A White Vick....

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    A White Vick....

    http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/ESPN-runs-controversial-picture-of-a-white-Micha?urn=nfl-wp5866

    http://espn.go.com/espn/commentary/story/_/id/6894586/imagining-michael-vick-white-quarterback-nfl-espn-magazine

    Really?
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Re: A White Vick....

    I read this headline on Yahoo yesterday, and have no interest in reading the article. Saying a "White Vick" is just as offensive to white people as saying a "Black Steve Jobs." The underlying message is white people aren't athletic, and black people can't build fortune 500 companies. It has been, and will continue to be ok poke fun at white people, but do the same about a black person and suddenly Jesse Jackson is all over the news.

    It's fine to compare a white person to Vick, it's also fine to compare a black person to Steve Jobs, but why, WHY does race ALWAYS have to be involved? It's ignorant and unintelligent and whoever coined that term should be immediately fired for being so flatly stupid. But then, I see Tomase's pig face still at the Herald, and I know that whoever he wrote this for is probably enjoying all the attention. Pitiful.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: A White Vick....


    Race is still a big deal in America, which is why articles like this have their place. Good article or bad?  I don't know. Didn't read it.  But maybe I will if I have some time later.

    There is, by the way, a perfectly legitimate reason why it's generally more acceptable to poke fun at whites than blacks.  The reason is because, through most of the last 300 or 400 years of American history, attitudes toward race have disadvantaged blacks and advantaged whites.  Things have doubtlessly improved in the past 50 years, but race isn't yet irrelevant as anyone who honestly assesses the differences between the average experience of blacks and whites in the country must admit. And the effects of past, undeniable racial discrimination still do have a significant effect on the prospects of the average black family. A race disadvantaged by law and custom for hundreds of years doesn't achieve true equality over night.  And old attitudes die slowly and persist more strongly than we might want to admit.

    We can all pat ourselves on the back about getting much, much better when it comes to race.  But we've hardly become perfect and there is still significant work to be done. 






      
     
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    Re: A White Vick....

    In Response to Re: A White Vick....:
    [QUOTE]Race is still a big deal in America, which is why articles like this have their place. Good article or bad?  I don't know. Didn't read it.  But maybe I will if I have some time later. There is, by the way, a perfectly legitimate reason why it's generally more acceptable to poke fun at whites than blacks.  The reason is because, through most of the last 300 or 400 years of American history, attitudes toward race have disadvantaged blacks and advantaged whites.  Things have doubtlessly improved in the past 50 years, but race isn't yet irrelevant as anyone who honestly assesses the differences between the average experience of blacks and whites in the country must admit. And the effects of past, undeniable racial discrimination still do have a significant effect on the prospects of the average black family. A race disadvantaged by law and custom for hundreds of years doesn't achieve true equality over night.  And old attitudes die slowly and persist more strongly than we might want to admit. We can all pat ourselves on the back about getting much, much better when it comes to race.  But we've hardly become perfect and there is still significant work to be done.    
    Posted by prolate0spheroid[/QUOTE]


    Well Stated.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from N2thaIzzo. Show N2thaIzzo's posts

    Re: A White Vick....

    The article wasn't as bad as the title makes it look.  I believe it was meant to stir up controversy and get readers, but it was pretty tame. 
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from anonymis. Show anonymis's posts

    Re: A White Vick....

    In Response to Re: A White Vick....:
    [QUOTE]The article wasn't as bad as the title makes it look.  I believe it was meant to stir up controversy and get readers, but it was pretty tame. 
    Posted by N2thaIzzo[/QUOTE]

    Ur avatar stirs me up :)  lol

    isn't larry retired?
     
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    Re: A White Vick....

    wait vick isn't white?
     
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    Re: A White Vick....

    They should have written an article called "The White OJ Simpson", because before the killing of his wife, he wasn't exactly "black" in where and how he lived.....except he should have bought his moms some false teeth!
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: A White Vick....

    In Response to Re: A White Vick....:
    [QUOTE]Race is still a big deal in America, which is why articles like this have their place. Good article or bad?  I don't know. Didn't read it.  But maybe I will if I have some time later. There is, by the way, a perfectly legitimate reason why it's generally more acceptable to poke fun at whites than blacks.  The reason is because, through most of the last 300 or 400 years of American history, attitudes toward race have disadvantaged blacks and advantaged whites.  Things have doubtlessly improved in the past 50 years, but race isn't yet irrelevant as anyone who honestly assesses the differences between the average experience of blacks and whites in the country must admit. And the effects of past, undeniable racial discrimination still do have a significant effect on the prospects of the average black family. A race disadvantaged by law and custom for hundreds of years doesn't achieve true equality over night.  And old attitudes die slowly and persist more strongly than we might want to admit. We can all pat ourselves on the back about getting much, much better when it comes to race.  But we've hardly become perfect and there is still significant work to be done.    
    Posted by prolate0spheroid[/QUOTE]

    Though I partial agree with your thoughts I also think that articles like this only make the problem worse. Why should it be if Vick was white, why not if Vick grew up in a better area with a loving father? I have plenty of black friends, some grew up in the projects and some grew up in the nice suburbs. Yes some aspects of their appearance both physically and socially are different depending on where they grew up but they are good guys. They had parents that raised them to aspire for more and to make something of themselves. Actually I think the ones who grew up in the projects wanted to work that much harder to leave that environment and get their families out too. You can't just blame environment and move on, not when so many work so hard to get out. At some point you have to take responsibility as a culture and work hard to better the environment around you instead of shrugging your shoulders and saying well it's just the culture and there's nothing you can do to change it. 

    That's one thing that I think is propagating the stereotypes is these images presented by the media for these athletes. My friends from the projects agree with me that their old friends who are still there looked at these athletes and rap stars and say that this is their culture and feel it's an insult to act any other way. It's the whole image they look up to for these guys to be gansta's and lay blame on their environment as the reason they have to act a certain way to survive. That is what makes it such a tragedy honestly. So, when a predominant figure in that culture passes blame for his actions to his environment it gives an open excuse for others to do the same. How many times have you heard in papers about a kid getting arrested and saying they didn't stand a chance because of the culture they grew up in? Why doesn't the community stand up and try to change that culture if it's so bad instead of trying to glorify it and pass the buck? Some predominant figures have done this and some communities have started to take a stand but not nearly enough. It only reinforces the stereotypes which reinforces the bias when you read tragic stories in the papers and time and time again you hear that it was the culture that drove them that way, then you turn on the radio/tv and hear/see that same culture be glorified as if it was something to aspire to.

    Anyway you look at it's not right to poke fun at either race. It only serves to separate the races further. In an attempt to make things right we actually cause it to further separate the races with programs like affirmative action. Now, it's a great idea but it shouldn't be based on race but on opportunity provided by location. My black friends, esp those from the projects, felt insulted that they government was saying that they weren't as good as their white counter parts so they needed a leg up. At the same time from the white side those in the same situation as their black counter parts were left wondering why they didn't get the same advantage and felt something had been taken away from them. If people need a hand it should be universal for all those that need it not just because of perceived differences in race or gender.

    Racism still exists and should be stomped out with a steel toed boot but over analysing everything searching for it and allowing deflection of blame based on cultural differences on both sides only serves to propagate racism not remove it.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from oklahomapatriot. Show oklahomapatriot's posts

    Re: A White Vick....

    Why do stoopid stuff like this? It just fuels the fire about race in football and shows we still can't live together without worrying about race..

    Will this lead to a What if TB was black article? Leave it to ESPN.

     
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  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: A White Vick....

    In Response to Re: A White Vick....:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A White Vick.... : Though I partial agree with your thoughts I also think that articles like this only make the problem worse. Why should it be if Vick was white, why not if Vick grew up in a better area with a loving father? I have plenty of black friends, some grew up in the projects and some grew up in the nice suburbs. Yes some aspects of their appearance both physically and socially are different depending on where they grew up but they are good guys. They had parents that raised them to aspire for more and to make something of themselves. Actually I think the ones who grew up in the projects wanted to work that much harder to leave that environment and get their families out too. You can't just blame environment and move on, not when so many work so hard to get out. At some point you have to take responsibility as a culture and work hard to better the environment around you instead of shrugging your shoulders and saying well it's just the culture and there's nothing you can do to change it.  That's one thing that I think is propagating the stereotypes is these images presented by the media for these athletes. My friends from the projects agree with me that their old friends who are still there looked at these athletes and rap stars and say that this is their culture and feel it's an insult to act any other way. It's the whole image they look up to for these guys to be gansta's and lay blame on their environment as the reason they have to act a certain way to survive. That is what makes it such a tragedy honestly. So, when a predominant figure in that culture passes blame for his actions to his environment it gives an open excuse for others to do the same. How many times have you heard in papers about a kid getting arrested and saying they didn't stand a chance because of the culture they grew up in? Why doesn't the community stand up and try to change that culture if it's so bad instead of trying to glorify it and pass the buck? Some predominant figures have done this and some communities have started to take a stand but not nearly enough. It only reinforces the stereotypes which reinforces the bias when you read tragic stories in the papers and time and time again you hear that it was the culture that drove them that way, then you turn on the radio/tv and hear/see that same culture be glorified as if it was something to aspire to. Anyway you look at it's not right to poke fun at either race. It only serves to separate the races further. In an attempt to make things right we actually cause it to further separate the races with programs like affirmative action. Now, it's a great idea but it shouldn't be based on race but on opportunity provided by location. My black friends, esp those from the projects, felt insulted that they government was saying that they weren't as good as their white counter parts so they needed a leg up. At the same time from the white side those in the same situation as their black counter parts were left wondering why they didn't get the same advantage and felt something had been taken away from them. If people need a hand it should be universal for all those that need it not just because of perceived differences in race or gender. Racism still exists and should be stomped out with a steel toed boot but over analysing everything searching for it and allowing deflection of blame based on cultural differences on both sides only serves to propagate racism not remove it.
    Posted by PatsEng[/QUOTE]


    I don't disagree with most of what you're saying either.  Though I do think it's perfectly fine for a black author (or any author, regardless of race) to speculate on how Vick's experience growing up in a certain type of black culture affected him and also affects how others view him.  Yeah, people succeed despite their background all the time.  But the environment in which one grows up does exert a force on one's development--sometimes for good and sometimes for bad.  And while economic circumstances may increasingly be becoming a more significant factor than race in determining whether one's background is advantageous or disadvantageous, it would be wrong to conclude that race is either irrelevant or insignificant.  It's not.  If nothing else, the still pervasive segregation of American neighborhoods results in signficant cultural differences between blacks and white.  We grow up in different surroundings, with different influences, different experiences, and different norms.  That perpetuates differences that spill over into the rest of life.  If most people doing the hiring in this country, for instance, are used to the norms of white society, black people who grew up in a fairly different and still somewhat separated black society are going to have trouble fitting in or being accepted.  This segregation, while not forced now, is still a reality. It may be just an artifact of the past and not something that anyone is actively trying to maintain anymore, but as long as it persists it will continue to have an effect of disadvantaging black minorities whose success depends very much on their ability to adopt to white norms. Some people do that easily. Some struggle with it.  Much like some people can adapt easily to living in a foreign country, while others just can't seem to leave not only their country, but even the states, cities or neighborhoods they grew up in. 


     
     
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    Re: A White Vick....

    I do think that there is some truth to what Vick has said about dog fighting being culturally acceptable in some poor black communities in America.  It has been culturally acceptable among many different societies throughout history and persisted as a popular diversion among the white working class in both Britain and America long after the more refined upper classes decided it was cruel.  In fact, according the the ASPCA, dog fighting became especially popular after the civil war among police and firemen! (See quote below).

    Although there are historical accounts of dogfights going back to the 1750’s, widespread activity emerged after the Civil War, with professional pits proliferating in the 1860’s, mainly in the Northeast.

    Ironically, it was a common entertainment for police officers and firemen, and the “Police Gazette” served as a major source of information on dogfighting for many years. Although many laws were passed outlawing the activity, dogfighting continued to expand throughout the 20th century.


    I'm not making excuses for Vick. I just think he is not wrong when he says his sense of what was right or wrong may very well have been influenced by his culture. That doesn't mean he shouldn't still be punished for breaking the law, but I don't quite understand why people get all worked up about a guy speaking what very well might be the truth, even if it may be an unpleasant truth.  

     

     
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    Re: A White Vick....



    And god knows! The upper classes may eventually decide that football is a cruel and overly brutal sport too.  In fact, Roger Goodell may already have arrived at that place!
     
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  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from p-mike. Show p-mike's posts

    Re: A White Vick....

    It's probably worth pointing out (again) that the guy who writes the article doesn't write the headline and, in this particular case, it's an obvious "Look at me!" ploy and what professionals of another era would have called "yellow" journalism. Yes . . .  headlines are supposed to be designed to draw you into the story and shock-and-awe is one way to do that, but people who haven't read the article should be aware that there isn't any race-baiting in it.


     
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    Re: A White Vick....

    In Response to Re: A White Vick....:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A White Vick.... : I don't disagree with most of what you're saying either.  Though I do think it's perfectly fine for a black author (or any author, regardless of race) to speculate on how Vick's experience growing up in a certain type of black culture affected him and also affects how others view him.  Yeah, people succeed despite their background all the time.  But the environment in which one grows up does exert a force on one's development--sometimes for good and sometimes for bad.  And while economic circumstances may increasingly be becoming a more significant factor than race in determining whether one's background is advantageous or disadvantageous, it would be wrong to conclude that race is either irrelevant or insignificant.  It's not.  If nothing else, the still pervasive segregation of American neighborhoods results in signficant cultural differences between blacks and white.  We grow up in different surroundings, with different influences, different experiences, and different norms.  That perpetuates differences that spill over into the rest of life.  If most people doing the hiring in this country, for instance, are used to the norms of white society, black people who grew up in a fairly different and still somewhat separated black society are going to have trouble fitting in or being accepted.  This segregation, while not forced now, is still a reality. It may be just an artifact of the past and not something that anyone is actively trying to maintain anymore, but as long as it persists it will continue to have an effect of disadvantaging black minorities whose success depends very much on their ability to adopt to white norms. Some people do that easily. Some struggle with it.  Much like some people can adapt easily to living in a foreign country, while others just can't seem to leave not only their country, but even the states, cities or neighborhoods they grew up in.   
    Posted by prolate0spheroid[/QUOTE]

    This is where I think about it differently.

    Yes a black author has all the right to write about a black culture that Vick grew up in... well provided he grew up in the same environment. What I mean by that is I think Eminem would be able to write a better article on the subject verses say Obama who grew up in a completely different society. But, when a black writer comes out comparing what would it be like if he was white leaves a bad taste in most peoples mouths much like a white guy writing a report like what if Bird was black.

    The problem is that you shouldn't think of norms of white society. Lets face it society is dictated but the majority in which the white population has the majority in the society but there are a lot of cultral society treats that have been mixed into American society so it's not just one race dictating social norms (ie Asian culture has a lot of pull in business society). You should think of it as advancing you're own cultural society to a point where they can help affect the norms of current society for the good. I know that sounds bad but from the article here's a statistic to emphasize the point: "72 percent percent of black children are born to unwed mothers compared with 29 percent of white children". That's part of the culture that the writer directly relates to one of the reason that some black societies can't seem remove itself from self destructive behavior. In other countries that ratio is much much lower and the segregation of the populace is not so divided. At some point the culture needs to take action for itself to change and adapt in order to thrive. When you see these low economic areas it hasn't gotten better it's actually gotten worse. Women having kids with multiple non-supportive fathers have increased, crime rate has increased, education has gone down progressively every year. It's up to the people within that culture to reverse those numbers and society as a whole would better except those cultural differences. A great example is the Irish. When they first started arriving they were treated lower then dirt and their pockets of culture were considered undesirable and the slums by "civilized" society. Crime rates were so bad they didn't even bother putting police department in those areas allowing the Irish to self police. Eventually as a society they self regulated themselves and their culture was eventually add to the melting pot.

    That's the name of the game, don't play into stereotypes and to some degree self segregation through isolation of culture, as it only hampers progress. Instead force change from within forcing the norm of society to adapt and adopt part of your culture to become part of the culture of the nation.

    The writer would have made a stronger point if instead of focusing on Vick's culture and environment as the reasons for his dog fighting to have written an article as to why the culture needs to change to prevent more incidents like Vick's for occurring in the future.
     
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    Re: A White Vick....

    In Response to Re: A White Vick....:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A White Vick.... :  But, when a black writer comes out comparing what would it be like if he was white leaves a bad taste in most peoples mouths much like a white guy writing a report like what if Bird was black.
    Posted by PatsEng[/QUOTE]

    The author doesn't do that.

    The headline is misleading . . .   that's the problem . . .  not the "cultural" excuse, which is an entirely different discussion.

    Read the article.


     
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    Re: A White Vick....

    I wonder what I'd look like white?

     

     
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    Re: A White Vick....

    who gives a flying fu.ck-
     
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    Re: A White Vick....

    I don't know, but he sure got hung out to dry.  Around here, some guy got 88 kennel violations (severe ones) and they told him if they weren't corrected in 5 days he would be fined for each one.  He then shot over 80 dogs.  No dogs, no charges.  He got off scott free.  The guy was Mennonite.  They and the Amish are serial dog abusers, breeding them until dead, keeping them in cages 2 feet off the ground walking on chain link so no one has to clean them.  3 feet wide and 5 feet long, tops, out in the sun, rain and snow, no one interacting with the animals at all.  "God gave us dominion over the animals" is what they will tell you.  Nobody bothers them about it.  So, no, I'm not real worked up about Mike Vick's fighting dogs, and I think they nailed him to the wall because he was black and successful.  
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from patthepatriot666. Show patthepatriot666's posts

    Re: A White Vick....

    he broke LAWS- it was not arbitrary



    In Response to Re: A White Vick....:
    [QUOTE]I don't know, but he sure got hung out to dry.  Around here, some guy got 88 kennel violations (severe ones) and they told him if they weren't corrected in 5 days he would be fined for each one.  He then shot over 80 dogs.  No dogs, no charges.  He got off scott free.  The guy was Mennonite.  They and the Amish are serial dog abusers, breeding them until dead, keeping them in cages 2 feet off the ground walking on chain link so no one has to clean them.  3 feet wide and 5 feet long, tops, out in the sun, rain and snow, no one interacting with the animals at all.  "God gave us dominion over the animals" is what they will tell you.  Nobody bothers them about it.  So, no, I'm not real worked up about Mike Vick's fighting dogs, and I think they nailed him to the wall because he was black and successful.  
    Posted by Davedsone[/QUOTE]
     
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