesn't unload the playbook early on as opposed Do you feel they have started better than last year? I do. Sacks are up, hurries are up, turnovers are good/steady, and the Run D is top 10 to start the year. All of these facets are a better start to the season than last year or even in 2009. NE's D in 2009 gave up 24 points to Buffalo at home. To me, there is a clear better starting point than in recent years, minus the CB/S play as a unit so far.  Acutally, check that, our CBs started off poorly last year too. They always get better, they don't flatline or get worse.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]
    Russ. I want to know where their pass D was ranked at last year's end. Haven't had a chance to google it.
     
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  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.

    In Response to Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme. : What if Haynesworth doesn't want to play in a 3 man front?
    Posted by UD6[/QUOTE]


    This is N.E not Washington. Even you know that won't happen.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.

    Look - I am not suggesting that NE is Washington.  Regardless of what's requested, I am sure that  its easier to swallow in NE than Wash.  That said, I am not so sure Haynesworth will be as effective in the 3-4 set, because I don't know if his heart (even if he doesn't complain) is in it. 

    What is Haynesworth's current injury?  How'd it happen?
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.

    My guess is that this is either a case of the defense not getting together yet, or they simply aren't that talented. 

    In either case, right now, simply pointing out that they are all 1st and 2nd rounders, and thus the talent is there, is cognitive dissonance at its worst.

    I know you like to question scheme, but you don't seem to confront the fantasy type attitude about players. 

    Now stop. Go back to your premise. 

    Is it possible that that collection of players simply aren't as good as where they were drafted, are older and washed up, or some combination of the two?

    Haynesworth + Carter + Ellis = what 100 years of age. They were all essentially let go, or let go for nothing by their teams. Isn't it possible that all of them are not what they used to be? 

    McCourty and Dowling ... one had a great rookie season, but isn't adjusting in press (note: not dropping back, he has been pressing and failing) coverage, and Dowling was considered a reach by many, myself included, because of his tendency to get injured. So, yeah, it is already looking that way, although he could come back and be healthy for the rest of his career ... if he doesn't then the concerns of many were valid. 

    Cunningham was also considered a bit of a reach, but really a 'me too' addition, and wasn't a top tier prospect. He shows no rush moves, and simply lazily walks into the OTs arms every down. 

    Mayo and Spikes have looked great, but are ILBs. Chung has looked just fine, but is the only functional DB right now. Wilfork is the best, but is a run stuffer. 

    Ok. 

    Now. Is it likely that NE drops back a lot because their corners are getting roasted in press coverage? Is it possible NE doesn't blitz more often because it would produce diminishing returns and isolate subpar DBs against superior WRs and TEs?

    Is it likely the the scheme is dictated by how personell perform .... the way that it always has been in NE during Bill's tenure?
     
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  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.

    Good post Z, I can't argue with that and I'm not pretending to be smart enough to have the answers. Both scenarios are possible. Maybe as you say we have more or less missed on our collection of talent as opposed to the scheme being at fault. In either case missing on talent in the draft or FA really comes full circle back to coaching and scouting does it not? 

    I'm not just looking for someone to place blame here, I am just trying to figure out why the best coach in NFL history is looking at his 3rd or really 4rth straight season of a declining defense. It hurts to watch!
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Dessalines. Show Dessalines's posts

    Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.

    Yes, it appears that the talent is there but until they prove it on the field, there is little positive to talk about.  No team is going to win the S.B. via offense alone, we are not going to "score" our way to a S.B. without of decent defense.  I have to see it on the field and so far, I can't say that the defense is as advertised.  Can it still be?  I think so but performance is proof.  Perform please. 
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.

    In Response to Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.:
    [QUOTE]Good post Z, I can't argue with that and I'm not pretending to be smart enough to have the answers. Both scenarios are possible. Maybe as you say we have more or less missed on our collection of talent as opposed to the scheme being at fault. In either case missing on talent in the draft or FA really comes full circle back to coaching and scouting does it not?  I'm not just looking for someone to place blame here, I am just trying to figure out why the best coach in NFL history is looking at his 3rd or really 4rth straight season of a declining defense. It hurts to watch!
    Posted by TrueChamp[/QUOTE]


    My take, on this and almost every issue? Scheme is great. Not system ... but scheme. It means changing what you are doing, even during a set of downs to counter what the other team is doing. It can enhance a team that is maybe not as talented. NE won three superbowls because they had talent and scheme. 

    But:
    1.) Scheme is ultimately dicated by available talent. It is the inverse of running a "system" like the Colts' offense or the Bears' defense, where you essentially have one "idea" of how to skin a cat, and the party trick is trying to find people who can skin it that way. It means you collect talent where you can get it, and adapt yourself around that talent to the best possible ends on a down to down basis. 

    2.) Scheme cannot totally make up for lack of talent. 6 of one, half a dozen of the other. I like to bring this to the 'old' (and always irrelevant to my mind) debates that raged here a few seasons ago about whether NE needed better corners or better OLBs. Now look at the Ravens and Jests ... two of the better defenses in the league. One has bad OLBs but amazing corners, the other has bad corners, but amazing OLB/DEs. Both, ultimately, have a similar desired effect, because there is enough talent to 'scheme' around. NE doesn't really have talent that matches with these teams, and it creates a black hole. Unless McCourty can shake off his sophomore slump, and Haynesworth can back as something close to what he was before, and Bodden do the same, NE's defense can't scheme around anything.

    In the end, the players need to take the blame. If you are blitzing, playing man under with aggressive bump and run, play exotic zones, where players are given the space to make plays on the ball, etc, or whether you are running, passing short, long, screening, whatever on offense, you can't scheme around poor execution and lack of talent. 

    The former may be fixable, the latter is only replaceable. 

    There are a million ways to skin a cat in this league. BB, I am sure, knows all of them. However, in the end, it's up to the players to go out and skin that cat. 
     

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