Are teams good at drafting one position?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatFanInBA2. Show PatFanInBA2's posts

    Are teams good at drafting one position?

    It seems to me that the Giants have consistently scored in drafting excellent defensive players - 

    Jason Pierre Paul 
    Jason Tuck
    Osi Umeniyora

    Do teams generally excel at evaluating talent at a particular position / phase of the game or is their coaching good at one area of specialty or this too small of a sample to draw conclusions?
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from patthepatriot666. Show patthepatriot666's posts

    Re: Are teams good at drafting one position?

    yes and no
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ytsejamer1. Show Ytsejamer1's posts

    Re: Are teams good at drafting one position?

    The Lions were awesome at drafting receivers...wait...errr...nevermind! :)

    I think your sample is too small to draw from...but there's probably some that are better than others at different positions.  I'd say the Pats have a decent record with developing backup QBs.  They utterly fail at drafting wide receivers...there's been nothing since Branch and Givens in 2002.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from timesedge. Show timesedge's posts

    Re: Are teams good at drafting one position?

    What about the Patriots:
    Bledsoe
    Brady
    Cassel

    And very possibly:
    Hoyer
    Mallet
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from siestafiesta. Show siestafiesta's posts

    Re: Are teams good at drafting one position?

    I think it's a combination of scouting, coaching, and scheme.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Army2LT. Show Army2LT's posts

    Re: Are teams good at drafting one position?

    I think it's all dumb luck.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from LazarusintheSanatorium. Show LazarusintheSanatorium's posts

    Re: Are teams good at drafting one position?

    I absolutely think so, and imho most 24-7 hard-core Draft enthusiasts would agree...

    Quick 5 minute generalization off the top of my head:

    Pats=QB, and a decent argument for interior O-Linemen + Inside Linebackers (even no-names like Guyton, become decently serviceable <minus last round pick Oscar Lua>)

    Bills=Tough call with all the coaching & scheme changes, but if forced to make 1, I'd go with: Those O-Tackle/O-Guard 'tweeners along with those same DT/DE 'tweeners + All-purpose nothing spectacular but every down RBs.

    Jets=3-4 Defensive End, along with an above-average acquiring of guys with decent playing skill within the standard archetypal wideout position, and finally CB (jury's out on Kyle Wison still though).

    Dolphins=freakishly good big-bodied Runningbacks whom can still break any run for a TD, b/c they offer both size, skill, quickness, and serious tackle-breaking abilities <'fins recognize & then acquire GOOD runners>).  Along the D front, Miami does a superb job imho of combining size + skill (meaning: size & physical prowess without forsaking speed & quickness of agility)-amongst their secondary positions (ALL of them), and also on Defense, Dolphins definitely acquire an abover-average amount of talent of most-often (traditionally) 4-3 OLBs.    

    Baltimore=For some reason, Baltimore's scouts are able to most often, just nail quality shifty speedsters at both wide receiver and runningback.  On Defense, Baltimore rarely gets superstar studs, BUT Baltimore just never seems to ever once actually miss when they're selecting their brand of ferocious, hard-charging, hard-hitting, full-effort defenders.

    NY Giants: On Offense, they effortlessly nab decent Offensive Tackles, and when they actually pick a RB, they always get GOOD ones (esp. guys that freakishly combo power & shiftiness).  On D, NO team acquires freakishly athletic monster guys along the D-Line front like NY does (particularly at DE).  Along with that NY nabs quality Safeties (but often overpays draft-wise) along with above average 4-3 OLBs for cheap. 

    Dallas: An easy 1...they target #1 game-changers & game-breakers at those critical skilled positions (often times largely at the expense of other positions).  Guys who hopefully best will yield the most probability to become #1 Wideouts, #1 Runningbacks, Elite 3-4 Outside Linebackers.  Glitz, glamour...and sometimes st#pidity.

    Philly=Eagles in alot of ways are a product combo of what the rest of the teams in their division do adequately & above-average...OTs & next OGs (usually monsters), then above-average speedster wideouts & runningbacks (not as #1 quality for potential returns as Dallas), & on D- same as NY, quality DTs/DEs (but nowhere on the same plain as the G-men).  

    Redskins=Lmao...too soon to tell.  Subtract THIS year's 2011 NFL Draft (maybe '10 too), and I can't recall 1 single Washington Draft Class which I didn't come away saying, "Wow, that's a cr#ppy looking crop of players you got: Good Job!"  2011 was exceptionally excellent for Washington (verses anyone): BOTH RBs that I loved & touted a millionX over pre-draft=Roy Helu & Evan Royster.  Ryan Kerrigan DE/OLB, Jarvis Jenkins DT/DE, and Leonard Hankerson & Niles Paul @ wideout...any team leaves draft day with those 6 guys should be happy as f-.  Most often for 10 years, 'Skins draft awful then pay a trillion dollars to the biggest FA on the market that year (that's their long-term gameplan).

    Steelers=Freakish 3-4 LBs they never miss on, intelligent sure-handed possession wide receivers.

    Green Bay=Pack seems to nail positions that everyone else, NEVER hits on-#2 and/or slot wideout, pass-catching TE, 3rd down RB, Interior D-Lineman, Weakside pass-rush specialist, special-teams, short-yardage back, back-up QB waiting in the wings, all-around secondary good value guys...


    ~THIS is just a start here (not even done with examples from half the teams)...

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Are teams good at drafting one position?

    In Response to Re: Are teams good at drafting one position?:
    [QUOTE]I absolutely think so, and imho most 24-7 hard-core Draft enthusiasts would agree... Quick 5 minute generalization off the top of my head: Pats =QB, and a decent argument for interior O-Linemen + Inside Linebackers (even no-names like Guyton, become decently serviceable <minus last round pick Oscar Lua />) Bills =Tough call with all the coaching & scheme changes, but if forced to make 1, I'd go with: Those O-Tackle/O-Guard 'tweeners along with those same DT/DE 'tweeners + All-purpose nothing spectacular but every down RBs. Jets =3-4 Defensive End, along with an above-average acquiring of guys with decent playing skill within the standard archetypal wideout position, and finally CB (jury's out on Kyle Wison still though). Dolphins =freakishly good big-bodied Runningbacks whom can still break any run for a TD, b/c they offer both size, skill, quickness, and serious tackle-breaking abilities <'fins recognize & then acquire GOOD runners>).  Along the D front, Miami does a superb job imho of combining size + skill (meaning: size & physical prowess without forsaking speed & quickness of agility)-amongst their secondary positions (ALL of them), and also on Defense, Dolphins definitely acquire an abover-average amount of talent of most-often (traditionally) 4-3 OLBs.     Baltimore =For some reason, Baltimore's scouts are able to most often, just nail quality shifty speedsters at both wide receiver and runningback.  On Defense, Baltimore rarely gets superstar studs, BUT Baltimore just never seems to ever once actually miss when they're selecting their brand of ferocious, hard-charging, hard-hitting, full-effort defenders. NY Giants : On Offense, they effortlessly nab decent Offensive Tackles, and when they actually pick a RB, they always get GOOD ones (esp. guys that freakishly combo power & shiftiness).  On D, NO team acquires freakishly athletic monster guys along the D-Line front like NY does (particularly at DE).  Along with that NY nabs quality Safeties (but often overpays draft-wise) along with above average 4-3 OLBs for cheap.  Dallas : An easy 1...they target #1 game-changers & game-breakers at those critical skilled positions (often times largely at the expense of other positions).  Guys who hopefully best will yield the most probability to become #1 Wideouts, #1 Runningbacks, Elite 3-4 Outside Linebackers.  Glitz, glamour...and sometimes st#pidity. Philly =Eagles in alot of ways are a product combo of what the rest of the teams in their division do adequately & above-average...OTs & next OGs (usually monsters), then above-average speedster wideouts & runningbacks (not as #1 quality for potential returns as Dallas), & on D- same as NY, quality DTs/DEs (but nowhere on the same plain as the G-men).   Redskins =Lmao...too soon to tell.  Subtract THIS year's 2011 NFL Draft (maybe '10 too), and I can't recall 1 single Washington Draft Class which I didn't come away saying, "Wow, that's a cr#ppy looking crop of players you got: Good Job!"  2011 was exceptionally excellent for Washington (verses anyone): BOTH RBs that I loved & touted a millionX over pre-draft=Roy Helu & Evan Royster.  Ryan Kerrigan DE/OLB, Jarvis Jenkins DT/DE, and Leonard Hankerson & Niles Paul @ wideout...any team leaves draft day with those 6 guys should be happy as f-.  Most often for 10 years, 'Skins draft awful then pay a trillion dollars to the biggest FA on the market that year (that's their long-term gameplan). Steelers =Freakish 3-4 LBs they never miss on, intelligent sure-handed possession wide receivers. Green Bay =Pack seems to nail positions that everyone else, NEVER hits on-#2 and/or slot wideout, pass-catching TE, 3rd down RB, Interior D-Lineman, Weakside pass-rush specialist, special-teams, short-yardage back, back-up QB waiting in the wings, all-around secondary good value guys... ~THIS is just a start here (not even done with examples from half the teams)...
    Posted by LazarusintheSanatorium[/QUOTE]

    Explain to me how the Pats have been good drafters of QBs.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from LazarusintheSanatorium. Show LazarusintheSanatorium's posts

    Re: Are teams good at drafting one position?

    In Response to Re: Are teams good at drafting one position?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Are teams good at drafting one position? : Explain to me how the Pats have been good drafters of QBs.
    Posted by BabeParilli[/QUOTE]

    Lmao...It is SO funny babe, because I swear to gahd- At the very moment I was writing this, I said to myself, "Babe's gonna chime in ASAP, in order to attempt to discount this in any way possible." 
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Are teams good at drafting one position?

    In Response to Re: Are teams good at drafting one position?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Are teams good at drafting one position? : Lmao...It is SO funny babe, because I swear to gahd- At the very moment I was writing this, I said to myself, " Babe's gonna chime in ASAP, in order to attempt to discount this in any way possible." 
    Posted by LazarusintheSanatorium[/QUOTE]

    Your powers of precognition are impressive.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ytsejamer1. Show Ytsejamer1's posts

    Re: Are teams good at drafting one position?

    Laz...good call on the Steelers and their LB drafts.  They seem to have a factory somewhere in Pittsburgh that spits those guys out year in, year out, decade in, decade out.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatFanInBA2. Show PatFanInBA2's posts

    Re: Are teams good at drafting one position?

    In Response to Re: Are teams good at drafting one position?:
    [QUOTE]I absolutely think so, and imho most 24-7 hard-core Draft enthusiasts would agree... Quick 5 minute generalization off the top of my head: Pats =QB, and a decent argument for interior O-Linemen + Inside Linebackers (even no-names like Guyton, become decently serviceable <minus last round pick Oscar Lua />) Bills =Tough call with all the coaching & scheme changes, but if forced to make 1, I'd go with: Those O-Tackle/O-Guard 'tweeners along with those same DT/DE 'tweeners + All-purpose nothing spectacular but every down RBs. Jets =3-4 Defensive End, along with an above-average acquiring of guys with decent playing skill within the standard archetypal wideout position, and finally CB (jury's out on Kyle Wison still though). Dolphins =freakishly good big-bodied Runningbacks whom can still break any run for a TD, b/c they offer both size, skill, quickness, and serious tackle-breaking abilities <'fins recognize & then acquire GOOD runners>).  Along the D front, Miami does a superb job imho of combining size + skill (meaning: size & physical prowess without forsaking speed & quickness of agility)-amongst their secondary positions (ALL of them), and also on Defense, Dolphins definitely acquire an abover-average amount of talent of most-often (traditionally) 4-3 OLBs.     Baltimore =For some reason, Baltimore's scouts are able to most often, just nail quality shifty speedsters at both wide receiver and runningback.  On Defense, Baltimore rarely gets superstar studs, BUT Baltimore just never seems to ever once actually miss when they're selecting their brand of ferocious, hard-charging, hard-hitting, full-effort defenders. NY Giants : On Offense, they effortlessly nab decent Offensive Tackles, and when they actually pick a RB, they always get GOOD ones (esp. guys that freakishly combo power & shiftiness).  On D, NO team acquires freakishly athletic monster guys along the D-Line front like NY does (particularly at DE).  Along with that NY nabs quality Safeties (but often overpays draft-wise) along with above average 4-3 OLBs for cheap.  Dallas : An easy 1...they target #1 game-changers & game-breakers at those critical skilled positions (often times largely at the expense of other positions).  Guys who hopefully best will yield the most probability to become #1 Wideouts, #1 Runningbacks, Elite 3-4 Outside Linebackers.  Glitz, glamour...and sometimes st#pidity. Philly =Eagles in alot of ways are a product combo of what the rest of the teams in their division do adequately & above-average...OTs & next OGs (usually monsters), then above-average speedster wideouts & runningbacks (not as #1 quality for potential returns as Dallas), & on D- same as NY, quality DTs/DEs (but nowhere on the same plain as the G-men).   Redskins =Lmao...too soon to tell.  Subtract THIS year's 2011 NFL Draft (maybe '10 too), and I can't recall 1 single Washington Draft Class which I didn't come away saying, "Wow, that's a cr#ppy looking crop of players you got: Good Job!"  2011 was exceptionally excellent for Washington (verses anyone): BOTH RBs that I loved & touted a millionX over pre-draft=Roy Helu & Evan Royster.  Ryan Kerrigan DE/OLB, Jarvis Jenkins DT/DE, and Leonard Hankerson & Niles Paul @ wideout...any team leaves draft day with those 6 guys should be happy as f-.  Most often for 10 years, 'Skins draft awful then pay a trillion dollars to the biggest FA on the market that year (that's their long-term gameplan). Steelers =Freakish 3-4 LBs they never miss on, intelligent sure-handed possession wide receivers. Green Bay =Pack seems to nail positions that everyone else, NEVER hits on-#2 and/or slot wideout, pass-catching TE, 3rd down RB, Interior D-Lineman, Weakside pass-rush specialist, special-teams, short-yardage back, back-up QB waiting in the wings, all-around secondary good value guys... ~THIS is just a start here (not even done with examples from half the teams)...
    Posted by LazarusintheSanatorium[/QUOTE]

    Good observation Laz. How much of this, do you think, is due to talent evaluation and how much is coaching?

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from LazarusintheSanatorium. Show LazarusintheSanatorium's posts

    Re: Are teams good at drafting one position?

    In Response to Re: Are teams good at drafting one position?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Are teams good at drafting one position? : Good observation Laz. How much of this, do you think, is due to talent evaluation and how much is coaching?
    Posted by PatFanInBA2[/QUOTE]

    Not precisely sure PfInBA, but I'd wager a guess and say the 2 gotta be intertwined, helping each other out right from the start.  Example: An exceptionally good team/head coach/positional coach keenly acute (i.e. better than most) at recognizing talent, a talented player, player with even potential for superb talent, and/or what makes for talent at that specific positional spot to begin with, CAN then tell the team's college scouts and FO Free Agent Pro Evaluators, what they're ideally in search for down to a "T".  Said team acquires said very specific type of individual player they're looking for from the get-go, and immediately (hopefully) you have an excellent positional coach with very specific strengths in certain player-coaching respects, Molding & tailoring their player with those same strong suits which were targeted, now working together & feeding one another in a far more probable-for-very-good-success manner.  

      
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from LazarusintheSanatorium. Show LazarusintheSanatorium's posts

    Re: Are teams good at drafting one position?

    In Response to Re: Are teams good at drafting one position?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Are teams good at drafting one position? : Your powers of precognition are impressive.
    Posted by BabeParilli[/QUOTE]

    You'd be shocked...
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from shenanigan. Show shenanigan's posts

    Re: Are teams good at drafting one position?

    Maybe, I tend to think that the talent surrounding a player can make them look better or worse than they are. In the early 2000's the Patriots could seemingly stick anyone on that defense and it would look good, and today the same happens with the offense. Some of those guys probably weren't as good as they were made out to be, they just had so many chances next to guys like Seymour, Vrabel, Law, Harrisson, etc. really, I don't think half those CBs were any better than the guys we have today, and Jarvis Green was a Brandon Deaderick. Solder may look good his rookie year, but I would guess if he wasn't standing next to 3 all-pro lineman and a all-pro TE his rookie campaign wouldn't be so strong. These units are fragile, and the difference between having 4 great players or 6 or 7 on offense or defense is the difference between the best teams and the worst.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from brdbreu. Show brdbreu's posts

    Re: Are teams good at drafting one position?

    In Response to Are teams good at drafting one position?:
    [QUOTE]It seems to me that the Giants have consistently scored in drafting excellent defensive players -  Jason Pierre Paul  Jason Tuck Osi Umeniyora Do teams generally excel at evaluating talent at a particular position / phase of the game or is their coaching good at one area of specialty or this too small of a sample to draw conclusions?
    Posted by PatFanInBA2[/QUOTE]

    look no further than the pats, who cant draft a wr or db to save theri life and
    reflexively trading down costing the team chances at more sbs.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from brdbreu. Show brdbreu's posts

    Re: Are teams good at drafting one position?


    n Response to Re: Are teams good at drafting one position?:
    [QUOTE]I absolutely think so, and imho most 24-7 hard-core Draft enthusiasts would agree... Quick 5 minute generalization off the top of my head: Pats =QB, and a decent argument for interior O-Linemen + Inside Linebackers (even no-names like Guyton, become decently serviceable <minus last round pick Oscar Lua />) Bills =Tough call with all the coaching & scheme changes, but if forced to make 1, I'd go with: Those O-Tackle/O-Guard 'tweeners along with those same DT/DE 'tweeners + All-purpose nothing spectacular but every down RBs. Jets =3-4 Defensive End, along with an above-average acquiring of guys with decent playing skill within the standard archetypal wideout position, and finally CB (jury's out on Kyle Wison still though). Dolphins =freakishly good big-bodied Runningbacks whom can still break any run for a TD, b/c they offer both size, skill, quickness, and serious tackle-breaking abilities <'fins recognize & then acquire GOOD runners>).  Along the D front, Miami does a superb job imho of combining size + skill (meaning: size & physical prowess without forsaking speed & quickness of agility)-amongst their secondary positions (ALL of them), and also on Defense, Dolphins definitely acquire an abover-average amount of talent of most-often (traditionally) 4-3 OLBs.     Baltimore =For some reason, Baltimore's scouts are able to most often, just nail quality shifty speedsters at both wide receiver and runningback.  On Defense, Baltimore rarely gets superstar studs, BUT Baltimore just never seems to ever once actually miss when they're selecting their brand of ferocious, hard-charging, hard-hitting, full-effort defenders. NY Giants : On Offense, they effortlessly nab decent Offensive Tackles, and when they actually pick a RB, they always get GOOD ones (esp. guys that freakishly combo power & shiftiness).  On D, NO team acquires freakishly athletic monster guys along the D-Line front like NY does (particularly at DE).  Along with that NY nabs quality Safeties (but often overpays draft-wise) along with above average 4-3 OLBs for cheap.  Dallas : An easy 1...they target #1 game-changers & game-breakers at those critical skilled positions (often times largely at the expense of other positions).  Guys who hopefully best will yield the most probability to become #1 Wideouts, #1 Runningbacks, Elite 3-4 Outside Linebackers.  Glitz, glamour...and sometimes st#pidity. Philly =Eagles in alot of ways are a product combo of what the rest of the teams in their division do adequately & above-average...OTs & next OGs (usually monsters), then above-average speedster wideouts & runningbacks (not as #1 quality for potential returns as Dallas), & on D- same as NY, quality DTs/DEs (but nowhere on the same plain as the G-men).   Redskins =Lmao...too soon to tell.  Subtract THIS year's 2011 NFL Draft (maybe '10 too), and I can't recall 1 single Washington Draft Class which I didn't come away saying, "Wow, that's a cr#ppy looking crop of players you got: Good Job!"  2011 was exceptionally excellent for Washington (verses anyone): BOTH RBs that I loved & touted a millionX over pre-draft=Roy Helu & Evan Royster.  Ryan Kerrigan DE/OLB, Jarvis Jenkins DT/DE, and Leonard Hankerson & Niles Paul @ wideout...any team leaves draft day with those 6 guys should be happy as f-.  Most often for 10 years, 'Skins draft awful then pay a trillion dollars to the biggest FA on the market that year (that's their long-term gameplan). Steelers =Freakish 3-4 LBs they never miss on, intelligent sure-handed possession wide receivers. Green Bay =Pack seems to nail positions that everyone else, NEVER hits on-#2 and/or slot wideout, pass-catching TE, 3rd down RB, Interior D-Lineman, Weakside pass-rush specialist, special-teams, short-yardage back, back-up QB waiting in the wings, all-around secondary good value guys... ~THIS is just a start here (not even done with examples from half the teams)...
    Posted by LazarusintheSanatorium[/QUOTE]

    2 quibbbles laz,

    1. guytion s@@cks
    2. re "On Defense, Baltimore rarely gets superstar studs,"
         not in my book. they cant stop drafting them starting with lewis, ed reed, ngata, suggs and on.


    happy new year to ya.


    peace

    brd/bred
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: Are teams good at drafting one position?


    I would say yes. But as Laz said, development and drafting are intertwined. We see this on the Pats most notably on the OL. Solid drafting and solid development by one of the best OL coaches in Dante. Without knowing much about the position coaches and their ability, or the scouts and their ability, it's hard to say which is more important.

    I don't know what the mix is, but both are relevant to this discussion.

    I would say the Pats are probably tops or near tops in the league at OL drafting and development. Agree with Laz on the Steelers and their LBs, Baltimore and their defense, and I would add the Giants are good at both DL and WR. Or so it seems anyway watching these teams over the past decade strike gold numerous times at said positions.
     
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