BB Comes In At 7th All-Time

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    Re: BB Comes In At 7th All-Time

    In response to zbellino's comment:

    In response to pcmIV's comment:

     

    In response to TripleOG's comment:

     

     

    I would have to agree somewhat with Z with c.w.o.t.b. in terms of his legacy falling a bit in the last 6 years or so. He did win 3 Lombardi's and noone can take that away. He has gone to more SB's but those appearances IMO have hurt him more than anything. If he never went to one after 2004. He would end his Pats career with  a 3-0 record in SB's. Going to 2 more and losing to a supposed inferior coach in Coughlin TWICE kind of adds fuel to the Spygate Fire, wether warranted or not. My 2 cents is this. BB has always been lauded as a defensive genius but with out the necessary Star Power he has proven to be anything but that. His last 6 years as HC, we have witnessed a Superb Offense with a very flawed Defense from a guy rooted in Defense. So does HE get credit for recent success which is mainly offense and Brady or does McDaniels and also Obie get some credit for those record breaking years??  If you consider the guys they had in N.Y. - L.T. , Banks, Peppers,etc its easy to assume it was more of the playmakers than BB. We saw what BB did when he had the roster leftover from Parcells days. He went to 3 and won 3. After those guys left, we had to give BB a chance to get HIS guys. He has had plenty of time now and the defense is still Meh so what does that say to me? He is a very good coach. Great game manager,etc, but he is still human and judging by recent years, he is just average. The people who keep pointing to us being in the hunt every year fail to see that is mainly TFB! If BB had an average QB, he would just be an average coach IMO. He went 5-11 with Bledsoe when he was still in his prime...seeing as he played 3 more years in Buffalo and another 2 in Dallas. Just my opinion but he better win another soon.

     

     

    "Take care of my B*tch, I may need her back in a couple years"

    Brady to Manning after Wes signed with Denver

     

     



    You realize of course that every single coach above him on the list never had to play with a salary cap and therefore got to retain all of their stars as long as they wanted.  It's not like these guys won with teams full of JAGs.  And they certainly didn't win with JAGs at the QB position.  These arguments to discredit BB are ridiculously lame imo.

     

     

    I can't believe a Patriots fan actually called BB average as a coach over the last 6 years.  Wow just wow.



    Not to mention they all had great QBs. 

     

    Walsh - Montana

    Lombardi - Starr

    Noll - Bradshaw

    Brown - Graham

    Halas - Luckman

    Shula - Marino/Greise

    And even the guys behind him: 

    Landry -Staubach

    Shannahan - Elway

    Dungy - Manning

    Johnson - Aikman

    Levy - Kelly

    Parcells - Simms 

    All great coaches who string together epic runs and SB titles have a QB. I think only Gibbs did it otherwise since the 1980s. 

    Furthermore, my last post says it all ... BB built and designed NE's offense. He is the one tinkering it year to year, not Brady. He drafted the talent that surrounds Brady, not Brady. 

    Yes Brady is an all time great, maybe the GOAT, surely top three. 

    But he is still just a part of BB's team. The most important part for sure, but just a part. 

    BB is the coach. Separate the two. One doesn't detract from the other. 




    I dont want to take anything away from BB, all Im is saying is when he won, he had the tools necessary to win, without them , he hasnt won anything. I only got to watch Shula and Walsh coach and a limited time so who am I to say BB is the greatest!??!? I would be a Homer. Has he been dam good and better than most other coaches in his era, Sure, but I cant speak for the other eras so I assume they are ahead for a reason, thats all.

     
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  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from zeitgeist49. Show zeitgeist49's posts

    Re: BB Comes In At 7th All-Time

    In response to TripleOG's comment:

    I would have to agree somewhat with Z with c.w.o.t.b. in terms of his legacy falling a bit in the last 6 years or so. He did win 3 Lombardi's and noone can take that away. He has gone to more SB's but those appearances IMO have hurt him more than anything. If he never went to one after 2004. He would end his Pats career with  a 3-0 record in SB's. Going to 2 more and losing to a supposed inferior coach in Coughlin TWICE kind of adds fuel to the Spygate Fire, wether warranted or not. My 2 cents is this. BB has always been lauded as a defensive genius but with out the necessary Star Power he has proven to be anything but that. His last 6 years as HC, we have witnessed a Superb Offense with a very flawed Defense from a guy rooted in Defense. So does HE get credit for recent success which is mainly offense and Brady or does McDaniels and also Obie get some credit for those record breaking years??  If you consider the guys they had in N.Y. - L.T. , Banks, Peppers,etc its easy to assume it was more of the playmakers than BB. We saw what BB did when he had the roster leftover from Parcells days. He went to 3 and won 3. After those guys left, we had to give BB a chance to get HIS guys. He has had plenty of time now and the defense is still Meh so what does that say to me? He is a very good coach. Great game manager,etc, but he is still human and judging by recent years, he is just average. The people who keep pointing to us being in the hunt every year fail to see that is mainly TFB! If BB had an average QB, he would just be an average coach IMO. He went 5-11 with Bledsoe when he was still in his prime...seeing as he played 3 more years in Buffalo and another 2 in Dallas. Just my opinion but he better win another soon.

     

     

    "Take care of my B*tch, I may need her back in a couple years"

    Brady to Manning after Wes signed with Denver



    Best post by far on this thread. Homerism, as usual, is rampant here.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from TripleOG. Show TripleOG's posts

    Re: BB Comes In At 7th All-Time

    In response to zeitgeist49's comment:

    In response to TripleOG's comment:

     

    I would have to agree somewhat with Z with c.w.o.t.b. in terms of his legacy falling a bit in the last 6 years or so. He did win 3 Lombardi's and noone can take that away. He has gone to more SB's but those appearances IMO have hurt him more than anything. If he never went to one after 2004. He would end his Pats career with  a 3-0 record in SB's. Going to 2 more and losing to a supposed inferior coach in Coughlin TWICE kind of adds fuel to the Spygate Fire, wether warranted or not. My 2 cents is this. BB has always been lauded as a defensive genius but with out the necessary Star Power he has proven to be anything but that. His last 6 years as HC, we have witnessed a Superb Offense with a very flawed Defense from a guy rooted in Defense. So does HE get credit for recent success which is mainly offense and Brady or does McDaniels and also Obie get some credit for those record breaking years??  If you consider the guys they had in N.Y. - L.T. , Banks, Peppers,etc its easy to assume it was more of the playmakers than BB. We saw what BB did when he had the roster leftover from Parcells days. He went to 3 and won 3. After those guys left, we had to give BB a chance to get HIS guys. He has had plenty of time now and the defense is still Meh so what does that say to me? He is a very good coach. Great game manager,etc, but he is still human and judging by recent years, he is just average. The people who keep pointing to us being in the hunt every year fail to see that is mainly TFB! If BB had an average QB, he would just be an average coach IMO. He went 5-11 with Bledsoe when he was still in his prime...seeing as he played 3 more years in Buffalo and another 2 in Dallas. Just my opinion but he better win another soon.

     

     

    "Take care of my B*tch, I may need her back in a couple years"

    Brady to Manning after Wes signed with Denver

     



    Best post by far on this thread. Homerism, as usual, is rampant here.

     



    Thanks for not attacking me. I dont see whats wrong with my post. If B-more and Pittsburgh can both win SB's with very average QB's - Dilfer(2000) and Rohtlisburger(2006, worst QBR rating eva) than BB should be able to win with an average Defense but he hasnt. If we are to give sooo much credit to him, how come Billick and Cowher are not considered great or on anyones list?? I personally think BB is a better overall coach than those 2, but you cant argue that lately BB has a left a lot to be desired with his postseason brain farts. Best of ALL TimE!?!?!?  Ok, you shouldnt lose twice to a guy who was supposed to be FIRED. You shouldnt be outcoached by a 2nd year coach with a Sh*tty QB whom u beat 45-3 just weeks earlier. YOu shouldnt be BLOWN OUT in a HOME playoff game by a young QB who Threw 9 Passes!  NOT EVEN DOUBLE DIGITS!  Thats pathetic. You shouldnt lose at home after having a lead in a playoff game. If any other respected coach was doing this, we would call him out but not BB!??!  Ok, the kool-aid has been missing sugar for a while now and isnt that tasty but some cant even see it. I do like him and I want no other cuz I know his potential but he needs some assistant coaches, that should be evident and clear by now.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from pcmIV. Show pcmIV's posts

    Re: BB Comes In At 7th All-Time

    Being the best means you win more than most not that you win every time.  BB has 3 SB wins and his winning % as a HC (even including Cleveland) is one of the best all time.  Plus he is the only coach in the top 10 that coached in the salary cap era.  You don't need to be a homer to think that is a pretty damn strong resume.  And besides you said he has been average for a pretty long period of time for crying out loud.  That is even less objective than the people that think he is a no doubt #1.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from dreighver. Show dreighver's posts

    Re: BB Comes In At 7th All-Time

    In response to 42AND46's comment:

    In response to dreighver's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    Rather silly, really. 

    I'm sure you could make an argument that Belichick isn't a top-3 coach of all time...

    ...it just wouldn't be a very rational one.

    He's a top-3 coach without much debate, and how he isn't in the top-5 is beyond me.

    _________________

    Let's go Pats!

     




     

    no it's debatable and very much so-ur post is homerism at it's worst

    [/QUOTE]

    Did you expect a Patriots FAN to be entirely objective when discussing the Patriots? 

    If you did, change your expectations. If you didn't, I don't see why you're surprised or bothered. This is a Pats forum, not an NFL discussion forum. I would recommend you leave here, and find a medium which is more receptive to your agenda.

     
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  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from gr82bme. Show gr82bme's posts

    Re: BB Comes In At 7th All-Time

    I believe BB is better than 7th, but I think the coaches above him are getting points for changing the way the game is played (Brown, etc.) and reinventing it.  You really can't win arguments like this - but a couple of thoughts:


    -  BB isn't done coaching - he'll increase his win totals and could win 50 more games in 5 or so years.  He could also win more playoff games (I believe he's two behind the leader), Championship Games, and SBs.

    -  I'm not sure how much "credit" they're giving head coaches for what they did as coordinators or assistant coaches.  As everyone knows BB was one of the best defensive coordinators of his era also - helping the Jints win two SBs.  So he's actually won five (and hopefully several more) as a "coach."

    -  Spygate is Spygate - regardless of how things play out - in this "blame the other guy" society, that issue is always going to be seen outside of NE as a reason we've won so often.  Stats to the contrary don't mean a lick to teams/fans whose teams haven't been able to beat the Pats.

    Look, I'm not going to argue BB over Paul Brown, Lombardi, etal - and there are some darn good head coaches just starting out.  So after BB hangs them up, I think we can look back on the totality of his accomplishments to better "place" him in a "top" whatever.  I do know this - I'm glad he's on the Patriots sideline running things.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: BB Comes In At 7th All-Time

    In response to zeitgeist49's comment:

    In response to TripleOG's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    I would have to agree somewhat with Z with c.w.o.t.b. in terms of his legacy falling a bit in the last 6 years or so. He did win 3 Lombardi's and noone can take that away. He has gone to more SB's but those appearances IMO have hurt him more than anything. If he never went to one after 2004. He would end his Pats career with  a 3-0 record in SB's. Going to 2 more and losing to a supposed inferior coach in Coughlin TWICE kind of adds fuel to the Spygate Fire, wether warranted or not. My 2 cents is this. BB has always been lauded as a defensive genius but with out the necessary Star Power he has proven to be anything but that. His last 6 years as HC, we have witnessed a Superb Offense with a very flawed Defense from a guy rooted in Defense. So does HE get credit for recent success which is mainly offense and Brady or does McDaniels and also Obie get some credit for those record breaking years??  If you consider the guys they had in N.Y. - L.T. , Banks, Peppers,etc its easy to assume it was more of the playmakers than BB. We saw what BB did when he had the roster leftover from Parcells days. He went to 3 and won 3. After those guys left, we had to give BB a chance to get HIS guys. He has had plenty of time now and the defense is still Meh so what does that say to me? He is a very good coach. Great game manager,etc, but he is still human and judging by recent years, he is just average. The people who keep pointing to us being in the hunt every year fail to see that is mainly TFB! If BB had an average QB, he would just be an average coach IMO. He went 5-11 with Bledsoe when he was still in his prime...seeing as he played 3 more years in Buffalo and another 2 in Dallas. Just my opinion but he better win another soon.

     

     

    "Take care of my B*tch, I may need her back in a couple years"

    Brady to Manning after Wes signed with Denver

     



    Best post by far on this thread. Homerism, as usual, is rampant here.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    If stating a case that BB is top three is homerism then I don't know what to say.

    There are non-pats fans... like Bill Walsh for instance, who consider him the best ever. 

     
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  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: BB Comes In At 7th All-Time

    In response to jfaust1954's comment:

    In response to zbellino's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to zeitgeist49's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    In response to TripleOG's comment:

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

     

    I would have to agree somewhat with Z with c.w.o.t.b. in terms of his legacy falling a bit in the last 6 years or so. He did win 3 Lombardi's and noone can take that away. He has gone to more SB's but those appearances IMO have hurt him more than anything. If he never went to one after 2004. He would end his Pats career with  a 3-0 record in SB's. Going to 2 more and losing to a supposed inferior coach in Coughlin TWICE kind of adds fuel to the Spygate Fire, wether warranted or not. My 2 cents is this. BB has always been lauded as a defensive genius but with out the necessary Star Power he has proven to be anything but that. His last 6 years as HC, we have witnessed a Superb Offense with a very flawed Defense from a guy rooted in Defense. So does HE get credit for recent success which is mainly offense and Brady or does McDaniels and also Obie get some credit for those record breaking years??  If you consider the guys they had in N.Y. - L.T. , Banks, Peppers,etc its easy to assume it was more of the playmakers than BB. We saw what BB did when he had the roster leftover from Parcells days. He went to 3 and won 3. After those guys left, we had to give BB a chance to get HIS guys. He has had plenty of time now and the defense is still Meh so what does that say to me? He is a very good coach. Great game manager,etc, but he is still human and judging by recent years, he is just average. The people who keep pointing to us being in the hunt every year fail to see that is mainly TFB! If BB had an average QB, he would just be an average coach IMO. He went 5-11 with Bledsoe when he was still in his prime...seeing as he played 3 more years in Buffalo and another 2 in Dallas. Just my opinion but he better win another soon.

     

     

    "Take care of my B*tch, I may need her back in a couple years"

    Brady to Manning after Wes signed with Denver

     

     

     



    Best post by far on this thread. Homerism, as usual, is rampant here.

     

     

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    If stating a case that BB is top three is homerism then I don't know what to say.

     

     

    There are non-pats fans... like Bill Walsh for instance, who consider him the best ever. 

     

    [/QUOTE]

     

    7Th?!   That's a joke, and yes, it's proof that he's being pounded by the  (I can't believe I'm going to write this with my fingers) "lamestream media" (EEEEWWWEEEEEE!!!)...But why would loyal Pats fans expect anything different? The Pats are one of those  teams, like the Cowboys, that everyone hates and they probably always will...



    [/QUOTE]

    Agreed ... but -3 points for writing "lamestream media" haha.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from 42AND46. Show 42AND46's posts

    Re: BB Comes In At 7th All-Time

    In response to dreighver's comment:

    In response to 42AND46's comment:

     

    In response to dreighver's comment:

     

     

    Rather silly, really. 

    I'm sure you could make an argument that Belichick isn't a top-3 coach of all time...

    ...it just wouldn't be a very rational one.

    He's a top-3 coach without much debate, and how he isn't in the top-5 is beyond me.

    _________________

    Let's go Pats!

     

     




     

     

    no it's debatable and very much so-ur post is homerism at it's worst



    Did you expect a Patriots FAN to be entirely objective when discussing the Patriots? 

     

    If you did, change your expectations. If you didn't, I don't see why you're surprised or bothered. This is a Pats forum, not an NFL discussion forum. I would recommend you leave here, and find a medium which is more receptive to your agenda.




    i have no agenda

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from 42AND46. Show 42AND46's posts

    Re: BB Comes In At 7th All-Time

    In response to gr82bme's comment:

    I believe BB is better than 7th, but I think the coaches above him are getting points for changing the way the game is played (Brown, etc.) and reinventing it.  You really can't win arguments like this - but a couple of thoughts:


    -  BB isn't done coaching - he'll increase his win totals and could win 50 more games in 5 or so years.  He could also win more playoff games (I believe he's two behind the leader), Championship Games, and SBs.

    -  I'm not sure how much "credit" they're giving head coaches for what they did as coordinators or assistant coaches.  As everyone knows BB was one of the best defensive coordinators of his era also - helping the Jints win two SBs.  So he's actually won five (and hopefully several more) as a "coach."

    -  Spygate is Spygate - regardless of how things play out - in this "blame the other guy" society, that issue is always going to be seen outside of NE as a reason we've won so often.  Stats to the contrary don't mean a lick to teams/fans whose teams haven't been able to beat the Pats.

    Look, I'm not going to argue BB over Paul Brown, Lombardi, etal - and there are some darn good head coaches just starting out.  So after BB hangs them up, I think we can look back on the totality of his accomplishments to better "place" him in a "top" whatever.  I do know this - I'm glad he's on the Patriots sideline running things.




    well said basically...

     
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  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: BB Comes In At 7th All-Time

    I really think it's futile to try to rank guys, but Belichick is clearly among the top few ever.  One thing that probably will get me flamed by some Pats fans is saying that to me one of the proofs of Belichick's greatness as a coach is that he's produced such a stellar record with teams that haven't always been that talented.  I know some think the 2011 Super Bowl counts against him, but to me it was amazing that Belichick got that team that far given its problems on defense and its lack of diversity on offense.  The huge point totals the 2010 and 2011 teams put up are amazing when you look at the limited weapons the team had. Yes, Gronk, Hern, and Welker are all good, but beyond that the talent in the running/receiving positions really dropped off, and even Hern and Welker are players that might not be so effective without Belichick's coaching. 

    When I think of Belichick's particular genius I think of a guy who is better than just about anyone at getting the best from his players.  Some coaches may have been more innovative with schemes, but no one seems as good as Belichick at adjusting schemes to players and at picking players to complement the other players already on the team.  With every Belichick team the whole always seems much greater than the sum of the parts, and the reason for that in my opinion is Belichick's very flexible approach to adopting strategy and tactics to the skills of the players he has and then supplementing his current players with new players who make the emerging strategic and tactical approach even more effective. Unlike many coaches who have rigid approaches and try to get players to fit those approaches, Belichick seems to have an approach that morphs continuously based on the players he has and is always designed not around any preconceived idea of what's best but rather on careful evaluation of what strategies and tactics will maximize the effectiveness of the group of players he actually has. 

     
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