ANDREW LUCK: ROOKIE OF THE YEAR AND MVP?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: ANDREW LUCK: ROOKIE OF THE YEAR AND MVP?

    In response to shenanigan's comment:
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    In response to UD6's comment:
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    In response to shenanigan's comment:
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    In response to zbellino's comment:
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    Luck deserves votes, for sure. 1-15(?) to winning. HE won't come close to getting it, but a few votes for sure. 

    Don't be suckered by pure stat lines either. 

    HE's been asked to do much more than RGIII IMO from a QBing perspective. RGIII takes off and runs, this masks the fact that he has only thrown for 2000 yards, and might not break 3000. Sorry, but I can't see a clear cut advantage in a QB in who has that RB, that defense, and doesn't crack 3000 yards. RGIII could get a vote, but he isn't head and shoulders above Luck.

    In five years, Luck will be going to Pro Bowls while RGIII will be a footnote. 

    Personally, I think Brady is a slam dunk at this point, kind of dragging a bad defense over the threshhold again, putting up historic numbers with an offense that has been terribly injured. But there are others who deserve votes. Luck is surely one of them.

    [/QUOTE]

    Weren't you preaching efficiency stats yesterday.  The reason Luck throws 40 times a game is simple, the coaches aren't doing a good job.  There's really no excuse for relying on a QB who's that inefficient.  it's like the run vs pass argument on here.  You don't continually run it if it doesn't work, but you don't continually pass it if if it doesn't work either.

    I look at it like this.  If RGIII threw 40 times a game would he have 4000 yards?  Efficiency stats show that about 30 QBs would have more yards than luck if they had thrown as many passes.  Gross passing yardage totals mean very little and have no correlation to winning games.  Passer rating and completion percentage and turnovers are all correlated to winning games.  Things Luck does poorly.  

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    Well heck, if you are going to look at it THAT way, if Luck had 1500+ yard rusher would he need to throw 40 times a game? 

    And if gross yard have nothing to do with winning while passer rating, completion % and turnover do, and if RGIII is better in all of these catagories with a better RB AND a better defense, and better (and more experienced) total receiving corps, then how come his record is worse?

    If those things matter.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Nice try.  Indianapolis' defense is better than Washingtons in both points and yards.  Considering they've also had to deal with Luck turning the ball over 14 more times than Griffin they would probably be even further ahead. 

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    Not so fast.  Actually the colts and redskins are tied in points allowed. 

    Skins give up 26 yds more per game.  Washington's defense is +14 in takeaways vs. the colts.  

    So your own standards thwart your argument here.  yds don't matter (and 26 is minimal - less than 7% differential).  Takeaways are significant (washington's d exceeds indys in takeaways by 240%)

    Football outsiders ranks the colts D 31st.  washington's D 22nd.     

    If you don't want to give Luck the award, so be it, but I don't think anyone can say that any rookie has done more with less than Luck. 

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from pcmIV. Show pcmIV's posts

    Re: ANDREW LUCK: ROOKIE OF THE YEAR AND MVP?

    In response to UD6's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    Not so fast.  Actually the colts and redskins are tied in points allowed. 

    Skins give up 26 yds more per game.  Washington's defense is +14 in takeaways vs. the colts.  

    So your own standards thwart your argument here.  yds don't matter (and 26 is minimal - less than 7% differential).  Takeaways are significant (washington's d exceeds indys in takeaways by 240%)

    Football outsiders ranks the colts D 31st.  washington's D 22nd.     

    If you don't want to give Luck the award, so be it, but I don't think anyone can say that any rookie has done more with less than Luck. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Your agenda here is painfully obvious.  Indy's D has given up less yards and less points (when you factor in all of Luck's pick sixes) than Washington's despite the fact that they have consistently put in bad positions by Luck's 23 (yes 23) turnovers.  And the fact that you continue to belittle Reggie Wayne while putting Santana freaking Moss and an injured Garcon on a pedestal is a bit much.

    Yeah Morris is having a heck of year so if Luck and Griffin had the exact same year I'd probably give the RotY to Luck, but Griffin has put up combined yardage that isn't that much less than Luck and has put up more TD's (24 to 23).  Luck has turned the ball over almost 4x as much and that's of course ignoring every other passing stat which favors RGIII.  In the end it comes down to both teams having terrible defenses and RGIII taking much better care of the ball.  You and Jints can keep framing this as bias all day long, but the numbers speak for themselves.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from JulesWinfield. Show JulesWinfield's posts

    Re: ANDREW LUCK: ROOKIE OF THE YEAR AND MVP?

    Colt fan here who has absolutely no interest in the RotY battle.  My vote would go to RGIII, because he has the numbers.  However, I can't think of a rookie QB since Peyton that has been sent out week after week to throw down the field.  The gimmicky offenses (like Washington's) or running offenses (like Pittsburgh's or Baltimore's) are much more conducive to rookie success.  The Colts' offense, which is heavily skewed towards passing the ball, enables Luck to learn as much as possible (and make a lot of mistakes along the way).  Luck continues to make a lot more mistakes than I'd like to see, but I'm happy that the team seems to pull out game after game and that Luck is at his absolute best at the crunch time.  It seems like he'll probably be a borderline PB QB next year, and that's more important than winning any kind of rookie award.  I also feel like Luck is more likely to build on this year than suffer some kind of Cam Newton-like sophomore slump...

     
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  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from JohnHannahrulz. Show JohnHannahrulz's posts

    Re: ANDREW LUCK: ROOKIE OF THE YEAR AND MVP?

    RGIII looks better right now, but Luck clearly needs a better O Line and some better coaching. He throws to many balls into tight coverage and racks up INTs.  IMO RG III is getting great production from Morris. Having a good running game always helps a good young QB. I personally was routing for Chandler to win DROY, but injuries mean that will not happen. IMHO anyone who thinks Luck is having a better year than AP is a moron.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: ANDREW LUCK: ROOKIE OF THE YEAR AND MVP?

    If Luck demonstrates any problems, it is that he presses too much and that gets him in trouble.  That said, I think he's been given the green light to go for it.  Hasn't dialed it back yet. 

    Regardless, as told by the record, he manages to come through in the end.  Some will point to the defense from this week, with the pick six, but those who saw the game or read about the league, in general, know that Luck's pick six was actually a sack that was ACTUALLY reviewed by the refs and still given to Tennessee while we at home were seeing clearly on the television that his knee was on the ground and the ball had not left his hand. 

    As it is - I really don't care who wins it.  Let RGIII have it like he got the Heisman.  Hopefully, it fuels Luck to continue to prove the world wrong.

    BTW - Hannah's right.  The colts oline blows. 

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from coolade2. Show coolade2's posts

    Re: ANDREW LUCK: ROOKIE OF THE YEAR AND MVP?

    In response to UD6's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    If Luck demonstrates any problems, it is that he presses too much and that gets him in trouble.  That said, I think he's been given the green light to go for it.  Hasn't dialed it back yet. 

    Regardless, as told by the record, he manages to come through in the end.  Some will point to the defense from this week, with the pick six, but those who saw the game or read about the league, in general, know that Luck's pick six was actually a sack that was ACTUALLY reviewed by the refs and still given to Tennessee while we at home were seeing clearly on the television that his knee was on the ground and the ball had not left his hand. 

    As it is - I really don't care who wins it.  Let RGIII have it like he got the Heisman.  Hopefully, it fuels Luck to continue to prove the world wrong.

    BTW - Hannah's right.  The colts oline blows. 

    [/QUOTE]


    Great....  10 pages of useless conjecture and this is the result....  Just beautiful.

     

    At least the Tankgate thread wasn't boring.  I think we need another one ...

    TANKGATE... more obvious than ever... 

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: ANDREW LUCK: ROOKIE OF THE YEAR AND MVP?

    At this point I would lean towards Luck for ROY but he is not in the MVP discussion. 

    RG III has been great but the Skins offense also doesn't ask him to make the throws that Luck makes, so the in that regard the INT #'s are a bit skewed.  I don't have the stat but basically it says the Skins by far lead the league in passes less than 5 yards.  Their offense is largely based on RG III being a running threat with lots of quick throws.  It plays very well into RG III's skill set but it also protects him from making mistakes.

    Also, Luck has the added pressure of being the #1 pick and the Colts have had a more impressive turn around.  The Skins beat the Giants twice last year.

    For a career I will always take the pocket passer over the running QB.  This is now the 2nd time in his rookie season that RG III has had to leave a game due to a big hit.  Having your QB take added punishment is a horrible scenario.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from shenanigan. Show shenanigan's posts

    Re: ANDREW LUCK: ROOKIE OF THE YEAR AND MVP?

    In response to Thesemenarecowards' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    At this point I would lean towards Luck for ROY but he is not in the MVP discussion. 

    RG III has been great but the Skins offense also doesn't ask him to make the throws that Luck makes, so the in that regard the INT #'s are a bit skewed.  I don't have the stat but basically it says the Skins by far lead the league in passes less than 5 yards.  Their offense is largely based on RG III being a running threat with lots of quick throws.  It plays very well into RG III's skill set but it also protects him from making mistakes.

    Also, Luck has the added pressure of being the #1 pick and the Colts have had a more impressive turn around.  The Skins beat the Giants twice last year.

    For a career I will always take the pocket passer over the running QB.  This is now the 2nd time in his rookie season that RG III has had to leave a game due to a big hit.  Having your QB take added punishment is a horrible scenario.

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    Nope

     

    Passes less than 10 yards 

    Luck 297

    Griffin 228

    Griffin also has the higher completion percentage on both long and short passes.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from coolade2. Show coolade2's posts

    Re: ANDREW LUCK: ROOKIE OF THE YEAR AND MVP?

    BTW, I'd give it to rg3 for last game alone willing his team to victory after that super painful injury.  Sprained ligaments feel like a knife stabbing into your knee while being on fire.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: ANDREW LUCK: ROOKIE OF THE YEAR AND MVP?

    In response to shenanigan's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Thesemenarecowards' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    At this point I would lean towards Luck for ROY but he is not in the MVP discussion. 

    RG III has been great but the Skins offense also doesn't ask him to make the throws that Luck makes, so the in that regard the INT #'s are a bit skewed.  I don't have the stat but basically it says the Skins by far lead the league in passes less than 5 yards.  Their offense is largely based on RG III being a running threat with lots of quick throws.  It plays very well into RG III's skill set but it also protects him from making mistakes.

    Also, Luck has the added pressure of being the #1 pick and the Colts have had a more impressive turn around.  The Skins beat the Giants twice last year.

    For a career I will always take the pocket passer over the running QB.  This is now the 2nd time in his rookie season that RG III has had to leave a game due to a big hit.  Having your QB take added punishment is a horrible scenario.

    [/QUOTE]

    Nope

     

    Passes less than 10 yards 

    Luck 297

    Griffin 228

    Griffin also has the higher completion percentage on both long and short passes.

    [/QUOTE]


    Well comparing straight #'s when were talking about one guy who has 351 Attempts and 1 guy who has 537 attempts is pretty pointless.  Also, I said 5 yards, not 10 but I guess I should have noted it was all % based.

    Despite having nearly 200 less attempts RGIII has 75 attempts at or behind the line of scrimmage to Luck's 72 attempts.  Luck has a far higher % of attempts over 15 yds (27-18). 

    The Skins ask a lot less out of Griffin in the passing game than the Colts do out of Luck, that is not debateable.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: ANDREW LUCK: ROOKIE OF THE YEAR AND MVP?

     

    [/QUOTE]


    Great....  10 pages of useless conjecture and this is the result....  Just beautiful.

     

    At least the Tankgate thread wasn't boring.  I think we need another one ...

    TANKGATE... more obvious than ever... 

    [/QUOTE]


    HEY COOLADE!  love that!  Brings back memories. 

    Thank goodness you are here to set us straight about what is and is not valuable.  Where would the rest of us be without you, right?  Now, gosh darnit, if we would only listen, right? 

    BTW = what is tankgate, and why would anyone use "gate" in a football context? 

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: ANDREW LUCK: ROOKIE OF THE YEAR AND MVP?

    In response to shenanigan's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Thesemenarecowards' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    At this point I would lean towards Luck for ROY but he is not in the MVP discussion. 

    RG III has been great but the Skins offense also doesn't ask him to make the throws that Luck makes, so the in that regard the INT #'s are a bit skewed.  I don't have the stat but basically it says the Skins by far lead the league in passes less than 5 yards.  Their offense is largely based on RG III being a running threat with lots of quick throws.  It plays very well into RG III's skill set but it also protects him from making mistakes.

    Also, Luck has the added pressure of being the #1 pick and the Colts have had a more impressive turn around.  The Skins beat the Giants twice last year.

    For a career I will always take the pocket passer over the running QB.  This is now the 2nd time in his rookie season that RG III has had to leave a game due to a big hit.  Having your QB take added punishment is a horrible scenario.

    [/QUOTE]

    Nope

     

    Passes less than 10 yards 

    Luck 297

    Griffin 228

    Griffin also has the higher completion percentage on both long and short passes.

    [/QUOTE]

    And Griffin has more weapons, a better oline,  a better d, more experienced personnel, a hall of fame HC, oh and a worse record. 

    This is not to say Griffin doesn't deserve it, but the debate is not dead.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: ANDREW LUCK: ROOKIE OF THE YEAR AND MVP?

    In response to Thesemenarecowards' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to shenanigan's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Thesemenarecowards' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    At this point I would lean towards Luck for ROY but he is not in the MVP discussion. 

    RG III has been great but the Skins offense also doesn't ask him to make the throws that Luck makes, so the in that regard the INT #'s are a bit skewed.  I don't have the stat but basically it says the Skins by far lead the league in passes less than 5 yards.  Their offense is largely based on RG III being a running threat with lots of quick throws.  It plays very well into RG III's skill set but it also protects him from making mistakes.

    Also, Luck has the added pressure of being the #1 pick and the Colts have had a more impressive turn around.  The Skins beat the Giants twice last year.

    For a career I will always take the pocket passer over the running QB.  This is now the 2nd time in his rookie season that RG III has had to leave a game due to a big hit.  Having your QB take added punishment is a horrible scenario.

    [/QUOTE]

    Nope

     

    Passes less than 10 yards 

    Luck 297

    Griffin 228

    Griffin also has the higher completion percentage on both long and short passes.

    [/QUOTE]


    Well comparing straight #'s when were talking about one guy who has 351 Attempts and 1 guy who has 537 attempts is pretty pointless.  Also, I said 5 yards, not 10 but I guess I should have noted it was all % based.

    Despite having nearly 200 less attempts RGIII has 75 attempts at or behind the line of scrimmage to Luck's 72 attempts.  Luck has a far higher % of attempts over 15 yds (27-18). 

    The Skins ask a lot less out of Griffin in the passing game than the Colts do out of Luck, that is not debateable.

    [/QUOTE]

    excellent points.  All of them.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: ANDREW LUCK: ROOKIE OF THE YEAR AND MVP?

    In response to coolade2's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    BTW, I'd give it to rg3 for last game alone willing his team to victory after that super painful injury.  Sprained ligaments feel like a knife stabbing into your knee while being on fire.

    [/QUOTE]

    you mean vocally willing them, right?

     
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  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: ANDREW LUCK: ROOKIE OF THE YEAR AND MVP?

    Yeah - he's made plenty of mistakes and the refs seem to be treating him like a rookie.  They certainly don't treat him like they treat the pats.  If the colts find a way to beat the texans in one of their two games and Luck has something to do with it, he will win ROTY. 

    If RGIII misses more than a game due to injury he will not win. 

    Had to remind coolade that in fact it was another QB that won the game for the skins Sunday.  Some of these pats fans like to give credit where its not due. 

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from JohnHannahrulz. Show JohnHannahrulz's posts

    Re: ANDREW LUCK: ROOKIE OF THE YEAR AND MVP?

    If the Colts somehow manage to win out (eg: win their division) Luck  definitely enters the conversation ROY that he is already in, but MVP would be stretch or dark horse. That said there are 3 QBs that are way better than him (the usual suspects Brady, Manning, Rodgers). and a RB that is having great year. IMHO when Luck gets a better line and he improves his skills (fewer INTs) he will eventually get his shot at MVP.

     
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