Absolutely none!  Bush may have started down the trail, but Obama turned it into a super highway!!!  Let me ask you.  If you have $5,000 worth of credit card debt, do you say to yourself, well i better take a $100,000 cash advance so I can get out of this debt?  It's sheer craziness, so no, he deserves NO SLACK!



He wasn't firm enough on border security.  As a nation, we need the ability to pick and choose who comes into our country, and right now we don't.



That's why I'm hoping for a Constitutional Amendment.  You seem completely outraged by the 3000+ Americans that have died in Iraq.  Why no outrage at the 50,000,000+ Americans who have died in the womb?  kind of hypocritical, wouldn't you say?



He did appoint some conservative SC Justices though, which I was happy about.



I'm assuming you mean John (I've got the purple hearts to prove it) Kerry.  Both he and Al (do what I say not what I do) Gore would have been terrible for this country.  Fakes all around.



I'm not impressed with his degrees.  you shouldn't be either. After all Bush's academic degrees come from Yale.



No, what makes him an idiot is he talks like an expert on things he knows nothing about.



If that is true, (and I'm not saying it is) how are you any different than Rush? That is the pot calling the kettle black if I ever saw it!  And you tell me I can't have it both ways???  You have a Ditto card, don't you????



Nazis we're trying to take over the world.  What do you think Islamic Fundamentalists are trying to do?



Everyone, including Democrats thought that.  "He lied" is an assumption.



Fine, but what he said is still relevant.  Those who have been given much have a responsibility to the rest of the world.



Who would you suggest?  France?



Then those people will never enjoy it, plain and simple.  No other countries, save our allies, are stepping up to the plate.  You've just condemned the rest of the world to their freedom-less state.



You mean the act that allows the government to eaves drop on suspected terrorists in order to prevent events like 9-11 from occurring again??  Absolutely!



It was the Declaration of Independence.  Sorry, there I go being a stickler, lol.  Just kidding.



We've been here before.  I don't believe the government is obliged to protect non-procreating couples.  That's aside from the fact I believe it's deviantat behavior.  



One problem at a time. 





I don't call sitting on our butts and doing nothing about terrorism "the moral high ground".  As the saying goes (and Jesus didn't say it) the only way for evil to win is for good men to do nothing.



No, that's not what I meant but you're stuck on this Bush lied thing so.....



Good one.  however, this is the bad living I was talking about.  A by-product of freedom.



You're friends are heros.



It's only fearful if you sit on your thumbs and do nothing about it.  Bush did something about it.



No, the question should be "why aren't we doing more..."

I watch Bill Maher every week. His interviews and panel discussions are unscripted ( except for his questions ) and stimulating although I've become so cynical, I don't know if I can recognize the truth any more even if it's obvious. I also disagree with him on a number of issues. Especially nuclear power. I don't know about his high rating as a stand up comic ( I think that list also includes significantly unfunny people like Buddy Hackett ). I've seen some of his shows and they are often redundant. The opening monologue on the TV show consists mostly of him trying to make humor out of failed jokes. However, the New Rules are usually hilarious.

Excellent point.  I have a friend in the UK who had to wait 8 months to get a hernia operation.  And that was after they bumped him up to the short list when he got a hernia on the other side too.  Socialized medicine doesn't work.  besides, someone that doesn't have health insurance can go to hospital emergency rooms and get care for free which the hospital will write off.  maybe not in all cases, but I know someone that regularly takes advantage of this program.

1) who said we don't have healthcare for all?  My buddy's son is getting treatment as we speak and he has no health insurance. 

2) Do you think the Canadian healthcare system works?  If so, then why do so many come to the US for treatment? 

3) You said you were neither democrat or republican, and that you vote for the best candidate.  But throughout this thread you have defended the democrats while trashing the republicans.  You may claim independence but your words provide a fairly clear picture. 

4) as for greed, it has generally been my perspective that most of the wealthiest amongst us end up being democrats and not republicans.  The phenomenon surprises me, and I often think I must be wrong, but it doesn't appear that way.  I wonder why this is.  Would you be surprised to know that Bernie Madoff was a democrat?  This obviously does not mean that there aren't greedy republicans, but I tend to think there is a conventional wisdom out there that R's are greedy and D's are not, which, of course, is horshit.

let me clear that right up for you Underdogg, Democrats are a bunch of f*cks too lol I give it to teh republicans so much because I hate them a lot more but if a republcan canidate ran and I liked him I would give him my vote. But George W. Bush and the Rush Limbaighs of the world have largly ruined the republican party and most young people in this country right now would list republicans under the headline "evil" I am not saying teh Dems are any better I am just saying the republican party has let haters like Rush ruin their party. You guys seem to have me trumped on the health care issue so i will concede on that point.

Gents - as one who is directly affected by this whole healthcare issue, I agree that socialized healthcare does not work, but neither does the private system. 

Whether we like it or not, medicine is a social issue which generally runs counter to the free market system.  That does not mean that there is not a way to deliver a social good through private enterprises - ie utilities, and I believe that may be some of the direction in which this thing moves. 

All of the pieces will have to accept less in order to manage costs and that includes consumers.  Ultimately, I am convinced that many of the best and brightest will no longer wish to be doctors, we will have a lower standard of care, and it will still be very expensive from a tax and benefit perspective.

Did one of them include not jet-setting around the globe in a aviation-fuel-guzzling business jet?  Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Don't worry.  I'm sure he didn't believe this one.  He was probably just pandering to the right wingers.

I think one reason that healthcare costs are on the rise is because government healthcare plans don't pay out.  I have, as a retired military person, a program called Tricare.  It's similar to Medicaid/Medicare.  When I get my point-of-service benefits sheets, I'm amazed that the goverment pays out so little.  For example:  I get an MRI that costs $2000 and the government gives the hospital $150.  The hospital then has to pass their loss on everybody else that has other private insurance.  Same with Medicaid/Medicare.  For a government that wants to revamp everything to "make things better", maybe they should just start paying doctors and hospitals a fair amount for services provided.  Another case of the government getting its nose into the private sector and screwing things up.  We have the best healthcare in the world even though there are problems with it.

Absolutely none!  Bush may have started down the trail, but Obama turned it into a super highway!!!  Let me ask you.  If you have $5,000 worth of credit card debt, do you say to yourself, well i better take a $100,000 cash advance so I can get out of this debt?  It's sheer craziness, so no, he deserves NO SLACK!




All this does is prove my point that you are one sided, what works for Bush doesn’t work for Obama. Bush gets a pass but Obama is going to get us killed!!!! It’s not even logical. And by the way incase you missed it Obama did not come out with the bailout plan all by himself. If you remember John McCain put his stamp all over it as well so it was a joint effort but how quickly that gets forgotten when you want to smear Obama with bull sh*it. The man is not perfect but he is still better then Bush any day.  




That's why I'm hoping for a Constitutional Amendment.  You seem completely outraged by the 3000+ Americans that have died in Iraq.  Why no outrage at the 50,000,000+ Americans who have died in the womb?  Kind of hypocritical, wouldn't you say?



You can hope all you want my friend it will never happen. You can not force your values on the rest of us. You are against abortion because it goes against your religion but we are not all the same and we don’t all follow the same religion so would be entirely unfair to the rest of us to force your values on us. Sorry brohan but it will never happen so I wouldn’t get my hopes up if I was you. You ask me why no outrage over the 50,000,000+ deaths in the womb? It is a simple answer I am pro choice 100% I would go into it but it is pointless all that matters in the end is I am pro choice and you are pro life its not like you will some how change my mind so I will just say that I am pro choice and that’s why that does not bother me. My friends dieing in a war I do not support does bother me, maybe if Bush had been honest in the beginning and just said ‘listen America, Iraq does not have WMD’s and Sadam has no connection to Bin Ladan but Iraq is an issue we need to address and it will give us a spring board into the middle east. Heck he could have been even more honest and said that got oil and we need oil and that’s better then lying his way into a war. But he didn’t do that he lied to us all and then he didn’t even apologize for his lie nor did he even acknowledge the huge lie he told us all. I don’t think it is hypocritical what so ever to be honest I don’t see how one has to do with another.



He did appoint some conservative SC Justices though, which I was happy about.



Hey if that helps you look past the fact that he played you and all the other religious people he tricked into voting for him then all the power to you. But he played you man, like a con man. He gave you just enough to make you happy like with the SC Justices but he never really gave you exactly what you thought he would. And boy am I glad he didn’t, there is no need to bring religion into government. Once again we are not the Holy Empire of America and he nor should any other president ever let their personal religious beliefs interfere with how they run the country.



I'm assuming you mean John (I've got the purple hearts to prove it) Kerry.  Both he and Al (do what I say not what I do) Gore would have been terrible for this country.  Fakes all around.




Yea they are the fake ones but Bush is totally up front…you have to be joking. You can call Al Gore a hypocrite if you want but that doesn’t make him wrong. He may not practice what he preaches but that does not make his global warming argument any less true. He would have done a very good job as President. I won’t go as far with Kerry, John Kerry only got as far as he did because so many people hate Bush. But Al Gore would have done a fine job in my opinion. He would not have done as bad as Bush that’s for sure.



I'm not impressed with his degrees.  You shouldn't be either. After all Bush's academic degrees come from Yale.



Yea the difference is unlike Bush Maher had to get into college on his brains alone. He did not have Daddy pulling strings for him. And if you don’t think Daddy Bush had anything to do with George W getting into Yale you are being naïve, his dad was president for Christ sake of course he pulled some strings for his kid. And I am not impressed by Maher’s degree in fact I would not have even looked up his background info if you had not challenged his intelligence, what impresses me is how he speaks and his view on things. I happen to agree with almost everything says….almost everything sometimes I don’t see it his way. He is the kind of guy I would have a drink with maybe smoke a J with him and see how he feels about this subject or that subject. He strikes me as a smart person.



No, what makes him an idiot is he talks like an expert on things he knows nothing about.



Could you please give me an example of this? As everything I have ever heard him speak about has always been well researched and thought out. He seems like he knows exactly what he is talking about. In fact I would bet money he knows more about the subjects he tackles on his then you or I do. None of us would last 5 seconds trying to debate this man so please tell me how exactly he runs off at the mouth about thing he knows nothing about?




If that is true, (and I'm not saying it is) how are you any different than Rush? That is the pot calling the kettle black if I ever saw it!  And you tell me I can't have it both ways???  You have a Ditto card, don't you????




Maybe because I don’t have millions of people listening to me like I speak the word of god the way Rush does? I can say something mean and outlandish because I am talking amongst friends on the internet where maybe 50 people will read what I say and none of whom will take anything I say to heart. Rush however has a crazy big fan base full of people who take what he says seriously and that’s what makes it different. If I had a huge public forum the way he does I wouldn’t have said what I said to you in my last post. Because I know it is not ok to say something like over the air waves. Rush however will say whatever he has to no matter what happens. To be honest with you 347 you seem like a very smart person who knows a thing or two and its baffles me that you would even defend Rush. I mean Bush is one thing you voted for the man but Rush Limbaugh might as well go back in time and work for Nazi Germany as a propaganda radio host the way he runs his show.





 Nazis we're trying to take over the world.  What do you think Islamic Fundamentalists are trying to do?




Hmmmm not take over the world? They might hate American’s and want to see our country burn to the ground but I highly doubt they sit around like Lex Luther trying to get Superman and talk about how they want to take over the world! Muhahahahaha! I don’t see it. Its just another way to try and scare people into letting the right wing D bags get away with whatever they want in the name of “keeping us safe”





Everyone, including Democrats thought that.  "He lied" is an assumption.



An assumption? Ok then where are the WMD’s he said Iraq had hidden from the UN? Where are they? He said that Iraq had them and that is why we needed to strike and then it never happened. So if he didn’t lie where are the WMD’s? Can you give me the address where they are being held? Where were they found? How many did Sadam have hidden? Oh that’s right you can’t answer these questions because there were no WMDs because he lied. You might want to delude yourself into forgetting that he lied to the entire country but I refuse to move on or forget. He lied to us and sent us into a war and he should have been impeached for what he did.





Who would you suggest?  France?



Who would I suggest? How about no one. I don’t see it being anyone else’s job to police the entire world. And incase you have not noticed we are not the super power we once were. We are broke as a joke but still funding wars? And what did we get for our money? Did Bush ever catch Bin Ladan? Nope, so the man responsible for 9/11 the one guy we should be looking for and should have found by now is still out there. But hey we gave Iraq freedom right? I think it’s great that we freed Iraq but do I think it was our job or responsibility to do so? No I do not. Listen if there is a country committing genocide or threatening to drop a nuke then I am all for us policing the world but we had no reason to go into a Iraq. No reason at all. The one reason given to us at the time was a bold faced lie. You know why no one else would go into Iraq and do what we did? Because they had no reason to. Hell if we want to stop someone from making weapons of mass destruction why don’t we start with North Korea since we know for a fact that they have them.



Then those people will never enjoy it, plain and simple.  No other countries, save our allies, are stepping up to the plate.  You've just condemned the rest of the world to their freedom-less state.




Lots of places were far worse off then Iraq and we didn’t lift a finger to help them. If we are so worried about giving everyone else some freedom why not go where we are needed most? Maybe because they didn’t have any oil? This was not about giving Iraq freedom it was about greed plain and simple. Bush could care less about other country’s having freedom so don’t fool yourself.



You mean the act that allows the government to eaves drop on suspected terrorists in order to prevent events like 9-11 from occurring again??  Absolutely!





Yes and anyone else they deem fit. They can ease drop on anyone they want, you, me Bob Kraft Tom Brady anyone they want. That is against my freedom so for someone so concerned about our freedom and spreading it around the world you seem to be perfectly fine with giving up our freedom. Oh and how did that Patriot Act work out by the way? Did we catch Bin Laden?




One problem at a time. 




This is an insane answer. First of all we do not have the money to go to war with everyone which is why when we go to war we should pick carefully which we did not. We could have stopped genocide from happening; we could have stopped people from continuing to test nukes. But instead we went to war with Iraq for no reason! Completely unprovoked and with out cause. Am I happy Sadam is dead? Yes I am but that doesn’t excuse what we did we had no reason to go to war with Iraq.





No, that's not what I meant but you're stuck on this Bush lied thing so.....





I am stuck on the Bush lied thing? Yes as should you and everyone else. He lied his way into a war and people are dead because of him. You act like oh it’s not such a big deal that he lied. I bet you were all for going after Clinton for lying about a blow job but Bush lying about WMDs and sending us to war is no biggy right? This might be the one point you made that absolutely p isses me off, everyone got so tired of talking about how he lied that you just want to forget it ever happened. Well it did happen and it will be remembered he lied and people died how is that ok?




You're friends are heros.




Yes they are…..

We've already got teachers who can't pass licensing exams suing states over discriminatory standards; do we really want doctors who can't treat you collecting government checks because they graduated from Guadalajarra Tech?

H: So that's how your dog gets his exercise....LOL!!!! I've been meaning to ask!!

      -- "You can call Al Gore a hypocrite if you want but that doesn’t make him wrong. He may not practice what he preaches but that does not make his global warming argument any less true." --

Oh boy!

I am sensing another tectonic shift in the discussion.


We'll be back with more "Rambling Inanity," after these messages . . .

We've been here before.  I don't believe the government is obliged to protect non-procreating couples.  That's aside from the fact I believe it's deviantat behavior.   

You are right if we had a goverment regulated Healthcare system doctors would make less money and therefore the greedy american's who become doctors would choose something else and the doctors skill would drop badly. But is just a example of how bad greed has become a part of American life. Seriously in countrys all over the world people become doctors and not for the reasons most Americans do, we do it because in this country doctors make a lot of money and have a life style attatched to the name doctor. But in other countrys people become doctors for noble reasons like wanting to make a difference or wanting to help sick people. Being a doctor has a different meaning to Americans then it does in other places. So you are right as soon as doctors started making less money we would lose all our youngest and brightest because they would become lawyers instead. greed is what kills us.

.....a boogeyman a la Keyser Soze who "has pulled the greatest trick in convincing the world that he didn't exist.....right on, PM!

I was at a meeting at work a couple weeks ago and this girl next to me had her notebook out and she had written "Food For Goats" in big letters to remind herself to pick up food for her goats on the way home, and I looked at it, then I looked at her and I said, "That would be a great name for a punk band. Food for Goats." I couldn't really tell if she was laughing because what I said was funny or if maybe she just figured me for an idiot, but either way . . .

Leave 'em laughing, that's what I say.


I'm gonna go pray for an end to global warming now.

H: Lady B agrees....."Rambling Inanity" would be a great name for a blues band!!

I think 'Food for Goats' is even better for a punk band....

1 - does that MRI really cost $2000?  No.  Are there too many diagnostic facilities out there making more money than the govt pays out?  no doubt. 

2- if the govt reimburses so little (and they do), it does beg the question - "why would we allow the govt to run the system when while reimbursing claims at a lower level than any private carrier, they still are running medicare and medicaid into the ground. 

3 - we will never stop healthcare cost growth as long as R&D produces products and services that are more advanced, allow us to live longer, function better, and are readily available with minimal financial consequences to utilizers. 

Let me see if I can connect the dots for you.  Government is set up to protect society.  Society is made up of people.  If people don't procreate, there won't be anymore people.  If there are no more people, there is no more society, and consequently, no need for government.

Granted this is not the strongest argument in the world, I'm not denying that, which is why I haven't used it before.  I go with, and reiterate that government is not obliged to protect deviant behavior.  If you and Killa don't believe it's deviant, and it won't lead to more deviant behavior, fine.  I disagree. 


I infer no such thing and I'd appreciate you not taking my statements out of context and making suppositions that were not intended.

I dont know 347 Eroot makes a good point it does sound like you are saying anyone who cant have babies should not be allowed to get married. That might not be how you meant it but that is deffently how it came out. Also I responded to your post yesterday, it was a long response but i look forward to your response......to my response....this is getting tricky lol

Ok, if that is how it came out, I apologize to Enoch.  Whether a couple chooses to/or not/or cannot have children is up to them.  But government should protect those institutions that have the capacity to carry on society.  Again, I fully recognize this is not the strongest argument.

I'm working on yesterday's post from you.  It may be a while though.

Oh I know, it took me like an hour and a half to write that post yesterday lol

No, I told you I did not give Bush a pass on this.  I blame Bush for laying in a course, and Obama for engaging warp drive! 

McCain's support is reinforcement of my belief that he is a RINO.  I voted for him as the lesser of two evils.  So c rap on him all you want.

I was not smearing Obama with excrement. The man is spending like there is no tomorrow.  This is a valid criticism.  Are you telling me that his spending is a good thing?

I'm not trying to force my values on anyone.  It's a fact that polls show MOST Americans believe that abortion is murder.  Liberals know that they must keep this issue in the courts because if it ever gets to the people, it will be defeated.  So we'll see what happens.

I'm against abortion because it's wrong.  Some choices are just wrong.  I'm also against it because I love kids and see them as the future.

Is that the end of the debate?  Why no explanation of why you think people in the womb deseve no protection?  Why don't they have any rights?  You want gays to have rights, why not the innocent?  Why is a woman's right to convenience more important to someone else's right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?  It's either a person or it is not.  I can line up just as many doctors and scientists that believe it is a person as you can for the other viewpoint.  So why not err on the side of life, just in case.  All your arguments for rights of gays, soldiers dying for no good reason show that there is hipocracy if you can't stand up for the innocent.  I have 4 kids.  If any of their lives were threatened, I would not think twice about giving up my life for them.  It's a no-brainer.  However, nowadays, people don't give another person (in the womb) a second thought before they abort a baby.  ok, maybe they do think about it, but over 50,000,000 times, convenience, lifestyle, hate of children, etc, etc, etc wins out.  This is the ultimate selfishness.  Not aborting does have challenges.  But state sponsored  murder happens daily.  I cannot fathom how someone who is pro-gay rights, can't see this.  No disrespect, but I have to say it is hypocritical.

Take a look at this link.  It shows how the Iraqis buried fighter jets into the desert.  Do you think, if they could bury jets in the sand, that they would have a problem burrying barrels in it?  he had demonstrated the capability of making WMD by killing numerous Kurds with chemicals.  You can say he lied if you want, but at worst, it was a misinterpretation of the intelligence (which many democrats saw and believed in the existence of WMD).
http://www.snopes.com/photos/military/sandplanes.asp

Is this because you don't believe that people in the womb are not actually people?

If he did, it's probably not the last time I will be played.  I wasn't expecting him to get a Constitutional Amendment passed.  Overturning Roe v Wade would have been nice, which is where the SCJ come in.  So I'm ok with it, even though I think he could have done more (which is why I said i had an issue with him on it).

So I guess all Christians have to check their Christianity at the door?  When was the last time a democrat checked their secular humanism at the door?  You can't ask a religious person to not be religious once they enter the Capitol.  It's part of who they are.  if they check it at the door, then they are fakes.  BTW, did you know that our form of government is based on the Bible?
For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us.
Isaiah 33:22

No argument there.

How is it interference?  Because you don't agree with it?  Like I said, religious beliefs are part of who you are, how you think, and what judgements you make.  i could no more ask you to stop believing what you believe.

Copy your opinion.  My opinion is that he would not have.  Thanks God we'll never know.

He had already graduated by the time Daddy was president.

Yes, I heard him talking about religion and the Bible.  He was taking the Bible completely out of context, trying to make his point.  By his responses, you could tell, if you know a little about the Bible, that his knowledge concerning it is limited.  Talking about the Bible in a disingenuous way, frosts my cupcakes.  I can't listen to the guy.  If you get something out of watching him, go for it.  To me, he's a fake.

But you believe it.  Rush is saying what he believes (like I said, if he in fact said it).  Just because you wouldn't say it in front of millions is irrelevant.  So you may have more tact than Rush.. So what?  You still believe he should die and hope someone takes him out.  There is no difference deep down inside between the two of you (except that he's a con and your a lib).

I consider abortion US Naziism.

That's because we're the ones standing in their way.

See above link.  Iraq is a big place.  Lots of sand.  Plenty of hiding places.  My guess would be Syria.

Are you saying you believe he lied????lol  Just because you repeat it over and over, it doesn't make it true.

We do have him on the run, living out of caves, eating desert rats, looking over his back. 

Sometimes you have to give up some freedoms so other freedoms can be assured.  you have to weigh the risks.  I would rather have my phone conversations monitored than allow another 3000+ Americans die in a terrorist attack.  Is what your saying on the phone more important than their lives?
Thanks

If I believed he lied, it would be a big deal.  It is a foregone conclusion for you.  Not so for me.

Of course, because that was proven.

Why has nobody in the media come up with concrete evidence as you so suggest?

Very very loosely, yes.  There is much more to society though as you point out.  A school system, a system of government, a health care system, an industrial and economic system, a transportation system and the list goes on.  These things carry on a society and make it thrive.  I don't see gay marriage on the same level.  As for the website, I have no argument that gays have contributed to society in many ways.  I have no problem with civil unions.  I have a problem calling it marriage and putting on the same level as something God ordained.

I am not a strict anti abortionist, but I have always found it hypocritical for a person to be for abortion but against the death penalty. 

I know the party line is that a fetus is not a living being, and I cannot think of a more fallacious (how do you like that word Root?) arguement.