A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.

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    Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.

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    As for our talent in the drafts, I disagree completely. We don't have a weak group at LB at all.  Disagree. At worst, mediocre with a strong MLB crew and an uknown OLB crew. We have nice depth, an All Pro starter and captain, and a good mix of skill sets at MLB. At OLB, it's definitley more of a question mark there, yes. It's very hard to find Patriot players. It just is. We don't run a one dimensional Indy style 4-3 D with  Cover 2.  The pay off is greater in the long run, both on our offense and defense, and it's tough to find the right people. Look how mediocre people like McGinest, Brushci, Milloy, etc, were when Pete Carroll was here. THey'd look great as a core base group one week and then look terrible or average the next week. I do agree they need to look at DE in the upcoming draft or DT to add to Wilfork, Kyle Love, etc. But, I could care less where a Kyle Love or a Pryor (I know he's hurt, which blows) are drafted.  It doesn't matter. It's the selection of a player who gets it and can take the coaching to get better. Yesterday, Mazz and Felger are giggling like little girls talking abou how dumb it was to deal Seymour away.   All I can think of is the shortsighted fans here agreeing with it, simply because they associate Seymour with 3 rings. But, no one cares that he is grossly overpaid and there is a cap LOWER than 2009's cap when BB had to trade him. Seymour and people like Julius Peppers likely ain't going anywhere on teams that are that mismanaged, making that kind of cash every year.  Good for them, but bad for the TEAM. Seymour makes 14 million dollars and is nowhere near what he used to be here. He's still a force, but he doesn't command a double team as much and his cohort, Tommy Kelly, outproduces him. We have Nate Solder for it and had to pay Brady and Wilfork their market value. So, this is an issue?   As if there isn't a salary cap?  These idiots have no idea what they are talking about. None.  They stoke the fire while the anti-BB action is good. That's all they do. Then go quiet when the team looks good. Don't take the bait.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing


    I agree that Seymour was not worth the money he wanted and there is ample evidence of great players being drafted in the later rounds or going undrafted. That being said I think you are overrating the defensive talent we've gotten out of the draft recently and on our defense overall.  Look at the so-called "core" of the Super bowl defenses. They were all high draft picks.  Seymour, Law and McGinest were all 1st rounders.  Milloy and Vrabel were 2nd rounders and Bruschi was a 3rd rounder.  Even a lot of the other guys on the various rosters were higher draft picks (even if not drafted by the pats).  

    From 2006 to 2008 we didn't spend a single 2nd or 3rd round pick on a defensive player that panned out and although Mayo is a stud Meriweather is now gone.  In 2009 the first 3 rounds yielded Chung who is solid, but also Brace, Butler and McKenzie who were all busts.  The first 3 rounds in 2010 yielded another stud in McCourty, but Cunningham and Spikes can't stay on the field and while there is potential there I think you are overrating them slightly.  Obviously the verdict is still out on Dowling, but it is an undeniable fact that he is injury prone.

    The point I'm trying to make here is that it's true we've gotten some contributors on defense from the late rounds or the undrafted pool and no doubt there are some great defensive players that have come that route (James Harrison comes to mind), but I feel like at the end of the day our depth is hurt by the lack of reinforcements from the earlier rounds of our more recent drafts and that at certain positions there is a talent deficit which we are trying to patch with undrafted guys and vets who are at the end of their careers.

    P.S. I realize that our current defense has tons of 1st and 2nd rounders that we brought in recently, but a lot of these guys are pretty old and it's not clear how much they have left in the tank.
     
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    Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.

    In Response to Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme. : My take, on this and almost every issue? Scheme is great. Not system ... but scheme. It means changing what you are doing, even during a set of downs to counter what the other team is doing. It can enhance a team that is maybe not as talented. NE won three superbowls because they had talent and scheme.  But: 1.) Scheme is ultimately dictated by available talent. It is the inverse of running a "system" like the Colts' offense or the Bears' defense, where you essentially have one "idea" of how to skin a cat, and the party trick is trying to find people who can skin it that way. It means you collect talent where you can get it, and adapt yourself around that talent to the best possible ends on a down to down basis.  2.) Scheme cannot totally make up for lack of talent. 6 of one, half a dozen of the other. I like to bring this to the 'old' (and always irrelevant to my mind) debates that raged here a few seasons ago about whether NE needed better corners or better OLBs. Now look at the Ravens and Jests ... two of the better defenses in the league. One has bad OLBs but amazing corners, the other has bad corners, but amazing OLB/DEs. Both, ultimately, have a similar desired effect, because there is enough talent to 'scheme' around. NE doesn't really have talent that matches with these teams, and it creates a black hole. Unless McCourty can shake off his sophomore slump, and Haynesworth can back as something close to what he was before, and Bodden do the same, NE's defense can't scheme around anything. In the end, the players need to take the blame. If you are blitzing, playing man under with aggressive bump and run, play exotic zones, where players are given the space to make plays on the ball, etc, or whether you are running, passing short, long, screening, whatever on offense, you can't scheme around poor execution and lack of talent.  The former may be fixable, the latter is only replaceable.  There are a million ways to skin a cat in this league. BB, I am sure, knows all of them. However, in the end, it's up to the players to go out and skin that cat. 
    Posted by zbellino[/QUOTE]

    As I read your post I was ready to applaud your insight...except I had the uncomfortable feeling that exceptions to logic do happen.  Prior to the "big three" the Celtic's roster all but confirmed your premise as a lack of talent was evident.  Yet even with "the big three" we lost games to inferior teams.

    Two explanations come to mind, the first and most important, that talent and execution must be closely associated.  Talent must perform like talent.

    The second explanation may well have to do with scheme...which was perhaps reflected in the Bills game.  Brady, of necessity or choice, favored two receivers and allowed the defense to over-play those receivers.  Ocho may have been avoided because of his route running, poor hands and general lack of separation etc.  Branch may have been asked to play a poor scheme or that he's having problems with separation etc....The bottom line is that we were playing an offensive scheme that favored defensive coverage. Ditto for the defensive scheme that was soft in coverage.

    While I would be obliged to agree with the referenced  poster, I do believe that a team needs to employ a scheme that best compliments their roster (to acknowledge key personnel substitutions in their game planning) and minimizes offensive and defensive liabilities. Whether zone coverage (and not man-man) was indicated or that more blitzes or line movement was needed is beyond my sphere. Even dedicated and talented players can be victimized by a poor scheme.  It happens......
     
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    Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.

    In Response to Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme. : FALSE Absolutely FALSE. IN 2010, our D bailed out our offense in these games: 1. Miami  (STs and D won that game after we scored ZERO TDs IN THE FIRST HALF!!  Only 2 FGs against MIami?) 2. Baltimore (OT, many holds left and right) 3. Minny (Tough battle, goal line stand from our D, Favre knocked out) 4. SD (tough game on the road, our offense did squat!!!!) 5. Indy (Shoothout game, not much running from us, put a very dangerous Manning back on the field very quickly, and Sanders INT won the game) That's 5 games alone, and you know what, Brady never threw an INT (After Week 4). HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM. By December, our D was benefitting from our balanced offense, playing more relaxed, with more confidence, and far less presusure on them wiht this failed?flawed base McDaniels Spread. NE dealt Moss aafter Week 4 and the rest was history.. It forced Brady to do something else. BB broke up an addictive relationship which HELPED our D! You can't expect our D to be great in that McDaniels Spread. This goes back to 2006 when it was introduced! Old news! Our D bailed out the offense in the second half last week with multiple great plays to get the ball back from our awful 3rd qtr offense. If not for a Sergio Brown sketchy call this week, they did it again. As for our talent in the drafts, I disagree completely. We don't have a weak group at LB at all.  Disagree. At worst, mediocre with a strong MLB crew and an uknown OLB crew. We have nice depth, an All Pro starter and captain, and a good mix of skill sets at MLB. At OLB, it's definitley more of a question mark there, yes. It's very hard to find Patriot players. It just is. We don't run a one dimensional Indy style 4-3 D with  Cover 2.  The pay off is greater in the long run, both on our offense and defense, and it's tough to find the right people. Look how mediocre people like McGinest, Brushci, Milloy, etc, were when Pete Carroll was here. THey'd look great as a core base group one week and then look terrible or average the next week. I do agree they need to look at DE in the upcoming draft or DT to add to Wilfork, Kyle Love, etc. But, I could care less where a Kyle Love or a Pryor (I know he's hurt, which blows) are drafted.  It doesn't matter. It's the selection of a player who gets it and can take the coaching to get better. Yesterday, Mazz and Felger are giggling like little girls talking abou how dumb it was to deal Seymour away.   All I can think of is the shortsighted fans here agreeing with it, simply because they associate Seymour with 3 rings. But, no one cares that he is grossly overpaid and there is a cap LOWER than 2009's cap when BB had to trade him. Seymour and people like Julius Peppers likely ain't going anywhere on teams that are that mismanaged, making that kind of cash every year.  Good for them, but bad for the TEAM. Seymour makes 14 million dollars and is nowhere near what he used to be here. He's still a force, but he doesn't command a double team as much and his cohort, Tommy Kelly, outproduces him. We have Nate Solder for it and had to pay Brady and Wilfork their market value. So, this is an issue?   As if there isn't a salary cap?  These idiots have no idea what they are talking about. None.  They stoke the fire while the anti-BB action is good. That's all they do. Then go quiet when the team looks good. Don't take the bait.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

    Don't worry Russ...I won't take the bait, and usually you and I see eye to eye on things, even if your version is a bit more flamboyant.

    Okay, good evidence the D did some bailing out last year. Can't argue that. My only point is they need to perform at a high level for us to be SB contenders.

    This brings us back to our next point, the original point of the email....Talent vs. Scheme...does the current D roster have the talent to perform better, or good enough to be SB contenders?

    My point of view is that this Defense is not all that talented. And, the reason it is not all that talented lies in part to our poor draft results over the past 5 years, the necessity to rely on late round/UDFA talent, and this specifically older players who may not have all that much left.

    You can say it doesn't matter where we find talent, and to a degree you are right. However, my expectation, and probably the expectation of every NFL executive, is that teams find top tier talent in rounds 1-3 of the draft. You expect a 1st rounder to start and contribute in a big way, same to an extent for round 2 and round 3 are your potential starters/depth players. You simply aren't getting the same quality in UDFAs or very late rough draft picks..there is a reason they are UDFA's and late rounders.

    I gave you the example of our LB corps. You say our ILB situation is good. Okay, i'll agree..We have one star in Mayo, 2 decent players in Guyton, Spikes... Our OLB is mediocre at best..I don't see a star in the making out of any of them, and none of them are playmakers, pass rush specialists, or game changers. Seems like you agree with me there. Put the 2 together and overall I think we have a mediocre LB crew.

    Our DL (pryor to FA acquisitions this year)....Pryor (6th round-out), Love (UDFA), Wilfork (1st rounder), Deaderick (7th Round), Brace (2nd round), Wright (UDFA-out).
    Brace and Pryor have shown some talent, but at this point can't be counted on. Deaderick, Love mediocre. The only player that is a star is Wilfork that we selected, and he was selected prior to the last 5 drafts. So, over the last 5 drafts, as deficient as this defense has been, as much rebuilding we have said we need to do, we draft ZERO DL in round 1, only 1 in round 2 (jury's out), and the rest are late round picks or UDFAs. Is that a way to build a young, aggressive DL, when the DL is supposely where it all begins.....There is not even a core there except for Wilfork and Wright, and Wright's days are numbered with all those concussions. everyone else is old in the tooth, new to the system and is on short term rental.

    Our secondary...Chung good player, has potential to be great if he can be more consistent and stay healthy. McCourty good player, can be great if he can get past this recent slump. Ras looked good in 1 game as a pro, has potential. Bodden doesn't look nearly like his old self. Arrington and Moulden are decent depth CB's. Sergio Brown, Idegebo, Barrett not sure if they start on any team. All pretty mediocre. And, this secondary group is supposedly a strong part of the D. I can't poke a lot of holes in this group other than at Safety. BB took a calculated risk by letting Meriweahter, Sanders and Page walk and it backfired so far. again, wasted high draft picks with Butler (2nd round) and Whealtey (2nd round). I would also argue that Meriweather (1st round) was a wasted pick as well because he did'nt do what we needed and is no longer on the roster.

    Back to the post....My argument is..overall, I don't see a very high level of talent on this defense, especially if you take away some of the FA's we just signed. We have done a poor job of addressing key positions like DL, LB via the draft, and have wasted picks on the secondary.

    Russ, call me a pink hat or Gasper fan all you want, I just don't see the talent. If that makes me a traitor or however you want to classify me, so be it.
     
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    Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.

    In Response to Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme. : FALSE Absolutely FALSE. IN 2010, our D bailed out our offense in these games: 1. Miami  (STs and D won that game after we scored ZERO TDs IN THE FIRST HALF!!  Only 2 FGs against MIami?) 2. Baltimore (OT, many holds left and right) 3. Minny (Tough battle, goal line stand from our D, Favre knocked out) 4. SD (tough game on the road, our offense did squat!!!!) 5. Indy (Shoothout game, not much running from us, put a very dangerous Manning back on the field very quickly, and Sanders INT won the game) That's 5 games alone, and you know what, Brady never threw an INT (After Week 4). HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM. By December, our D was benefitting from our balanced offense, playing more relaxed, with more confidence, and far less presusure on them wiht this failed?flawed base McDaniels Spread. NE dealt Moss aafter Week 4 and the rest was history.. It forced Brady to do something else. BB broke up an addictive relationship which HELPED our D! You can't expect our D to be great in that McDaniels Spread. This goes back to 2006 when it was introduced! Old news! Our D bailed out the offense in the second half last week with multiple great plays to get the ball back from our awful 3rd qtr offense. If not for a Sergio Brown sketchy call this week, they did it again. As for our talent in the drafts, I disagree completely. We don't have a weak group at LB at all.  Disagree. At worst, mediocre with a strong MLB crew and an uknown OLB crew. We have nice depth, an All Pro starter and captain, and a good mix of skill sets at MLB. At OLB, it's definitley more of a question mark there, yes. It's very hard to find Patriot players. It just is. We don't run a one dimensional Indy style 4-3 D with  Cover 2.  The pay off is greater in the long run, both on our offense and defense, and it's tough to find the right people. Look how mediocre people like McGinest, Brushci, Milloy, etc, were when Pete Carroll was here. THey'd look great as a core base group one week and then look terrible or average the next week. I do agree they need to look at DE in the upcoming draft or DT to add to Wilfork, Kyle Love, etc. But, I could care less where a Kyle Love or a Pryor (I know he's hurt, which blows) are drafted.  It doesn't matter. It's the selection of a player who gets it and can take the coaching to get better. Yesterday, Mazz and Felger are giggling like little girls talking abou how dumb it was to deal Seymour away.   All I can think of is the shortsighted fans here agreeing with it, simply because they associate Seymour with 3 rings. But, no one cares that he is grossly overpaid and there is a cap LOWER than 2009's cap when BB had to trade him. Seymour and people like Julius Peppers likely ain't going anywhere on teams that are that mismanaged, making that kind of cash every year.  Good for them, but bad for the TEAM. Seymour makes 14 million dollars and is nowhere near what he used to be here. He's still a force, but he doesn't command a double team as much and his cohort, Tommy Kelly, outproduces him. We have Nate Solder for it and had to pay Brady and Wilfork their market value. So, this is an issue?   As if there isn't a salary cap?  These idiots have no idea what they are talking about. None.  They stoke the fire while the anti-BB action is good. That's all they do. Then go quiet when the team looks good. Don't take the bait.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

    Don't worry Russ...I won't take the bait, and usually you and I see eye to eye on things, even if your version is a bit more flamboyant.

    Okay, good evidence the D did some bailing out last year. Can't argue that. My only point is they need to perform at a high level for us to be SB contenders.

    This brings us back to our next point, the original point of the email....Talent vs. Scheme...does the current D roster have the talent to perform better, or good enough to be SB contenders?

    My point of view is that this Defense is not all that talented. And, the reason it is not all that talented lies in part to our poor draft results over the past 5 years, the necessity to rely on late round/UDFA talent, and this specifically older players who may not have all that much left.

    You can say it doesn't matter where we find talent, and to a degree you are right. However, my expectation, and probably the expectation of every NFL executive, is that teams find top tier talent in rounds 1-3 of the draft. You expect a 1st rounder to start and contribute in a big way, same to an extent for round 2 and round 3 are your potential starters/depth players. You simply aren't getting the same quality in UDFAs or very late rough draft picks..there is a reason they are UDFA's and late rounders.

    I gave you the example of our LB corps. You say our ILB situation is good. Okay, i'll agree..We have one star in Mayo, 2 decent players in Guyton, Spikes... Our OLB is mediocre at best..I don't see a star in the making out of any of them, and none of them are playmakers, pass rush specialists, or game changers. Seems like you agree with me there. Put the 2 together and overall I think we have a mediocre LB crew.

    Our DL (pryor to FA acquisitions this year)....Pryor (6th round-out), Love (UDFA), Wilfork (1st rounder), Deaderick (7th Round), Brace (2nd round), Wright (UDFA-out).
    Brace and Pryor have shown some talent, but at this point can't be counted on. Deaderick, Love mediocre. The only player that is a star is Wilfork that we selected, and he was selected prior to the last 5 drafts. So, over the last 5 drafts, as deficient as this defense has been, as much rebuilding we have said we need to do, we draft ZERO DL in round 1, only 1 in round 2 (jury's out), and the rest are late round picks or UDFAs. Is that a way to build a young, aggressive DL, when the DL is supposely where it all begins.....There is not even a core there except for Wilfork and Wright, and Wright's days are numbered with all those concussions. everyone else is old in the tooth, new to the system and is on short term rental.

    Our secondary...Chung good player, has potential to be great if he can be more consistent and stay healthy. McCourty good player, can be great if he can get past this recent slump. Ras looked good in 1 game as a pro, has potential. Bodden doesn't look nearly like his old self. Arrington and Moulden are decent depth CB's. Sergio Brown, Idegebo, Barrett not sure if they start on any team. All pretty mediocre. And, this secondary group is supposedly a strong part of the D. I can't poke a lot of holes in this group other than at Safety. BB took a calculated risk by letting Meriweahter, Sanders and Page walk and it backfired so far. again, wasted high draft picks with Butler (2nd round) and Whealtey (2nd round). I would also argue that Meriweather (1st round) was a wasted pick as well because he did'nt do what we needed and is no longer on the roster.

    Back to the post....My argument is..overall, I don't see a very high level of talent on this defense, especially if you take away some of the FA's we just signed. We have done a poor job of addressing key positions like DL, LB via the draft, and have wasted picks on the secondary.

    Russ, call me a pink hat or Gasper fan all you want, I just don't see the talent. If that makes me a traitor or however you want to classify me, so be it.
     
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    Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.

    In Response to Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme. : Don't worry Russ...I won't take the bait, and usually you and I see eye to eye on things, even if your version is a bit more flamboyant. Okay, good evidence the D did some bailing out last year. Can't argue that. My only point is they need to perform at a high level for us to be SB contenders. This brings us back to our next point, the original point of the email....Talent vs. Scheme...does the current D roster have the talent to perform better, or good enough to be SB contenders? My point of view is that this Defense is not all that talented. And, the reason it is not all that talented lies in part to our poor draft results over the past 5 years, the necessity to rely on late round/UDFA talent, and this specifically older players who may not have all that much left. You can say it doesn't matter where we find talent, and to a degree you are right. However, my expectation, and probably the expectation of every NFL executive, is that teams find top tier talent in rounds 1-3 of the draft. You expect a 1st rounder to start and contribute in a big way, same to an extent for round 2 and round 3 are your potential starters/depth players. You simply aren't getting the same quality in UDFAs or very late rough draft picks..there is a reason they are UDFA's and late rounders. I gave you the example of our LB corps. You say our ILB situation is good. Okay, i'll agree..We have one star in Mayo, 2 decent players in Guyton, Spikes... Our OLB is mediocre at best..I don't see a star in the making out of any of them, and none of them are playmakers, pass rush specialists, or game changers. Seems like you agree with me there. Put the 2 together and overall I think we have a mediocre LB crew. Our DL (pryor to FA acquisitions this year)....Pryor (6th round-out), Love (UDFA), Wilfork (1st rounder), Deaderick (7th Round), Brace (2nd round), Wright (UDFA-out). Brace and Pryor have shown some talent, but at this point can't be counted on. Deaderick, Love mediocre. The only player that is a star is Wilfork that we selected, and he was selected prior to the last 5 drafts. So, over the last 5 drafts, as deficient as this defense has been, as much rebuilding we have said we need to do, we draft ZERO DL in round 1, only 1 in round 2 (jury's out), and the rest are late round picks or UDFAs. Is that a way to build a young, aggressive DL, when the DL is supposely where it all begins.....There is not even a core there except for Wilfork and Wright, and Wright's days are numbered with all those concussions. everyone else is old in the tooth, new to the system and is on short term rental. Our secondary...Chung good player, has potential to be great if he can be more consistent and stay healthy. McCourty good player, can be great if he can get past this recent slump. Ras looked good in 1 game as a pro, has potential. Bodden doesn't look nearly like his old self. Arrington and Moulden are decent depth CB's. Sergio Brown, Idegebo, Barrett not sure if they start on any team. All pretty mediocre. And, this secondary group is supposedly a strong part of the D. I can't poke a lot of holes in this group other than at Safety. BB took a calculated risk by letting Meriweahter, Sanders and Page walk and it backfired so far. again, wasted high draft picks with Butler (2nd round) and Whealtey (2nd round). I would also argue that Meriweather (1st round) was a wasted pick as well because he did'nt do what we needed and is no longer on the roster. Back to the post....My argument is..overall, I don't see a very high level of talent on this defense, especially if you take away some of the FA's we just signed. We have done a poor job of addressing key positions like DL, LB via the draft, and have wasted picks on the secondary. Russ, call me a pink hat or Gasper fan all you want, I just don't see the talent. If that makes me a traitor or however you want to classify me, so be it.
    Posted by PatsLifer[/QUOTE]

    Good to great post....just about sums it up for me.   So good you had to post it twice...lol

    Very true though....most of the core players arent anything to write home about. Ellis, Carter, Aintworths draft position is null because they are long in the tooth and probably wont be better players in december than they will be in October...lucky if they are healthy.  Ninkovich just got an extension?!?  Guyton is never gonna make a pro bowl, Spikes can hit people hard but not much after that. Cunningham is a dead man walking. Bodden is what he is,. a nice 2nd tier cb.  Brown and Barret should never start for any team. 


    Only steals we have gotten lately have been on offense with Gronk and Hernandez who are currently the main reason for success on offense, so imagine where we would be with out them....
     
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    Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.

    In Response to Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.:
    In Response to Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme. :  You can't expect our D to be great in that McDaniels Spread. This goes back to 2006 when it was introduced! Old news! Our D bailed out the offense in the second half last week with multiple great plays to get the ball back from our awful 3rd qtr offense. If not for a Sergio Brown sketchy call this week, they did it again. As for our talent in the drafts, I disagree completely. We don't have a weak group at LB at all.  Disagree. At worst, mediocre with a strong MLB crew and an uknown OLB crew. We have nice depth, an All Pro starter and captain, and a good mix of skill sets at MLB. At OLB, it's definitley more of a question mark there, yes. It's very hard to find Patriot players. It just is. We don't run a one dimensional Indy style 4-3 D with  Cover 2.  The pay off is greater in the long run, both on our offense and defense, and it's tough to find the right people. Look how mediocre people like McGinest, Brushci, Milloy, etc, were when Pete Carroll was here. THey'd look great as a core base group one week and then look terrible or average the next week. I do agree they need to look at DE in the upcoming draft or DT to add to Wilfork, Kyle Love, etc. But, I could care less where a Kyle Love or a Pryor (I know he's hurt, which blows) are drafted.  It doesn't matter. It's the selection of a player who gets it and can take the coaching to get better. 

    These idiots have no idea what they are talking about. None.  They stoke the fire while the anti-BB action is good. That's all they do. Then go quiet when the team looks good. Don't take the bait.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing

    You are wroung about the field position last week. The Bills had two drives of 94 and 95 yards. There is no reason a turnover inside the other teams five yard line should be turning into a TD.

    I edited out the Seymour stuff because I agree with you on that. He is way overpaid. I would have preferred to get something right away for him, but Belichick thought the Raiders were going down hill and the pick would get better with time. I also agree with you on the LBs. I think our weakness is where it has been for years in the defensive backfield. McCourty has clearly taken a step back or is being asked to do too much and other than Chung the safety position is a mess.

    In regards to the bigger picture, some one has done a better job either coaching or as general manager than BB for seven years running now. You talk like he is still this genius who can beat anyone, and can win with mediocre players. That has not been the case lately. 

    FACT - the Patriots have not won a Super Bowl in seven seasons! 

    Brady and Belichick are the only constants since those back to back wins (Wilfork was a rookie for the '04 Super Bowl and Branch left and came back). By every measurable factor, Tom Brady has improved since then. That said, why are we not winning championships anymore?

     
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    Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.

    In Response to Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme. : Good to great post....just about sums it up for me.   So good you had to post it twice...lol Very true though....most of the core players arent anything to write home about. Ellis, Carter, Aintworths draft position is null because they are long in the tooth and probably wont be better players in december than they will be in October...lucky if they are healthy.  Ninkovich just got an extension?!?  Guyton is never gonna make a pro bowl, Spikes can hit people hard but not much after that. Cunningham is a dead man walking. Bodden is what he is,. a nice 2nd tier cb.  Brown and Barret should never start for any team.  Only steals we have gotten lately have been on offense with Gronk and Hernandez who are currently the main reason for success on offense, so imagine where we would be with out them....
    Posted by JayShizzle45[/QUOTE]

    Thanks.

    I'm not looking for a steal. Just the opposite. We have had the capital over the past 5 drafts to draft quality defensive talent, and have this talent be the core of our defense. When you select guys in rounds 1 through 3, your supposed to be getting your core, not a steal per se.
    Instead, we have pushed picks to later rounds/future drafts to acquire more chances to pick, or have made the wrong decision on players due to poor draft evaluation. We have had a ton of chances via the draft to upgrade and build the D, and it seems we have squandered it to a degree.
    Some will point out that our boom to bust ratio in the draft is better than any other team. Fact is, we have drafted more 1-3 round talent in the last 5 years than any other team, and from a ratio standpoint, we have more busts than booms.
    I personally would rather make 1/2 the selections we made, and have 1/2 of those selections turn into booms..we'd still be doing better than we are today.

    This is probably a rant destined for another thread or a lot of name calling by others, but it is relevant to our whole discussion around talent vs scheme. Scheme is good and putting players into positions to excel and do well is great. I think a scheme can help with that. But at the end of the day, you still need good players regardless of the scheme you run. There's only so much camoflauging you can do.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from ccnsd. Show ccnsd's posts

    Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.

    In Response to Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme. : FALSE Absolutely FALSE. IN 2010, our D bailed out our offense in these games: 1. Miami  (STs and D won that game after we scored ZERO TDs IN THE FIRST HALF!!  Only 2 FGs against MIami?) 2. Baltimore (OT, many holds left and right) 3. Minny (Tough battle, goal line stand from our D, Favre knocked out) 4. SD (tough game on the road, our offense did squat!!!!) 5. Indy (Shoothout game, not much running from us, put a very dangerous Manning back on the field very quickly, and Sanders INT won the game)
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE



     Lets talk about some of these games where the Defense bailed the Pats offense out. Against Minnesota the offense played a heck of a game against a good defense. Brady threw for 240 yards and no picks while Green Ellis ran for 100+ yards. The defense actually allowed a bad offense to gain 400+ yards. The defense played ok but the offense played extremely well and was certainly not "bailed" out by them.
     Against Miami, a game before the offense you dislike really started playing the current style. The special teams were amazing, but why is the offense at fault because the Pats return a kickoff for a touchdown and block a fieldgoal for a touchdown. The Pats special teams basically cost the offense two posessions yet you blame the offense for not scoring those touchdowns. When they did play the offense was good as usual. Brady was 19-24 with a touchdown and no picks. The running game was good in that game also. The defense played well in this game, especially chung, but it did give up 400 yards of offense again. 
     Against Baltimore, a great defense most would agree the, Brady threw for 290 yards and they had a gutsy 4th quarter comeback. Brady threw 2 picks but one of them was a hail mary at the end of regulation with no time left. This game was also before the current offensive run the Pats are in the midst of. The defensive numbers are misleading in this game. On paper Flacco had a great game but in the 4th quarter when the offense was mounting it's great comeback the defense played lights out. This was the game where Aaron Hernandez kept dropping the ball down the stretch putting the offense and especially the defense into tough positions. The defense was heroic in the 4th quarter but it did not bail out the offense which mounted a gritty comeback against a great defense. A true complementary win.
     The San Diego game, probably the craziest win of the Brady-Belichek era. The run game was terrible, the passing game was mediocre (no turnovers as usual and another touchdown pass for Brady though) and the defense was awful down the stretch. This should have been a blowout win for the Chargers but they had 4 turnovers in which 3 of them did not involve a Patriots defender even hitting the Charger player. It was not the defense that bailed out the Patriots in this one but the Chargers incompetence. This game was also before the current run.
     Your argument about the Colts game makes no sense at all. You call it a shootout which by definition means a good offense, bad defense, close game. The Colts had 450+ yards but the defense played tough and Sanders probably saved the game with an interception at the end. The offense was excellent though, no turnovers again. Brady threw 2 TD passes, 76% completion percentage and the running game was also excellant. Woodhead's draws went for almost 10 yards per carry and Green Ellis almost ran for 100 yards (you said they did not run much). Once again no "bail" out. A solid complementary win. Manning toasted the defense in yardage but he threw 3 picks.
     Therefore in not one of your game examples do I accept that the Defense bailed out the offense. Blaming O'brien for an offense that Belichek clearly endorses is pathetic. The offense put up historic numbers last year and so far this year despite a below average defense in 2010 and a terrible (and on pace to be perhaps the worst ever) defense in 2011.
     
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    Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.

    In Response to Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.:
    [QUOTE]Fact, since Weis left and our offense went to the spread, Brady's post season stats have been far worse than they were with CHarlie Weis. There's your answer. Even in the 2007 AFC CHampionship game, he threw two INTs, and it wasn't until the 4th when Maroney actually ran all over SD to ice it.  What if he had turned it over again? WHy did we wait so long to run it?  We ran it well in the 4th, thankfully. IN 2005, he threw a pick 6 in Denver. We had under 20 total runs in that game, but the D didn';t lose that. We scored 3 points in the first half. In 2006, he threw 2 or 3 INTs, granted with limited WRS options, but the offense was the McDaniels base spread. SB 42, was 48 times, no run game, with about 10 total runs, and obviously only scoring 7 points over 56 minutes, before a late, desperation TD to MOss. THis past January, 40+ times throwing, 3 points in the first half. Shall I keep going why we haven't won in the postseason? I have said here a milllion times Brady IS a better QB now than he was back then, but the system is WORSE. It's a fact the McDaniels Spread as a base offense against good Ds is a failure.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

     First of all there was no late desperation touchdown pass to Moss. That touchdown pass was the culmination of a long methodical drive where short passes to Welker was the key. That drive was gritty and showed tremendous heart. Are, you honestly telling me that if they handed the ball to Maroney 10 more times in that game they would have won. He was averaging less then 3 yards a carry. If anything the current offense, which is vastly diferrent then the big play throw deep offense of 2007, is similar to what they ran in that comeback drive. They spent too much of that game trying to make the big play. Dink and dunk is what they do best now and what they should have done from the beginning of that game. The Giants played great football that whole playoffs. Give them some credit, if anyone deserves blame for that loss it is the head coach and the offensive line. By the way the defense did blow it at the end of that game. They dropped 2 interceptions and allowed Eli Manning to win an MVP award on that final drive. 
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from brdbreu. Show brdbreu's posts

    Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.

    In Response to Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme. : Thanks. I'm not looking for a steal. Just the opposite. We have had the capital over the past 5 drafts to draft quality defensive talent, and have this talent be the core of our defense. When you select guys in rounds 1 through 3, your supposed to be getting your core, not a steal per se. Instead, we have pushed picks to later rounds/future drafts to acquire more chances to pick, or have made the wrong decision on players due to poor draft evaluation. We have had a ton of chances via the draft to upgrade and build the D, and it seems we have squandered it to a degree. Some will point out that our boom to bust ratio in the draft is better than any other team. Fact is, we have drafted more 1-3 round talent in the last 5 years than any other team, and from a ratio standpoint, we have more busts than booms. I personally would rather make 1/2 the selections we made, and have 1/2 of those selections turn into booms..we'd still be doing better than we are today. This is probably a rant destined for another thread or a lot of name calling by others, but it is relevant to our whole discussion around talent vs scheme. Scheme is good and putting players into positions to excel and do well is great. I think a scheme can help with that. But at the end of the day, you still need good players regardless of the scheme you run. There's only so much camoflauging you can do.
    Posted by PatsLifer[/QUOTE]


    thanks pats, been making the same arguments over the last year since joining here.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheFantasyBaron. Show TheFantasyBaron's posts

    Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.

    In Response to Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.:
    [QUOTE]It is alarming and I will agree we are talented enough to do better than we have been. I am hoping its just the transition to a new scheme and guys are adjusting.  I dont think its the finished product, but I also dont think we are gonna be THAT much better when Big Al(if) comes back and when Chung returns.  I think as you said they need to get more agressive like in preseason. I know different teams call for different schemes, but we are just not getting there.  We are struggling in man to man and the pressure is minimal, and its because we do blitz at times, but they are old, stale blitzes that most Qb's can see coming. When was the last time you saw a double safety Blitz in the regular season?  For me, it was in 03', we sent Rodney and Wilson and it was effective.  Not every time, but mix in some blitzes, overloads, and if not go back to the stupid zones, cuz our man coverage is getting burnt right now. I think Big Al, Ellis, and Carter are not really 1st rd talents anymore as they are too old to dominate and Vince hasnt been that effective in this new scheme.  I really dont see it getting much better as Big Al is not the presence we thought to free up others. He is getting handled one on one.  I think by mid year, we go back to 3-4 when we get more players back from p.u.p.
    Posted by JayShizzle45[/QUOTE]

    I think we're seeing how difficult it is to win a championship and how important it is to have game-changing play makers on defense. The 2001, 2003 and 2004 campaigns had a defensive roster full of in their prime grade A+ playmakers who routinely showed us greatness.  Let's not forget the element of luck as well and also that Brady is to the Pats what Peyton was to the Colts in that there's a ton of money tied up in the offense and in one position. When the Pats were winning their championships Brady wasn't the clear best player on the team as he is now. He had a lot of other team mates who could step up. The luck also seems to be gone and we don't see games anymore where the Pats get the ball to bounce their way.

    This league is about parody and all these years of the Pats winning has left them without a stockpile of high draft picks on the team in their primes.

    This defense will not get better I'm convinced of that; that doesn't mean you can't win a championship with what you've got but you also can't expect greatness. The Colts and New Orleans won SBs with sub par defense so its possible but those teams were offensive in nature and didn't melt down during the big games.

    Overall this team needs some players on defense who scare the heck out of the opposition and also players on offense who can take a beating. I watch the Packers and their receivers brazenly chellenge LBs and hit them in the mouth while they're cathing the ball; who on the Pats can do that? The Pats have no physical receivers or running backs who can hurt defensive players with brutality. The Pats have no explosive offensive players. They win with scheme and trickery but once its figured out usually in the second half they don't have the mano-mano skills to overpower defenses or offenses at any position.

    I love the Pats but the bottom line to me is that they've become a finesse team.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.

    In Response to Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme. : I think we're seeing how difficult it is to win a championship and how important it is to have game-changing play makers on defense. The 2001, 2003 and 2004 campaigns had a defensive roster full of in their prime grade A+ playmakers who routinely showed us greatness.  Let's not forget the element of luck as well and also that Brady is to the Pats what Peyton was to the Colts in that there's a ton of money tied up in the offense and in one position. When the Pats were winning their championships Brady wasn't the clear best player on the team as he is now. He had a lot of other team mates who could step up. The luck also seems to be gone and we don't see games anymore where the Pats get the ball to bounce their way. This league is about parody and all these years of the Pats winning has left them without a stockpile of high draft picks on the team in their primes. This defense will not get better I'm convinced of that; that doesn't mean you can't win a championship with what you've got but you also can't expect greatness. The Colts and New Orleans won SBs with sub par defense so its possible but those teams were offensive in nature and didn't melt down during the big games. Overall this team needs some players on defense who scare the heck out of the opposition and also players on offense who can take a beating. I watch the Packers and their receivers brazenly chellenge LBs and hit them in the mouth while they're cathing the ball; who on the Pats can do that? The Pats have no physical receivers or running backs who can hurt defensive players with brutality. The Pats have no explosive offensive players. They win with scheme and trickery but once its figured out usually in the second half they don't have the mano-mano skills to overpower defenses or offenses at any position. I love the Pats but the bottom line to me is that they've become a finesse team.
    Posted by TheFantasyBaron[/QUOTE]

    I agree with most of what you posted here. The only point I don't agree with is "all the years of winning have left them without high 1st round draft picks..."

    Even though we have been winning, we still have 1st round picks. They are not in the top 10, but good defensive talent can still be found in the 20 range. Happens every year. Adding to that, based on the way we trade draft picks, we have acquired quite a few extra 1sts, 2nds and 3rds. Tons of talent in these rounds to select. The problem in my view is not that we haven't had top 10 selections, but that the selections/choices we have made have been poor at best. This has left us without a strong nucleus. Our front 7 outside the FA guys we signed this year is nothing to fear outside of Mayo and Wilfork. The rest is pretty mediocre talent.
     
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    Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.

    Our D has a two fold problem; 1 lack of cohesiveness due to a slew of new personel and schemes. 2 Injuries,I know they are part of the game but with the shortened camp and preseason the injuries we have experienced have further deterred the lack of cohesiveness. I myself think the worst we go is 12-4. By the end of the season I feel we will be up to speed and be the BB defense that he is known for, great red zone defense. He made many of this seasons changes due to the fact our red zone efficiency has been declining the last year or two, so the changes had to be made,right now we're just going through some growing pains.
     
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    Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.

    In Response to Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.:
    [QUOTE]Fact, since Weis left and our offense went to the spread, Brady's post season stats have been far worse than they were with CHarlie Weis. There's your answer. Even in the 2007 AFC CHampionship game, he threw two INTs, and it wasn't until the 4th when Maroney actually ran all over SD to ice it.  What if he had turned it over again? WHy did we wait so long to run it?  We ran it well in the 4th, thankfully. IN 2005, he threw a pick 6 in Denver. We had under 20 total runs in that game, but the D didn';t lose that. We scored 3 points in the first half. In 2006, he threw 2 or 3 INTs, granted with limited WRS options, but the offense was the McDaniels base spread. SB 42, was 48 times, no run game, with about 10 total runs, and obviously only scoring 7 points over 56 minutes, before a late, desperation TD to MOss. THis past January, 40+ times throwing, 3 points in the first half. Shall I keep going why we haven't won in the postseason? I have said here a milllion times Brady IS a better QB now than he was back then, but the system is WORSE. It's a fact the McDaniels Spread as a base offense against good Ds is a failure.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

    Russ - here's my questions for you: 

    Would your pats be better both (answer both) offensive and from an entire team standpoint if they had a more balanced run/pass approach?
     
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  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from ccnsd. Show ccnsd's posts

    Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.

    In Response to Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme. : The reason why the INndy game is an example of the D bailijng out the O, is because our offense sputtered and stalled, with 3 and outs galore, allowing CLEALRY a VERY danergous HOF QB and very good offense to get more chances with more time. Look at the second half playcalling and results in the Indy game. It's sort of arrogant to ignore how great Manning is and his ability to come back against ANY team. Our D held and made the play. That's the point. It seems like when they do this, everyone who is so uptight about our progressing D, ignores it, because there is only one guy on that D (Wilfork) with a Lombardi to his name. That's what this comes down to.  Some fans scapegoating a rebuilt D even when it's really not their fault. Here it is: Note the shotguns... 1st and 10 at NE 27 (Shotgun) T.Brady pass short right to W.Welker pushed ob at NE 36 for 9 yards (T.Hagler).     2nd and 1 at NE 36 B.Green-Ellis up the middle to NE 38 for 2 yards (D.Muir, R.Mathis).     1st and 10 at NE 38 T.Brady sacked at NE 30 for -8 yards (D.Freeney).     2nd and 18 at NE 30 (Shotgun) D.Woodhead left guard to NE 38 for 8 yards (P.Angerer).     3rd and 10 at NE 38 (Shotgun) T.Brady pass short left to D.Branch to NE 41 for 3 yards (J.Lacey).     4th and 7 at NE 41 Z.Mesko punts 45 yards to IND 14, Center-M.Katula. B.James to Now on the second drive of the second half, this is where O'Brien showed some creativity with a strong side sweep, where Woodhead ran 36 yards for a TD. Ran it. That was a good job, but we need more of that.  That put NE by 14. Here's where it gets hairy: 2nd and 5 at NE 44 B.Green-Ellis left end to IND 40 for 16 yards (P.Angerer). IND-A.Bethea was injured during the play.     1st and 10 at IND 40 (Shotgun) T.Brady pass short middle to W.Welker to IND 31 for 9 yards (J.Powers).     2nd and 1 at IND 31 B.Green-Ellis left guard to IND 28 for 3 yards (A.Johnson, D.Muir).     1st and 10 at IND 28 B.Green-Ellis right guard to IND 25 for 3 yards (P.Angerer, K.Hayden).     2nd and 7 at IND 25 T.Brady pass short left to D.Branch to IND 11 for 14 yards (J.Powers).     1st and 10 at IND 11 (Shotgun) D.Woodhead left tackle to IND 8 for 3 yards (A.Bethea, P.Angerer).     2nd and 7 at IND 8 B.Green-Ellis right guard to IND 7 for 1 yard (A.Bethea, P.Angerer).     3rd and 6 at IND 7 (Shotgun) T.Brady pass incomplete short middle to J.Edelman. If you look at this, We go in the shotgun on 3rd and 6 and it's incomplete, so we kick a FG.    But, look at how Woodhead was used on first down in that series and then O'Brien suffled in BJGE!  What happened?  A run for 1 yard because Indy KNEW it was coming! Do you see? If they just would use one lead back or use BJGE and Ridley as the same guy or use Woodhead as that guy for entire drives, that would eliminate some of the predictability. So, we started that drive at our own 44, which is essentially mid field, and all we get was a FG. It happens, not awful.   Sure. But, look at how that drive was called. If this doesn't prove my point about the shotgun/spread and our 2nd half offense stalling all the time, I don't know what does. Now look at this follow up!! New England Patriots at 7:57 IND NWE 1st and 10 at NE 23 (Shotgun) T.Brady pass incomplete short left to W.Welker.     2nd and 10 at NE 23 (Shotgun) D.Woodhead left guard to NE 29 for 6 yards (J.Lacey). IND-J.Lacey was injured during the play.     3rd and 4 at NE 29 (Shotgun) T.Brady pass incomplete short left to D.Branch.     4th and 4 at NE 29 Z.Mesko punts 45 yards to IND 26, Center-M.Katula. B.James ran ob at IND 27 for 1 yard. 40 SECOND DRIVE! AWFUL! And then... 2:21 and we punt from our own 32! New England Patriots at 4:46 IND NWE 1st and 10 at NE 15 B.Green-Ellis right tackle to NE 29 for 14 yards (A.Bethea, F.Moala).     1st and 10 at NE 29 B.Green-Ellis left end to NE 31 for 2 yards (K.Conner, P.Wheeler).     2nd and 8 at NE 31 B.Green-Ellis right end to NE 32 for 1 yard (P.Wheeler, A.Bethea).     3rd and 7 at NE 32 (Shotgun) T.Brady pass incomplete short middle to W.Welker (T.Hagler).     4th and 7 at NE 32 Z.Mesko punts 42 yards to IND 26, Center-M.Katula, fair catch by B.James.     DRIVE TOTALS: IND 28, NE 31, 4 plays, 17 yards, 2:21 elapsed Do you see???? Our D was literally on the field 3 straight times after our last scoring move which was only a FG.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]


     You did not note that I gave credit to the defense for a decent performance. I called it a good complementary win. You used the word shootout, not me. I gave the defense great credit for the three turnovers including Sanders "game saving" interception. When have I ever ignored Manning's greatness. I did not mention it in the post because I took it for a given, apparently you do not. Therefore, in any future post about Manning let it be known I consider him a great quarterback. The second best of the past 10 years with the the gap between 2 & 3 being bigger than the gap from 1 & 2.
     Once again a 3 and out by the Pats offense is O'Brien & Brady incompetence while any Defensive stop is a product of great defense. That is completely unfair. Please remember you said there "was not much running" by the Pats but the stats show there was. The offense played good and the defense played good. A good team win where everyone contributed. Once again that means no one was bailed out. The Colts after all had just gone to the super bowl and they have some very good players on defense, who can get pressure on other teams quarterbacks.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from ccnsd. Show ccnsd's posts

    Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.

    In Response to Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme. : Dude, they were down 10-7 and struggled the entire game. It was absolute desperation to try to get a TD on that drive. A FG would have allowed NY to milk the clock and get their own. I agree it was a nice drive, but didn't it remind you of the one we just saw in Buffalo on Sunday? You don't see a parallel there? Really? I know they dropped two INTs, but neither were gimmes, and we saw a miracle catch too. It doesn't change the fact the greatest offense in regular season history with bye week could barely muster 14 points!!  Barely! That's the source. You can't expect to win a SB scoring 14 points. We were the St. Louis Rams that year and there is absolutely nothing we can do to change that. I hated the Rams and how they played.   It doesn't really work when you need it. Also, your comment on the O Line is relevant, but wouldn't the O Line have looked better if they weren't asked to pass block so predictably, 50 times?
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]


     In my post I noted that the current offense is very diferrent than that offense. That offense was based on the big plays produced by Randy Moss. The argument back then was the deep ball to Moss openned up the short stuff to Welker. The current passing game is dink and dunk style, just like that great 4th quarter drive when Moss scored. If they had played that style the whole day the offensive line play may not have been so bad and the already injured QB would not have been knocked around so much. Of course the offense did not play great, everyone who watched the game saw that but running Maroney for 2 yards a pop a few more times would not have helped anything. They should not have abandoned the pass in favor of the run in the second half but the play calling should have been changed at the half time when it was clear the Giants were playing great on defense and we were not getting the usual amount of time to throw the ball. I don't want to keep rehashing a sad super bowl loss where the whole team and coaching staff underperformed, needless to say I do not believe that drive was a desperate drive, it was methodical and gritty and took what I thought would be the final lead change. Bad execution does not mean the play called was bad or the wrong one. Pass happy offenses have been winning a lot of super bowl's lately. Indy in 2006, New Orleans in 2009 and the Packers (who are much worse at running the ball than the Pats) in 2010. TheSteelers don't run it nearly as much as they used to either.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.

    In Response to Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme. : I agree with most of what you posted here. The only point I don't agree with is "all the years of winning have left them without high 1st round draft picks..." Even though we have been winning, we still have 1st round picks. They are not in the top 10, but good defensive talent can still be found in the 20 range. Happens every year. Adding to that, based on the way we trade draft picks, we have acquired quite a few extra 1sts, 2nds and 3rds. Tons of talent in these rounds to select. The problem in my view is not that we haven't had top 10 selections, but that the selections/choices we have made have been poor at best. This has left us without a strong nucleus. Our front 7 outside the FA guys we signed this year is nothing to fear outside of Mayo and Wilfork. The rest is pretty mediocre talent.
    Posted by PatsLifer[/QUOTE]


    "The problem in my view is not that we haven't had top 10 selections, but that the selections/choices we have made have been poor at best. This has left us without a strong nucleus. "

    there.
    now its being said plainly more and more
     
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    Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.

    In Response to Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme. : "The problem in my view is not that we haven't had top 10 selections, but that the selections/choices we have made have been poor at best. This has left us without a strong nucleus. " there. now its being said plainly more and more
    Posted by bredbru[/QUOTE]


    We have not had top 10 selections! Maybe I am taking this out of context? Without sounding defensive to the Patriots draft ability I will say that we have benefited from BB's ability to accumulate picks. We have had more draft selections in the 1st 3 rounds then any team in the NFl over the course of the decade. I didn't verify this as fact but I feel pretty confident given our history.

    I think it is easier for this team to move on from a player after a few years then it would be for say the Detroit Lions.(Wheatley,Butler, a guy like Tyrone Mckenzie etc...) The Lions would be forced to play their draft picks, talented or not because they have not been able draft as many high round players that the Pats have.

    I think it speaks volumes as an organization to be able to cut a 2nd round pick after 2 seasons when other teams would be crippled by said acquisition for years to come. We are strong enough organizationally speaking to part ways with a player when we see him not performing right away, and not after 3 or 4 years of squandered hope.

    I am sure a lot of you would scoff at this, but I think there is something to be said for the premise that more picks will equate to more busts and vice versa.

    When all is said and done this team is loaded with top level draft picks, sprinkled in with a few role players any given team should have. I blame the scheme for the slow start(minimal extra pass rushers etc..) but just like every year I think it will develop into a solid unit.

    Now lets hope the best offense in the NFL will not fall apart in the playoffs for the 4rth year in a row.
     
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    Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.

    In Response to Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme. : We have not had top 10 selections! Maybe I am taking this out of context? Without sounding defensive to the Patriots draft ability I will say that we have benefited from BB's ability to accumulate picks. We have had more draft selections in the 1st 3 rounds then any team in the NFl over the course of the decade. I didn't verify this as fact but I feel pretty confident given our history. I think it is easier for this team to move on from a player after a few years then it would be for say the Detroit Lions.(Wheatley,Butler, a guy like Tyrone Mckenzie etc...) The Lions would be forced to play their draft picks, talented or not because they have not been able draft as many high round players that the Pats have. I think it speaks volumes as an organization to be able to cut a 2nd round pick after 2 seasons when other teams would be crippled by said acquisition for years to come. We are strong enough organizationally speaking to part ways with a player when we see him not performing right away, and not after 3 or 4 years of squandered hope. I am sure a lot of you would scoff at this, but I think there is something to be said for the premise that more picks will equate to more busts and vice versa. When all is said and done this team is loaded with top level draft picks, sprinkled in with a few role players any given team should have. I blame the scheme for the slow start(minimal extra pass rushers etc..) but just like every year I think it will develop into a solid unit. Now lets hope the best offense in the NFL will not fall apart in the playoffs for the 4rth year in a row.
    Posted by TrueChamp[/QUOTE]

    I would have to disagree with that. It doesn't matter how many picks if your taking guys like Brace , Butler , Jackson , Maroney , Meri , Tate etc. I mean you said it yourself , we're cutting guys like Butler , who we just drafted. That's not something I'm necessarily proud of. Listen I love the fact that we have tons of picks every year believe me. I'm just saying if you look at who we took with those picks , a lot haven't panned out.
     
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    Re: A closer look at Patriots defense...Talent Verse Scheme.

    TB threw four picks to an improving Bills team and we lost by a field goal.  Why are we throwing the defense under the bus? 

     
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