BB Proves He's the Master!

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    Re: BB Proves He's the Master!

    [QUOTE]Look up disingenuous please. That wasn't disingenuous. That was holding you to a standard instead of letting slip around making cases when they suit you. So bottom line question. You already said you wish he could be better. Does that make it a good selection? Or does that make it a selection worth taking over?
    Posted by zbellino[/QUOTE]

    LOL - you're setting the standard.  Good.  Here it is (or was, I think, until you changed it).  Addai has been to a pro bowl (your original standard).  Maroney has not.  What I think of Addai's contributions last year are of no matter in the arguement.  Addai wins.   

    So you apply a second standard - Scouts inc. - What is that, when the first method doesn't work, try a second?? 

    And then we get to the third standard - your opinion.  And I am the one who is disingenuous?

    And how come you didn't bring up those other probowl players of the colts?  Like Addai - did they not deserve it either while every other pat player did?  Were you just hoping I wouldn't bring it up?  Maybe you were applying standards 2 or 3 when you chose not to include them. 

    pretty selective arguing there Z.  All in the name of imparitiality though, I am sure, right?

    dis⋅in⋅gen⋅u⋅ous -–adjective 
    lacking in frankness, candor, or sincerity; falsely or hypocritically ingenuous; insincere: Her excuse was rather disingenuous.

    Here is more of your doublespeak in this thread.

    Z - And I am usually the one who says that Addai is the quality back that you keep cr@pping on.

    Z - If Addai is so good, then why did Indy draft another RB this season??? Quick hint. He is over-rated and only made the probowl because of his Laundry. 

    And lets talk about Rob Morris.  So a 4 year starter 60 of 62 games and then 9 starts in 06 including the playoff run is a bust?  And you want to compare him to Klemm the 18 game career starter.  Yep - apples to apples there. 

    Look if you want to apply opinions that our picks wouldn't start on other teams, I'd have to disagree.  I could go down that list if you'd like, but why bother?  The colts record over the past decade is one of the tops in the league.  If our players were that bad (and I am not saying they are the best), how'd we manage the record we have?

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    Re: BB Proves He's the Master!

    Vrabel played 4 years for the Steelers.  rodney harrison was a probowler twice with san diego before going to NE.  Jeff Saturday never played another down for another team and has been on no other game day roster than the colts.  If that isnt a colts pick, I don't know what is. 

    Look you want to talk about changing rules.  You set them then trashed them twice for other methods, left out players that qualifed and you are calling me slick.  LMAO.

    I will leave the secondary at this.  Hayden, Jackson, Sanders, Bethea all colts picks are significantly better than what the pats will put on the field next year at the same positions.

    So Merriweather looks like the same probowler jackson did before he got hurt - hmmm.

    Sounds to me like we both like our teams.  I like our drafts better than yours. 

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: BB Proves He's the Master!

    No.

    1.) I applied a standard.

    2.) YOU rejected the standard becaue it didn't suit your cause.

    e.g., there weren't enough pro-bowlers so you started talking up mediocre starters like they were quality players, and talking down quality players for NE. FINE. You opened that can of worms by saying Marlin Jackson was every bit as good a Meriweather and started arguing the quality of players, saying things like one Dallas Clark equals Watson and Graham, trying to confound that standard.

    3.) So I applied another. I answered your claims with conditions listed on scouting reports about these players' value, that YOU challenged as some deal breaker on my original standard. Hence, pro-bowlers straight-up doesn't work for you, so you switch it off to arguing that Jackson is an "almost" pro-bowler on Sirius Radio, and  that he is better than Meriweather. LOL at that one. 

    I was fine with standard one: pro-bowlers.
    I was fine with standard two: player quality.

    You were not.

    4.) You didn't like that one and reject it outright. Fair enough. You claimed I was applying another standard. YOU applied that standard. YOU wanted to split hairs about each player. I merely obliged you.

    5.) Then YOU changed your own orginal standard by including FA Saturday, and went beyond the parameters of the thread to give Polian a two year head start. YOU are the one applying the double standard here Dog.

    How you are missing that is beyond me. You have massive cognitive dissonance dude.

    Is it FA or not? Are we talking about BB being the best during his tenure like the thread implies, or are we talking all time here? Because all-time Polian has a track record that goes back decades. But BB has been slightly better since he has been GM/HC.

    Second, quality back does not mean pro-bowler. Quality back is not excellent. But I would never categorize him as a bust. I am a fan of his game dude. I just think Jamal Lewis was the better runner, and had the better season, and that 100 yards rushing is not a benchmark of excellence anymore. What about that is hard to understand.

    1300 yards in a run first offense with more TDs? Or 1000 yards in a pass first offense? It is merely an observation. You don't have to agree. But it doesn't effect the standard. He counts. I counted him.

    I never said Addai was a bad football player. He is a very good football player. And like I said, drafting Brown was a waste of a pick. He is Addai part two.  They should have taken a better DT (like Hood) and a WR to make up for Gonzalez or a CB who might be better than what they had.

    I count him in the tally of pro-bowlers. My personal feelings do not effect the standard. It is a hard number. Are they pro-bowlers or not? Not almost pro-bowlers. Not "I can't believe he's not a pro-bowler" pro-bowlers.

     Being disingenuous would be calling out that standard and then not counting him Addai. Kind of like when you said no FA players, and then counted Jeff Saturday.

    I may have taken a shot, but I was an honest dealer. YOU were not an honest dealer. Taking that shot was similar to you taking a shot at Ghostowski-- which ironically is a case in point for why BB drafts better. If the Colts are so good at drafting why pay five times as much for a worse kicker? If it is so easy to draft a kicker that you scorn it, why didn't the Colts just draft one?

    So thanks for looking up disingenuous, because I used it for a reason.

    Here is you in a nutshell.

    When it suits your arguement, you change your opinion.

    Just in this thread, you have built up the Colts defensive selections and Ugoh, Pollock, Joseph Addai and Gonzalez as solid draft picks.

    In other threads which are too numerous to quote you have thrown:

    -- the entire Colts line (shoot, just in this thread actually)
    -- the Colts defense just last playoffs
    -- Addai and Gonzalez

    . . . under the bus to make way for Payton Manning.

    And again, you set a strict rule yourself that we can't apply FA signings, and then come back like a kid with a new toy claiming that Polian's free-agents can count.

    So again. When I say disingenuous I mean that you are here under the pretense of being some moderate voice of dissent but you are a cheerleader.

    Facts don't matter.

    Consistancy doesn't matter.

    I will be consistent any way you want me to. Just name it. I gave you options. All I won't do is let you apply a FA while I cannot. And I will not let you claim equal when it took Polian two extra seasons to get equal (counting my mistake with Warren, my bad).

    I will gladly go back to standard one: Pro-bowls of drafted players during BB's tenure.

    Because BB wins. We have already been through that. Polian needs a two year head start, with a 1st and 4th overall to catch up.

    I will gladly go back to the discussion of quality players, because again you have thrown the Ugoh's, Pollocks, Addai's, Jacksons, Brackett's etc, etc, of the Colt's roster under the bus as underperformers who "let Manning down" too often for you to have any credibility claiming them as succsesful selections for Polian.

    And I will gladly use any scouting rubric to bolster those points, if you choose to argue player by player at the peril of making yourself a hypocrite. I mean is Gary Brackett a quality player? How about Jackson? How about Hayden? Or does the Colts defense stink like you always maintain?

    And now you are claiming that I am inconsistent. You have such audacity!

     
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    Re: BB Proves He's the Master!

    ok Z - lets go back to the original challenge.

    1st round only - since thats what I said.  Remember you were the one to conveniently throw in the second round. 

    3 probowlers to 3 probowlers (until you prove warren to me - which you haven't). 
    Colts 7 picks (not including 09) to pats 9 picks.  I like our percentages. 

    Done! Cool
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: BB Proves He's the Master!

    [QUOTE]Vrabel played 4 years for the Steelers.  rodney harrison was a probowler twice with san diego before going to NE.  Jeff Saturday never played another down for another team and has been on no other game day roster than the colts.  If that isnt a colts pick, I don't know what is. 

    How about ummm, someone the Colts drafted??? Trying to get around that standard is dishonest.

    FA or no FA?

    It was the better part of a calendar year after the draft, and after he was released by the Ravens before he was signed as a backup. THAT IS NOT A BACKUP.

    Answer the QUESTION. Was he drafted or not??????

    Vrabel and Saturday are completely comparable. Neither were contributors. Both Managers saw a diamond in the rough. You cannot count one and not the other. In fact, BB never even had a chance to draft Vrabel. The mere fact that the Colts passed on him seven rounds, and then signed him as a backup after the Ravens did speaks volumes. That is less player scouting and more player development.

    Look you want to talk about changing rules.  You set them then trashed them twice for other methods, left out players that qualifed and you are calling me slick.  LMAO.

    Dude you aren't slick you are unctuous. I didn't change the standards!!!!

    I accomodate YOU!

    Whichever one you want! Straight Pro-Bowlers? Check.

    Oh, you don't like that?

    Player Quality? I have scouting reports. You have . . . a claim you heard something once on Sirius?? Check.


    Once again what I won't let you do is give Polian a two year running head start, with a #1 and #4 AND count his FA acquistions.

    SORRY BUT YOU CANNOT CHEAT!!!!!

    I will leave the secondary at this.  Hayden, Jackson, Sanders, Bethea all colts picks are significantly better than what the pats will put on the field next year at the same positions.

    Until the Colts get bounced and you blame them for letting Manning down. Right?

    I like Sanders and Bethea. But Jackson and Hayden wouldn't be on this team. Ne just dealt a better corner than either of them for a pair of fifth rounders.

    Leigh Bodden and Shawn Springs are better players than them. Period. And that is before we see what Butler and Wheatley have to offer, and knowing the way BB drafts corners, we can guess that they will be better than any corner Polian comes up with.

    So Merriweather looks like the same probowler jackson did before he got hurt - hmmm. Sounds to me like we both like our teams.  I like our drafts better than yours.

    Wrong. Jackson never looked like a pro-bowler. Pro-bowlers at CB get more than one INT. Pro-bowlers are generally regarded as such by Scouts like I mentioned. You saying you heard it once means nothing. Sorry if that jettison's your arguement. Once again, that is the root of your problem. You have to substantiate that claim somehow. But you cannot.

    My point is that Meriweather is young, and UNLIKE Jackson his stats measure up,and are better than the pro-bowl Safeties on the Colts' roster. That claim is self-evident. He produced more in ELEVEN GAMES than Jackson has in the better portion of four seasons.

    Posted by underdogg[/QUOTE]
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: BB Proves He's the Master!

    Sorry. Here is what you said.

    ""There are teams, however, that pick better year in and year out.  Tell you what, I will go toe to toe with colts picks vs. pats picks"

    "Reamer - I totally agree which is why I said belichick is a master at stockpiling picks.  and at times he uses them to get vets he wants.  But this thread was about belichick being the master of the draft, and frankly I don't agree.  others are better."

    "bottom line, the pats have managed 3 sb's to the colts 1.  I am simply here talking about drafting this decade."


    If you are NOW making a claim that Polian has handled the fiirst round better I emphatically disagree.

    But I will oblige YOU. Despite the fact that you said some all that stuff up there about the decade (which you reneged on by going back two years) and the draft picks toe to toe, we can cherry pick AGAIN. Sigh.

    Anything to accomodate you UD.

    7 to 9 is all well and fine. Even if you don't count DROY of the year award. Which I would say handily justifies two extra selections. But OK.

    But here is the rub. With those two missing selections the Colts took players. They obviously valued those players over what was in the first that season, OR had failed at drafting before and were pressed into trading for a need. More likely IMO.

    Remember.
    2004 That becomes players. What you do with first rounders and second rounders can be amazing in trades. For instance, NE had an extra pick for dealing Bledsoe.

    So lets review:

    Hartsock
    . Never started. Didtched after a couple seasons. Had six total catches. He is now a Falcon. That means the Birds got him for free. they traded their 3rd, 2nd, and 4th for Indy's first and third after all.

    Gilbert Gardener. Started fifteen games for the Colts over three seasons. Is now out of the NFL.

    Jason David. Hey not that bad. He is better than anyone they drafted after him. He made it three years before he went to the Saints.

    2007 Tony Ugoh.
    A decent LT. Nothing special to this point.

    So out of nine picks the Colts get 11 players and three pro-bowlers.

    And out of nine picks the Patriots get 9 players three pro-bowlers and one DROY.


    Not to mention that all but one of the players NE took are still starters for their team. While Indy has just seven starters still on the roster. More isn't better right?

    So it isn't 7 to 9. It is 11 to 9. And we aren't playing blackjack.

    Again very close. But I think it was more prudent to stay in the first no?

    Maybe Chris Snee (pro-bowler) would have been a better option in 2004 than all those other guys who don't play anymore? And then maybe they wouldn't have had to dealt for a player like Ugoh in 2007. Then they could have takent Kentwan Balmer wher ethe 49ers took him, and all of a sudden they have a free second rounder two days ago instead of having to get Fili Moala to use on  . . oh, I don't know. A WR or a CB?

    Sorry. It is close. But all told I would grade Ne higher on how they have handled the first round. Trading out of the first for a collection of non-contributors is a bad set of picks.  Laughing

    I don't know how they do it in Indy, but BB tends to trade out and up. For instance, Ne gets three 2nd rounders again next season. Hooray.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from prairiemike. Show prairiemike's posts

    Re: BB Proves He's the Master!

    What is Z going to be studying at LSU, I wonder.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    Re: BB Proves He's the Master!

    Z - by sheer volume you win.  I don't even know if I have the patience to read and respond.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from jerh5. Show jerh5's posts

    Re: BB Proves He's the Master!

    [QUOTE]Wow. That was the single most biased bunch of muck I have ever seen from you. You basically just filled out a bunch of mediocre guys and a few hits with lies. Marlin Jackson and Rob Morris are both BIG  FAT BUSTS. Meriweather had more INTs last season than Jackson has had in his CAREER! Projected pro-bowler? Right. Morris was a four year starter and got bounced because he is awful. Don't lie. It makes you look slanted. Between 2000, 2005,6,7 (his superbowl year LMAO) he has seven starts. That is not a six year starter. That is a guy who got jettisoned right when the Colts defense improved. BUST. Sorry. Two first rounders. Not one pro-bowl. Jackson by year four has three picks. Ellis Hobbs had three picks last season. Ok Asante Samuel fourth rounder. Had more picks in one season than Hayden and Jennings *combined*. I would take Hobbs and Samuel over Jennings and Hayden any time any where. You are talking about two players that wouldn't start on any team besides the Colts. But don't take my word for it. How about Scouts Inc? Jackson -69 rated 32nd best in football Hayden -- 65 Jennings -- 59 Samuel -- 85 rated 8th best in football Hobbs -- 69 32nd best Randal Gay -- 69 32nd best So Ne can find a better corner as a rookie free agent than Indy can in the first round. Yeah. I want the Colts picking my defense. Especially when players like Morris don't even get ranked. Unranked. Not even worth scouting. Ok. So out of one first and two seconds. According to scouts the Colts have grabbed two guys who aren't even worth starting, and one guy who is borderline that you call a "projected probowler." And Clark is better than Graham and Watson combined? Sorry no thanks. I wouldn't make that trade. Watson hasn't gotten as many reps as Clark has, but the bottom line is that NE doesn't have a total slug like Gonzalez sitting at WR. And Daniel Graham (who makes a ton of money to do what he does) is the perfect TE. I wish NE could have affored to keep him. He is an absolute wrecking ball of a combo TE. A carbon copy of that guy just arrived at #20 this year. I know it is hard for you to understand but not everyone wants H-Backs like Clark. Some teams like a kid who can pancake a linebacker and make a tough catch over the middle, and they pay a premium. Graham was worth every single penny and a first round pick. Scouts INC has Clark as the seventh best TE, Watson tied at 12th and Graham at 13th. None of them has made a pro-bowl, all three could start on the majority of NFL teams. So you are essentially offering me two starters for one starter. Use your head dude. If you offered me Gonzalez (who will soon be a bust if he doesn't put up some serious numbers) and Addai for Mankins I would laugh. . .  out loud. One is an elite guard. The other two are a platoon runner and a third WR. Sorry dude. That is laughable. First round WR's need to get more than 500 yards a season. That is just a fact. Addai is ranked 13th among RB's Maroney is ranked 17th. If Addai is so good, then why did Indy draft another RB this season??? Quick hint. He is over-rated and only made the probowl because of his Laundry. He was picked over Jamal Lewis on a year when Lewis was twice as effective. But hey he was a Cleveland Brown and Addai is a Colt. Gonzalez isn't even starting ranked. He is in the middle cluster ranked at 36th with a group of illustrious players that include Javon Walker, Ronald Curry and a couple guys from the Eagles woeful crew. So seeing as how you want to group these kids together to try and slant things, Mankins is rated as the second best Guard in all of football. OK. Thanks for making my point. Mankins himself is worth more than Addai and Gonzalez put together. And as far as building Ugoh up. He is ranked out at 73. Like the other guard they picked up in the second last season who the jury is out on. Nikc Kazcur is the worst lineman in NE. He is ranked 70. Ne got a pro-bowl center in Koppen in the fifth round. And the only pro-bowler on Indy's line is Saturday who was drafted by the Ravens and signed later by the Colts, so per your arguement he doesn't count. Right? Ok, So the best center in football. The second best guard in football. And a top-ten tackle. Versus Ugoh, a guy who is in the middle of the pack? So lets see. NE 4th round corners better than Indy first round corners. Check. Ne fifth round OL, better than Indy's first round OL. Got it. And Indy is superior how???? In BB's time NE has drafted nine probowlers. Over the same span, despite taking more selections, and more high selections, and even including the gift pro-bowl to Addai (who per your usual rants is over-rated and per the Colt's mandate needs to be replaced by yet another 1st round RB) Indy has drafted six. And Ne has one DROY in that time span. That is . . just for accuracy sake. Brady (6th), Ghostowski (4th), Light(2nd), Koppen(5th), Mankins(1st), Wilfork (1st), Seymour (1st), Warren(1st), Samuel (4th). And Jerod Mayo (DROY 1st) Versus. Addai (cough 1st), Freeney (1st), Wayne (1st), Sanders (2nd), Washington (2nd), Mathis (5th), June (5th). Like I said. If you confine it to round one and two it is close. They appear neck and neck. With both teams drafting five pro-bowlers, but Ne having ahigher first round hit rate and Indy having a higher second round hit rate. But extend this out and it is clear that Ne has been the better drafting team under BB's tenure. Ne has drafted more pro-bowlers in the first. And pro-bowlers in every round all the way down to the sixth. Ok, so leaving personell decisions aside, like acquiring Welker, Vrabel, Harrison, Moss, and Dillon, all of whom were acquired for peanuts. And the fact that Ne leads the NFL in trading up into the next season for picks since BB arrived, routinely converting selections into higher ones the next year, which you very conveniently leave out, but I won't because three 2nds next season will be awesome. Ne is superior at scouting talent through the draft since BB arrived. By any measure aside from passing off players like Marlin Jackson and Rob Morris as anything but first round busts. Top to bottom they have drafted more pro-bowlers than Indy, and as many average starters as Indy. Like I said. Edge to NE. Thanks for giving me the chance to take shots at failed first rounders like Jackson, Gonzalez and Morris. Really three wasted picks. Most of those picks on other teams would have been moved for a better player. But Indy is constantly up against the cap because they give their five or six good players ridiculous contracts that hamstring them, and keep them from having any depth whatsoever. If you take off your Colts goggles and look at it like Scouts do.  The Colts thrive on having two or three stars on each side of the ball. The rest of those guys are  merely marginal players. But just like Scouts Inc notes with its rankings, just because these guys "start" for Indy doesn't mean they are solid picks all around. Because most of them wouldn't be number ones on other teams.
    Posted by zbellino[/QUOTE]
    Damn Z, I'm glad you are on our side. LOL
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    Re: BB Proves He's the Master!

    Z - couldn't resist. 

    Bottom Line - belichick era only. 

    First round - pats 9 picks and 3 probowlers.  colts 7 picks and 3 probowlers.  Colts win.  By the way thanks for conceding without admitting that Warren is not a probowler.  Talk about sneaky. 

    Second round - go back to my post earlier.  I said it all there.  Colts win. 

    I'll give you your 1st Round DROY and keep my 2nd Round DPOY.  I'll take that every year. 

    Springs and Bodden - ha.  Hopefully belichick brought a walker for Springs.  Keep your guys.  I feel VERY strongly that the colts corners are better than the pats and better than hobbs.  they gave up their best corner samuels who played bb's scheme like motzart played the piano.  By the way, the great Jason David was replaced by the Great Marlin Jackson.  Unlike the pats the colts did not need to go outside of their roster to get the player.  There is not an executive in the league that would take the pats secondary over the colts.  Except for the pats and of course scouts, inc.

    The colts have 2 current probowl safeties while the pats best safety got on the field only because he couldn't beat out a 25 year veteran with very little skill left.  But hey, I am sure scouts, inc. has him rated a the #6 safety while Sanders and Bethea or 19 and 31, right?  You would think Scouts would carry more weight in the league given how smart you are and how highly you regard their opinion.  I mean how could a second teamer like Merriweather miss the probowl if scouts and Z thought he was better than Bethea and DPOY Sanders - right?   Where is Merriweather's DPOY anyway - I smell conspiracy.  Your logic is gold, Z, gold!What do you mean there is none?  Didn't scouts get a vote?  hmm.  Conspiracy here.  I am sure Scouts says he's better, because that's where you go for your info.  that's your source right Z?  Keep throwing out that logic, my man, it is Gold, Jerry, Gold!

    I know you are trying to add things - with the 2004 and 2007 picks the colts gave away.  But it doesn't work.  If they give away a first and a third for 3 later picks, it doesn't matter.  We talked first round you added second.  In the BB era the colts are better with both. 

    Sorry Z.  take my agreement that overall personnel, the pats are better, but not the draft alone. 

    Thanks.Surprised
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from mgraham. Show mgraham's posts

    Re: BB Proves He's the Master!

    BB is also in tune with the economics of the game. He gets out of the first round and the big money, which he saves for Wilfork, Jets and Bills ( division ) can't afford him now!

    The pass rush OL is already there with Thomas,

    also I think another factor..... have we forgotten Guyton!!! he is a stud ILB or OLB?

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from trouts. Show trouts's posts

    Re: BB Proves He's the Master!

    Chung and Butler make this draft for me. The best safety and perhaps the best corner in the draft. Another plus is that with Paxton leaving we also got the best long snapper in the draft. Two more 2nd round picks for next year---I'd say we did pretty well!
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from unclealfie. Show unclealfie's posts

    Re: BB Proves He's the Master!

    This draft doesn't prove anything. All we have here is a bunch of guys with potential. As Yogi once said, "potential just means that you haven't done sh*t  yet".

    Let's evaluate this year's draft in 2012. 

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    Re: BB Proves He's the Master!

    alfie - you are right on about this.  Even then we may not know. 

    Here is my olive branch to Z - players like Merriweather and Jackson are given the luxury to develop because of players ahead of them.  Doesn't make them busts if they don't play the first year or 2.  Nor does it make immediate draft starters busts if they haven't realized their full potential. 

    BUT - when teams like Atlanta and Miami can go from nothing to the playoffs in one year.  The evaluation period for pundits tightens considerably. 
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: BB Proves He's the Master!

    First of all, don't call me sneaky. You have been dishonest here, and I don't think you even realized it, except for the Saturday thing which was just shifty because you CLEARLY set that rule and then broke it. You said Polian was a better drafter (very general) and that we can't count BB's "personell" decisions that include getting Moss and Welker for a 2nd and 3rd or his FA gems like Vrabel.

    Then you broke it and I called you on it, and now you are just inventing things because I called you on it.

    So again either you missed it, or you are lieing. But here we go.

    I admitted Warren was a mistake here:

    "I will be consistent any way you want me to. Just name it. I gave you options. All I won't do is let you apply a FA while I cannot. And I will not let you claim equal when it took Polian two extra seasons to get equal (counting my mistake with Warren, my bad)."

    What part of "my bad" don't you get. I actually apologized.

    So NOW I expect YOU to apoligize for calling me sneaky.

    I haven't tried to defraud you, or change the rules at all. All I am saying is that your first three statements:

    ""There are teams, however, that pick better year in and year out.  Tell you what, I will go toe to toe with colts picks vs. pats picks"

    "Reamer - I totally agree which is why I said belichick is a master at stockpiling picks.  and at times he uses them to get vets he wants.  But this thread was about belichick being the master of the draft, and frankly I don't agree.  others are better."

    "bottom line, the pats have managed 3 sb's to the colts 1.  I am simply here talking about drafting this decade."


    All have nothing to do with the Colts being better selectors in the first round minus any picks they trade away. You keep slicing it up and trying to include players that were FA's and doing all these things to keep your ship from going down.

    Please, I am only asking you to be reasonable here and stop trying to finagle. Your intial premise is so much less specific, and I provided in a two post breakdown of the draft (first in the 2nd and first with erratum at my apology, and then over the entire draft) over the last nine seasons BB versus Polian, which provides evidence to the contrary of your assertion.

    How can you go from Polian is a better drafter, to Polian is better inthe first if you discount DROY, and trade downs? Is that honest? Does that verify your initial statement?

    BB has drafted more impact players in the drafting his tenure. More than Polian by fact, and I am willing to bet more than any team over that stretch. If Polian drafted nine straight pro-bowlers in the fifth round I wouldn't be whining and trying to get you to discount the fifth round so NE could make it closer.

    I would man up, and admit that Polian had the edge. Bethea is a case in point. He is a very high quality safety. He came in the sixth. He was a better selection than Hayden, Jackson, and Jennings put together, and if you tried to trade me those three I wouldn't take it because they are marginal players and he is very good.

    You can sit here gerrymandering rounds. You can change the rules on me again. You never said first until just recently because you realized that top to bottom BB has conducted a slightly better draft than Indy the last nine seasons.

    I answered your question about the first round. Indy traded its picks for draftees in other rounds. That is picking man. What about that is hard to understand. Ne traded down this season, and don't think for a second that the three picks he got for it (Butler, and two seconds next season) will always be measured against the players he could have gotten at #23.

    And if this thread is revisted, or one like crops up in the future, I most certainly will include that move into his first round evals. Sometimes the best pick is a trade down for a gamble, sometimes it isn't. THAT IS DRAFTING.

    And I am that kind of football guy. If Butler and the two guys he picks up later turn into nothing, and Oher, Davis and Matthews do better I will call that a BIG mistake. But I like my odds with three seconds to one first.

    Here is the bottom line. You can take whatever you want about whatever you want. You can cut the draft up. You can compare firsts, but each team has had nine first rounders and BB came away with 3PBs and one DROY and Polian three PBs. EDGE: BB. Sorry it is there in black and white. More starters, more impact players, by a small margin, but it is there.

    You can compare 7th, 2nd, 4th, 1st. The bottom line is that as I demonstrated NE has drafted more impact players in the draft over his tenure. Hence he is the master.


     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: BB Proves He's the Master!

    Also, I retract nothing about my comments RE:your general outlook on the Colts.

    If Jackson, Hayden, Brackett, et al are so good. If Addai is so good. If Ugoh and Pollock are so good. If these are all quality picks.

    If Polian is so good.

    Then why do you blame them all when the Colts lose in the playoffs?

    You said numerous times, had it out with numerous posters here, and said this in this thread:

    Colts defense was weak so they lost to SD. (I disagree, their defense was great, but not because of Hayden and Jackson and Jennings that is for sure).

    Colts offensive line was weak, that is why Manning couldn't get points. (Which I disagree, he wasn't chased all over the field that day, and the Bolts defense was horrible, as it was proved the next week when Big Ben carved them up).

    Colts running game could get it done. (Which I disagree again. If anything they should have taken the ball out of Manning's hand like they did in 2006 and they likely would have won that game. Addai gets the two yards and a first down, Manning couldn't).

    So which is it?

    Are these all quality players? Ugoh, Pollock, Addai, Hayden, Jackson, et al? Or do you rescind what you said last season?

    Please do answer this one and don't change the topic.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: BB Proves He's the Master!

    [QUOTE]alfie - you are right on about this.  Even then we may not know.  Here is my olive branch to Z - players like Merriweather and Jackson are given the luxury to develop because of players ahead of them.  Doesn't make them busts if they don't play the first year or 2.  Nor does it make immediate draft starters busts if they haven't realized their full potential.  BUT - when teams like Atlanta and Miami can go from nothing to the playoffs in one year.  The evaluation period for pundits tightens considerably. 
    Posted by underdogg[/QUOTE]

    You see. Meriweather started behind someone, and tehn was a starter last season with great results. Who has Jackson been behind? I look and I see that he has had 25 starts to Meriweather's 11.

    Wouldn't you say that four seasons in Marlin Jackson has yet to do much of anything special that that is enough evaluation time????

    If in four seasons Meriweather's numbers have fallen back I will stop calling him an impact player. But the bottom line is that he was a game changer last season. I see no reason for him not to continue being a game changer.

    Year      Age      Tm      Pos      G      GS      Sk      Int       PD      FF     
    2005     22     IND                   15     1         0       1          4       0   
    2006     23     IND     FS           14     8         0       1          5       0        
    2007     24     IND     RCB         16     16     0.5       1          4       1  
    2008     25     IND     rcb           7     7         0        0         1        1

    Do those look like the stats of someone heading to the pro-bowl at CB? Here. Everyone can see them. Make your call.

    You can discount his rookie season, because he only started on game.

    I will put Meriweather's stats against anyone of the pro-bowl safeties (except Ed Reed who is simply in another league from everyone else).

    Including Sanders and Bethea. And no I am not saying it is a conspiracy. He didn't make the pro-bowl. But the bottom line is that he produced the numbers that you expect from Troy Polomalu. And better numbers than you get from most other safeties. That bodes very, very well.

    Meriweather has a clear upward trajectory. After four years Jackson looks average. You can tell me whether that is a bust or not, because it depends on what you expect out of a first round selection.

    If you can't admit that he has an upward trajectory after two seasons, while Marlin Jackson after four looks like he wasn't worth a first rounder, then you aren't being very objective.

    Meriweather has produced more in two seasons than he has in four.

    Not that it matters one bit to my original premise because we were counting pro-bowls.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from prairiemike. Show prairiemike's posts

    Re: BB Proves He's the Master!



     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    Re: BB Proves He's the Master!

    whew -

    No way I can read all of that and keep my job.  It will have to wait. 

    Anyway - you brought up the first round and then added the second.  I said drafting only - you want to use picks as trade downs etc. 

    Missed the warren comments among your many long tomes - please accept my apology. 

    By the way with Merriweather being the next Great Strong Safety - why draft chung?  Surely they would not move Merriweather off HIS spot.  He's about to be a probowler.  LOL

    Edge Polian. 
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Pats7393. Show Pats7393's posts

    Re: BB Proves He's the Master!

    [QUOTE]whew - No way I can read all of that and keep my job.  It will have to wait.  Anyway - you brought up the first round and then added the second.  I said drafting only - you want to use picks as trade downs etc.  Missed the warren comments among your many long tomes - please accept my apology.  By the way with Merriweather being the next Great Strong Safety - why draft chung?  Surely they would not move Merriweather off HIS spot.  He's about to be a probowler.  LOL Edge Polian. 
    Posted by underdogg[/QUOTE]
    Draft Chung because the combination of Chung and Merriweather is much better than Meriweather and Sanders so it's not because of M it's because of Sanders.  Sanders becomes the man on the bench after mid season. 
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: BB Proves He's the Master!

    Man you need to learn how to argue. What you just said makes absolutely zero sense whatsoever.

    NE doesn't use SS/FS like Indy does. It is an artificial designation here. They play both safeties high and low. Indy keeps their safeties to the traditional role mostly.

    But the bottom line is that they are both "tweeners." Meriweather leans toward coverage, Chung leans toward tackling. They both can do both, but they will have tendencies.

    In the long run, Chung replaces Sanders. Which he should. Sanders is only adequate. He is alright for a fourth round safety. But like Jackson, he has never proved to be anything special.

    No way Chung replaces Meriweather. They work together. I could ask the same question BTW, of Antoine Bethea. Why draft him if Sanders is so good? I mean Sanders spends every other year in crutches, but still.

    Or I coudl pose your same silly questions back at you. If you count Washington as a pro-bowler, why was he released before his first pro-bowl? He won that award on the Redskins not on the Colts.

    If Jackson and Hayden are so good, why did Indy respond by drafting another corner in the second the next season?

    The point is that you need two safeties. Just like you need three corners.

    BTW, I like how you gloss over every single point I make and never answer a single question. It is a real pleasure talking to you. Real fair that I respond to everything you write and you just pass over everything I ask.

    Again.

    If the Colts players are so good. Then why do you trash them as failures?

    And.

    What does an artifical slice of the first round (EDGE NE by DROY) have to do with both teams drafting overall?

    Sorry UD. You opened this can of worms by saying toe-to-toe and saying no FA's.

    You set the rules, I am just trying to play in them, but every time I win, you change em. My basic contention is that NE has run a superior draft to Indy over that time. I believe the count of awards etc given to NE players merits that assertion.

    NE and Indy draw at pro-bowlers, but NE has more total awards by a long shot in that time span.

    EDGE NE. Sorry. You can make up all you want, but it doesn't make you right.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: BB Proves He's the Master!

    For UD and all.

    Here is a breakdown of BB versus what I think are the other teams that have been competitive in the draft the past nine years. I would like to see the Cowboys, Giants and Ravens too, because I bet they did nearly as well. OK, so who has done the best in total awards? I will let others judge. I can only say that under no circumstances has Polian run a better draft than NE over this time,but that in all honesty, for pure drafting skills I think SD has to take the cake. They have one less accolade.


    Brady(x4)                 Freeney (x4)           Ben Roethlisburger (x1)     
    Light (x1)                 Mathis (x1)             Casey Hampton (x4)
    Koppen (x1)              Sanders (x2)           Willie Parker (x2)
    Mankins (x1)             Bethea (x1)             Troy Polamalu (x5)
    Seymour (x5)            Wayne (x2)             James Harrison (x2)
    Samuel (x2)              Addai (x1)               Kendrell Bell (x1)
    Gostowski (x1)          Washington (x1)        Marvell Smith (x1)
    Wilfork(x1)                June (x1)       

    16 Pro-Bowl berths    13 Pro-Bowl Berths    16 Pro-Bowl Berths

    SB MVP x2                DPOY x1                  DPOY x1
    DROY x1                                                SBMVP x2
    NFL MVP x1                                            OROY x 1
    OPOY - x1                                              DROY x 1

    21 awards                14 awards                 21 awards
    77 selections            75 selections             69 selections


    Nate Kaeding (x1)
    Kassim Osgood (x1)
    Kris Dielman (X 2)
    Ladanian Tomlinson (X5)
    Marcus McNiel (X1)
    Nick Hardwick (x1)
    Antonio Gates (x5)
    Antonio Cromartie (1)
    Phillip Rivers (x1)
    Shawne Merriman (x3)
    Drew Brees (x3)
    Michael Turner (x1)

    12 PBers
    25 Pro-Bowl Berths

    OPOY x2
    MVP x1
    DROY x1

    29 awards
    71 total selections

    By my score, all accolades per team?

    SD 29
    NE 21
    PIT 21
    IND 14

    This is essentially an all out no holds barred grudge match
    to see if BB has been the master when compared to these other three
    great personel people. As the title of the thread indicates.

    DeanButler/A.J. Smith (SD)
    Kevin Colbert (PIT)
    Bill Polian (IND)

    What does this tell us? SD can draft but can't coach. LOL. But that SD has run a heck of a draft the last nine years.

    In fact it is astoudning how well each of these teams do. Every one of these teams almost average a probowler a draft! That is quite a haul. More impressive is that every season these teams add more or less two accolades to their team!

    Kudos to Dean Butler and his protege A.J. Smith they really have run quite a draft!!!!

    I think the difference in wins comes down to coaching SD never had someone as good as BB, Cowher, Tomlin or Dungy.

    And it comes down to extra PP moves-- like SD ditching Turner and hanging on to Tomlinson. Or getting rid of Brees too early in favor of Rivers. Judging by how they draft they would have likely found a pro-bowler out of Sean Taylor, LArry Fitzgerald, Deangelo Hall and Roy Williams. LOL.

    But, they have drafted to every phase of the game and done it well. They have drafted two pro-bowl Qb's in that span that alone is something. They should fire Norv now though.


     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    Re: BB Proves He's the Master!

    Congrats - your exhaustive research is instructive.  All of these coach/gm combos had the benefit of drafting their QB and significant RB in 2000 or later.  All of them except the colts, because we limited this to Belichicks first year.  it made me wonder why the colts and polian's drafting acumen should be somehow artificially (and inaccurately) diminished just because Belichick couldn't find a head coaching job until 2000. 

    Easy answer - it shouldn't. 

    Just because the colts didn't need a running back or quarterback in 2000 or after (until they drafted addai) since Polian had drafted the best in the league at these positions each of the prior 2 years (which were polians first 2 years with the colts) is no reason not to give the appropriate kudos Polian is obviously due for these picks. 

    Because you chose awards as your criteria, lets see what these two players have accomplished from an awards perspective for Bill Polian and how that affects the numbers. 

    13 probowls, 3 mvps, 1 sb mvp, 1 opoy, and 1 oroy. 19 awards.


    Add that to your 14 and we have a total of 33. 


    Wait - you say - NO FAIR.  Belichick is being shortchanged because he couldn't get a head coaching job before 2000.  OK - but by the same token Belichick's inability to get a head coaching job before 2000 shortchanges polian. 


    So - lets take out any awards received prior to belichick setting foot in foxboro. 

    That would remove 2 probowls and 1 oroy.  Whats that leave - 30 awards.

    Look Z - I've already admitted that Belichick is the best personnel man.  He is.  But Polian has solidified his place as the best drafter. 

    As for me trashing the colts - I think you have overstated this a bit.  Please pull your notes (you said you had them) on this so that you may refresh my memory as to what I said. 

    I have said that Addai needs to do more - he does.  His injuries have hampered him.  The colts o-line injuries and youth hampered them significantly this last year.  That doesn't make them bad.  It is just hard for a unit to work as a unit when the pieces are changing every week.  As a football guy, I am sure you know this. 

    The colts interior d line has been a mess for years.  With a little help here the linebackers who are undersized can do their job better, but they also caught the injury bug.  

    Add Jackson and Sanders missing significant time and every area of the colts (don't forget marvin at wideout) suffered from production issues due to injuries.  And yes I do give manning props this year because he had the 31st ranked rushing o, a musical chairs o-line, and his best wideout no longer as his best wide out all while recovering from 2 knee surgeries only to help his team go 12-4 which was needed to make the playoffs.  Yep, I give manning props for last year. 
     
    The colts experienced the injury bug last year unlike they have in the past and it affected them.  They still managed 12-4, but a number of the games were very close.  That the colts didn't win in SD was disheartening but not entirely surprising. 

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: BB Proves He's the Master!

    So you are basically asking me to spot Polian a 1st and 4th overall? And we have already been through this.

    If I were asking you to spot me two of BB's selections, just knock two seasons off of the Colts, like take away Freeney and whoever was picked after him, you would say "no fair your guy gets two extra seasons to draft."

    And at that matter it isn't just two picks it is actually 14 picks which is the grand total. So Polian given two extra years with two extra selections.

    Sorry dude. That isn't fair at all. No matter how you slice it.

    That would be like me saying we should count all of the teams BB scouted for and then digging all the way back to replace that number one with say the number two he scouted out in 1980's. You might know his name Lawrence Taylor? OK, so that still spot Polian a year-- but then Bill wins. So I know you wouldn't like that one. 

    L.T. who BB actually scouted out as linebackers coach (and Carl Banks and Pepper Johnson) has almost as many accolades as Manning and James put together. 

    And like Tom Brady he will probably go down as the best player who ever played his spot.

    Would that be fair? No.

    But the truth is that Polian doesn't even evaluate this talent. He pays other people to evaluate talent. He isn't on the ground at colleges, visiting programs like BB is to watch players work out. The fact is that BB has a much, much larger hand in who is and isn't drafted.

    All Polian does is get a list from his scouts and then he takes the best player on that list and signs them to a contract.

    BB builds that list for himself.

    In short, if you are talking about evaluating talent, there is no phase ever where Polian can touch that, unless you are counting up organizational hirees.

    As "a football guy" I *know* that. That is how it works. Polian doesn't evaluate talent. Someone else on the Colts does that he hires -- probably a combination of HC and scouts and position coaches who have shifted spots.

    BB puts together his own board. AS a football guy I know Polian does not. He signs the contracts and makes the personell decisions. He doesn't actually draft.

    Or to quote Polian himself:
    “It's their operation of our system that makes it go,” Polian said. “They're the experts on the system. They're the ultimate expert. In the end, you're always going to listen to them in terms of what a player is and what he isn't.

    http://www.colts.com/sub.cfm?page=article7&news_id=ee0715c3-81a7-4344-8e97-9a5bd0fc64c7

    And furthermore, I would question Polian's whole drafting strategy through his whole career that slants comparisons artificially in his favor. Polian peripheral position players. They are his greatest scores historically. Manning. Thurman Thomas. Andre Reed. Etc. But for some reason the teams he builds have always had trouble putting together championships but have always put up crazy stats and had boku pro-bowls, but not much in terms of results. In short, he is overrated as a drafter. His strategy is weak.

    Case in point is this season. Here you are complaining about a big DT and other Colts fans I know complaining about an OT. What did he do with his first pick? He pased on two elite DTs in Ron Brace and Evander Hood to draft another running back who probably shouldn't have been drafted that high (time will tell).

    And I am sure in a couple years Brown might have a probowl or some good numbers, but he hasn't addressed the actual problem. And if Indy has problems with O-line depth or D-line talent, you can blame his drafting strategy.

    In short, I absolutely will not spot Polian years based on the fact that BB was doing something else. It is just not apropo to the question at hand.

    You said Colts picks versus Pats picks toe to toe, but you want to spot Polian extra seasons with two to five selections. Sorry. That isn't fair. That isn't toe-to-toe.

    And please don't EVER take shots at BB's record saying things like, it took him so long to get a job. This guy has got 5 rings as a coach to Polian's one as a GM. And head to head in the playoffs BB teams are 3-1 against Polian teams.
    When Polian was "building" the Bills, BB was beating the Bills.

    Sorry. Not that it has anythingto do with the original thread, and it was just you taking another shot for no reason. But, it isn't even a competition between the two in that department, or in the general football mind competition.

    So your basic and only point is that if you give Polian an extra #1 and an extra #4 to use, trade, do whatever with, he gets two great players. OK. That is a fair assessment. Guess what, give BB two extra top five selections and he would probably do the same. Most top five selections become great players. That is why they are top five.

    I don't take that away from Polian. I already said he has a great track record. He is up there with some all timers like Shula, Landry great guys who put together great teams.

    But if you take a baseball analogy here, you don't say a hitter who has more homeruns because he has played longer is better than a hitter who is ripping them out of the park at a better rate than him but has two less years is a better hitter.  He has just played longer. And more importantly that first hitter spent his first two years hitting in Coors field.

    No one would take that argument serisouly. They would laugh it off.

    But pitting one to one doesn't mean a thing if you are pitting 2-1, which is what you are trying to do.

    You said year to year, I can only go year to year in that time span.

    The bottom line is that in BB's tenure, only one man has drafted better and it isn't Bill Polian. Polian can get the old-timers award. But I don't think he is a better drafter than Bill. BB has taken the NFL by storm. On the field. In the draft room. And in the GM chair.

    Sorry. There is no way you can convince me of that short of my missing some major statistic that shows that he has. If I am choosing one guy from the two to go into a draft with it is Bill Belichik. I believe during his tenure that has proven itself out.

    I don't take an exec who signs checks and hires scouts. Sorry.

    And that said I am done. I would rather spend time with my girlfriend watching the Red Sox than entertaining yet another of your exhausting arguments of why the Colts are better than the Pats. Orwhy Manning is better than everyone. Or why Dungy is morally superior. Or whatever your most recent fix is.

    Feel free to have the last word. I am not going to bother reading the thread. See you later.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from CommChairman. Show CommChairman's posts

    Re: BB Proves He's the Master!

    [QUOTE]Seems to me that he is the master of compiling picks, but not necessarily picking.  That said, compiling picks is not a bad thing, but be clear.  It is not picking.  If picking were his forte then he would not be bringing in so many veterans.  He would not need to. 
    Posted by underdogg[/QUOTE]

    Belichick has a history of busts with 2nd round picks. He took 4 of them this draft.
     

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