Are our Secondary Coaches Competent?

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    Re: Are our Secondary Coaches Competent?

    In Response to Are our Secondary Coaches Competent?:
    [QUOTE]Boyer coaches the CB and Patricia the safeties.  I seriously question the coaching these guys are getting.  What is Boyer and Patricia's experience coaching the secondary before they came to the Patriots. Butler, Wilhite, Wheately and Meriweather are prime examples of high picks never developing.  Sergio Brown and James Inhegibo should only be playing on special teams. 
    Posted by David233[/QUOTE]
    I agree alot of what is happening to the secondary is coaching. How is it that we started a 4th string center this year, and he competed like a Starter. Scarnechia always takes what he is given and provides top notch coaching.
     
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  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: Are our Secondary Coaches Competent?

    In Response to Re: Are our Secondary Coaches Competent?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Are our Secondary Coaches Competent? : DMC is playing hurt? Is that a fact or are you guessing? btw, it is the technique everyone is critisizing - not turning around to look for the ball for example !!!
    Posted by PatFanInBA2[/QUOTE]

    A game or two ago he could barely lift his arm by the end of the game.  Yes it's a fact.  Check the injury reports from a couple of games back and you'll see he's had a shoulder problem.  I suspect there are other health issues as well but that is a 'guess.'

    I've read the posts on this thread and I've seen a critique or two on technique but not by 'everyone.'  I realize the DMC pick Saturday was not the most respresentative of his play thus far but he wouldn't have made the pick if he hadn't been looking for the ball.  I'm not saying the coaching is perfect; no coaching is.  But from reading what's been posted on this thread you'd get the impression that it's been dreadful and it hasn't been that.

    That this pass defense hasn't given up more points is remarkable.  
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from jonbam. Show jonbam's posts

    Re: Are our Secondary Coaches Competent?

    Ty Law would never come back to be a coach because the job does not pay enough to feed his family.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmcintosh. Show andrewmcintosh's posts

    Re: Are our Secondary Coaches Competent?

    In Response to Re: Are our Secondary Coaches Competent?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Are our Secondary Coaches Competent? : If you're expecting a 6th round draft choice to become a starting QB you must be a loon as well !!  Just a thought .  Hetchinspete. 
    Posted by Hetchinspete[/QUOTE]
    your post solidifies my point, yes if you are counting on 4-6 rounders to give you quality starting talent, you will have a very very short shelf-life in the NFL...Tom Brady is probably the greatest value pick of all time, surely you aren't suggesting that kind of thing is replacable.  Point is, Wilhite was a 2nd day pick.  You don't tend to find starting talend on day 2, when you do it's as much luck as it is anything else.  A 4th round pick cannot be termed a bust, end of story.  
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from JimfromFlorida. Show JimfromFlorida's posts

    Re: Are our Secondary Coaches Competent?

    Seriously some of you think coaching at the top level of college makes a better coach.OK

    So would you rather the DB coach from a top level college whose team has won nothing in his time there and had the worst record for DBs in their conference.
    Or the guy from some school of mines which always won and had the best DB record all the years he was the DB coach?

    Do you think it might be easier to coach the best DBs in the country at let's say at UCLA, USC, Alabama, or LSU than at some place like Navarro College or Blinn College where most if not all players are walk ons and are promised nothing.

    Now I'm not saying that is the case but it does not matter where you coach it is your success at what you do.

    Edelman came out of Kent State, Welker out of Texas Tech by the accounts of many about the coaches both Chad Jackson FL. and Kareem Brown Miami should be All Pros and Edelman and Welker out of the league.

    Itt is not where you came from it is your abilities.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Artist-Frmrly-Knwn-As-NickC1188. Show Artist-Frmrly-Knwn-As-NickC1188's posts

    Re: Are our Secondary Coaches Competent?

    In Response to Re: Are our Secondary Coaches Competent?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Are our Secondary Coaches Competent? : I really do worry about the coaching.  I never thought Butler was as good his rookie year as some others thought . . . but still he seemed just to regress in year two.  McCourty is doing the same thing, it seems.  That does make me wonder about the coaching. 
    Posted by prolate0spheroid[/QUOTE]

    It's not a coincidence

    There are keys to reading a guy's route that come from good preparation and coaching, or experience.  For great evidence, see Charles Woodson's defense on a seam route in the 3rd quarter from last night's game, where the guy ran a fake out but Woodson didn't even think about biting

    There are keys on when the ball will be thrown based on the pattern and formation, or based on plays that beat you before, that would come from good coaching and preparation, or from experience.




    And for good safety play in deep zone, watch Charlie Peprah's interception from last night's Bears game.  He didn't make a play on the ball, but he was in position over the top of Earl Bennett, took a good route, reacted in time with the throw, and was in the right place. 

    Or better yet, watch Jairus Byrd's break on Tim Tebow's seam route, which he seemed completely keyed in on.

    Those breaks come from seeing plays on film and knowing where to be.  Players matter and none of the Patriots' safeties know how to take a good route anywhere, let alone read and react at faster-than-War-and-Peace time, but coaching matters too




    I hate to say it, but we haven't had a competent secondary coach since Mangini.  After that, we survived on the fumes of Asante Samuel and especially Rodney Harrison being experienced veterans
     
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    Re: Are our Secondary Coaches Competent?

    In Response to Re: Are our Secondary Coaches Competent?:
    [QUOTE]Ty Law would never come back to be a coach because the job does not pay enough to feed his family.
    Posted by jonbam[/QUOTE]

    he took less to be a veteran mentor on the Jets

    and he's infinitely more competent at the nuances of the cornerback position than any of the coaches on the Patriots staff not named Belichick.

    All of our corners regress.  Something needs to be changed.



    Wheatley was great in that Indianapolis game in 2008 before he got hurt.  McCourty survived off of his Rutgers experience and coaching, but now he's regressed.  Leigh Bodden had 7 picks in a year, then he regressed.


    New secondary coaches are needed, especially former players who will garner respect.  I'd have given almost anything in a trade last offseason or a lot money-wise to sign Champ Bailey.  Look at how good their young guy Goodman is playing making breaks on the ball like on his pick-6 against the Jets and tell me that isn't at least partly Champ Bailey's tutelage
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from agcsbill. Show agcsbill's posts

    Re: Are our Secondary Coaches Competent?

    Speaking of using Ty Law as a defensive back coach, why not have Bruschi, McGinnis and other Patriot alumni come back as coaches?  Why hasn't this happened with those two?
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from expertmike. Show expertmike's posts

    Re: Are our Secondary Coaches Competent?

    In Response to Re: Are our Secondary Coaches Competent?:
    [QUOTE]Seriously some of you think coaching at the top level of college makes a better coach.OK So would you rather the DB coach from a top level college whose team has won nothing in his time there and had the worst record for DBs in their conference. Or the guy from some school of mines which always won and had the best DB record all the years he was the DB coach? Do you think it might be easier to coach the best DBs in the country at let's say at UCLA, USC, Alabama, or LSU than at some place like Navarro College or Blinn College where most if not all players are walk ons and are promised nothing. Now I'm not saying that is the case but it does not matter where you coach it is your success at what you do. Edelman came out of Kent State, Welker out of Texas Tech by the accounts of many about the coaches both Chad Jackson FL. and Kareem Brown Miami should be All Pros and Edelman and Welker out of the league. Itt is not where you came from it is your abilities.
    Posted by JimfromFlorida[/QUOTE]

    ================================================
    but it does not matter where you coach it is your success at what you do
    ================================================

    Sorry, no way South Dakota School of Mines and the Alabama, for example, football program are similar enough to say success at SDSM is in any way equalivent to success at Alabama - so therefore the defensive coordinator at SDSM is more qualified to take a role at a HIGHER level (Pro) than someone coaching at Alabama.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Paul_K. Show Paul_K's posts

    Re: Are our Secondary Coaches Competent?

    Too many Patriots secondary guys get injured.  Their starting CB Bodden is on IR.  Their CB of the future, Dowling, is on IR.  A bunch of defensive backfield guys are gone at this point. 

    I think the secondary coaches are working with nothing but duct tape.  We're asking the wrong questions.  Where is the talent?

    Question 1:  does BB and staff draft a lot of often-injured bugboys?  Is that why nobody at all is on the field in December?

    Question 2:  Does the training staff set up the defensive backs to often get injured, by making all of their tendons high-strung for more speed?    Is this a mistake?  Are these guys injured by bad luck or by a bad training philosophy?

    Question 3:  how well does the philosophy, "there are always  lots of somewhat adequate defensive backs hanging around in the NFL" work?  Is the 65th best cornerback in the league much of a dropoff from the median cornerback?  These coaches are working with Edelman, Slater and Ross Ventrone, a recovering quarterback, a wideout, and a special teams specialist that goes up and down the roster like a yoyo.  What can the coaches accomplish in the way of defensive consistency by maybe January 13?

    BB gets a drafting pass from me for drafting McCourty, defensive rookie of the year last year, and Chung isn't bad when he isn't injured. 
     
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    Re: Are our Secondary Coaches Competent?

    In Response to Re: Are our Secondary Coaches Competent?:
    [QUOTE]Speaking of using Ty Law as a defensive back coach, why not have Bruschi, McGinnis and other Patriot alumni come back as coaches?  Why hasn't this happened with those two?
    Posted by agcsbill[/QUOTE]

    I think Bruschi and McGinnest might eventually, but Bruschi has said he enjoys his analyst gig and that he needs time away from the game so he doesn't miss playing so much.  I think he'd make a great coach.  He knew the game and what it took to play it at its highest level.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from JimfromFlorida. Show JimfromFlorida's posts

    Re: Are our Secondary Coaches Competent?

    In Response to Re: Are our Secondary Coaches Competent?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Are our Secondary Coaches Competent? : ================================================ but it does not matter where you coach it is your success at what you do ================================================ Sorry, no way South Dakota School of Mines and the Alabama, for example, football program are similar enough to say success at SDSM is in any way equalivent to success at Alabama - so therefore the defensive coordinator at SDSM is more qualified to take a role at a HIGHER level (Pro) than someone coaching at Alabama.
    Posted by expertmike[/QUOTE]

    I'm saying making the best DBs in HS better in the highest levels of college is far easier than taking walkons at the lowest levels of college and making them a cohesive functioning group.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from gmbill. Show gmbill's posts

    Re: Are our Secondary Coaches Competent?


    We have a secondary that has not played a full season due to injuries, additions and subtractions. On most teams the secondary improves throughout the year as they play together and learn each others style. We are still in full on learning and adjusting mode.

    For where we sit today, top of the AFC, I would say the coaching has been pretty bad a--.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from tompenny. Show tompenny's posts

    Re: Are our Secondary Coaches Competent?

    Get talent and have a better secondary. Simple as that. Other than Asante who it was obvious was above average what DB has left the Pats and done anything? So every other coaching staff in the NFL is terrible too.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from mighty2012. Show mighty2012's posts

    Re: Are our Secondary Coaches Competent?

    Boo hooo ... we are only the best team in the AFC, drastic coaching changes are clearly needed.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from dbincpumpkin. Show dbincpumpkin's posts

    Re: Are our Secondary Coaches Competent?

    In Response to Re: Are our Secondary Coaches Competent?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Are our Secondary Coaches Competent? : THIS, in spades.  If you were coaching Sergio Brown, Sterling Moore, Julian Edelman, Nate Jones, and Kyle Arrington is your stud guy???  Good luck with that. Besides none of those other guys (wheatley, butler, etc) blew up after leaving NE, it's just poor drafting and poor overall talent.  Best coaches on planet earth can't change that.
    Posted by andrewmcintosh[/QUOTE]

    I disagree 1000%.  A big part of the Pats problems in the secondary is coaching.  I offer the following; (1) the consistently poor technique played by DMC, both tackling and especially in defending the pass;  he hardly ever locates the ball in flight and takes bad angles in defending the run (e.g. end around by Don Brown Colts in 3rd quarter results in touchdown; (2) Cornerbacks never play up on the line and try to keep receivers from getting a free release; this is especially importnt in short yardage situations like happened yesterday when MCD let his receiver catch a 6 yd pass for 1st down on 3rd and 9; he was so far off the line of scrimmage he didn't have a chance to stop the play (3) constant poor play from the safeties in helping out.

    I do not believe for one minute that this is all the fault of the personel;  For one DMC is a first round draft choice who was a probowler his 1st year; secondly, there are two many defensive backs weve going thru over the last two years, for it to be all the talent level.  I don't buy it and neither should any Pats fan.

    I say, get a defensive coordinator in here that can do the job because the current crop of coaches simply cannot!!
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: Are our Secondary Coaches Competent?

    <<I don't buy it and neither should any Pats fan.>>

    I say again - WOW!  As I posted earlier in this thread, that's a pretty tough crowd to coach up. You really think that better coaching could turn around the guys who have been playing safety these past few weeks?  Count me among the Pats fans who simply do not agree with you, dbincpumpkin.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatFanInBA2. Show PatFanInBA2's posts

    Re: Are our Secondary Coaches Competent?

    In Response to Re: Are our Secondary Coaches Competent?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Are our Secondary Coaches Competent? : A game or two ago he could barely lift his arm by the end of the game.  Yes it's a fact.  Check the injury reports from a couple of games back and you'll see he's had a shoulder problem.  I suspect there are other health issues as well but that is a 'guess.' I've read the posts on this thread and I've seen a critique or two on technique but not by 'everyone.'  I realize the DMC pick Saturday was not the most respresentative of his play thus far but he wouldn't have made the pick if he hadn't been looking for the ball.  I'm not saying the coaching is perfect; no coaching is.  But from reading what's been posted on this thread you'd get the impression that it's been dreadful and it hasn't been that. That this pass defense hasn't given up more points is remarkable.  
    Posted by ATJ[/QUOTE]

    fair observation..



     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatFanInBA2. Show PatFanInBA2's posts

    Re: Are our Secondary Coaches Competent?

    On another thread, Digger posted the following stats..

    Posts: 2468
    First: 9/8/2009
    Last: 12/27/2011
    Kevin Walter 29 yard reception
    Reggie Wayne 34 yard reception
    Austin Collie 25 yard reception
    Larry Fitzgerald 39 yard reception
    Early Doucet 27 yard reception
    Victor Cruz 99 yard reception
    Damian Williams 48 yard reception
    Nate Washington 26 yard reception
    Torrey Smith 29 yard reception
    Denarius Moore 61 yard reception
    Darrius Heyward-Bey 53 yard reception
    Dwayne Bowe 25 yard reception
    Terrance Copper 43 yard reception
    Percy Harvin 36 yard reception
    Jabar Gaffney 29 yard reception
    Sammie Stroughter 39 yard reception
    Brandon LaFell 91 yard reception
    Demaryius Thomas 47 yard reception
    Stevie Johnson 55 yard reception
    David Nelson 30 yard reception
    Mike Wallace 46 yard reception
    Malcom Floyd 30 yard reception
    Vincent Brown 27 yard reception
    Calvin Johnson 46 yard reception
    Nate Burleson 30 yard reception
    DeSean Jackson 33 yard reception
    Jason Avant 27 yard reception
    Riley Cooper 28 yard reception
    Michael Crabtree 41 yard reception
    Ricardo Lockette 44 yard reception
    Earl Bennett 49 yard reception
    Julio Jones 40 yard reception
    Roddy White 26 yard reception

    This list is all the receivers that had 25+ yard receptions not thrown to by Brady, Brees or Rodgers in week 16.

    That's a lot of DBs getting burnt. It's happening to every team, not just ours.
    check out...


    pretty informative data - if this is happening to other teams as well, who is the best (or pretty good) secondary's coach in the NFL today ?
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: Are our Secondary Coaches Competent?

    In Response to Re: Are our Secondary Coaches Competent?:
    [QUOTE]On another thread, Digger posted the following stats.. digger0862 Posts: 2468 First: 9/8/2009 Last: 12/27/2011 Kevin Walter 29 yard reception Reggie Wayne 34 yard reception Austin Collie 25 yard reception Larry Fitzgerald 39 yard reception Early Doucet 27 yard reception Victor Cruz 99 yard reception Damian Williams 48 yard reception Nate Washington 26 yard reception Torrey Smith 29 yard reception Denarius Moore 61 yard reception Darrius Heyward-Bey 53 yard reception Dwayne Bowe 25 yard reception Terrance Copper 43 yard reception Percy Harvin 36 yard reception Jabar Gaffney 29 yard reception Sammie Stroughter 39 yard reception Brandon LaFell 91 yard reception Demaryius Thomas 47 yard reception Stevie Johnson 55 yard reception David Nelson 30 yard reception Mike Wallace 46 yard reception Malcom Floyd 30 yard reception Vincent Brown 27 yard reception Calvin Johnson 46 yard reception Nate Burleson 30 yard reception DeSean Jackson 33 yard reception Jason Avant 27 yard reception Riley Cooper 28 yard reception Michael Crabtree 41 yard reception Ricardo Lockette 44 yard reception Earl Bennett 49 yard reception Julio Jones 40 yard reception Roddy White 26 yard reception This list is all the receivers that had 25+ yard receptions not thrown to by Brady, Brees or Rodgers in week 16. That's a lot of DBs getting burnt. It's happening to every team, not just ours. check out... http://www.boston.com/community/forums.html?plckForumPage=ForumDiscussion&plckDiscussionId=Cat%3aSportsForum%3a9690Discussion%3a2575f055-1bb6-4089-b1ab-83fad75ea451&plckFindPostKey=Cat:SportsForum:9690Discussion:2575f055-1bb6-4089-b1ab-83fad75ea451Post:0f906ca0-64f3-40b3-ace0-ef519fa4d4b5 pretty informative data - if this is happening to other teams as well, who is the best (or pretty good) secondary's coach in the NFL today ?
    Posted by PatFanInBA2[/QUOTE]

    That is, to say the least, eye opening and, from my perspective, food for thought.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from dbincpumpkin. Show dbincpumpkin's posts

    Re: Are our Secondary Coaches Competent?

    In Response to Re: Are our Secondary Coaches Competent?:
    [QUOTE]<<I don't buy it and neither should any Pats fan. />> I say again - WOW!  As I posted earlier in this thread, that's a pretty tough crowd to coach up. You really think that better coaching could turn around the guys who have been playing safety these past few weeks?  Count me among the Pats fans who simply do not agree with you, dbincpumpkin.
    Posted by ATJ[/QUOTE]

    Sure it's all ther safeties fault;  it's the safeties fault that DMC does not turn his head to locate the ball, it's the safeties fault that DMC is always being beaten by several yards in defending the pass, it's the safeties fault that the Cback does not contend with ther receiver to not allow a free release off the line. !!  This is DB101 buddy and you are clueless !
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from dbincpumpkin. Show dbincpumpkin's posts

    Re: Are our Secondary Coaches Competent?

    In Response to Re: Are our Secondary Coaches Competent?:
    [QUOTE]Wow - it's the coaching?  A defensive secondary (with perhaps one exception) comprising the blind, the lame and the hault gives up lots of yardage but is slightly about average (or a little better) in points surrendered and it's the coaching? With all due respect to the knowledgeable posters who preceded me on this thread I must disagree.  Bad play calling from time to time?  Name a coach who doesn't do that. Arrington leads the lead in picks and McCourty is playing hurt.  Apart from that I see an injury riddled secondary that is bearing up in large measure because of the coaching.
    Posted by ATJ[/QUOTE]
      You need to look at the big picture.  Our secondary has been terrible for the last two years.  We have had a group of defensive back that have been drafted in the 2nd round, DBs from other teams who have been all pro and one on the team right now that was a 1st round draft choice and an all pro !  I don't believe for on eminute that it is all talent and injuries.  Sure, we have had our sghare of injuries, but we have also had very bad coaching from our defensive coaches !  I think it is time to stop blaming this on the talent level and supposed injuries.  For one, DMC stunk out of the gate at the beginning of the season when he was injury free !!!  Our defensive coaches need to go !!~!!!  Period !
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from dbincpumpkin. Show dbincpumpkin's posts

    Re: Are our Secondary Coaches Competent?

    In Response to Re: Are our Secondary Coaches Competent?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Are our Secondary Coaches Competent? :   You need to look at the big picture.  Our secondary has been terrible for the last two years.  We have had a group of defensive back that have been drafted in the 2nd round, DBs from other teams who have been all pro and one on the team right now that was a 1st round draft choice and an all pro !  I don't believe for on eminute that it is all talent and injuries.  Sure, we have had our sghare of injuries, but we have also had very bad coaching from our defensive coaches !  I think it is time to stop blaming this on the talent level and supposed injuries.  For one, DMC stunk out of the gate at the beginning of the season when he was injury free !!!  Our defensive coaches need to go !!~!!!  Period !
    Posted by dbincpumpkin[/QUOTE]

    and play calling is only one part of coaching pal; how about recognizing the bad technique being played and coach it up and fix it;  jeez, this is low hanging fruit that has been a problem all year long with DMC and has nothing to do with talent level or bad play on the part of the safeties.  If you can't see that, you are blind !!
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from dbincpumpkin. Show dbincpumpkin's posts

    Re: Are our Secondary Coaches Competent?

    In Response to Re: Are our Secondary Coaches Competent?:
    [QUOTE]<<I don't buy it and neither should any Pats fan. />> I say again - WOW!  As I posted earlier in this thread, that's a pretty tough crowd to coach up. You really think that better coaching could turn around the guys who have been playing safety these past few weeks?  Count me among the Pats fans who simply do not agree with you, dbincpumpkin.
    Posted by ATJ[/QUOTE]

    You need to read the post hey DB's turn your freakin heads
     
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