Analyzing the interception.

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    Re: Analyzing the interception.

    WOW!  Why have I not seen this thread earlier?  Well done Babe, great screen shots.  This is now more interesting then I first thought. 

    My main argument was the way O'Brien was throwing a hissy fit on the side line, clearly out of control with the yelling, screaming, and his whole body language having to be pulled away.... all at one of the greats.  Never seen an OC yell at Marino, Montana, Manning like that, not even close.  When you are that good you deserve some respect.  Handle it differently, not the way O'Brien did.

    As people started talking about the pass and the route I looked into the way Underwood ran his route, very sloppy!!  Had he made a clean sharp cut he would have been way ahead of the defender and it would have been a TD.  But  instead he ran a wide turn route like a endzone bend letting the defender break in on it and when the ball got there he didn't make much of an effort to go get the ball and clearly he didn't make an effort to stop it from being intercepted.

    Now the photos that you post clearly look to me that Underwood had a better shot at the ball or breaking up the int then I had first thought.
     
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    Re: Analyzing the interception.

    In Response to Re: Analyzing the interception.:
    In Response to Re: Analyzing the interception. : What is your difficulty? I never said it was more Underwood's fault. I said both were at fault. I also said Brady had the right to tell Underwood about it and O'Brien was out of line to meltdown on Brady over it.
    Posted by BabeParilli


    Perfect point and you hit the nail on the head saying O'Brien had a meltdown.  That's exactly what he did!  My gosh, why can't people understand the O'Brien went overboard and totally lost it here?  O'Brien was wrong!!  Maybe not in what he did but how he handled the situation.  Dude looked like he was ready to go postal on Brady.  Great way to divide a team.  At the end of the youtube video you can clearly see Waters starting to say something, a few players getting involved there too, not a good thing to have on the sidelines by a team that always likes to give the perception that everything is in control.

    This game Sunday should be interesting if mistakes are made.  Could we see O'Brien have a medical condition on the sidelines or put his dukes up looking to throwdown if by chance Brady tries to coach up a player?
     
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    Re: Analyzing the interception.

    In Response to Re: Analyzing the interception.:
    Good Post Prolate, yeah I think that is where we disagree, and I concede that BB must agree with you. He very much obviously thinks this offense gives them the best chance to win, and given Brady's track record in the regular season I don't completely disagree. i just think that very same offense which helps us get to the playoffs is ultimately what destroys us in said playoffs. You think we use it by necessity and you may be right, I would just like to see us at the very least TRY to utilize our rb core, Ridley,Vareen are obviously athletic players with their own skill sets, If Benny struggles then role with a young guy. how about give Ridley 16 carries and see if he does have the ability to break a 40-50 yarder that benny does not possess. You have to admit that we run the exact same offense with almost no variety to the play calling? It is crazy to me. if our offense is too difficult to understand for the young guys then it leaves us with little to no depth as you say, so wouldn't it be advantageous to us to dumb it down a bit. This way we can work in Chad as a 3rd rec(who has looked pretty good to me) and the young backs. Perhaps if Kid n Play had more experience he would have fought off that INT? Or perhaps if that was Chad O in there it would have been a td? So in the end I think we have the personnel we just are not committed to using them, which is another part of the reason our offense struggles in the post season. I think despite the long passionate posts by all of us, we all actually agree more then it sounds. I love watching Brady put up the best numbers in the league, I just worry that is our only offense when I personally don't think it needs to be.
    Posted by TrueChamp


    I really wonder about the way BB ends up sitting offensive players on the bench for long periods of their rookie years.  I'm not in practice, so I'm not sure how good they really look . . . but I can't help wondering about sitting Price all season last year and now sitting Vereen and Ridley all year this year.  Are they really that bad and unready? Or is Bill looking for too much perfection before getting them in? Or is it that the schemes are really so complex that only Rhodes scholars can play for this team?  I guess I worry about what it does to a young guy's confidence and development.  If these guys are that bad, the drafting is bad.  If they're not that bad, then there's a problem with the way we develop them.  I also wonder about guys like Butler and McCourty . . . these are guys who showed potential as rookies, then seemed to fall apart in their second years.  What's happening?  Is there something going on that's killing people's confidence?  I don't know, but it seems a bit weird to me.  If nothing else, Ridley has shown as much as some of other backs.  Why isn't he getting more touches?


    As far as our problems in the playoffs . . . I just think we end up facing more complete teams come January . . . and teams that are maybe better prepared, since coaches really go all out in game planning for playoffs I think.  Right now, the Pats offense can be stopped by a team that has good corners and pass rushers and that can keep its most of its LBs and DBs close to the LOS.  That kind of defense messes with our short passing game and also works pretty well against the run.  We also are going to struggle against good passing teams that can rack up points.  I fear to see this defense against the Saints or the Packers if we get that far.  BB is a great coach who might come up with a scheme that works, but right now the only way we beat the Packers or the Saints is by scoring 45 points . . . and we're not doing that running, so our offense is almost certain to be one-dimensional if we play teams like that. 

    Ultimately, we need talent . . . mostly on offense we need a few wideouts like the Packers have in Nelson and Jennings.  We could also use a more explosive running back.  On defense, we need a radical overhaul.  Our DBs are awful . . . I think Rodney Harrison said they are the worst squad he's ever seen in the NFL.  And our front seven is pretty thin right now, with Wilfork and Mayo the only guys who stand out (you can throw Carter in there too, I guess, but he's close to retiring).  To me, our playoff problems ultimately come down to this: the talent isn't there.  BB gets us to the playoffs with great coaching.  But he ain't winning because he doesn't have the horses anymore. 
     
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    Re: Analyzing the interception.

    Wow, this string needs to be a story line for a remake of the movie "Re-Animator"!!
     
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    Re: Analyzing the interception.

    In Response to Re: Analyzing the interception.:
    In Response to Re: Analyzing the interception. : I really wonder about the way BB ends up sitting offensive players on the bench for long periods of their rookie years.  I'm not in practice, so I'm not sure how good they really look . . . but I can't help wondering about sitting Price all season last year and now sitting Vereen and Ridley all year this year.  Are they really that bad and unready? Or is Bill looking for too much perfection before getting them in?
    Posted by prolate0spheroid


    Incessantly questioning the best coach in the game is ill advised. Do you deny he is a great head coach? Has anybody he sat then later cut emerged as a big miss on his part?
     
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    Re: Analyzing the interception.

    In Response to Re: Analyzing the interception.:
    Running more does not equal better defense observe ... stats reversed. The best defense = more running is more likely ... because teams with elite defenses have leads they protect in the 4th. In fact, outside of the Texans, the top six rushing teams have a really terrible set of defenses, by the points, all told. Though I would argue running teams like Denver win in spite of their weak running offense, and not because of it, and it hurts their "D" in the long run.  Broncos 1st to 22nd Texans 2nd to 4th Eagles 3rd to 20th Vikings 4th to 30th Panthers 5th to 29th Raiders 6th to 28th  49ers 7th to 1st Saints 8th to 17th Bears 9th to 9th Jaguars 10th to 7th Bills 11th to 26th Dolphins 12th 5th
    Posted by zbellino

    z you misunderstood me. I'm on your side on this one. I love this offense with Brady slinging it all over the place. I just hate to see interceptions and Brady has been better about that lately.

    I posted those stats just to add to the conversation. Teams with good defenses typically run more. Teams with bad defenses pass more.

               Passing yards    Defense
    Saints         1st             27th
    Patriots       2nd             32nd
    Packers       3rd             31st
    Giants         4th             30th
    Lions          5th             17th
    Cowboys       6th             16th
    Chargers       7th             9th
    Panthers       8th             24th
     
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    Re: Analyzing the interception.

    In Response to Re: Analyzing the interception.:
    I think the only thing that should matter is W-L. Fools twist stats too much.  People here are "afraid" of "how the Pats wil do against Rodgers or Brees".  We should be "afraid" of how many we'd hang on NO or GB-last year 31 on GB in 20 minutes of possession. You're all too negative.
    Posted by Patsfansince1966

    Thanks for the comments. I just throw the stats out there for discussion. I agree that wins and losses are the stats that matter most. The Patriots can play with the best of them.
     
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    Re: Analyzing the interception.

    In Response to Re: Analyzing the interception.:
    WOW!  Why have I not seen this thread earlier?  Well done Babe, great screen shots.  This is now more interesting then I first thought.  My main argument was the way O'Brien was throwing a hissy fit on the side line, clearly out of control with the yelling, screaming, and his whole body language having to be pulled away.... all at one of the greats.  Never seen an OC yell at Marino, Montana, Manning like that, not even close.  When you are that good you deserve some respect.  Handle it differently, not the way O'Brien did. As people started talking about the pass and the route I looked into the way Underwood ran his route, very sloppy!!  Had he made a clean sharp cut he would have been way ahead of the defender and it would have been a TD.  But  instead he ran a wide turn route like a endzone bend letting the defender break in on it and when the ball got there he didn't make much of an effort to go get the ball and clearly he didn't make an effort to stop it from being intercepted. Now the photos that you post clearly look to me that Underwood had a better shot at the ball or breaking up the int then I had first thought.
    Posted by TFB12


    You probably want to check out zbellino's link from a page or two back in this thread with a vid from the globe showing the play breakdown and how in fact the pattern was run poorly and the pass was actually a good one.

    What puzzles me is why some Pats' fans want to dump on Brady. He is the only thing keeping this team from being a joke. Some actually want to take the ball from him and give it to this Mickey Mouse running game.
     
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    Re: Analyzing the interception.

    In Response to Re: Analyzing the interception.:
    In Response to Re: Analyzing the interception. : z you misunderstood me. I'm on your side on this one. I love this offense with Brady slinging it all over the place. I just hate to see interceptions and Brady has been better about that lately. I posted those stats just to add to the conversation. Teams with good defenses typically run more. Teams with bad defenses pass more.            Passing yards    Defense Saints         1st             27th Patriots       2nd             32nd Packers       3rd             31st Giants         4th             30th Lions          5th             17th Cowboys       6th             16th Chargers       7th             9th Panthers       8th             24th
    Posted by digger0862


    Good point. A team with both a good offense and a good defense would probably win 3 SBs in 4 years.
     
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    Re: Analyzing the interception.

    In Response to Re: Analyzing the interception.:
    Good point. A team with both a good offense and a good defense would probably win 3 SBs in 4 years.
    Posted by BabeParilli

    Unless that team is the Chargers! Lol!
     
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    Re: Analyzing the interception.

    In Response to Re: Analyzing the interception.:
    In Response to Re: Analyzing the interception. : Brady is the BEST player the Pats have ever had and we as fans have lost sight of that.  He will be missed when he has retired and those that want to take the ball out of his hand will be the ones that will be the sorriest.
    Posted by Patsfansince1966


    Some of these rubes think Brady's grow on trees.  Too many are in a "cats in the cradle" mode, but they will rue the day he walks off the field for good.
     
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    Re: Analyzing the interception.

    In Response to Re: Analyzing the interception.:
    In Response to Re: Analyzing the interception. : You're missing the one MOST IMPORTANT aspect of this discussion..... NOBODY IS SAYING HE SHOULD HAVE!!!!!
    Posted by BabeParilli


    Refresher course here, if I may:

    Paragraph #1: "Rather than launching he could have moved to defender to contest the ball.... may even take a penalty (???) insuring a FG attempt."

    Hmmmm.... Brady never should have thrown the ball, preserving the FG attempt, but the rookie WR should have 'contested" the pass that never should have been thrown. BRILLIANT!

    Paragraph #4: "Despite Underwood having his arm inside the defender's, he's going to take it away without any fight from Underwood".

    Underwood was committed and airborne/ "launched" to try an catch a ball that never should have been thrown. Interesting....

    Paragraph #5: (My personal favoirite) "he did nothing"

    This is funny! Let me ask you this: Do you feel the same way about Rodney in the 2007 SB lost to the Giants, when he let the receiver catch the ball with his helmet earhole? Never hit him, never touched him during the xcatch. Would a penalty have been a good idea then?


    Paragraph #1 in main body: "Underwood could have prevented teh INT and preserved FG possibility with 'better decisions from teh start and better effort to fight for the ball' ".

    REALLY? SERIOUSLY?  Apparently you missed the part that Underwood ran the route he was supposed to, at teh back of the end zone. If he made "bad decisions", why are you even considering absolving Brady for his egotistical, boneheaded decision to try and squeeze it in to Underwood? I guess in your world, as oong as Brady throws it, it's otjher players "fault" if the play is either incomplete or INT'd, right? (You said NOTHING lengthy about Brady's apparent short time imitation of Ray Charles on this play. It's all "Underwood shoudl have done this....) 

    "This was likely all Tom was telling him (underwood) whenO"Brien melted down."

    Let's see.... I know you weren't immediately privy to the "discussion" on the sideline, and I don't recall seeing your post game interview aboutthe "dust up" either. So, to defend your QB, you developedthis theory on what was said. Thank God O'Brien overheard it and put Brady in his place, defending the kid who ran his route correctly, and never had a chance to catch a pass that never should have been thrown towards him!

    Bottom line is this: in "crunch time", who woudl you rather have the ultimate DECISION on making a critical play rest with? The no question future HOF QB, or the rookie WR? Brady put that game win at risk, NOT Underwood. I don't care how full of himself he is, Brady's #2 DOES smell when shown on TV, and he needs to be responsible.

    Now, looking at the original post, and quoting you above, I can see my confusion in your contention that "no one is saying Brady shouldn't have thrown the ball".
    This allegation would be believable if your analysis said somethign like (in frame #1: Despite having only a step on the defender at the back of eh end zone, with no where to run, Brady decided to throw the ball, NOT sufficienmtly leading Underwood, giving him a chance to make a less risky catch".  Or, "Brady could have prevented the INT by throwing the ball into teh front row of the stands, preseerving the FG attempt".

    Guess I missed that, huh?
     
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    Re: Analyzing the interception.

    In Response to Re: Analyzing the interception.:
    In Response to Re: Analyzing the interception. : Incessantly questioning the best coach in the game is ill advised. Do you deny he is a great head coach? Has anybody he sat then later cut emerged as a big miss on his part?
    Posted by BabeParilli


    As I've said multiple times on this thread, I think BB is a great coach. Still, he's either missing on a lot of guys he's drafted or he's not doing a great job of developing some of that talent.  There's been a long string of guys like Wheatley, Crable, Butler, Price--even Merriwheather--who seem to hang around for a long time without getting better and sometimes actually getting worse.  Maybe they're all just duds and the problem was drafting them in the first place . . . but it is weird then that BB keeps them around so long.  It's as if even BB thinks they have potential but he (or his coaches) can't seem to unlock that potential. I realize BB is drafting low down most drafts, but he's worked his trades masterfully to get reasonably decent picks each year despite the Pats low draft position.  But he's either picking the wrong guys or not doing the right things to develop them.  I don't know which it is, but I think you can legitimately question what's going on.

    As far as BB's game planning and in-game coaching, though, there's no question he's about the best there is. 

     
     
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    Re: Analyzing the interception.

    In Response to Re: Analyzing the interception.:
    In Response to Re: Analyzing the interception. : Refresher course here, if I may: Paragraph #1: "Rather than launching he could have moved to defender to contest the ball.... may even take a penalty (???) insuring a FG attempt." Hmmmm.... Brady never should have thrown the ball, preserving the FG attempt, but the rookie WR should have 'contested" the pass that never should have been thrown. BRILLIANT! Paragraph #4: "Despite Underwood having his arm inside the defender's, he's going to take it away without any fight from Underwood". Underwood was committed and airborne/ "launched" to try an catch a ball that never should have been thrown. Interesting.... Paragraph #5: (My personal favoirite) "he did nothing" This is funny! Let me ask you this: Do you feel the same way about Rodney in the 2007 SB lost to the Giants, when he let the receiver catch the ball with his helmet earhole? Never hit him, never touched him during the xcatch. Would a penalty have been a good idea then? Paragraph #1 in main body: "Underwood could have prevented teh INT and preserved FG possibility with 'better decisions from teh start and better effort to fight for the ball' ". REALLY? SERIOUSLY?  Apparently you missed the part that Underwood ran the route he was supposed to, at teh back of the end zone. If he made "bad decisions", why are you even considering absolving Brady for his egotistical, boneheaded decision to try and squeeze it in to Underwood? I guess in your world, as oong as Brady throws it, it's otjher players "fault" if the play is either incomplete or INT'd, right? (You said NOTHING lengthy about Brady's apparent short time imitation of Ray Charles on this play. It's all "Underwood shoudl have done this....)  "This was likely all Tom was telling him (underwood) whenO"Brien melted down." Let's see.... I know you weren't immediately privy to the "discussion" on the sideline, and I don't recall seeing your post game interview aboutthe "dust up" either. So, to defend your QB, you developedthis theory on what was said. Thank God O'Brien overheard it and put Brady in his place, defending the kid who ran his route correctly, and never had a chance to catch a pass that never should have been thrown towards him! Bottom line is this: in "crunch time", who woudl you rather have the ultimate DECISION on making a critical play rest with? The no question future HOF QB, or the rookie WR? Brady put that game win at risk, NOT Underwood. I don't care how full of himself he is, Brady's #2 DOES smell when shown on TV, and he needs to be responsible. Now, looking at the original post, and quoting you above, I can see my confusion in your contention that "no one is saying Brady shouldn't have thrown the ball". This allegation would be believable if your analysis said somethign like (in frame #1: Despite having only a step on the defender at the back of eh end zone, with no where to run, Brady decided to throw the ball, NOT sufficienmtly leading Underwood, giving him a chance to make a less risky catch".  Or, "Brady could have prevented the INT by throwing the ball into teh front row of the stands, preseerving the FG attempt". Guess I missed that, huh?
    Posted by AZPAT


    You guess correctly. You did miss something. Nothing new, I'm sure.

    Gregg Bedard breaks the play down for the Globe and shows how the receiver blew the pattern. I'm guessing even you can understand this. Don't let me down.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhQ-e_7IwxY

     
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