Ballard off PUP

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    Re: Ballard off PUP


    I'm with Wozzy, he makes the team. Jake Ballard is a true NFL TE in that he can doze out a hole as well as release off a block and move the chains with exceptional hands. The Giants were pissed when we signed him and for good reason.......he's good!

    Another reason he makes the team is I'm thinking our New England Patriots were a little upset with being muscled around on both sides of the ball against the Ravens. The last bunch of years they've passed to open the run......I see them sticking to the ground a lot more this year with Blount, Ballard, Fells, Ridley, Washington, Vareen, Bolden and Tebow in there once in a while to confuse them and let the run open the pass and take everyone by surprise.

    There's nothing better then lining up to run......making no disguise it's a run and then bust one for 6-7 play after play.  

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Ballard off PUP

    In response to wozzy's comment:

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    Possibly, but he's got competition as a blocker too.  They kept a lot of TEs last year because the TEs were key receivers. They really don't need a ton of blocking TEs. BB generally kept three TEs back in the Super Bowl years.  He's gone to four or five only because the TEs are so critical as receivers.

     

     

    The Patriot's started carrying more tightends when they unofficially phased out fullbacks after Heath Evans left in 2008.  Hernandez arrived in 2010, and while everyone loves calling him a tightend, he is no different from Keith Byers or Larry Centers in that he was a receiving fullback.  

    If you add up all the fullbacks and tightends of years past it will equal the amount of tightends we carried last year.  

    Only during 2008 through O'Brien's tenure did we get dangerously thin at blocking and not surprisingly our running and overall offensive toughness suffered, we are currently trying to regain that toughness lost, thus the signing of Ballard, Fells, Huey, Sudfeld and the rest.  If Ballard doesn't make it, it will be because BB thinks Sudfeld can do a comparable job for less money and money always plays into every football related decision.  

    We had this same and/or similar conversations last off season and season's prior where Truechamp and I insisted this change in philosophy was happening, that we would see more power formations, more I formation, more tightends and we would run substantially more... at the time we were told it was bonkers because Tom Brady is our best player and "why would you take the ball out of your best players hands..." but in the end we were right, 2nd overall in rushing attempts in the entire NFL was the proof.



    Wozzy, I believe the Pats carried three TEs until last year, when they carried four.  They had more rushing attempts last year but also a higher number of plays overall.  The run-pass balance is a better measure of emphasis than number of rushes, since the number of rushes naturally increases or decreases with the change in number of plays overall.  I don't have the exact figures in front of me now, but if you look at run pass balance I believe they ran around 45% of the time last year, which was similar to what they did in 2010.  In 2011 they ran about 40% of the time.  I-formations were not a big part of the offense last year and haven't been for a lomg time.  Hernandez was used as a hybrid, with elements of FB, TE, and WR all mixed in.  I think Hern's role was pretty different from the receiving FB role because it included a lot more WR type plays.  Teams have been running two TEs for decades, but what made the Pats two-TE offense of the past few seasons so different was the fact that both TEs were great receivers.  It's the quality of the two TEs as receivers that made the offense special and different from older style two TE offenses. This will not easily be duplicated by the Pats or anyother team unless the team has two TEs who are also great receivers. The Pats played a lot of two TE with Watson and Graham, but that wasn't like Gronk and Hern, not because Watson and Graham couldn't block, but because neither were the same quality receiver as Gronk or Hern.

     

     

     
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  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Ballard off PUP

    In response to russgriswold's comment:


    Not that it matters, but it was really Graham and Fauria who were the two here for 3 seasons working as a duo.  2002-2004.  Watson didn't play his rookie year in 2004.

     



    I was thinking more 2006, Rusty, when the Pats tried to go to a regular two TE set until Watson got injured.  The Graham-Fauria years were more one TE with a FB or a third receiver, except near the goal line, when Fauria played a lot. 

     

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Ballard off PUP

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    Wozzy, I believe the Pats carried three TEs until last year, when they carried four.  They had more rushing attempts last year but also a higher number of plays overall.

    Sorry Pro but this isn't correct.  League scoring is up, offensive plays league wide are up... the reason is penalties.  This isn't something exclusive to the Patriots.

    The number of teams with 100+ penalties more than doubled from 2001 to 2011, the zebras are throwing flags at a crazy rate.  League average is the only way to judge where a team sits in relation to the rest of the league in a fluid situation like this.

    2004 was the Patriot championship team with the most rushing attempts, 524 attempts which left them ranked 5th overall league wide, last year they were ranked 2nd with 523 attempts... what really increased were penalties, specifically pass interference penalties.  Teams increased the amount they passed because they had more opportunities but also because their chance to get a penalty in a critical situation increased.

    The league has changed, measuring teams against each other is the only measuring stick.  I formation was used last year, pro form, off set I, pro form sets were in abundance.  Pretending like we weren't rushing last year at a much higher rate because it doesn't fit your view of what has been wrong with this team is asking all of us who watched every game to ignore what we saw.

    By the way in 2004 the Patriots carried four tightends and two backs (6) that were counted as fullbacks, in 2003 they carried 3 fullbacks and two tightends (5), in 2001 they carried 2 fullbacks and 2 tightends (4)... we've always carried this many fullbacks/tightends.  We've been short at times since then, but we've always carried this many when we were successful.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Ballard off PUP

    In response to russgriswold's comment:

    In response to wozzy's comment:

     

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

     

     

    Wozzy, I believe the Pats carried three TEs until last year, when they carried four.  They had more rushing attempts last year but also a higher number of plays overall.

     

     

     

     

    Sorry Pro but this isn't correct.  League scoring is up, offensive plays league wide are up... the reason is penalties.  This isn't something exclusive to the Patriots.

    The number of teams with 100+ penalties more than doubled from 2001 to 2011, the zebras are throwing flags at a crazy rate.  League average is the only way to judge where a team sits in relation to the rest of the league in a fluid situation like this.

    2004 was the Patriot championship team with the most rushing attempts, 524 attempts which left them ranked 5th overall league wide, last year they were ranked 2nd with 523 attempts... what really increased were penalties, specifically pass interference penalties.  Teams increased the amount they passed because they had more opportunities but also because their chance to get a penalty in a critical situation increased.

    The league has changed, measuring teams against each other is the only measuring stick.  I formation was used last year, pro form, off set I, pro form sets were in abundance.  Pretending like we weren't rushing last year at a much higher rate because it doesn't fit your view of what has been wrong with this team is asking all of us who watched every game to ignore what we saw.

    By the way in 2004 the Patriots carried four tightends and two backs (6) that were counted as fullbacks, in 2003 they carried 3 fullbacks and two tightends (5), in 2001 they carried 2 fullbacks and 2 tightends (4)... we've always carried this many fullbacks/tightends.  We've been short at times since then, but we've always carried this many when we were successful.

     




    Which is why putting more responsibility on our D vs the supposed GOAT (Brady) in this day and age is outrageous.

     



    The only thing that has changed since those early championship teams is the league and the team around Brady, if we want to win again we'll have to rely heavily on Brady once again, just as we relied on him back then as a 21 year old.  

    The playoffs are the only time the refs seem to take a "let them play" attitude these days, we have to adjust and assume we won't get those penalty calls everyone gets in the regular season.  

    Brady hasn't changed at all.  We have to put a tougher offense around Brady to win, the defense has to get more pressure and sacks, the kick return game has to improve... blaming Brady is bunk.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from NoMorePensionLooting. Show NoMorePensionLooting's posts

    Re: Ballard off PUP

    Love to see Ballard work out for obvieous reasons. However make no mistake about his injury and his ability to come back. Micro fractures are far worse than a single break and may indicate some instability in the bone structure. The surgery is extensive and Ballard himself has said he still ain't right yet and so many nerves were cut during surgery he has permanent nerve damage and has a lack of feeling in that knee.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Philskiw1. Show Philskiw1's posts

    Re: Ballard off PUP

    In response to wozzy's comment:

    In response to russgriswold's comment:

     

    In response to wozzy's comment:

     

     

     

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

     

     

     

     

    Wozzy, I believe the Pats carried three TEs until last year, when they carried four.  They had more rushing attempts last year but also a higher number of plays overall.

     

     

     

     

     

     

    Sorry Pro but this isn't correct.  League scoring is up, offensive plays league wide are up... the reason is penalties.  This isn't something exclusive to the Patriots.

    The number of teams with 100+ penalties more than doubled from 2001 to 2011, the zebras are throwing flags at a crazy rate.  League average is the only way to judge where a team sits in relation to the rest of the league in a fluid situation like this.

    2004 was the Patriot championship team with the most rushing attempts, 524 attempts which left them ranked 5th overall league wide, last year they were ranked 2nd with 523 attempts... what really increased were penalties, specifically pass interference penalties.  Teams increased the amount they passed because they had more opportunities but also because their chance to get a penalty in a critical situation increased.

    The league has changed, measuring teams against each other is the only measuring stick.  I formation was used last year, pro form, off set I, pro form sets were in abundance.  Pretending like we weren't rushing last year at a much higher rate because it doesn't fit your view of what has been wrong with this team is asking all of us who watched every game to ignore what we saw.

    By the way in 2004 the Patriots carried four tightends and two backs (6) that were counted as fullbacks, in 2003 they carried 3 fullbacks and two tightends (5), in 2001 they carried 2 fullbacks and 2 tightends (4)... we've always carried this many fullbacks/tightends.  We've been short at times since then, but we've always carried this many when we were successful.

     

     




    Which is why putting more responsibility on our D vs the supposed GOAT (Brady) in this day and age is outrageous.

     

     

     



    The only thing that has changed since those early championship teams is the league and the team around Brady, if we want to win again we'll have to rely heavily on Brady once again, just as we relied on him back then as a 21 year old.  

     

    The playoffs are the only time the refs seem to take a "let them play" attitude these days, we have to adjust and assume we won't get those penalty calls everyone gets in the regular season.  

    Brady hasn't changed at all.  We have to put a tougher offense around Brady to win, the defense has to get more pressure and sacks, the kick return game has to improve... blaming Brady is bunk.



    Leon Washington will help ST's. that in turn will help Brady with field position. I agree they Brady will be relied on heavily if we want to win the SB. I believe barring injurys we will have a pass rush this year. Hopefully armestead will be ok and we can have a fresh tandem in the middle in January  to compliment our new found outside rush. 

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Ballard off PUP

    In response to NoMorePensionLooting's comment:

    Love to see Ballard work out for obvieous reasons. However make no mistake about his injury and his ability to come back. Micro fractures are far worse than a single break and may indicate some instability in the bone structure. The surgery is extensive and Ballard himself has said he still ain't right yet and so many nerves were cut during surgery he has permanent nerve damage and has a lack of feeling in that knee.

    Agree there is a chance his injury could derail his return, just another reason Sudfeld could make the roster, but if Ballard is healthy he makes the cut.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Ballard off PUP

    In response to Philskiw1's comment:
    [/QUOTE]

    Leon Washington will help ST's. that in turn will help Brady with field position. I agree they Brady will be relied on heavily if we want to win the SB. I believe barring injurys we will have a pass rush this year. Hopefully armestead will be ok and we can have a fresh tandem in the middle in January  to compliment our new found outside rush. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Good point about Washington, he probably isn't getting enough ink here for what he brings to the table both as a return guy and third down back.  I really do hope Armstead and Kelly are healthy, without those two, our outside rush will not matter.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Ballard off PUP

    You don't have to graffiti every post with the same thing over and over, everyone here knows how you feel about Brady.  It's complete and utter horsesht but everyone knows how you feel.

     

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Ballard off PUP

    In response to russgriswold's comment:

     

    Well don't say he hasn't changed then. He has. In fact, I've never seen a QB so successful so early in his career to look so different and unfortunately worse in so many ways, later in his career like this.

    The only one I can think of is Brett Favre.  Painful to even think that way, but it's hard to ignore these last few seasons. And, we all know how his career ended.  It sucks to admit it, but Brady is dangerously close to entering into that area of big ego and not holding himself accountable when he should be. Favre would throw 2 INTs in a game after 3 TDs and lose games for his team, pretty much all by himself. Then, he would bask in the image he created for himself in GB in the mid/late 1990s, years earlier, with a legion of homer fans up in Green Bay.

    Brady has had a much better career than Favre, but the ego thing can be damaging if the star player isn't coached.  Holmgren lost control, GB had trouble finding coaches to keep him in check, and only the selection of Rodgers really ended Favre's tenure, and essentially, his career.

    It's not "utter horsesht" at all. It's exactly what's happened. It happens.  Get over yourself thinking you have some kind of a patent on an opinion on the matter.

     

    The idea that football is a team sport escapes you entirely.  

    You create these dramatic, soap operatic storylines in your head and assume they're true.  Just because  you surmise these things are going on behind closed doors doesn't make it true.  

    You don't have an insiders view of the locker room or Giselle and Tom's house, so stop pretending like you do.  All Brady has been for the last decade is one of the best of all time, that you think he is a "problem" shows how farcical you really are.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Ballard off PUP

    Brady wasn't perfect from 2001 to 2007, there were quite a few games where he played poorly, a couple of those were playoff games where he needed other elements of the offense to make up for his play, the difference was the play calling was better, the team around him was more physical.  

    QB's are just a piece of the puzzle, they get too much credit when they win and all the blame when they lose, we don't have to worry about the QB because there is no upgrade to Tom Brady.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Ballard off PUP

    In response to russgriswold's comment:

    Brady was  MUCH better QB from 2001-2006 than he has been from 2007-2012.

    The team around him was better, bigger, stronger, more balanced, mentally tougher...

    2007 was one of the best offensive performances, if not the best of all time in NFL history.  The team tried for perfection, most teams never even attempt that, they shut guys down for stretches over a season, play for the playoffs, rest their runningbacks, DT's... in 2007 they went for it all and I can't say I've ever been more proud as a fan that they tried.  That 21 game winning streak will be near impossible to match or beat.

    You're wrong. Period.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Paul_K. Show Paul_K's posts

    Re: Ballard off PUP

    Ballard is stiff on the field because he hasn't done anything in 18 months, other than push small weights up and down in the weight room with his knee and maybe moan a lot.  There's always a chance that he'll never get better, but there's a much greater chance that he'll knock the rust off before the first game. 

    The guy is experienced and a known product, so if he's physically ok then he's second behind Gronk.

    Oh, and Brady/Belichick just set an NFL record for most offensive first downs in a season.  When you're at the NFL record right now, trend lines aren't down except in someone's vivid imagination.

     
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    Re: Ballard off PUP

    In response to wozzy's comment:

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

     

    Wozzy, I believe the Pats carried three TEs until last year, when they carried four.  They had more rushing attempts last year but also a higher number of plays overall.

     

     

    Sorry Pro but this isn't correct.  League scoring is up, offensive plays league wide are up... the reason is penalties.  This isn't something exclusive to the Patriots.

    The number of teams with 100+ penalties more than doubled from 2001 to 2011, the zebras are throwing flags at a crazy rate.  League average is the only way to judge where a team sits in relation to the rest of the league in a fluid situation like this.

    2004 was the Patriot championship team with the most rushing attempts, 524 attempts which left them ranked 5th overall league wide, last year they were ranked 2nd with 523 attempts... what really increased were penalties, specifically pass interference penalties.  Teams increased the amount they passed because they had more opportunities but also because their chance to get a penalty in a critical situation increased.

    The league has changed, measuring teams against each other is the only measuring stick.  I formation was used last year, pro form, off set I, pro form sets were in abundance.  Pretending like we weren't rushing last year at a much higher rate because it doesn't fit your view of what has been wrong with this team is asking all of us who watched every game to ignore what we saw.

    By the way in 2004 the Patriots carried four tightends and two backs (6) that were counted as fullbacks, in 2003 they carried 3 fullbacks and two tightends (5), in 2001 they carried 2 fullbacks and 2 tightends (4)... we've always carried this many fullbacks/tightends.  We've been short at times since then, but we've always carried this many when we were successful.



    Opening day roster in 2004 had Pass (FB), then Graham, Watson, and Fauria at TE.  In 2003, they opened with Centers and McCrary at FB and Baxter, Fauria, and Graham at TE. 

     

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Ballard off PUP

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    Opening day roster in 2004 had Pass (FB), then Graham, Watson, and Fauria at TE.  In 2003, they opened with Centers and McCrary at FB and Baxter, Fauria, and Graham at TE. 

     

     

    2003: Larry Centers, Fred McCrary, Pass and Dan Klecko was a two way player at fullback, Fauria, Graham at TE (6)

    2004: Pass, Rabih Abdullah at fullback, Graham, Watson, Fauria, Jed Weaver at TE (6)

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Ballard off PUP

    In response to wozzy's comment:

     

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    Opening day roster in 2004 had Pass (FB), then Graham, Watson, and Fauria at TE.  In 2003, they opened with Centers and McCrary at FB and Baxter, Fauria, and Graham at TE. 

     

     

    2003: Larry Centers, Fred McCrary, Pass and Dan Klecko was a two way player at fullback, Fauria, Graham at TE (6)

    2004: Pass, Rabih Abdullah at fullback, Graham, Watson, Fauria, Jed Weaver at TE (6)

     

     

    Those weren't the opening day rosters.  Pass, for instance, was cut in August 2003 and re-signed a few weeks into the season. Abdullah and Weaver also were signed later in the season in 2004 I believe. Regardless, the Pats usually carry 3 TEs.  If you want to add FBs, then they typically have 4 or 5 in the two positions.  

    Still, this doesn't really address the main point that the heavy use of TEs the past few years has had more to do with their role as receivers than blockers.  Back in 2003 and 2004, FBs and TEs combined were receiving roughly 90 passes (with TEs responsible for maybe 50 or 60 receptions).  Gronk and Hern in 2011 caught 168, I believe.  Last year, the TEs caught fewer (116 I think), but Hern and Gronk both were injured for stretches. The two TE offense we've seen in the past few years is unique because of the extensive role the TEs play as receivers.  Yes, both Gronk and Hern block (and block well too), but it's their ability as receivers that really makes this particular two TE offense different. Without Gronk and Hern, I'm not sure we'll see as much of the offense go through the TEs. And because of that, I don't think it's a lock the BB will carry four this year (though with Gronk out, he may carry three plus Gronk on PUP). 

     

     

     

     

     

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Ballard off PUP

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment: 

    Possibly, but he's got competition as a blocker too.  They kept a lot of TEs last year because the TEs were key receivers. They really don't need a ton of blocking TEs. BB generally kept three TEs back in the Super Bowl years.  He's gone to four or five only because the TEs are so critical as receivers

    [QUOTE] 

    The Patriot's started carrying more tightends when they unofficially phased out fullbacks after Heath Evans left in 2008.  Hernandez arrived in 2010, and while everyone loves calling him a tightend, he is no different from Keith Byers or Larry Centers in that he was a receiving fullback.  

    Which proves my point, the didn't keep a lot more tightends than usual, not when you consider they merged the fullback and tightend units after 2008.  So it won't be unusual when they do it again thiis year...  it has nothing to do with receiving options, there is a perfect number of bodies and 5-6 is that number.  You want guys who are good at receiving and blocking and can't use guys that can only do one of those things.  Our tightend and fullback units are chock full of talent. 

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Ballard off PUP

    In response to wozzy's comment:

     

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment: 

     

     

     

     

    Possibly, but he's got competition as a blocker too.  They kept a lot of TEs last year because the TEs were key receivers. They really don't need a ton of blocking TEs. BB generally kept three TEs back in the Super Bowl years.  He's gone to four or five only because the TEs are so critical as receivers

    [QUOTE] 

    The Patriot's started carrying more tightends when they unofficially phased out fullbacks after Heath Evans left in 2008.  Hernandez arrived in 2010, and while everyone loves calling him a tightend, he is no different from Keith Byers or Larry Centers in that he was a receiving fullback.  

     

     

     

     

    Which proves my point, the didn't keep a lot more tightends than usual, not when you consider they merged the fullback and tightend units after 2008.  So it won't be unusual when they do it again thiis year...  it has nothing to do with receiving options, there is a perfect number of bodies and 5-6 is that number.  You want guys who are good at receiving and blocking and can't use guys that can only do one of those things.  Our tightend and fullback units are chock full of talent. 

     



     

    Well, we'll see what they do, but I don't think it's clear that the two TE sets they used will be used as much this year with Hern gone.  The past two years they've used the two TE sets because Hern was a very good receiver, meaning they could get his size/blocking skill on the field without losing an effective receiver.  They might stay two TE, but then I think we're then looking at an offense like more traditional two TE sets (such as the one the Colts ran for years and the Pats ran a bit with Watson-Graham) where the second TE is mostly a blocker who really does replace the FB.  I don't see the two TE sets of the past two years as that kind of two TE set, though.  I think they really depended on a guy like Hern who could be that second blocker but who was also a third WR and therefore played a much more significant role as a receiver.  I don't see Ballard replacing a Hernandez.  He's much more that traditional kind of TE.  And when I look at him as a traditional TE, I see lots of competition for his roster slot.  In recent years BB has tended more to 4 or 5 TE/FBs, not 5 to 6. Maybe they decide to run a lot more this year and carry five or six, but I think that's yet to be seen.  I could see them increasing wideouts just as well.  I never thought the five they carried at the beginning of last year was enough, especially given that Slater is really a specialist.

     

     

     

     

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Ballard off PUP

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    Well, we'll see what they do, but I don't think it's clear that the two TE sets they used will be used as much this year with Hern gone.  The past two years they've used the two TE sets because Hern was a very good receiver, meaning they could get his size/blocking skill on the field without losing an effective receiver.  They might stay two TE, but then I think we're then looking at an offense like more traditional two TE sets (such as the one the Colts ran for years and the Pats ran a bit with Watson-Graham) where the second TE is mostly a blocker who really does replace the FB.  I don't see the two TE sets of the past two years as that kind of two TE set, though.  I think they really depended on a guy like Hern who could be that second blocker but who was also a third WR and therefore played a much more significant role as a receiver.  I don't see Ballard replacing a Hernandez.  He's much more that traditional kind of TE.  And when I look at him as a traditional TE, I see lots of competition for his roster slot.  In recent years BB has tended more to 4 or 5 TE/FBs, not 5 to 6. Maybe they decide to run a lot more this year and carry five or six, but I think that's yet to be seen.  I could see them increasing wideouts just as well.  I never thought the five they carried at the beginning of last year was enough, especially given that Slater is really a specialist.

     

    Agree completely that Hern was a match up nightmare for opponents but the beef we added to our WR corps is something to be excited about.  I know everybody here is taking a wait and see attitude because of the overhaul of the WR group but this year could really be another offensive explosion, especially considering we've already established a strong run game last year.  

    We ran a lot of two tightend sets in the old days down by the goalline, with the collection of tall tightends we have (Gronk, Ballard, Sudfeld) you will see more of that, but I agree there won't be a lot of these TE's flexing out the way Hern did.  

    What really is filling me with confidence about this year's offense is that Josh McDaniels is manning the helm, he seems to maximize young player's potential and seems to find a way to utilize their abilities to best help this offensive unit.  If there's anything to be had from these young guys or new guys then he'll squeeze it out of them.

     
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