In response to mthurl's comment:

This is where my hope lies.  I'm surprised Vollmer hasn't been signed yet but there's still time on the clock.  A lot can happen between now and 4pm Monday.  Then the real fun begins!

In response to bredbru's comment:

Ha!  Don't we all!!!

The first guy Belichick targeted last off season was Red Bryant, so we know this to be true, he resigned with Seattle so we were left with the options we had at that point.  For those wanting us to be in a rush to sign players understand that the first players signed will be by teams that are desperate, no we didn't win a Super Bowl ring last season but the Pat's are far from desperate.  The market will determine what players like Vollmer, Talib and Welker are worth, after the draft the money for these guys starts to dry up, so the onus will be on them to sign somewhere, negotiations are a two way street.

We need a monster defensive tackle, I've been asking for this what seems forever, at least since Seymour was moved and Ty Warren's injury effectively ended his career.  Toughness along the front is what has been missing, the ability to collapse a pocket and intimidate opposing offenses, creating flexibility to allow our linebackers room to roam and make plays instead of hamstringing them in coverage that goes on forever because there is NO pressure up the middle.  

I've been hearing for years about how the Pat's defense can't cover and it's a load of BS, they can't sack... period.  Check the stats.

In response to wozzy's comment:

They can't cover terribly well either...

The defense needs an infusion of talent, toughness, and instincts. The only position I'd feel comfortable with going forward is the LB spot. Between Hightower, Mayo, Spikes, and hopefully a cover LB they add this offseason, I feel pretty good about where they're at. The DE/OLB spot is also secured going forward with Jones, Nink, Bequette, and Francis. I really like McCourty at FS, and I think he's the answer there.

At that point, you're looking at needing another safety, preferably a tough, hard-hitting intimidator, along with lots of CB talent and depth. They also desperately need a good interior lineman or two. Someone who can play next to Wilfork, be a physical presence, and push the pocket. I like Love and Deaderick, but they're role-players at best. If you look at the best defensive teams these days, you see teams that have nasty, aggressive front-7s. I think our LBs are there, I like our DEs a lot, and Wilfork is Wilfork. But we need another DT or two to have the full package. Couple that with the aforementioned secondary changes, and this defense is certainly much better, and probably playing at a level where they can win you a SB, even if Brady and the offense have an off-day.

The offense can come last. Add some youth at the WR position and see about upgrading the interior OL, but only after the defense has been attended to.

In response to dreighver's comment:

They can't be judged on coverage alone when all the other elements for a successful defense don't exist. 
Can they use another safety, yes... but it starts up front.

Hey wozzy.  I don't think the Pats have their DTs rushing the passer so much as it is for containment.  They seem to have a different philosophy for their DTs.  The pass rush comes from the edges so another DE perhaps? 

It's hard to figure out what's missing on this team, the rush or the coverage.  Talib and Dennard seem to do well and things fell apart when Talib went down.  So, I'm making my judgement on that.  I would agree a better pass rush would be nice though.  Both spots are hurting.

In response to wozzy's comment:

Totally agree and the year before they went after Bryant, the first thing they did was trade for Haynesworth...that was the very first thing they did.

I can see it again - Belichick values this position and he should - we will make a splash in that spot. 

Long story short, basically the players I would have wanted (Melton and Spencer) have been franchised.

In response to wozzy's comment:

till we got talib (and moved moccourty to safety we could do neither.

In response to garytx's comment:

 

Hey wozzy.  I don't think the Pats have their DTs rushing the passer so much as it is for containment.  They seem to have a different philosophy for their DTs.  The pass rush comes from the edges so another DE perhaps? 

It's hard to figure out what's missing on this team, the rush or the coverage.  Talib and Dennard seem to do well and things fell apart when Talib went down.  So, I'm making my judgement on that.  I would agree a better pass rush would be nice though.  Both spots are hurting.

 

 hey  gartx,

"I don't think the Pats have their DTs rushing the passer so much as it is for containment.  They seem to have a different philosophy for their DTs.  The pass rush comes from the edges so another DE perhaps? "

 

agreed

 

 the rush or the coverage.

 

both!

 Talib and Dennard seem to do well and things fell apart when Talib went down.  So, I'm making my judgement on that.  I would agree a better pass rush would be nice though.  Both spots are hurting.

agreed.

#1 get  a legit edge pass rsuher opp jones

#2 add a big #1 and #2 cb (to go along with dennard and dowling

#3 get a big outgside wr with big hands who cna separate and pluck tghe ball in traffic

 

after that the gravy is improvign the o line, safety, speedy cover lb

In response to garytx's comment:

Look at it this way, even back in the old days of the 3/4; Ted Washington, Seymour, Ty Warren, Keith Trayor or Vince were all behemoth men who required the attention of two linemen opposite them, whether it was to run block on them or stop them from pushing you into your own QB... now ask yourself, outside of Wilfork who do we have now that is that player?  Answer = none.

Even in our old two gap system the prime directive was protect your two gaps, but once you've determined that the play is either a pass or a run the object was to collapse the pocket and get to the ball.  Pass rush is ONLY possible from the edge when those interior blockers are occupied.  Every player outside of Wilfork can be handled by a single guard which leaves tackles free to snuff outside rushers and in case you haven't noticed, tightends who are free to run wild in the pass game have a field day against us because they're not asked to stay home and block.  

You build your team from the inside out.  Our defense in the old days was built on #1 draft picks at DT.

In response to wozzy's comment:

The best comment in a long while, IMO. Defense wins. Vince is being manhandled, the ones beside him are good run stopping jags but that is not getting it done. Push that pocket from inside/out as wozzy says, every fraction of a second counts. That will help the edge rushes, the D'backs in cover, unsettle the QB, etc. Three and outs will increase dramatically.

Every D'Coord and QB knows this deficiency in the Pats D'line. Finding two (wish) behemoth and strong D'Linemen will do wonders pushing the pocket. The current LB'rs are all gap guys rather than cover to - sort of- make up for this deficiency and only Mayo goes sideline to sideline effectively in run/pass stop but too late after a 5+ gain. Ninck and Jones will be all pros if the Pats do this, both have good motors. Get them where it counts, loss of down, yards, TO, etc. That helps the O getting back on the field = points, clock..... Doing this makes everyone better.

Have a good day ... :-)

In response to wozzy's comment:

And they were pretty high picks too.  I agree with the inside out business.  It's very common football sense stuff.  The problem is where the Pats select year in and year out.  Those DTs and DEs are high picks.  This year it looks pretty good depthwise at DT and I agreed with you originally on this but I forgot about Armstead.  So now I turn my head to a DE or CB.  Armstead needs his day to show his wares.  The pass rush still needs attention and coverage does as well.  Take the best player available, either DE or CB when the pick comes up.  

What it comes down to is this I guess.  Should they roll the dice on Armstead and bypass the DT position on draft day with the other needs they have?

In response to bredbru's comment:
[QUOTE]

In response to garytx's comment:

#1 get  a legit edge pass rsuher opp jones  -  

#2 add a big #1 and #2 cb (to go along with dennard and dowling  -  

#3 get a big outgside wr with big hands who cna separate and pluck tghe ball in traffic  -

bredbru - I don't disagree with any of this and agree with all of it.  These are high skill level, high dollar positions though.  The Pats get bit twice here as this skill set is a top 15 pick and you pay a premium  in FA.   

 

 

In response to garytx's comment:

Who we draft at #29 will depend upon how successful we are resigning our own FAs as well as how successful we are in FA. Since we only have 5 draft picks (two of which are 7th rounders) there is the distinct possibility that we may trade out of the first round.  Then too, perhaps Mallet becomes an important trade chip to increase our selections.

While Armstead and Vega are unknows as far as their potential contribution to the Pats deficiencies we could be surprised by their value. Despite the "what-ifs" we need to stick with our first premise of rebuilding a better DL. That too depends upon the value of the players available at #29 or in the event of a trade-down the best NEED values on the board. We shouldn't REACH just to conform to a predraft plan!

At this stage of the draft process it's only speculation as to what is needed vs what's available. Supposedly we want to be active in FA yet resigning our own FA may deplete our available cash. Perhaps BB won't even surprise us with curious selections when the time comes?

In response to moskk's comment:

 

 

Who we draft at #29 will depend upon how successful we are resigning our own FAs as well as how successful we are in FA. Since we only have 5 draft picks (two of which are 7th rounders) there is the distinct possibility that we may trade out of the first round.  Then too, perhaps Mallet becomes an important trade chip to increase our selections.

While Armstead and Vega are unknows as far as their potential contribution to the Pats deficiencies we could be surprised by their value. Despite the "what-ifs" we need to stick with our first premise of rebuilding a better DL. That too depends upon the value of the players available at #29 or in the event of a trade-down the best NEED values on the board. We shouldn't REACH just to conform to a predraft plan!

At this stage of the draft process it's only speculation as to what is needed vs what's available. Supposedly we want to be active in FA yet resigning our own FA may deplete our available cash. Perhaps BB won't even surprise us with curious selections when the time comes?

 

There's another way to look at it, Brady is nearing the end, time to win now, we have a lot of quality free agents that need signing.  It's almost better to package our picks, move up in the 1st round and get quality over quantity at DT, sign our free agents and a few more cap casualties from other teams. This will increase our talent and experience level significantly.  

 

I look at Armstead like a high 2nd, low 1st round pick, he falls under the Marcus Cannon category where, if not for a freak medical issue he would have been one of the top DT/DE's in his draft class.  That being said I think we're so talent deficient at D Line (and by D Line I mean true DT's and DE's, not oversized linebackers) that we need to load up so we have the ability to play the 3/4 once again.  Vega I don't even consider, he's an outside linebacker tweener who might not even make this team.

A true DT would be nice, another Wilfork type who could play nose in a bind so that Armstead, who at 6'5" is a poor man's Seymour, could play defensive end.  The nastiest defense we would have at that point would be the 3/4 over with a front of Wilfork, player X at end, Armstead at the other end and Chandler Jones playing OLB but up on the line like another rush end.  The bookends with two 6'5" rushers on the ends would be nasty with a strong push up the middle from two unstoppable D tackles.  Ninc could slide back to his more natural OLB position and all of our linebackers would be happy not to have to engage with as many pulling guards.

This would make our defense great again, we're set at every position on the defense besides strong safety... calling Ed Reed and Tavon Wilson.

 

 

I really think it has less to do with alignment (3-4/4-3) and more to do with the talent, explosivity, and size to a certain extent. 

 

In response to wozzy's comment:

 

In response to moskk's comment:

 

 

Who we draft at #29 will depend upon how successful we are resigning our own FAs as well as how successful we are in FA. Since we only have 5 draft picks (two of which are 7th rounders) there is the distinct possibility that we may trade out of the first round.  Then too, perhaps Mallet becomes an important trade chip to increase our selections.

While Armstead and Vega are unknows as far as their potential contribution to the Pats deficiencies we could be surprised by their value. Despite the "what-ifs" we need to stick with our first premise of rebuilding a better DL. That too depends upon the value of the players available at #29 or in the event of a trade-down the best NEED values on the board. We shouldn't REACH just to conform to a predraft plan!

At this stage of the draft process it's only speculation as to what is needed vs what's available. Supposedly we want to be active in FA yet resigning our own FA may deplete our available cash. Perhaps BB won't even surprise us with curious selections when the time comes?

 

There's another way to look at it, Brady is nearing the end, time to win now, we have a lot of quality free agents that need signing.  It's almost better to package our picks, move up in the 1st round and get quality over quantity at DT, sign our free agents and a few more cap casualties from other teams. This will increase our talent and experience level significantly.  

 

I look at Armstead like a high 2nd, low 1st round pick, he falls under the Marcus Cannon category where, if not for a freak medical issue he would have been one of the top DT/DE's in his draft class.  That being said I think we're so talent deficient at D Line (and by D Line I mean true DT's and DE's, not oversized linebackers) that we need to load up so we have the ability to play the 3/4 once again.  Vega I don't even consider, he's an outside linebacker tweener who might not even make this team.

A true DT would be nice, another Wilfork type who could play nose in a bind so that Armstead, who at 6'5" is a poor man's Seymour, could play defensive end.  The nastiest defense we would have at that point would be the 3/4 over with a front of Wilfork, player X at end, Armstead at the other end and Chandler Jones playing OLB but up on the line like another rush end.  The bookends with two 6'5" rushers on the ends would be nasty with a strong push up the middle from two unstoppable D tackles.  Ninc could slide back to his more natural OLB position and all of our linebackers would be happy not to have to engage with as many pulling guards.

This would make our defense great again, we're set at every position on the defense besides strong safety... calling Ed Reed and Tavon Wilson.

 

 

 

I find it mildly interesting that Armstead, nearly completely dismissed  as a Patriot's contributor a few months ago, is now elevated to a 2nd round status while Vega, similarly signed as a potential contributer, inherits the moniker as irrelevant. I hope you're right on the first supposition and wrong about Vega's potential value. Regardless, I also hope that we can augment our DL while also addressing our need at WR and CB/S in the early rounds and OL at some other interval.

 

Should we trade out of the first round to gather trading chips and if Mallet is similarly exchanged for additional picks your scenario could very well be in play.

In response to wozzy's comment:

Except for one year (2008, I believe), the Pats have never been a team that accumulated big sack numbers. In fact, 2011 might be the when they had the second most sacks since 2001.

I am not arguing against the need for help up front. In fact, I too, think a DT should be their highest priority this offseason. 

Maybe there is an argument to be made that sacks are becoming more important under the new NFL. I'll have to check that. They definitely have been middle of the league.

That said, the Pats is always difficult to assess on stats because the performance gap between when they are playing good teams vs when they are playing bad teams is perhaps the biggest in the league. Averages apply the least to this team. It's true for both O and D.

 

It's not so much the sack numbers as it is making the QB throw early.  Pressure on the QB needs to happen.  You don't necessarily need the sack but if you can hurry the QB good things can happen.  

To fill the holes on this team the Pats need to be active in FA.  With so few picks in the draft I don't see any way out of this.  

This post has been removed.

In response to mthurl's comment:

I think you are right but I have no clue as to who they really would like.

In response to moskk's comment:

 

 

I find it mildly interesting that Armstead, nearly completely dismissed  as a Patriot's contributor a few months ago, is now elevated to a 2nd round status while Vega, similarly signed as a potential contributer, inherits the moniker as irrelevant. I hope you're right on the first supposition and wrong about Vega's potential value. Regardless, I also hope that we can augment our DL while also addressing our need at WR and CB/S in the early rounds and OL at some other interval. 

Should we trade out of the first round to gather trading chips and if Mallet is similarly exchanged for additional picks your scenario could very well be in play.

 

 

I was very high on Armstead the moment they made the signing, he proved he was healthy and played big in Canada.  Vega has never stayed healthy at any level even though he was productive when we was but even then has an up hill battle with solid depth in front of him.

 

In response to dreighver's comment:

The 3/4 OVER defense is, in essence, a 4 man front or a 4/3.  

A four man front with Jones and Armstead at end and two monster tackles (Wilfork, player X) pushing from inside... even if they don't get the QB, the long arms of Jones and Armstead will knock a lot of balls down (see McGinest and Seymour) and the opposing QB would take a serious beating from blizters off the edge.  This is when you'd finally see successful edge rushing and Belichick would get back to the days where the other team never knew where the rush was going to come from because they'd constantly have to account for the push up the middle.