1. You have chosen to ignore posts from touchdownpats. Show touchdownpats's posts

    Any thoughts about Moss...

    posted at 12/7/2009 8:49 AM EST

    why does he disappear. Any feedback besides "He's double-teamed" would be interesting.
     

  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from JimfromFlorida. Show JimfromFlorida's posts

    Re: Any thoughts about Moss...

    posted at 12/7/2009 9:04 AM EST

    Hate to say the obvious but Double teamed and at times tripled. That is the only reason and answer. When singled he makes plays. That's all.
    When you have a guy covering under and one over and the safety leaning his way that's the reason. It's also why Welker gets so many passes. However when Welker also gets doubled that leaves what we saw yesterday Aiken getting thrown to.
     

  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from dwhite1220. Show dwhite1220's posts

    Re: Any thoughts about Moss...

    posted at 12/7/2009 9:10 AM EST

    He's gotta fight for the ball . Should never let anyone pick the ball in the endzone.Take a penalty,knock the  guy out a bounds, tackle him do something. I think Brady has 10 picks -6 came Randy's way3-4 he could've broken up. For some reason he's not physcial. BB / Brady better start getting on his case.Wes Welker doesn't have Randy's size,speed or skills but he's a better reciver  in my opinon.With out Welker - well I don't want to think about that ,he might be the team's MVP.....ANY THOUGHT'S?
     

  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from K-max. Show K-max's posts

    Re: Any thoughts about Moss...

    posted at 12/7/2009 9:17 AM EST

    The great O-line can't provide Brady the time in most cases, to allow Moss to get open down field.

    Brady got F#ckin decked (had to go to locker room) after Bomb to Randy for TD.  That alone will make you think twice about throwing it again and when you do you'll probably rush it and over throw it.
     

  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from touchdownpats. Show touchdownpats's posts

    Re: Any thoughts about Moss...

    posted at 12/7/2009 9:26 AM EST

    So apparently all Moss can do is run straight down the field, as fast as he can and outrun the defense. So was Jerry Rice ever double teamed? How about T.O? Hines Ward? Steve Smith? Should I go on?
     

  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from number1troll. Show number1troll's posts

    Re: Any thoughts about Moss...

    posted at 12/7/2009 9:44 AM EST

    In Response to Re: Any thoughts about Moss...:
    With out Welker - well I don't want to think about that ,he might be the team's MVP.....ANY THOUGHT'S?
    Posted by dwhite1220

    Totally agree. Welker is the glue.
     

  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Any thoughts about Moss...

    posted at 12/7/2009 9:45 AM EST

    He may be losing a step and he doesn't seem as aggressive as he used to be when he goes for the ball. But the biggest problem, like it or not, is that he's being double teamed and, given the lack of other weapons, defenses are able to key on him.

    What I don't like, though, is Brady's tendency to try to force the ball to Moss when there's nothing there.  This is killing a lot of drives and resulting in turnovers.  Is Brady that frustrated with the lack of other options (excluding, of course, Welker who is increasingly becoming Brady's only option).

     

  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from patsfansyr. Show patsfansyr's posts

    Re: Any thoughts about Moss...

    posted at 12/7/2009 10:17 AM EST


    His effort lately has been pretty bad.. On the 3rd and 2 little screen to Faulk, Moss made a lame arm flagging effort to block Wilson, and he tackles Faulk inches short of a 1st. Any block at all and its an easy first down.. And on that interception in the end zone he didn't exactly break a sweat to knock the ball down.
     

  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Mike-J-D. Show Mike-J-D's posts

    Re: Any thoughts about Moss...

    posted at 12/7/2009 10:24 AM EST

    he's not any different than he has ever been.  any of this talk after a loss like this is just conjecture and grasping for reasons to justify a loss. Moss is the same as he's always been. 
     

  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from wmo1679. Show wmo1679's posts

    Re: Any thoughts about Moss...

    posted at 12/7/2009 10:25 AM EST

    if moss and welker are both getting doubled teamed why do we still try and force the ball. There has to be  else someone open.
     

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  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from BTownExpress. Show BTownExpress's posts

    Re: Any thoughts about Moss...

    posted at 12/7/2009 11:37 AM EST

    Yeah, the Pats miss having that other (stallworth-type) WR on the other side; do not have the big running game (e.g. Dillon).
     

  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from pochen23. Show pochen23's posts

    Re: Any thoughts about Moss...

    posted at 12/7/2009 11:37 AM EST

    If you look at the situational stats of welker and moss, you will find that it is actually not the case. Moss on 3rd down received more 1st down than welker. The majority of Welker's catches come from 1st down, which is telling because base on your understanding, Moss is a first down big play guy, therefore teams key on him in those situations and leave Welker single covered. But when it comes to 3rd down, Moss doesn't go deep, which result in tighter coverage on Welker.

    Welker's situational:
    http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/7027/situational;_ylt=AuvbmS7CVUgSgna9kBqe9yH.uLYF

    Moss's situational:
    http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/4262/situational;_ylt=AuvbmS7CVUgSgna9kBqe9yH.uLYF

    I mean honestly, enough bashing on Moss. There is a reason teams double him instead of Welker cuz they know if they don't it is deep ball TD. Teams rather let Welker dink and dunk than allow big plays to Moss. Each drive is maybe 50-80 yards, takes about 5-8 catches or more for welker to get there. For Moss it can easily be one play. I will take my chance on that 5-8 time, which if I can stop a couple, I can stop a drive. On Moss, if you miss a couple, it is going to be a TD. If there is no Moss, there is no Welker. We have all seen what Moss can do without Welker (see Atlanta game), when given the chance to run short routes, he can do it, but his role is to stretch the field. If Moss is single covered like Welker, god knows how many yards he will get.

    This kind of conversation is almost like. Teams double or triple team MJ, Pippen steps up, so now Pippen is the better player? The only difference is MJ can force the action cuz basketball is different. Moss needs to rely on Brady to throw him the ball. As smart as brady is, it doesn't take a genius to know to throw to single coverage instead of double coverage, but Welker is only single covered because the presence of Moss.
     

  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from pochen23. Show pochen23's posts

    Re: Any thoughts about Moss...

    posted at 12/7/2009 11:48 AM EST

    Also, if you look at those situational stats in 2007 (same pages, just change the year). You will find this very interesting. Moss actually had fewer catches on 3rd down and fewer 1st down in 2007 the entire year than 12 games into 2009 now. However, his 3rd down yards per catch was an amazing 17 yards per catch (highest in all downs compare to lowest in all downs in 2009).

    From the look of it, the offense is very different. Brady either doesn't have the confidence to go deep or time (offense line isn't what it was in 2007) to throw to Moss deep on 3rd down, which seems to be the bread and butter plays in 2007, or the play calling in 2009 is too predictable that teams know that Moss won't go deep on 3rd down so they tighten their coverage on the rest of the WRs. Go figure.
     

  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from emilycuba33. Show emilycuba33's posts

    Re: Any thoughts about Moss...

    posted at 12/7/2009 11:54 AM EST

    In Response to Re: Any thoughts about Moss...:
    if moss and welker are both getting doubled teamed why do we still try and force the ball. There has to be  else someone open.
    Posted by wmo1679


    Totally agree with you!!  Does anyone have the stats on how many times Baker and/or Watson have even been thrown to this year.  In the preseason BB kept going on about this being the deepest, most talented group of TE's he ever had worked with, they release Alex Smith? and send Thomas to NO and we keep two that we don't even utilize on offense other than as extra O-lineman.  They are blockers, that is it!!

    If 4 players are being used to defend 2 of ours, then we must have at least 2 people open.  Brady's favorite receiver was always the open one - doesn't seem that way anymore!!!
     

  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from shenanigan. Show shenanigan's posts

    Re: Any thoughts about Moss...

    posted at 12/7/2009 11:56 AM EST

    He is a reciever, he only touches the ball a few times a game when the ball is thrown to him. 
    Watch other teams sometime, recievers have games where they disappear.  A defense can double or triple guys, Rice had bad games too.  He is one of the top guys in the league, he scored a TD yesterday and had 66 yards.  When he starts dropping catches come back.
     

  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from pochen23. Show pochen23's posts

    Re: Any thoughts about Moss...

    posted at 12/7/2009 11:58 AM EST

    Sorry for the triple post, I just find these very intersting. But if you look at Welker in 2007. His yards after catch number were about 6 yards in 3rd down, very consistent compare to his 1st and 2nd down numbers. However, his yards after catch number dip to 3.7 in 3rd down compare to high 4 in 1st and 2nd down. It is very telling that the offense just doesn't play the same way anymore. Brady is relying too much on Welker, which lower his effectiveness, and actually under-used Moss a bit on other situations especially on 3rd down when they used to go deep with him. This can also be tributed to Brady not being as accurate as he used to and often not hitting his receivers on the run.

    I think the offense plays much better when Vollmer is starting. It just seems that Brady doesn't have the time to throw the last couple games. BB isn't dumb, he probably inactive Volmer again to get a clear comparison of the two LT against the same team.
     

  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from newenglanderinexile. Show newenglanderinexile's posts

    Re: Any thoughts about Moss...

    posted at 12/7/2009 12:02 PM EST

    Moss is leading the NFL with 1058 receiving yards and is second in receiving touchdowns (9, behind Fitzgerald's 10).  How can he be accused of disappearing? 
     

  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from BTownExpress. Show BTownExpress's posts

    Re: Any thoughts about Moss...

    posted at 12/7/2009 12:19 PM EST

    Interestingly, Albert Breer recently posted up the following from his recent article: 

    Brady cited Donte' Stallworth and Jabar Gaffney of weapons that are now gone, while being careful to say the new guys are good players, too. But he did manage to point out that in 2007, "That was a new offense, and it caught a lot of people off-guard."

    http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/extra_points/2009/12/brady_its_a_dif.html


     

  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmcintosh. Show andrewmcintosh's posts

    Re: Any thoughts about Moss...

    posted at 12/7/2009 12:37 PM EST

    You have to understand, and this has been stated a before, that any defense can take away a WR if they're willing to dedicate the necessary resources.  Moss faces bump coverage with at least one safety shaded in his direction, and on many plays he faces straight bracket double coverage.  If he runs any route deep, it's a guarantee that a safety has been assigned to cover it up top.  All great WRs face double teams, but the real issue is that Brady has no real WR3.  Sam Aiken is not the answer, even tho he has been giving awesome effort the past few weeks.  With no comfortable WR3, and horrendous blocking at times, teams can afford to double moss all day and send blitzes at brady.  It's inexcusable that the Pats didn't pursue a better WR3 option in the off season, no team should be able to double one player and send additional pressure, it should result in them getting burnt.
     

  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from ewhite1065. Show ewhite1065's posts

    Re: Any thoughts about Moss...

    posted at 12/7/2009 12:39 PM EST

    Moss runs deep patterns most of the time. That clears out the middle for guys like Welker. Combine that with the double and triple team defense he receives regularly and that takes him out of a lot of the action. I might question our strategy on offense as when I have seen Moss coming across the middle in shorter patterns he has been more effective. We saw that a little earlier in the year when Welker was out.
     

  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from batou. Show batou's posts

    Re: Any thoughts about Moss...

    posted at 12/7/2009 1:07 PM EST

    In Response to Re: Any thoughts about Moss...:
    His effort lately has been pretty bad.. On the 3rd and 2 little screen to Faulk, Moss made a lame arm flagging effort to block Wilson, and he tackles Faulk inches short of a 1st. Any block at all and its an easy first down.. And on that interception in the end zone he didn't exactly break a sweat to knock the ball down.
    Posted by patsfansyr


    Noticed the same play.  Moss is great, but that is an excellent example of his tendency to take plays off.  I'd be OK with it, if it were a running play or a screen to the other side of the field, BUT A SCREEN TO YOUR SIDE OF THE FIELD WHERE YOU HAVE RESPONSIBILITY TO BLOCK A DB?!?  SHOW SOME EFFORT.  Was he unable to block the DB because he was double teamed?
     

  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Marcus1973. Show Marcus1973's posts

    Re: Any thoughts about Moss...

    posted at 12/7/2009 1:18 PM EST

    We all knew what the Patriots were getting with Moss when they got him.
     

  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from SoxinBoston. Show SoxinBoston's posts

    Re: Any thoughts about Moss...

    posted at 12/7/2009 1:24 PM EST

    In Response to Re: Any thoughts about Moss...:
    You have to understand, and this has been stated a before, that any defense can take away a WR if they're willing to dedicate the necessary resources.  Moss faces bump coverage with at least one safety shaded in his direction, and on many plays he faces straight bracket double coverage.  If he runs any route deep, it's a guarantee that a safety has been assigned to cover it up top.  All great WRs face double teams, but the real issue is that Brady has no real WR3.  Sam Aiken is not the answer, even tho he has been giving awesome effort the past few weeks.  With no comfortable WR3, and horrendous blocking at times, teams can afford to double moss all day and  send blitzes at brady.  It's inexcusable that the Pats didn't pursue a better WR3 option in the off season, no team should be able to double one player and send additional pressure, it should result in them getting burnt.
    Posted by andrewmcintosh


    Not using Ben Watson AT ALL is killing them as well.

     

  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from apdynasty23. Show apdynasty23's posts

    Re: Any thoughts about Moss...

    posted at 12/7/2009 1:42 PM EST

    One thing we forget is that Moss, in the past, has always "packed it in" when his team is not performing well or he's not getting the ball. We thought we were getting a different Moss and we thought we were right in 2007 because hey, as SOON AS he was plugged into this offense, he was making big plays all over. The team never lost until the Super Bowl so Moss never experienced any of those scenarios with the Patriots. Last year, he was getting the ball at a pretty good rate but not as much as 2007, and he knew Brady was done for the year, so we didn't hear much. Remember, the team was still winning. Not to mention, we had our leaders on defense in Bruschi and Vrabel.

    THIS YEAR, the team had some weaknesses going in and now it seems like the coaching is subpar too. With everything seemingly in place for a title run, Moss (as is the rest of the team and us fans) is dismayed at how we're performing. On some plays, I see him just run out of bounds without trying to make a play for the ball. Other times, if he's not a part of the play, it seems like he's taking the play off.

    My point is, this is the first time in Moss' tenure with New England that the team is NOT invincible and has plenty of questions all around. I'm not going to say Moss is a malcontent and we should get rid of him but I think he'll get better as the season progresses.