A question about Dungy

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from MVPkilla. Show MVPkilla's posts

    Re: A question about Dungy

    Yapple are you lumping me in with those people? You realize I am the guy onthe side fo teh debate who is against orginized religion right? Or am i misunderstanding you, did you quote me to lump me in with thme or to agree with me im lost? lol


    I am out of here for the night guys i will catch up with yu all tomorrow.
     
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    Re: A question about Dungy

    " I do not need a church to talk with god or to understand that there is something out there bigger then me. I dont need to be told how to think or what i can and can not do. I dont expect everyone to agree with me, this is just the way i see it.  Why would god reveal himself only to the hearts and minds of people? I personally think god reveals himself in all kinds of ways. God is everywhere as far as i am concerned, he is in the air and the trees. How do I know which thoughts are mine and which ones are gods? do you think god is some kind of super hero or something? projecting himself into our minds? You know how i work out which thoughts are mine and which are his? thats easy they are all my thoughts. God didnt give us a brain so he could control it. And you are acting like people wouldnt know who god was without the church and thats not so. Maybe in the beginning we needed to spread the word but right now in 2009 if you dont know who god is you are re tarded." Problem is, there are many people just like you who control Congress, the courts, business, industry and now, even the military is being turned into a traveling tent show. Their beliefs are unshakable and they operate under the security blanket of fear and safety-in-numbers. Anyone who disagrees with them is an unpatriotic whacko. Even those who aren't religious have found it expedient and profitable to pretend to be so. These people make the laws, pass judgment on others and find it easier to make the decision to send young people overseas to get their appendages blown off because they first had a private and privileged consultation with the almighty. You remind me of the tornado survivor. She sits there, among the rubble, thanking the lord for sparing her life...conveniently overlooking her dead neighbors. Who killed them? Were they non-believing sinners or just dumb unfortunate atheists? 
    Posted by Yapple


    Forgive me Yapple but your post sounds like sour grapes more than anything else.
     
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    Re: A question about Dungy

    "What a bunch of wossies discussing god on a football forum no wonder everyone hates new england"

    And if we just talked about football, you'd say we were a bunch of narrow-minded neanderthals.
    If you want to discuss religion with those who probably have little or no interest in football, try the HBO/Bill Maher website.

    MVPkilla: There's been so much written here, I may have lost track of who wrote what. If I placed you in the wrong category, I apologize. However, in general terms, I stand by what I said.


     
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    Re: A question about Dungy

    "Forgive me Yapple but your post sounds like sour grapes more than anything else."

    It's religious people who are guilty of sour grapes. Every day, there is a soothing bombardment of matter-of-fact references to the almighty as if the existence of a supreme being should be taken for granted. Movies, TV shows, books, the internet, celebrities and politicians extolling the virtues of god and athletes pointing at the sky whenever they hit a home run or make a free throw or score a knockout...presumably, against an unworthy infidel.
    Yet, when one person named Bill Maher spits in the wind and makes one movie which questions religion, those of "faith" are up in arms and call for his banishment from the airwaves.
    I'm actually amazed that this thread has lasted as long as this. Threads about religion and race have been removed from the aforementioned Bill Maher's HBO website, which is supposed to be a bastion of free speech and thought. Congratulations Boston Globe.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from prairiemike. Show prairiemike's posts

    Re: A question about Dungy

    You know, that whole pointing-at-the-sky thing actually grinds my gears more than a little. While it may be true that most professional athletes have certainly won the genetic lottery, the notion that any kid of supreme being is responsible for individual success is patently laughable on its face. As a wiser man than me once said, "One cannot serve God and Mammon" (Mammon being money). I'm still waiting for the post-game interview where some goofball says, "Well, we played as hard as we could, but clearly Jesus was on their side today."
     
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    Re: A question about Dungy

    Taz, you say people are the most important thing in existence, and in a sense, you are right - the most important thing we can do in life is to help other people.  But if there is a God within the meaning of the word God - an all powerful being, then by definition he is most important.  How do you know he just created people and then left them on their own?  How is that consistent with your statement that he loves all people?  If he loves them, why would he leave millions of African children to die of malaria every year, or hundreds of thousands of Indonesians to die in a tsunami?  The bottom line is, your concept of God seems as made up as the church's - you have an idea of God that fits your view, and you go with it.  I think that if there is a God who loves humans, he would make himself known objectively, on a consistent basis, and that is what the Bible and the church (yes, the Roman Catholic Church) provide.

    And the Bible discloses some pretty serious sins of the church.  King David slept with someone else's wife and murdered her husband.  The sons of Eli stole from the poor at God's temple.  The first pope discriminated against Gentiles.  And the leaders of the church murdered God's prophets for generation after generation, eventually murdering the Son of God Himself. 

    To cut to the chase, I will ask you, do you ever doubt your beliefs?  People always point out that Christians have nagging doubts that haunt them their whole lives - but don't atheists and non-Christians?  Don't you have doubts that maybe the Bible really is true? 
     
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    Re: A question about Dungy

    MVPKilla,
            Arthur Blank is the owner of the Falcons and knows Michael Vick quite well. In your mind did Blank's race come into play when he offered to be a "character witness" for Vick? Tony Dungy has stated he's interested in working with black men in prisons for a number of reasons. What the f**! is wrong with him choosing to visit Michael Vick in prison?!

    It's impossible to know whether Tony Dungy would visit a "white player" in prison convicted of doing what Mike did, because there are no former NFL players in prison on animal cruelty charges. Dog fighting has been going on in this country and worldwide for decades. Mike isn't the first to do it and he won't be the last. 

    Rolling Stone did a story on kids in Philly several years ago and how they used dogs in fighting. To some degree, Mike was right about it being a part of his culture.

    Full disclosure: I'm not a fan of Michael Vick or Tony Dungy, but anyone who thinks dogs aren't abused WORLDWIDE should take a look at the film Amores Perros.




    So I was just reading some more on the whole Mike Vick story and how Arthur Blank and Tony Dungy would both be charictor wittnesses for Vick if need be to get him back into the league and it dawned on me, do any of you think good old Saint Dungy would be doing this for a white player? If a all star white QB was caught doing what Vick did and sent to jail would Dungy be all about saving his soul or whatvere the hell it is he thinks he is doing? I do not think he would, I think this is all about the first black head coach to win a super bowl trying to help one of teh biggest star black QBs in the game. And please for the love god try to understand that i am not a racist person and thats not why i am saying this i just truly dont buy into the Saint Dungy act. Everyone has a angle always even Dungy. I do not think that if a white QB of teh same super star caliber was to do what Vick did that he would lift a finger to help him. Does anyone agree with this? If not i am sure you will let me have it and I get that but seriously guys its just something that creeped into my head while reading all these "saint dungy helping vick" storys that make me sick and i wanted to see if anyone else felt the same way. Am I way off or do you think i have something? What say you?
    Posted by MVPkilla


     
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    Re: A question about Dungy

    Do I smell incense in here?  Why has this turned into a referendum on religion?
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from EnochRoot. Show EnochRoot's posts

    Re: A question about Dungy

    Taz - you believe in God but not organized religion - why?  Why would God reveal himself only in the inner hearts and minds of people, rather than objectively through, say, words that all people could follow for all time?  Your way doesn't make sense to me - if your only knowledge of God is when you're having quiet thoughts, how do you know which thoughts are God and which are just your own?  What I'm saying is, if there is a God, and he cares about people and wants to help them, don't you think he'd make it obvious to everyone who he is, rather than leave it to people to just figure it out on their own?
    Posted by themightypatriots

    Why would you think religion is a path to god? For all the arbitrariness you describe in Taz' method, yours is just as arbitrary.

     
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    Re: A question about Dungy

    Sorry, I thought you were saying you commune with God privately, through quiet moments or whatever, so I said that stuff about your thoughts and all.  Anyway, the same principle applies if you say God reveals himself through nature or whatever - what does that tell you about him?  That he loves humans because he gives us sunshine, flowers, and grassy meadows?  Or that he hates humans because he gives us (the 5 billion who don't live in the first world) famine, pestilence and natural disaster?  What I'm saying is, if there is a God, he's the most important thing in existence, so I'd like to know as much about him as I can, and the Bible says a lot.  So what do you claim to know about him? Oh and as for the sins of the church, you don't need to look at recent history to see it.  Flip to almost any random page in the Bible, Old or New Testament, and the pages will be filled with the sins of the members of the church, be they the leaders or the slaves.  But God still commands that we worship him through the church, despite the sins of its members because, according to the Bible, God reveals himself through and is present in those who believe in him - so you can know God by being in a community of believers.
    Posted by themightypatriots

    I am not sure I understand your argument. The Bible is a human construct. Why is it any better than, say, a tree, for communicating with god? That is simply the path that you have chosen and I would suppose you didn't really choose it, but were inculcated into it at an early age. I don't mean to offend. I do mean to challenge. Just because you feel it to be good for you doesn't mean other paths are invalid. As a matter of fact, by confining yourself to a single-source, there is a stronger chance that you won't ever know god.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from EnochRoot. Show EnochRoot's posts

    Re: A question about Dungy

    You know, that whole pointing-at-the-sky thing actually grinds my gears more than a little. While it may be true that most professional athletes have certainly won the genetic lottery, the notion that any kid of supreme being is responsible for individual success is patently laughable on its face. As a wiser man than me once said, "One cannot serve God and Mammon" (Mammon being money). I'm still waiting for the post-game interview where some goofball says, "Well, we played as hard as we could, but clearly Jesus was on their side today."
    Posted by prairiemike


    I thought by pointing at the sky they were acknowledging Biggie.
     
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    Re: A question about Dungy

    Do I smell incense in here?  Why has this turned into a referendum on religion?
    Posted by agcsbill


    Now that is funny!
     
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    Re: A question about Dungy



    Killa, my responses in red:  I've taken out yours and my original comments to save space and just left your most recent.

    ( You are right when you say the bible is full of wisdom, it has many storys that apply to everyday life and I get that but you can not compeer the bible to the books you have listen above, its just not the same. People don’t devote their lives to following Aesop’s Fables and people don’t kill in the name of Sun Tsu’s   Art of war. Millions of people all over the world follow the bible and that sets it aside. 12000 years ago people thought differently and did not understand things the way we do now and that to me makes it outdated. Now is it a worth while read? Yes it is but should I devote my life to its teachings? I don’t think so.)  

    I wasn't comparing the worth of the Bible to these other book.  In fact, to me there is no comparison.  I was just saying the Bible is worthwhile even though it is old.  Wisdom doesn't get outdated.


    (Like I said before you are a believer so of course that’ s how you would see it, but men wrote it and then the Church rewrote it. Hell spend one afternoon watching the History Channel and you can see all the corrupt stuff that has gone down through the church. Stuff that was left out of the bible, entire passages were excluded from it because they didn’t fall in line with how the church wanted its people to think.   Men are human and humans are greedy and corrupt so even you have to admit that somewhere along the way human nature had to pop his head into the picture.)

    Mighty had an excellent point in that the Bible doesn't hide it's dirty laundry.  It has to air it out to prove that redemption is possible (even Vick). 



    ( That make’s sense and I do believe you when you say you do not hate gays. But we are not talking about you by yourself we are talking about your entire church and faith in general. And you can not sit here and say that the majority of people who hate gays are church going people. Now I am not saying all gay haters are religious people but many are and that puts a stain on everyone who follows that same faith. Like it or not if you belong to the same group of people that bombs abortion clinics and hates gays then sometimes you will be lumped in with those people because you are a part of such a wide spread group. )

    Many people (not just Church going people) hate gays.  To say it is only the Church is a misnomer (not saying that you said that though).  I've been, continue to be, and will forever be lumped with people I don't want to.  I'm sure you have too.  If people are so shallow that they cannot see that there are differences of opinion in the Church, then that is their problem.  I can only try to influence one person at a time.  I do believe people look at all the bad things in the Church as an excuse to not have to attend.  It's inconvenient.  Now if it were held at Gillette stadium.....

    ( People don’t choose to be gay they are just gay it’s just who they are. A fat person chooses to be fat when they refuse to watch what they eat or go to the gym, that is a choice but gay people are born gay and that’s just who they are and there is nothing wrong about it. I get what you are saying I just don’t agree. It is just as wrong to persecute gays as it is to persecute people of color.   Gays don’t choose to be gays just like black people don’t choose to be black that’s just the way they are born.)  

    Sexuality is a choice.  Different things (both good and bad) in youth affect our choices.  Like I said, I know there is debate on this point, but I haven't seen any credible evidence to the contrary.

    ( You are right, I don’t know that they were power hungry so I take that back, but   have to disagree when you say that the church doesn’t tell people how to think, they most defiantly do. They tell you how to think and how to live, maybe not all church going people live exactly the way the church would want them to live but if they had it there way you would all follow blindly.)

    Ok, I'll agree with that, but it is still your choice to accept or reject.

    ( And if I can ask what arguments are put forth? When was te last time you were in church during a sermon and someone stood up and challenged what the preacher was saying?)

    About 10 years ago, really (but she was mentally disturbed so I can't really count that time.  I'm not making fun of her either.  She was institutionalized by the state.) So your point is taken.  But I regularly come out of Church and think, well the preacher missed that one, it doesn't line up with the Bible.  The Bible is the plumb line for me.  

    (I have never seen anyone question anything at Church in my entire life. So what argument is put forth exactly? And I read the bible when I was a young man and I had not made up my mind on religion at that time so you are wrong about that.)

    Sorry

     (If anything I made my choice to not be a part of organized religion after reading it. I do think a person needs the church to speak with god and I do not think god needs or wants us to spend our small time on this Earth worshiping him or anyone else for that matter. That’s just the way I see it. I do not see a need for the church what so ever, maybe 12000 years ago people needed answers and someone to guide them but if I want to talk to god I talk to him and that is that.)

    The Bible says "Do not forsake the assembling of yourselves together".  We need Church because we need each other.

    (Did you just call me a demon? Really? So because I don’t follow your faith I am a demon? That’s a real bad way to look at it. People are different that does not make me or anyone else a demon. It does not matter if I believe if I don’t act on it? Yea according to you and your church but I don’t care what your church thinks so it matters to me, I can believe in god and not devote my life to him, that’s the way I look at it and I believe everyone has a right to see god in their own way. If I was a Muslim would I be a demon for acting on my faith in a different way? Do I have to be the same as you in order to not be a demon? BS. Not everyone see’s god in the same way. You actually managed to offend me on this one unless I took what you said in the wrong way but that’s the way it looked to me.)

    NOOOOOOO.  What I'm saying is that demons believe in God, but their belief means nothing because it doesn't lead to following God.  If your belief in God doesn't lead you to following God, you faith is like that of demons.  It means nothing.  I was not calling you a demon and I apologize if it came across that way.  Belief MUST cause us to BE something.  It must cause us to respond to God.


    (are you kidding me? Jesus loved people enough to die for them it has nothing to do with the church.)

    People are the Church.  It is not some building, it is the people in the building.


    (Get over yourself I mean the church not you of course. It has its problems? Like letting their priests get away with touching little boys? How long was that going on before they put a stop to it? The very men put in charge of teaching kids “the way to god” were touching them making sure they kept quiet about it. That’s more then a small problem. What about the fact that the church led a campaign in like 17 th century or whenever where they killed any women who thought for herself and proclaimed that they were witches, were those women not gods children? And I won’t ever get into the despicable actions of the church during the holocaust in WW2. Those seem like more then just a   few little problems.)

    I never said little.  But you can't throw the baby out with the bath water.  Besides, were not in Church because we're perfect, we're in Church because we need salvation.

    ( I am glad as well it’s a good conversation)

    Yeah, and Yapple, I agree with you about the Globe letting this go on.  It's amazing.

    ( You get much respect from em as well, its an honor to be in this debate with someone who spent 24 years fighting for my freedom so I truly respect you for that)

    I appreciate that

    (Are you including Science as technology? Because science has progressed greatly in the last 12000 years and Science can explain and give answers to many of the questions people had 12000 years ago. In fact if we had our science now back then I am sure the bible would not have last this long. People wanted answers they didn’t have so they followed the bible but science can answer most of those questions now. We do still have murders and r apes and all that you are correct but that is human nature. Some people are evil and some people are not. The Church can’t fix that and neither can anything else. But you know what how many church going people beat their kids? How many church going people r ape there kids or other kids? Or kill themselves? Or kill others? You act as if these crimes are beyond religious people but in fact how many times a year does someone blow up an abortion clinic or some other thing.   I am just trying to say its not like evil does not show up with religious people as well. Just because a person goes to church or doesn’t go to church does not mean anything in the grand scheme of things, some people are evil whether they find religion or not. But I have gotten off topic, my main point is that science has progressed over the last 12000 years which in turn has helped us as people progress.)

    Science and technology cannot change human nature.  Jesus can though.  I am a recipient of that change.  I am in no way perfect, but He can definitely change people.

    (If I were a gay man I would be insulted that you just compeered one man marrying another man to a person marrying a dog. Really? So now being gay is in the same category as b estiality? And by the way you can legally marry your pet in some states and it is not nearly as big a topic as gay marriage. Which says a lot to me, people don’t care if you marry your dog but two men getting married and it threatens your way of life? That is so backwards. And its only a sin to you and other’s like you to me there is nothing wrong with gays getting hitched what so ever. And for you to compeer gay marriage to those creeps who want to molest little kids is just wrong. Two adult people entering into marriage of there own free will is completely different then a older man taking advantage and or brain washing a little kid into thinking its ok for an adult to have sex with a kid. Do you really consider them the same thing? If so that is screwed up)

    Not the same thing, however, knowing human nature and its propensity for more vileness, I can guarantee that is where we're heading.  Why will these people be any less deserving of marriage rights?  You wait and see.

    ( So we all have the right to pursue happiness but not gays? Is that what you are saying? You might be right we might not ever be truly happy but we all have a right to try and make the best of things and TRY TO BE HAPPY and you wotn even allow gays the same right to TRY to be happy with each other. And why because you think it’s a sin? Who the heck are you? (I don’t mean you I just mean people in general) So you think it’s a sin? Great for you why should what you think have any bearing on what two adults want to do with their lives? What makes you so important? )

    It's not me, it's the majority.  When they get beat at the polls, they take it to courts.  What is wrong with civil unions?  Why do they have to call it marriage?  It's a Biblical term defined in the Bible as man and woman.

    ( All I was doing was restating a point that Pmike made which was, if you belong to a group of people like say the KKK and you don’t hate jews but the majority of people in the KKK do hate the Jews then you will be lumped in with them because you choose to be a prt of that group. You might not hate gay people but many inside your church do and so if you are a member of that religion you will be lumped in with them. If I was a member of a group and I didn’t agree with something as big as hating gays I would leave that group.)

    I don't see a lot of hate for gays as you say and I've been in Church the majority of my life.  I think you may be a victim of the liberal media that likes to paint the Church as a bunch of wackos.

    (I don’t avoid the church for that reason, I avoid the church because I do not believe in organized religion. I don’t need the church to tell me how to warship god I can do that on my own thank you.)

    "Do not forsake teh assembling of yourselves together"

    ( Very true I have no proof he is one of those people but because he is a part of a church that hates gay or has many people within it that hate gays he will be counted among them. If he does not like it he should find a new church.)

    Unfortunately, the liberal media has painted just about every church in the same light.

    ( I am sorry did I miss something, are gay people trying to make it so “normal” people cant get married? Did they spare head a campighn to try and make it so Tony Dungy couldn’t get married? No they didn’t it was him and his people who did it so that’s why they are hater’s and gays are not. Gays are not trying to stop you from doing anything but you are trying to stop them from something so that is how it is different.)

    As I said, it was started by God and defined in the Bible.  I cannot just go and change the definition of a word in the dictionary.  Why do I have to let them change the definitioon of marriage just to feel right about themselves?

    ( Please don’t tell me you are a supporter of the worst president to ever sit in the white house? But you are right that is another topic for another time.)

    I see him as one of the best.  No attacks since 911 on the homeland.  Maybe not always the best methods, but you or I might not have done as well in teh same position.


    (You are right he never said he wouldn’t help white people, which is why I have said over and over again that mostly I am mad at the papers and reporter who keep saying stuff like “Dungy is such a good person for going out of his way to help young black people” that drives me insane, I am sorry but I work with kids, and I don’t do it because I like helping white kids, or because I want to help black kids I do it because I want to help kids in general. All kids, skin color is not an issue. And I also don’t buy into the whole “young black men have it so much harder” everyone everywhere has it hard and everyone could use a hand skin shouldn’t have anything to do with it.)

    Well then maybe your argument is with the writers who say this stuff and not with Dungy at all.

     
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    Re: A question about Dungy

    "Religion is the opiate of the masses."....Great...I get to spend the only life I have surrounded by stoned out wackos......Welcome back Tom...Go Pats....
     
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    Re: A question about Dungy

    "Science and technology cannot change human nature."

    No. But science and technology make it possible to live longer, healthier ( we can discuss "side effects" and nukes another time ) and more comfortably and provide the opportunity to pursue a meaningful and rewarding career and have more leisure time in which to wonder about why things happen out there in the galaxy. The great masses of people who live in poor countries have no direct contact with science and technology and cling to religion because they assume that it will guarantee that they spend eternity in a luxurious paradise with paved roads. Their well-fed leaders and clergy are more than happy to keep the people stifled with squalor and poverty while they reside in gaudy, air-conditioned palaces decorated by classic, Renaissance masters and equipped with internet access and HDTV and make occasional, obligatory public appearances to assure the people that they shouldn''t lose faith because money is evil and their favorite non-existent deity loves them and is waiting to clasp them to his divine bosom. 
    Other groups, even in so-called civilized countries, simply reject science and technology because it makes them appear to be profound. Scientists like Einstein and Hawking have frequently mentioned god as if they don't want to sound too clinical and scientific and condescending. 
    Al Gore makes a movie which presents 2 hours of scientific evidence about global warming. At the end of it, he suggests several steps you can take to prevent global warming...one of which is "Pray". This proves conclusively that neither science nor religion can change human nature. Go Pats! 
       
     
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    Re: A question about Dungy

    "Science and technology cannot change human nature." No. But science and technology make it possible to live longer, healthier ( we can discuss "side effects" and nukes another time ) and more comfortably and provide the opportunity to pursue a meaningful

    What makes it meaningful?

    and rewarding career

    I take it by rewarding you mean at the end of it all you get to die and go into nothingness

     and have more leisure time in which to wonder about why things happen out there in the galaxy.

    Well if there is no God, why should I care?  My 70 odd years of wondering won't provide me or anyone else any actionable answers

    The great masses of people who live in poor countries have no direct contact with science and technology and cling to religion because they assume that it will guarantee that they spend eternity in a luxurious paradise with paved roads.

    Paved with Gold I might add.

    Their well-fed leaders and clergy are more than happy to keep the people stifled with squalor and poverty while they reside in gaudy, air-conditioned palaces decorated by classic, Renaissance masters and equipped with internet access and HDTV and make occasional, obligatory public appearances to assure the people that they shouldn''t lose faith because money is evil and their favorite non-existent deity loves them and is waiting to clasp them to his divine bosom.

    Do you have a list of countries?

    Other groups, even in so-called civilized countries, simply reject science and technology because it makes them appear to be profound.

    Which countries?

    Scientists like Einstein and Hawking have frequently mentioned god as if they don't want to sound too clinical and scientific and condescending. 

    If they mentioned Him frequently, maybe they actually believed in Him.

    Al Gore makes a movie which presents 2 hours of scientific evidence about global warming. At the end of it, he suggests several steps you can take to prevent global warming...one of which is "Pray".

    Did he also mention not to jet set around in a hydrocarbon-sucking, enlarging carbon footprinting, noisy business jet?

    This proves conclusively that neither science nor religion can change human nature.

    Ok, I'll go with that, but God can change human nature.

    Go Pats!    

    Amen
    Posted by Yapple
     
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    Re: A question about Dungy

    God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son!"

    Abe said, "Man, you must be puttin' me on."

    God said, "No."

    Abe said, "What?"

    God said, "You can do what you want Abe, but . . .
                  Next time you see me coming you better run."

    Abe said, "Where you want this killing done?"

    God said, "Out on Highway 61."


    Cool

                                                                                     Robert Zimmerman
     
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    Re: A question about Dungy

    Not many people can hear God the way Abraham did.  Interestingly, Abraham answered his son's question (Dad, where's the sacrifice?) by saying "...My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering..." (Gen 22:8)  not only providing a ram to take his son's place, but also prophesying that Jesus would be sacrificed.  Incidentally, Golgotha is right near route 60 in Jerusalem.  Bob Dillon was almost a prophet!  Probably couldn't find anything to rhyme with 60.
     
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    Re: A question about Dungy

    Great to see this still going strong, I will reply as soon as I can. Its good to finally see some people in here who have my back lol Enroch and Yapple that is.
     
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    Re: A question about Dungy

    Great to see this still going strong, I will reply as soon as I can. Its good to finally see some people in here who have my back lol Enroch and Yapple that is.
    Posted by MVPkilla


    No worries. The only problem with atheism and agnosticism is the lack of collaboration and cohesion. I mean from the atheist's point of view, why get together to not worship something that doesn't exist. 

    I sometimes waver toward atheism, but am of the mindset you describe where my internal voice is the voice of god. If he does exist that would seem the easiest way to reach out to everyone.
     
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    Re: A question about Dungy

    Taz, you say people are the most important thing in existence, and in a sense, you are right - the most important thing we can do in life is to help other people.  (You do not need the church to help people, I help people when ever I can and I am not a church going man. I coach football, I volunteer my time with a youth group, and if I can get personal for a second I have been helping to raise my dead sisters son since he was 3 years old. And I didn’t need the church to tell to do any of these things I did them because I wanted to.)    But if there is a God within the meaning of the word God - an all powerful being, then by definition he is most important. (That’s the way you see it and you are allowed to see it that way, but I think human being are the most important thing. That is just the way I see it.)     How do you know he just created people and then left them on their own?  (I don’t know anything that is just what I believe. How do you know everything in the bible is true? How do you know that there is even a god? The answer is you don’t know but you have faith that what you believe is true. And that goes for me as well. What I believe is what I believe I don’t have to know anything for sure because I have faith in what I believe. Isn’t that what religion is all about? Faith in something you can’t see or touch? Well why should my faith be any different from yours?)    How is that consistent with your statement that he loves all people?  If he loves them, why would he leave millions of African children to die of malaria every year, or hundreds of thousands of Indonesians to die in a tsunami?   (Are you really arguing that god does not love all his children? Is that really the argument you are trying to make? Because I was under the impression that even in the church they said that god loves all his children so why are you acting so outraged that I said it?  And further more, just because the world is not perfect and people suffer and people die does not mean they are not loved by god. Are you suggesting that god does not love African children? Is that really the way they teach you in your church? The way I see it people die and people suffer because that is the way of the world. I do not think god has anything to do with it. Like I said I believe god made man and god gave man a brain and that’s where he left us to our own devices. You might think god controls the weather but I think that the weather is an entity of its own and it is explainable through science and has nothing to do with god. You might think differently but that is how I see it.)   The bottom line is, your concept of God seems as made up as the church's - you have an idea of God that fits your view, and you go with it. (You are right, my concept of god is just as made up as the churches, the difference is I don’t try and make millions of other people follow my line of thinking. This is how I see things and I don’t expect anyone to see it the same way. I am not having this conversation to try and convert people to the church of MVPKilla lol.)    I think that if there is a God who loves humans, he would make himself known objectively, on a consistent basis, and that is what the Bible and the church (yes, the Roman Catholic Church) provide.  (And you have a right to believe what ever you want just as I have that same right. You think that god would make himself known objectively on a consistent basis and that is what the bible and church provide? When was the last time god let himself be known? Did you take a picture with your cell phone? You act as if because you go to church god reveals himself to you but not to none believers and that is very short sighted. I think god reveals himself to everyone on a daily basis its just not in way you would normally think. You don’t need church for that. And also where is all this objectivity you speak of? The last time I checked the church was not very objective, they have a agenda and they work to further their own agenda how exactly is that objective?)

    And the Bible discloses some pretty serious sins of the church.  King David slept with someone else's wife and murdered her husband.  The sons of Eli stole from the poor at God's temple.  The first pope discriminated against Gentiles.  And the leaders of the church murdered God's prophets for generation after generation, eventually murdering the Son of God Himself. 
      (Yea if you think that the church has revealed all its “sins” openly in the bible you are being naïve. They have committed far more “sins” then the stories in their book. Is it in the bible their lack of action during the holocaust? Or the thousands of innocent women they killed in the 17th century? Does it say in the bible that the church has been covering up its pedophiles in its own priesthood for years and years allowing young kids all over the place to be molested by the very people we trusted with are kids? Is that in the bible? No the only things they list are the sins from 12000 years ago. How about you go ahead and update the “sins” section of the bible before you start talking about how open they are about their mistakes. No operation that has been going on as long as the church can last so long with out leaving a few skeletons in its closet. )

    To cut to the chase, I will ask you, do you ever doubt your beliefs?
     (If you are asking me if I sometimes doubt whether or not there is a god then my answer is yes, I like many people have had times in my life were I doubted that there was a god. But if you re asking me if I have ever doubted my faith and my distain for all organized religion then my answer is no. I have faith in my beliefs the same way you do and although I have had times in my life where I doubted god himself I have never doubted myself. )    People always point out that Christians have nagging doubts that haunt them their whole lives - but don't atheists and non-Christians? ( See my answer above)      Don't you have doubts that maybe the Bible really is true?  (nope, I have no doubts what so ever that the bible although full of lessons and wisdom is nothing but a work of fiction. Does this work of fiction mean well? Yes it does and I am sure it has done loads of good for some people but to me it is not something I would devote my life to. The bible to me is nothing but a very good and very useful work of fiction. No offense but you asked.)
     
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    Re: A question about Dungy

    Taz, you say people are the most important thing in existence, and in a sense, you are right - the most important thing we can do in life is to help other people.     (You do not need the church to help people, I help people when ever I can and I am not a church going man. I coach football, I volunteer my time with a youth group, and if I can get personal for a second I have been helping to raise my dead sisters son since he was 3 years old. And I didn’t need the church to tell to do any of these things I did them because I wanted to.)      ...
    Posted by MVPkilla

    + 1. Excellent post.
     
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    Re: A question about Dungy

    It is nice to get a few people on this side of teh debate, thanks EnochRoot. ia m going to replay to 347's post soon so stay tuned lol

     
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    Re: A question about Dungy

    (...but I think human being are the most important thing. That is just the way I see it.)      

    That is like saying the computer program is more important than the computer programmer.  How can we be more important than God?  that is inflating our importance in the universe to overlord status.

    (I don’t know anything that is just what I believe. How do you know everything in the bible is true? How do you know that there is even a god? The answer is you don’t know but you have faith that what you believe is true. And that goes for me as well. What I believe is what I believe I don’t have to know anything for sure because I have faith in what I believe. Isn’t that what religion is all about? Faith in something you can’t see or touch? Well why should my faith be any different from yours?)  

    There are ways to prove the existence of God with logic.  i would recommend to everyone a google search on "The uncaused cause".  it's very interesting and follows logic principles.  this is just one of the arguments for His existence.

    (Are you really arguing that god does not love all his children? Is that really the argument you are trying to make?)

    All people are not God's children.  Politicians (especially Senator Kerry during his failed (thank you God) bid to become President) love to say we're all God's children.  This is unsupported Biblically.  Jesus told the Pharisees "You are of your father, the devil".  Even Churches get this wrong.  It's a nice pie in the sky type of thought, but a complete lie from the devil.  If he can get us all to think that we're God's children, then he can dupe us into believing our behavior means nothing because we're all going to heaven.  truth is, (according to the Bible) that God is God to everyone but Father only to those who are born again.  I know that will ruffle some feathers, but that's what the Bible says.  When your parents called you in for supper when you were a kid, did all the other kids in the neighborhood come with you and sit down at the table?  No.  You and your siblings showed up.  Same thing with God.  When He blows the trumpet, only His children will be allowed to the table.  Not because of anything righteous they have done, but rather what He has done for them.  Now, like human parents, God and the devil have some good kids and bad kids.  i know some children of the devil that I love to hang out with.  I also know some children of God I can't stand.  Doesn't matter though.  heaven is the ultimate "it's who you know" place.  Doesn't matter how screwed up your life was, if your God's child, you get in.  If not, bring your asbestos underwear.

    (I am not having this conversation to try and convert people to the church of MVPKilla lol.)   

    Do you meet at Gillette Stadium?????


    ( And also where is all this objectivity you speak of? The last time I checked the church was not very objective, they have a agenda and they work to further their own agenda how exactly is that objective?)

    The agenda of the Church, as Jesus laid it out, is to get as many peopl into heaven as possible.

    (Yea if you think that the church has revealed all its “sins” openly in the bible you are being naïve. They have committed far more “sins” then the stories in their book. )

    The things you mention hapened after the Bible was completed.  There is much documentation of the Church's misconduct after the Bible was complete, so to say it's not in there is a non-argument.  Nothing will ever be added to the Bible at this point. the last book was written at the end of the first century.  However, I'm sure there will be plenty of documentation on the goings-on of the Church from here on out, just not in the Bible.

    (...where I doubted god himself I have never doubted myself. ) 

    I never doubt God but I often doubt myself, human nature and all....

    (nope, I have no doubts what so ever that the bible although full of lessons and wisdom is nothing but a work of fiction. Does this work of fiction mean well? Yes it does and I am sure it has done loads of good for some people but to me it is not something I would devote my life to. The bible to me is nothing but a very good and very useful work of fiction. No offense but you asked.)
    Posted by MVPkilla

    Jewish book of f a i r y tales or Word of God??  It reads too much like history to be fiction.  How can you account for all the prophecies that have come true?  Your more of a man of faith than I am if you believe that it's all coincidence.  If god is real, then I want to know Him more than anything.  Imagine being tight with the entity who created it all!
     
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    Re: A question about Dungy

            -- "Imagine being tight with the entity who created it all!" --


    Just look what it did for Job!
     
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