BB Continues To Be A Trailblazer

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Paul_K. Show Paul_K's posts

    Re: BB Continues To Be A Trailblazer

    At the turn of the century the NFL had achieved something called "parity".  We were assured that no team would stay on the winning side of .500 for very long.  In the 21st century BB has gone 146-46, a full 100 wins over .500, so now we have NFL parroting.  If you want to win in the NFL today you have no other option, you must hire away BB's coaches, you must pay double for any Patriots free agent, you must emulate the Patriots' drafting strategy, you must line up exactly as the Patriots do and you must change your team's colors to... no, not quite that far yet. 

    BB popularized the heavyset 3-4 with extremely tall defensive ends and a375 pound nose tackle.  He dabbled all the way to 5-2 run support and 1-6 coverage of the Hail Mary play, where Vince Wilfork rushes the passer and everyone else drops way back.  Then he created the elephant position where Chandler Jones puts his hand on the ground about 50% of the time. He emphasized interceptions.  He pretty much ignored sacks and even yardage if that particular chunk of yardage didn't lead to many points.  He became a master of the prevent defense and the prevent offense. 

    He understood the importance of a tall dink-and-dunk quarterback with a quick release. He filled the offensive line with smaller, mobile tackles and mauling tight ends.  He adapted a route system with 100 starting points but only a few ending points, where one receiver or another would always be at one particular spot on time, so that the quarterback just had to look once and throw to whomever. 

    He understood the importance of 3-cone drill times.  He understood the importance of arm length.  He invented a crazy but winning play where the center hikes the ball over the punter's head and out of the endzone.  He fell in love with the big nickel.  He often recruited the meanest guys in the league.  He loved malcontents if it seemed to be the other team's coaching staff that was in the wrong.  He drafted a player in the middle of chemotherapy (Cannon). 

    He drafted lots of famous whosthat players.  Logan Mankins turned out great.  Both Gronk and Hernandez slid a long way down in retrospect.  Matt Cassell was a seventh rounder, simply because he had never played a college game as a quarterback in his life.  Steve Neal didn't understand how to put on football padding when he arrived in camp, but he was a gold medal Olympic wrestler so he did just fine. 

    This year, columnists are starting to get sick of BB trading out a #2 pick this year for a #1 next year.  A BB disciple, Mike Lombardi in Cleveland, pulled one of those.  At least BB traded away his #1 for multiple lower picks, where the real value sits. 

    Now the rest of the NFL world wants to know what the heck BB sees in Duron.  The kid hits like a truck apparently, and longer arms won't help much if that's the main job requirement.  I want to see if Collins can play a 250 pound big nickel some time.  Did BB get another Randy Moss out of Marshall? 

     
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  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from pcmIV. Show pcmIV's posts

    Re: BB Continues To Be A Trailblazer

    In response to 42AND46's comment:

    3. and yes that division sure helps too thru no fault of the Pats-just like in the 70's the Cowboys and Steelers had fairly consistently mediocre division foes and the 49ers in the 80's...



    I see you are still peddling this line despite the fact that it was refuted ad nauseum by me in the other thread.  Amusingly your only counter was an article from AOL of all places (LOL) that purported to show that the NFC East was some juggernaut division despite the fact that all of the metrics (SB wins, playoff win %) were almost completely driven by the Giants and that the sample was perfectly cherry picked to maximize their impact (starting when they won their first SB in 2007 and going through 2011 when they won the 2nd one).  Of course the irony is that you constantly levy cricticisms that all stats about the AFC East are entirely driven by the Patriots performance so LMAO @ U troll.  Believe it or not troll most fans of the NFL don't think the Cowboys, Eagles or Redskins have been very good very often the past few years.  Just because Coughlin can't coach a team that plays hard in all 16 games doesn't mean your division is some murderer's row.

    And just to be clear so you don't straw man the crap out of me like you are prone to do.  I am not saying that the Jets, Fins and Bills are great teams.  Rather that most years most of the divisions are pretty equal with the occasional outlier in both directions.  You drastically overstate the impact of the AFC East on the Patriots success.

     
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  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Re: BB Continues To Be A Trailblazer

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

     

    Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out trading down, or better yet trading into the future, might be a good idea in a weak draft.

     

    [QUOTE]

    You're right, it's not rocket science, but weak/strong is unimportant. If the guy you can get at 60 is equal to the guy you can get with your pick at 50, according to your draft board, you trade down and get more picks. Conversely if you're sitting at 50 and the guy you want will be gone before you pick, you move up.

     

    It has more to do with specific players than the overall draft pool.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from JohnHannahrulz. Show JohnHannahrulz's posts

    Re: BB Continues To Be A Trailblazer

    Jints ask yourself this question would rather have Reese as GM/ Director of Player Personel or Parcells since 2004 with the Giants organization? Could be the Maras and Tischs of the world are smarter than their nostalgic fans.

     
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  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: BB Continues To Be A Trailblazer

    In response to JohnHannahrulz's comment:

    Might add how now every team is looking at their 2TE sets and using Gronk and Hernandez as the prototype and BB got both in the same draft. (See SF, Cowboys all drafted TEs despite the prescence of good TEs on their roster Davis and Witten). Teams are getting the idea that TEs pose huge match-up problems if they bring certain skill sets. And the PAts still have Ballard who could be a great in-line blocker. Just an observation, but the Cowboys have traded up in the past with limited success (Claiborne, Bryant). They are learning that you can still fill out your roster with decent players drafted later than the 1st. I really think Belichick looks at 4 or 5 players he wants to draft in the 1st round and if those players aren't there he attempts to trade down and get some value picks.


    unless, of course, you remember how the colts did it with Dallas Clark and Marcus Pollard or Marcus Pollard and Ken Dilger before that. 

     
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  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: BB Continues To Be A Trailblazer

    ok so what we're saying is that Belichick really isn't the two tight end trendsetter. 

    That's all.

     
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  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from 42AND46. Show 42AND46's posts

    Re: BB Continues To Be A Trailblazer

    In response to Paul_K's comment:

    At the turn of the century the NFL had achieved something called "parity".  We were assured that no team would stay on the winning side of .500 for very long.  In the 21st century BB has gone 146-46, a full 100 wins over .500, so now we have NFL parroting.  If you want to win in the NFL today you have no other option, you must hire away BB's coaches, you must pay double for any Patriots free agent, you must emulate the Patriots' drafting strategy, you must line up exactly as the Patriots do and you must change your team's colors to... no, not quite that far yet. 

    BB popularized the heavyset 3-4 with extremely tall defensive ends and a375 pound nose tackle.  He dabbled all the way to 5-2 run support and 1-6 coverage of the Hail Mary play, where Vince Wilfork rushes the passer and everyone else drops way back.  Then he created the elephant position where Chandler Jones puts his hand on the ground about 50% of the time. He emphasized interceptions.  He pretty much ignored sacks and even yardage if that particular chunk of yardage didn't lead to many points.  He became a master of the prevent defense and the prevent offense. 

    He understood the importance of a tall dink-and-dunk quarterback with a quick release. He filled the offensive line with smaller, mobile tackles and mauling tight ends.  He adapted a route system with 100 starting points but only a few ending points, where one receiver or another would always be at one particular spot on time, so that the quarterback just had to look once and throw to whomever. 

    He understood the importance of 3-cone drill times.  He understood the importance of arm length.  He invented a crazy but winning play where the center hikes the ball over the punter's head and out of the endzone.  He fell in love with the big nickel.  He often recruited the meanest guys in the league.  He loved malcontents if it seemed to be the other team's coaching staff that was in the wrong.  He drafted a player in the middle of chemotherapy (Cannon). 

    He drafted lots of famous whosthat players.  Logan Mankins turned out great.  Both Gronk and Hernandez slid a long way down in retrospect.  Matt Cassell was a seventh rounder, simply because he had never played a college game as a quarterback in his life.  Steve Neal didn't understand how to put on football padding when he arrived in camp, but he was a gold medal Olympic wrestler so he did just fine. 

    This year, columnists are starting to get sick of BB trading out a #2 pick this year for a #1 next year.  A BB disciple, Mike Lombardi in Cleveland, pulled one of those.  At least BB traded away his #1 for multiple lower picks, where the real value sits. 

    Now the rest of the NFL world wants to know what the heck BB sees in Duron.  The kid hits like a truck apparently, and longer arms won't help much if that's the main job requirement.  I want to see if Collins can play a 250 pound big nickel some time.  Did BB get another Randy Moss out of Marshall? 




    ignoring the bulk of this I will concentrate on only this and stick to my team:

     If you want to win in the NFL today you have no other option, you must hire away BB's coaches, you must pay double for any Patriots free agent, you must emulate the Patriots' drafting strategy, you must line up exactly as the Patriots do

     

    please show me all the coaches the Giants have hired away from the Pats, show me the Pats free agents the Giants have paid double for and please show me how the Giants "line-up" like the Pats on either side of the ball

    I won't bother with the drafting part of the above because I addressed it umpteen times before and yet again on this thread

     

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from 42AND46. Show 42AND46's posts

    Re: BB Continues To Be A Trailblazer

    In response to pcmIV's comment:

    In response to 42AND46's comment:

     

    3. and yes that division sure helps too thru no fault of the Pats-just like in the 70's the Cowboys and Steelers had fairly consistently mediocre division foes and the 49ers in the 80's...

     

     



    I see you are still peddling this line despite the fact that it was refuted ad nauseum by me in the other thread.  Amusingly your only counter was an article from AOL of all places (LOL) that purported to show that the NFC East was some juggernaut division despite the fact that all of the metrics (SB wins, playoff win %) were almost completely driven by the Giants and that the sample was perfectly cherry picked to maximize their impact (starting when they won their first SB in 2007 and going through 2011 when they won the 2nd one).  Of course the irony is that you constantly levy cricticisms that all stats about the AFC East are entirely driven by the Patriots performance so LMAO @ U troll.  Believe it or not troll most fans of the NFL don't think the Cowboys, Eagles or Redskins have been very good very often the past few years.  Just because Coughlin can't coach a team that plays hard in all 16 games doesn't mean your division is some murderer's row.

    And just to be clear so you don't straw man the crap out of me like you are prone to do.  I am not saying that the Jets, Fins and Bills are great teams.  Rather that most years most of the divisions are pretty equal with the occasional outlier in both directions.  You drastically overstate the impact of the AFC East on the Patriots success.




    you know pcm I know you think you are a rationalist and have the corner marketed on "logic" and "reason" (thats why you often enter a thread with some one line bit of irony and sarcasm-sort of like the too cool for the room guy standing in the corner thinking "deep" thoughts) but I am not quite sure how you refuted the idea that the AFC East is one good team and three mediocre to poor ones for over a decade or that it is nearly as competitive or filled with talent as the nfc east...as I have repeatedly said anyone can use any statistics to prove or disprove anything they want to (funny how u have a problem with the "metrics" of an article that states something you don't agree with just like you seem to find his stats selective but not yours) but at the end of the day you still don't seem to get that the bills the jets and the fins have been bad to average with a year or two exception now and again and that rarely if ever are two of them competitive in the same season-if the pats face a challenge it is from one at a time...the qbs have been uniformly poor to mediocre (please dont tell me that division has had any qb equal to romo mcnab or vick or even now rg3 in the past decade that the pats have to defend twice a year-i will give you an aging didnt want to be there brett favre in 08 for the jets) and you cannot tell me the pats in a divsion facing the steelers and ravens twice every year or the eagles cowboys and giants or skins every year are running up division title after title and penciling in 4-6 division wins every year-hell they haven't beaten the jints in forever as it is

    common sense and possibly a football eye test here pcm to go with your smarter than the room facts might just be the ticket but if u want to keep throwing stats and numbers and formulas and our own "metrics" around-which in have avoided b4 that aol article then we can continue to go t*t for tat...but i think deep down you know exactly what i am saying-as does just about everyone else in the football world outside of pats fans

    straw man? not quite  :  )

     

     
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  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from 42AND46. Show 42AND46's posts

    Re: BB Continues To Be A Trailblazer

    In response to JohnHannahrulz's comment:

    Jints ask yourself this question would rather have Reese as GM/ Director of Player Personel or Parcells since 2004 with the Giants organization? Could be the Maras and Tischs of the world are smarter than their nostalgic fans.




    Hannah with respect what the bloody hell are you talking about?

    Bill Parcells hasn't worked for the Giants since 1990...in the 7 years from 83-90 he resurrected the franchise and won two sb's-then he went on to do what I have detailed above with NE Jets and Cowboys-what does this have to do with Parcells since 2004? his greatness and his legacy/legend was built long before then...this is like asking a Yankee fan who would you want from 1996 to 2008 Joe Torre or Casey Stengel

    what does Jerry Reese being the right man in the present day-or even Ernie Accorsi before him-have to do with Parcells accomplishments, with the fact that he has one of the most sucessful coaching trees in NFL history or that-the main bone of contention for some pats fans-Bellichick learned from him and Young and applied it and continues to-with his own ideas and stamp? note I did say BB "erxpanded" on what he learned with the Giants

    Not sure if that answers you because I don't quite get ur point here

    for what it's worth yes very satisfied with JR- as satisfied as Pats fans are with Bellichick

    the continued kick in the head here is how often I acknowledge how good a coach and GM BB is but some people (RUSTY!!) can't stand anything but calling him the greatest of the greatest who was given direct football knowledge from Moses himself in 5000 BC

     
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  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from patsbandwagonsince76. Show patsbandwagonsince76's posts

    Re: BB Continues To Be A Trailblazer

    In response to 42AND46's comment:

     

     

    1. the NY Giants have been drafting the same way since Young through Young/Parcells to Ernie Accorsi and now Jerry Reese and it's been the same through your sacred cap era as it was before-and it's to this day the same way Bill Bellichick drafts players and builds a roster...he is applying a "formula" that existed before he was a GM and one the Giants were oh so coincidentally using when he coached here

     

     

     

    not coincidentally

    It is interesting the Giants had 0 playoff appearances between 1964-1980.

    Then in 1980-1990 they had 13 playoff games and 2 SB's!!

    Guess who arrived in 1979 and left in 1990...not Bill Parcells, he came in 1981 after the team had turned around...it was Bill Belichick who ushered in the new era for the Giants.

    The last few years of BBs tenure Tom Coughlin arrived and smartly soaked up as much as he could of Belichicks ways.

    So you seriously think anyone would believe the Giants drafted the same way in the two periods:

    1964-1980 -- 0 playoff games

    1980-1990 -- 13 playoff games, 2 SB's ??

    What were the Giants most known for in this time ...there superior LB's...hmm who was the linebacker coach??

    They started drafting better because of the arrival of BB!! You know BB , the linebacker coach at the time Lawrence Taylor was drafted.

    BB made the Giants and now you of all people are denying the league is not emulating him?

     

     

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from patsbandwagonsince76. Show patsbandwagonsince76's posts

    Re: BB Continues To Be A Trailblazer

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

     

     

     

    In response to 42AND46's comment:

     

    In response to JohnHannahrulz's comment:

     

    Jints ask yourself this question would rather have Reese as GM/ Director of Player Personel or Parcells since 2004 with the Giants organization? Could be the Maras and Tischs of the world are smarter than their nostalgic fans.

     




    Hannah with respect what the bloody hell are you talking about?

     

    Bill Parcells hasn't worked for the Giants since 1990...in the 7 years from 83-90 he resurrected the franchise and won two sb's-then he went on to do what I have detailed above with NE Jets and Cowboys-what does this have to do with Parcells since 2004? his greatness and his legacy/legend was built long before then...this is like asking a Yankee fan who would you want from 1996 to 2008 Joe Torre or Casey Stengel

    what does Jerry Reese being the right man in the present day-or even Ernie Accorsi before him-have to do with Parcells accomplishments, with the fact that he has one of the most sucessful coaching trees in NFL history or that-the main bone of contention for some pats fans-Bellichick learned from him and Young and applied it and continues to-with his own ideas and stamp? note I did say BB "erxpanded" on what he learned with the Giants

    Not sure if that answers you because I don't quite get ur point here

    for what it's worth yes very satisfied with JR- as satisfied as Pats fans are with Bellichick

    the continued kick in the head here is how often I acknowledge how good a coach and GM BB is but some people (RUSTY!!) can't stand anything but calling him the greatest of the greatest who was given direct football knowledge from Moses himself in 5000 BC

     




    He resurrected the Giants as A COACH and what's funnier is Lawrence Taylor didn't take off until 1985 when BB was promoted to Def Coordinator. Absolute truth and not a coincidence.

     

    Parcells was not the GM or entrusted in personnel decisions while with the Giants.

     

     




    Parcells certainly knows discipline and has a good BS meter and knows how to hire..or in the case of the Giants keep on the right people.

     


    Stop propigating the myth BB learned anything from Parcells about football and him being part of his "Coaching Tree" ...Parcells was a NFL coach after BB was, but came in higher up in the hierachy. Sure, I think Parcells taught BB a lot about hiring coaches, managing coaches, football politics...very useful stuff.

    I agree with Rusty..was BB who had the important football insights that turned around that franchise, give credit to Parcells and player personell at that time for listening to him.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: BB Continues To Be A Trailblazer

    I am sure bb learned from parcels and parcells from bb. I wouldnt say bb owes everything to parcells, nor parcells to bb. 

    Building on what I said before and what Mr Gints said....bb has expanded on it...yes. He has expanded on it. And developed new approaches. As a combo GM and coach, I think he is now and has been above parcells level for some time. I think he will go down in nfl history as the better of the 2. I think bb is a better coach, schemer, and game strategy guy than parcells. 

    parcells contribution to the pats can't be overlooked. How many pats players were drafted by parcells that contributed big to use winning our first SB in 2001? That can't be overlooked. 

    I think parcells is a good turnaround guy and a good talent evaluator. I think he knows a good player. Look at who he drafted in dallas...some pretty big names highlighted by Demarcus ware. Sure he has had his brainfaerts on picks as bb, Ozzie and others, but generally those guys do very well.

    not sure Russ what 2 mistakes I made earlier? I was simply pointing out that bb learned sometching from parcells...how could he not when the 2 have worked together for so long?  Same is said for parcells learning from bb...these are 2 guys at the top of their profession. I am sure there is a lot of mutually respect on football knowledge that is shared. 

    What bb does that I haven't seen parcells do is create pipelines of talent in college, studying college systems, talking frequently with college coaches and relying on their opinions in part. I think bb's linkages he has created into the college ranks is the best I have seen. Schianno, chip Kelly, Meyer, Sagan, etc...I also thing he e ringing back the 2 TE set but adding a whole new level of athleticism to it is new. Bb does a lot of innovative things And wins.. That is why as a coach, I think he is actually better than parcells. But, just my opinion.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: BB Continues To Be A Trailblazer

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

    In response to UD6's comment:

     

    ok so what we're saying is that Belichick really isn't the two tight end trendsetter. 

    That's all.

     




    Well, I think in this era and with the Gronk and Hernadez picks, he's rekindled it.  Look, you can be jealous all day like Gunty is here, when you try to discredit or tone down BB's trailblazing approaches, but I can make a list of 10 unique things in terms of tweaking ideologies on offense or defense that literally he's done by his lonesome.

     

    One example is the trade for Welker and now Welker is arguably the best slot WR anyone has ever seen. 

    He's incredibly creative, while most teams are just trying to build a team that makes the playoffs in successive years.

    I'll take your feeble attempt to counter as a backpedal and concession. lol

     



    If the jealousy resides anywhere its with you.  A statement is made and refuted with proof.  I don't find anything either jealous or regressive with that.  If you do, maybe you are the one who is sauced. 

    Your jealousy is demonstrated by your incessant attempts to cover up and/or deflect from the mistaken statement. 

    The Welker thing was done before too.  Brandon Stokely anyone?  Wallowed in Baltimore until he was made a star in Indy.  Thanks for once again ascribing something to Belichick that was done not too long before by the colts.  Maybe Belichick is like the Japanese of the 80's - inventors of nothing, but recreator extraordinaire. 

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxfan94. Show redsoxfan94's posts

    Re: BB Continues To Be A Trailblazer

    "I think you have the Bill's as# backwards. BP never won a SB without BB. BB won three without BP."

     

    BINGO!

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from JohnHannahrulz. Show JohnHannahrulz's posts

    Re: BB Continues To Be A Trailblazer

    The point ,Jints, is that Reese has done a better job as GM/Director of Player Personel than Parcells and that, while, Parcells is a great coach some credit needs to be given to Accorsi  & Co. for assembling the talent that obviously helped Parcells. One could easily make a cogent argument that Reese has been a better GM than Parcells (Phins, Cowpokes, Jets). The guy accountable for assembling a team that has won 2 SBs is a better GM than a GM who has won none. Great coach, average GM.....that is Parcells.

     
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  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: BB Continues To Be A Trailblazer

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

     

    Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out trading down, or better yet trading into the future, might be a good idea in a weak draft.

     



    You're right, it's not rocket science, but weak/strong is unimportant. If the guy you can get at 60 is equal to the guy you can get with your pick at 50, according to your draft board, you trade down and get more picks. Conversely if you're sitting at 50 and the guy you want will be gone before you pick, you move up.

     

    It has more to do with specific players than the overall draft pool.


    That's why I say in general terms during a weak draft it's better to trade into the future.

     
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