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BB Proves He's the Master!

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    Re: BB Proves He's the Master!

    alfie - you are right on about this.  Even then we may not know. 

    Here is my olive branch to Z - players like Merriweather and Jackson are given the luxury to develop because of players ahead of them.  Doesn't make them busts if they don't play the first year or 2.  Nor does it make immediate draft starters busts if they haven't realized their full potential. 

    BUT - when teams like Atlanta and Miami can go from nothing to the playoffs in one year.  The evaluation period for pundits tightens considerably. 
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from prairiemike. Show prairiemike's posts

    Re: BB Proves He's the Master!



     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    Re: BB Proves He's the Master!

    whew -

    No way I can read all of that and keep my job.  It will have to wait. 

    Anyway - you brought up the first round and then added the second.  I said drafting only - you want to use picks as trade downs etc. 

    Missed the warren comments among your many long tomes - please accept my apology. 

    By the way with Merriweather being the next Great Strong Safety - why draft chung?  Surely they would not move Merriweather off HIS spot.  He's about to be a probowler.  LOL

    Edge Polian. 
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Pats7393. Show Pats7393's posts

    Re: BB Proves He's the Master!

    whew - No way I can read all of that and keep my job.  It will have to wait.  Anyway - you brought up the first round and then added the second.  I said drafting only - you want to use picks as trade downs etc.  Missed the warren comments among your many long tomes - please accept my apology.  By the way with Merriweather being the next Great Strong Safety - why draft chung?  Surely they would not move Merriweather off HIS spot.  He's about to be a probowler.  LOL Edge Polian. 
    Posted by underdogg

    Draft Chung because the combination of Chung and Merriweather is much better than Meriweather and Sanders so it's not because of M it's because of Sanders.  Sanders becomes the man on the bench after mid season. 
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    Re: BB Proves He's the Master!

    Congrats - your exhaustive research is instructive.  All of these coach/gm combos had the benefit of drafting their QB and significant RB in 2000 or later.  All of them except the colts, because we limited this to Belichicks first year.  it made me wonder why the colts and polian's drafting acumen should be somehow artificially (and inaccurately) diminished just because Belichick couldn't find a head coaching job until 2000. 

    Easy answer - it shouldn't. 

    Just because the colts didn't need a running back or quarterback in 2000 or after (until they drafted addai) since Polian had drafted the best in the league at these positions each of the prior 2 years (which were polians first 2 years with the colts) is no reason not to give the appropriate kudos Polian is obviously due for these picks. 

    Because you chose awards as your criteria, lets see what these two players have accomplished from an awards perspective for Bill Polian and how that affects the numbers. 

    13 probowls, 3 mvps, 1 sb mvp, 1 opoy, and 1 oroy. 19 awards.


    Add that to your 14 and we have a total of 33. 


    Wait - you say - NO FAIR.  Belichick is being shortchanged because he couldn't get a head coaching job before 2000.  OK - but by the same token Belichick's inability to get a head coaching job before 2000 shortchanges polian. 


    So - lets take out any awards received prior to belichick setting foot in foxboro. 

    That would remove 2 probowls and 1 oroy.  Whats that leave - 30 awards.

    Look Z - I've already admitted that Belichick is the best personnel man.  He is.  But Polian has solidified his place as the best drafter. 

    As for me trashing the colts - I think you have overstated this a bit.  Please pull your notes (you said you had them) on this so that you may refresh my memory as to what I said. 

    I have said that Addai needs to do more - he does.  His injuries have hampered him.  The colts o-line injuries and youth hampered them significantly this last year.  That doesn't make them bad.  It is just hard for a unit to work as a unit when the pieces are changing every week.  As a football guy, I am sure you know this. 

    The colts interior d line has been a mess for years.  With a little help here the linebackers who are undersized can do their job better, but they also caught the injury bug.  

    Add Jackson and Sanders missing significant time and every area of the colts (don't forget marvin at wideout) suffered from production issues due to injuries.  And yes I do give manning props this year because he had the 31st ranked rushing o, a musical chairs o-line, and his best wideout no longer as his best wide out all while recovering from 2 knee surgeries only to help his team go 12-4 which was needed to make the playoffs.  Yep, I give manning props for last year. 
     
    The colts experienced the injury bug last year unlike they have in the past and it affected them.  They still managed 12-4, but a number of the games were very close.  That the colts didn't win in SD was disheartening but not entirely surprising. 

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from CommChairman. Show CommChairman's posts

    Re: BB Proves He's the Master!

    Seems to me that he is the master of compiling picks, but not necessarily picking.  That said, compiling picks is not a bad thing, but be clear.  It is not picking.  If picking were his forte then he would not be bringing in so many veterans.  He would not need to. 
    Posted by underdogg


    Belichick has a history of busts with 2nd round picks. He took 4 of them this draft.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    Re: BB Proves He's the Master!

    Z - my apologies.  the volume of your comments is simply more than I care to digest in a message board discussion.  Besides, I am sure most of the comments are biased.  But I did see some things. 

    First - facts only - prowbowls and awards are fine, but player quality, are you kidding me?  Who's the judge, you? scouts, inc? LOL.  Hey, I am sure you can count on yourself to be objective.  :)

    You are right, though, I don't know how to argue.  so I will stick with the facts.    

    In the first round the colts are the better with or without Manning and James.  but manning and james should not be discounted simply because belichick was not in place.  manning and brady are the 2 best qbs in the league and receive multiple awards.  Just because polian drafted manning before belichick got a job is no reason to give the accolades to belichick for drafting brady when polian had done the same thing.  When defining who is better, polian's drafts of manning and james cannot be left out.  In fact, it is only when you add manning and james, that the colts do draft higher than the pats.  Without them, the pats draft higher than indy.  check the numbers.  So on this level you are wrong twice.  Regardless - if we don't use Manning and James, the colts have as many probowlers with fewer and higher picks.  Round one to polian.

    In the second round the colts are clearly better - from 03-07 colts won 4-0 including a DPOY, and don't give me the line about the player who died.  He had 3 years and no starts.  Of all of the busts you've tried to identify on the colts, attempting characterize a 3 year non-starter as an incomplete is ridiculous.  the avg career of a player is only 3 1/2 seasons.    
     - in the second round, prior to 03, the pats won 3-1 not including the extra NE bust bethel Johnson.  Regardless the numbers altogether show Indy is better, If you include Jerome Pathon and Mike Peterson, the colts are still better. 

    As for not including wheatley.  Why not?  didn't you include Mayo?  Can't have it both ways.  that's called a double standard. 

    Finally, the only reason you do not want to include polian's drafts prior to Belichick's arrival is not because belichick did not have a chance, but because polian's picks were so good that they prove he is a better drafter.  

    Polian is a better drafter.

    Oh and as for my comments on the colts loss (not failure), it was more me complaining about injuries than it was skill.  Yes I have some concerns about the colts.  The secondary is not one of them.  DT has been one for quite some time.  the youth of the O-line was also a concern.  I hope this year they will be better. 
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from jmann8222. Show jmann8222's posts

    Re: BB Proves He's the Master!

    Z - my apologies.  the volume of your comments is simply more than I care to digest in a message board discussion.  Besides, I am sure most of the comments are biased.  But I did see some things.  First - facts only - prowbowls and awards are fine, but player quality, are you kidding me?  Who's the judge, you? scouts, inc? LOL.  Hey, I am sure you can count on yourself to be objective.  :) You are right, though, I don't know how to argue.  so I will stick with the facts.     In the first round the colts are the better with or without Manning and James.  but manning and james should not be discounted simply because belichick was not in place.  manning and brady are the 2 best qbs in the league and receive multiple awards.  Just because polian drafted manning before belichick got a job is no reason to give the accolades to belichick for drafting brady when polian had done the same thing.  When defining who is better, polian's drafts of manning and james cannot be left out.  In fact, it is only when you add manning and james, that the colts do draft higher than the pats.  Without them, the pats draft higher than indy.  check the numbers.  So on this level you are wrong twice.  Regardless - if we don't use Manning and James, the colts have as many probowlers with fewer and higher picks.  Round one to polian. In the second round the colts are clearly better - from 03-07 colts won 4-0 including a DPOY, and don't give me the line about the player who died.  He had 3 years and no starts.  Of all of the busts you've tried to identify on the colts, attempting characterize a 3 year non-starter as an incomplete is ridiculous.  the avg career of a player is only 3 1/2 seasons.      - in the second round, prior to 03, the pats won 3-1 not including the extra NE bust bethel Johnson.  Regardless the numbers altogether show Indy is better, If you include Jerome Pathon and Mike Peterson, the colts are still better.  As for not including wheatley.  Why not?  didn't you include Mayo?  Can't have it both ways.  that's called a double standard.  Finally, the only reason you do not want to include polian's drafts prior to Belichick's arrival is not because belichick did not have a chance, but because polian's picks were so good that they prove he is a better drafter.   Polian is a better drafter. Oh and as for my comments on the colts loss (not failure), it was more me complaining about injuries than it was skill.  Yes I have some concerns about the colts.  The secondary is not one of them.  DT has been one for quite some time.  the youth of the O-line was also a concern.  I hope this year they will be better. 
    Posted by underdogg

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from jmann8222. Show jmann8222's posts

    Re: BB Proves He's the Master!

    Z - my apologies.  the volume of your comments is simply more than I care to digest in a message board discussion.  Besides, I am sure most of the comments are biased.  But I did see some things.  First - facts only - prowbowls and awards are fine, but player quality, are you kidding me?  Who's the judge, you? scouts, inc? LOL.  Hey, I am sure you can count on yourself to be objective.  :) You are right, though, I don't know how to argue.  so I will stick with the facts.     In the first round the colts are the better with or without Manning and James.  but manning and james should not be discounted simply because belichick was not in place.  manning and brady are the 2 best qbs in the league and receive multiple awards.  Just because polian drafted manning before belichick got a job is no reason to give the accolades to belichick for drafting brady when polian had done the same thing.  When defining who is better, polian's drafts of manning and james cannot be left out.  In fact, it is only when you add manning and james, that the colts do draft higher than the pats.  Without them, the pats draft higher than indy.  check the numbers.  So on this level you are wrong twice.  Regardless - if we don't use Manning and James, the colts have as many probowlers with fewer and higher picks.  Round one to polian. In the second round the colts are clearly better - from 03-07 colts won 4-0 including a DPOY, and don't give me the line about the player who died.  He had 3 years and no starts.  Of all of the busts you've tried to identify on the colts, attempting characterize a 3 year non-starter as an incomplete is ridiculous.  the avg career of a player is only 3 1/2 seasons.      - in the second round, prior to 03, the pats won 3-1 not including the extra NE bust bethel Johnson.  Regardless the numbers altogether show Indy is better, If you include Jerome Pathon and Mike Peterson, the colts are still better.  As for not including wheatley.  Why not?  didn't you include Mayo?  Can't have it both ways.  that's called a double standard.  Finally, the only reason you do not want to include polian's drafts prior to Belichick's arrival is not because belichick did not have a chance, but because polian's picks were so good that they prove he is a better drafter.   Polian is a better drafter. Oh and as for my comments on the colts loss (not failure), it was more me complaining about injuries than it was skill.  Yes I have some concerns about the colts.  The secondary is not one of them.  DT has been one for quite some time.  the youth of the O-line was also a concern.  I hope this year they will be better. 
    Posted by underdogg



    There is clearly more to the draft than your oversimplified colts-lover here would have you believe. It is not merely who you pick in the draft, it is the overall value recieved from each pick.
    For example, in 2007 the Patriots only kept 2 draftees, Brandon Merriweather and unknown backup db Mike Richardson. Yet I will tell you that 2007 was one of the best drafts in Patriots history.

    Why? you may ask. Well, they managed to pick up both Wes Welker and Randy moss in that draft for a second and fourth round pick respectively. I would be hard pressed to find any draft in the last ten years that managed to net a team that amount of talent.

    The colts have made some good draft day selections, yes. But as far as obtaining maximum value for each individual pick, BB is the master, and Polian doesn't even come close. Ignoring draft-day trades in evaluating a teams draft negates the purpose of said evaluation as trades are essential to forming a team.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    Re: BB Proves He's the Master!

    Jmann - no one disagrees with you on how bb uses his picks. he's probably the best personnel guy in the league.  I say as much more than once on this thread.  He likes veterans more than drafted players and he does an incredible job of getting them cheap. 

    But that was not the question.  This was purely a drafting question.  Even as BB has moved picks for players.  He's still had 2 more first round picks than the colts over the time and produced the same number of probowlers and the colts picked later in the round on average.  If we add manning and james then it is 9-9 and the pats picked later (manning 1, james 4 or 5) but then we have 5 probowlers. 

    no question belichick uses his picks.  frankly this year should have been fine without pioli.  Next year and the following years will show more how good belichick is.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Kmaxx. Show Kmaxx's posts

    Re: BB Proves He's the Master!

    Stop wasting your time and [Ignore] Colt Trolls.  Who cares what they have to say.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from rtuinila. Show rtuinila's posts

    Re: BB Proves He's the Master!

    underdogg, the problem I have with your premise that the Colt's are better at the draft than BB, is you use a popularity contest as some sort of validation of football ability. The probowl rewards the most popular players, not the best players and as such cannot be used as a gage of football ability.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    Re: BB Proves He's the Master!

    rt - I would agree with you somewhat.  I actually did not set that standard, Zbellino did.  It is 1/3 a popularity contest.  The other 2/3 coming from players and coaches which has to be respected.   

    That said, it is still better than Z simply stating who he thinks is better.  For example, Z said Joseph Addai did not earn his probowl selection while every other player did.  I just don't understand this.  Does Z know something the rest of us don't about how Addai was selected or is he simply revealing his bias?

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedsGhost. Show RedsGhost's posts

    Re: BB Proves He's the Master!

    I just read this thread from the beginning. That being said- If Underdog was my attorney, I'd fire him and hire Z. He downright sliced and diced Underdogs buttocks ( won't let me use B u t t ). UD said "toe to toe" and that can only start in the year 2000 when BB started drafting. Sorry Indy sucked so bad in the late 90's that they had the #1 overall pick and the #4 overall pick, but you still can't use them in a "toe to toe" because BB wasn't drafting then. AND Indy generally having the earlier picks ( NE- three #32's by virtual of winning the SB and #31 by being in the SB ) which means better talent available to them before NE gets to draft.
    Sounds like BB needs to hire Z as he doesn't let his hometown bias pursuade his arguements like UD has shown.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    Re: BB Proves He's the Master!

    Reds - Not an attorney.  never knew that was required on a message board. 

    Anyway, I get your point about the deeper meaning of "toe to toe", and I cannot refute it.  You got me.  Except that dissecting a cliche on a message board as if this were a court of law is a bit much, don't you agree.  But if it suits you, then really you wouldn't care what I said anyway, would you?  on a general level - "toe to toe" means I challenge you, and that is all I meant by it.  

    The point, of course, is who is better at drafting and if by virtue of the fact that BB was an assistant coach in 98 and 99 that I cannot consider the excellent picks that polian made in those years that are still having an impact today - 2008 mvp - then it is pointless to argue.  BB gets the benefit of his all pro QB, but Polian does not?  Seems silly doesn't it? 

    And rather than make an assumption about New England's picking place because of superbowls played in (if your going to dissect my cliches) maybe you should actually have some facts on your side. 

    first rd - pats had 9 picks 2000-2008 - Avg picking spot 20.  indy had 7 picks 2000-2008 - avg picking spot 26.  Zbellino tried to make the same statement and even provided the data to refute it.  Honestly, I am no attorney.  But the facts here would keep a case from even making it to a judge. 

    Red - don't let a few facts get in the way of your own bias. 
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from prairiemike. Show prairiemike's posts

    Re: BB Proves He's the Master!



      .  .  .  or you could simply stick to the Vincent LaGuardia Gambino defense:


              "Everything that guy just said is bullsh*t."




    Not that anyone asked me.


    Cool

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from bubthegrub2. Show bubthegrub2's posts

    Re: BB Proves He's the Master!

    That's probably the best type of argument to use in this place, Mike! And when we've made our point, can we say "I got no more use for this guy"? To truly compare skills pertaining to the draft, one must use the total picture, as the variables between spots and talent in any given class are critical factors. So by excluding the deals for Welker and Moss that takes away from who may have been selected. Underdogg is obtuse when speaking of his Colts. But the big picture is the improvement (if any) you've made on the team. And even some of those first round picks BB had (like Wilfork) were actually lower picks from the prior draft. So Wilfork for a second was a huge score. Also, though he may debate Polian's extra two years of decision making, he categorized it as being better "this decade". So the furthest you could go back would be January 1, 2000. "By rule" this decade didn't start until 1/1/2001. And we know how Underdogg feels about "cheaters"! And truth be told, since either of those dates the Patriots have had a more talented team through the roster. Polian likes "superstars" (and pays them as such), but the talent is thin at a lot of positions. As for him crowing about their injuries last season and winning 12 games, I've got to laugh at that! I'd like to see how many games they would have won without Manning, Addai, Sanders, Freeney, and Bethea! A QB who hadn't started a game since HS won 11 games, that should show how good BB has been at drafting! Who do you think filled in for all the injured players? Young draftees, for the most part. And as ultimately, the game's main objective is to win, which team has more wins in that time span? Not to mention three Lombardis to one. "These are the Cold Hard Football Facts (interesting site, they have a Brady/Manning comparison there Underdogg would loathe), and they cannot be disputed"! But like a high priced attorney, when confronted by the truth he can always find a way to spin it to sound good. This was truly an entertaining thread. I don't feel so bad about the amount of time I spend on this site. I give them both credit for being such loyal and diehard fans, though! But if I were "presiding" over the case, I'd say Z had the "preponderance of evidence" hands down.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from prairiemike. Show prairiemike's posts

    Re: BB Proves He's the Master!

    To that I can only add . . .

    "How many thicknesses would you say you've gone through?"


    Out.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    Re: BB Proves He's the Master!

    bub -

    You are as right as can be.  I did say this decade and I felt pretty comfortable when Z said in one post that he would base his arguement on the first round.  Then in another post added the second round.  then in another post added deeper rounds.  We all know the saying - if at first you don't succeed...  Anyway the add-ons got to be a bit much and I realized that I didn't treat myself fairly when belichick got the benefit of his all pro qb but polian didn't since he had already drafted one. 

    But, if you say that the decade doesn't start until 2001, ok.  It puts 50% of our first rounders in the probowl while NE still only manages 33%.  both teams end up with 12 probowlers NE has a DROY (which is marginal but I'll accept it - he didn't make the probowl) and Indy has a DPOY (who did make the probowl).  NE did have a SB MVP, but that is a bogus one game award that really doesn't define a player's caliber and no one really cares about it.  Besides, I saw it as bs attempt by Z because he knew NE won 3 sb's to indy's 1 so he could use that award to his favor. 

    ultimately, then, both teams have the same awards (although the droy is marginal) and indy has 2 fewer picks.  indy is better. 

    As for cold hard football facts. com.  They are a boston area based outfit.  Where do you think their allegience lies?
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Trox1. Show Trox1's posts

    Re: BB Proves He's the Master!

    Thank you Z for taking the time to clearly demonstrate, to any unbiased, partial observer that BB has been superior in personnel decisions and slightly better in drafting than Polian.  UD I respect your loyalty to your team and your desire to defend them(you would fit in well in the NE area) but you have without a doubt lost this debate.  
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from themightypatriots. Show themightypatriots's posts

    Re: BB Proves He's the Master!

    I don't see what there is to discuss.  The Colts' drafting has gotten them one super bowl this decade.  The Pats has gotten them three.  Nuff said.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from bubthegrub2. Show bubthegrub2's posts

    Re: BB Proves He's the Master!

    But, if you say that the decade doesn't start until 2001, ok.  It puts 50% of our first rounders in the probowl while NE still only manages 33%.        

    You're still missing my point. I'm not arguing this case with all the constraints you and Z have been adding on for days. I'm a bottom line guy. You speak of pro bowls, that's not much of a gauge on excellence. Peyton Manning would make the pro bowl if he threw twice as many INTs as TDs! But any bias aside, NE has been to the SB 4 out of 8 years this decade. That's a 50% rate of making it to the top stage. The Colts have made one. That's a 12.5% rate. Both teams have built well through the draft. But BB has built a solid team throughout. Polian has drafted many stars. In the end all this building is aimed at achieving one thing. Hoisting that Lombardi. And there BB has Polian 3 to 1. All smoke and mirrors aside, that fact speaks for itself, whoever may state it and whatever their allegiance!!!
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from prairiemike. Show prairiemike's posts

    Re: BB Proves He's the Master!

    Yeah, but Cincinnatti's helmets are wicked cool.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    Re: BB Proves He's the Master!

    Bub, you make a very fair point, which is why I have stated that in overall personnel decisions BB is the best.  But we were merely talking drafting here. 

    Let me put it this way - (and I'll miss some)

    A. Smith, Faulk, Dillon, Morris, Brown, Patten, Welker, Moss, Stallworth, K. Brady, McGinest, Washington, Cox, Johnson, Pfifer, Bruschi, Vrabel, Seau, Thomas, Colvin, Milloy, Poole, Law, Harrison, Vinateri, multiple O linemen. 

    All of these guys are significant contributors to the Pats success during this decade.  None of these guys are belichick draft guys.  There are more than 20 names listed here. 

    We all know that in the most team oriented sport the talent around a player helps that player earn awards.  For example, Tom Brady earned his mvp only when Welker and Moss arrived.  

    In every position grouping there are key players that did and do today play a signicant role in the success of the pats that are non-belichick drafted players. 

    Comparatively, how many non-polian players have been as significant for the colts.  I immediately count 8.  Vinateri, Vanderjagt, Harrison, Saturday, Glenn, Pollard, Brock, Reagor. 

    Some of this may be arguable, but by and large Polian's players are who contribute to the team.  And given that the team has avg'd about 11 wins a year this decade, that is spectacular and can't be defined as marginal talent as Z would have you believe. 

    Funny but all that marginal talent still produced the same number of probowlers.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from bubthegrub2. Show bubthegrub2's posts

    Re: BB Proves He's the Master!

    Funny but all that marginal talent still produced the same number of probowlers.           


    Well, I can give you that! Polian is the master at picking guys to make the pro bowl. Still, I'll take BB any day, as his picks make it to four times as many SUPER BOWLS! I don't even watch the pro bowl.
     
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