BB: Sacks Are Overrated

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from CatfishHunter. Show CatfishHunter's posts

    Re: BB: Sacks Are Overrated

    The sacks the Pats get the last 5 years or so have been coverage sacks by and large.  They simply don't have enough speed/power up front to do it any other way.  Other than Chandler Jones who else posesses that combination?

    That's the main difference between the Pats and true elite defenses.

    Four straight playoff exits without causing a single turnover is a sign of a defense that cannot pressure the QB.  Sure the Pats were decimated by injuries this year, but the data from 2010-2013 is significant.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: BB: Sacks Are Overrated

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:
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    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:
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    I bet the Seahawks wish they had defensive linemen as good as Chris Jones.

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    We had more sacks then seattle...without the most dominant NT in the league and a very good DT in Kelly and a top 5 MLB playing behind them.

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    Yes, and yet Seattle's line rattled Manning while ours got absolutely no pressure on him.

     

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    But you do realize you made a sarcastic comment about seattle wishing they had a player like Jones when we actually got to the QB more then they did after we lost the most dominant NT and his very solid back up for most of the season? 

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    True,

    Pats had 48 sacks on 1131 snaps or one every 23.56 snaps

    Sea had 44 sacks over 990 snaps which is one every 22.5 snaps

    Sea also had many more pressures than the Pats did on fewer snaps. It's beyond clear that Sea had the much more effective defensive line no matter how you work the numbers and Jones wouldn't even crack it.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from TFB12. Show TFB12's posts

    Re: BB: Sacks Are Overrated

    In response to CatfishHunter's comment:
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    The sacks the Pats get the last 5 years or so have been coverage sacks by and large.  They simply don't have enough speed/power up front to do it any other way.  Other than Chandler Jones who else posesses that combination?

    That's the main difference between the Pats and true elite defenses.

    Four straight playoff exits without causing a single turnover is a sign of a defense that cannot pressure the QB.  Sure the Pats were decimated by injuries this year, but the data from 2010-2013 is significant.

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    Yeah, the lack of defensive turnovers in the playoffs is very significant!  That is a fact!

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: BB: Sacks Are Overrated

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:
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    I bet the Seahawks wish they had defensive linemen as good as Chris Jones.

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    We had more sacks then seattle...without the most dominant NT in the league and a very good DT in Kelly and a top 5 MLB playing behind them.

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    Yes, and yet Seattle's line rattled Manning while ours got absolutely no pressure on him.

     

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    But you do realize you made a sarcastic comment about seattle wishing they had a player like Jones when we actually got to the QB more then they did after we lost the most dominant NT and his very solid back up for most of the season? 

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    I watch a lot of football (not just the Pats) and while Chris Jones did an admirable job filling in for Wilfork/Kelly, I didn't see anything that makes me think Jones was "extremely effective" pressuring the QB.  The Pats play good team defense--they're very well coached and they get some pressure because of the way they play as a unit--but individual linemen like Jones just aren't the athletes a team like Seattle had.   

     

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: BB: Sacks Are Overrated

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:
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    In response to TrueChamp's comment:
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    I bet the Seahawks wish they had defensive linemen as good as Chris Jones.

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    We had more sacks then seattle...without the most dominant NT in the league and a very good DT in Kelly and a top 5 MLB playing behind them.

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    Yes, and yet Seattle's line rattled Manning while ours got absolutely no pressure on him.

     

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    But you do realize you made a sarcastic comment about seattle wishing they had a player like Jones when we actually got to the QB more then they did after we lost the most dominant NT and his very solid back up for most of the season? 

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    I watch a lot of football (not just the Pats) and while Chris Jones did an admirable job filling in for Wilfork/Kelly, I didn't see anything that makes me think Jones was "extremely effective" pressuring the QB.  The Pats play good team defense--they're very well coached and they get some pressure because of the way they play as a unit--but individual linemen like Jones just aren't the athletes a team like Seattle had.   

     

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    Well said.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: BB: Sacks Are Overrated

    So does this mean Chandler Jones isn't that good?

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: BB: Sacks Are Overrated

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

    So does this mean Chandler Jones isn't that good?



    He's the best athlete we have on the line and has the highest potential.  I'm not sure he's elite yet, but he does have basic skills to become elite.  He was widely considered "raw" coming out of college, and many predicted it would take two or three years before he really showed his potential to its fullest.  I think he improved a lot last year over the year before and I'm optimistic this coming year he'll be even better.  I like that he defends well against the run as well as having good pass rushing skills.  He does need more effective pass rush moves, but that's something that can come with practice. I think the basic skills are there. 

     

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: BB: Sacks Are Overrated

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:
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    In response to mthurl's comment:
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    What Belichick is trying to say is that the guy getting the sack may be overrated, when in actuality it is the other guy who is providing the pressure. I agree with this. A good example is Nink, half of his sacks come from someone else applying the pressure while he cleans up. If the other guy is not providing pressure (Jones) then Nink won't get within shouting distance of that quarterback (see AFC Championship game). I think a big part of what is wrong with our defense is we don't have enough guys who can pressure - I see Chandler Jones doing it, but little else. I can see Jaime Collins being a pressure player, but that's on the outside and it's pretty obvious he's valuable in coverage...Chris Jones looks like he gets a little bit of pressure on the inside from hustle, playing low and his quickness, but we need much more than that.

    I'd love to see this team get someone dominant opposite Jones and then have Nink rotate in. I'm glad nink put together two seasons of back to back 8 sacks, but when you talk about sacks being overrated, this guy is textbook.

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    Sound theory...except that Nink lead us in QB pressures. 

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    So what you are saying is that he is the best pass rusher on the team? Who are the other pass rushers? And how many snaps did Nink play compared to them? I seem to recall nink playing almost every down the entire year because there was no one to back him up/no depth...does that account for something? The fact that he had probably had more opportunities than anyone in football (playing time wise) to get after the quarterback. And did he lead us in QB pressures last year too? Did he really lead us in footbal pressures this year? Is that a fact? Did Belichick give you that information off of coach's tape or did you read it in your new favorite website PFF? The same website that called Merriweather "the second best safety in the entire AFC" five years ago.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from stinkman. Show stinkman's posts

    Re: BB: Sacks Are Overrated

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:
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    So does this mean Chandler Jones isn't that good?

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    He's good we just need a couple of more like him, In case he has an off day. Lol.   like the sarcasm Babe.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: BB: Sacks Are Overrated

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:
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    I bet the Seahawks wish they had defensive linemen as good as Chris Jones.

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    We had more sacks then seattle...without the most dominant NT in the league and a very good DT in Kelly and a top 5 MLB playing behind them.

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    Yes, and yet Seattle's line rattled Manning while ours got absolutely no pressure on him.

     

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    But you do realize you made a sarcastic comment about seattle wishing they had a player like Jones when we actually got to the QB more then they did after we lost the most dominant NT and his very solid back up for most of the season? 

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    I watch a lot of football (not just the Pats) and while Chris Jones did an admirable job filling in for Wilfork/Kelly, I didn't see anything that makes me think Jones was "extremely effective" pressuring the QB.  The Pats play good team defense--they're very well coached and they get some pressure because of the way they play as a unit--but individual linemen like Jones just aren't the athletes a team like Seattle had.   

     

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    I think the point here is you are comparing what was essentially our 4rth guy on the DT depth chart to seattle's DT roster. But lemme guess, it's because they get guys with no "red flags" even though they gave red bryant 35 mill(15 guaranteed pats eng no need to reiterate) after he played in just 4, 6, and 7 games his 1st 3 years. Imagine if we signed that guy for a 35 million deal and he went on IR....I shutter to think of the reactions on this board.

    How much better is our front 7 with Chris Jones playing the Mike Wright or Jarvis Green role to VW and Kelly?

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: BB: Sacks Are Overrated

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:
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    I bet the Seahawks wish they had defensive linemen as good as Chris Jones.

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    We had more sacks then seattle...without the most dominant NT in the league and a very good DT in Kelly and a top 5 MLB playing behind them.

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    Yes, and yet Seattle's line rattled Manning while ours got absolutely no pressure on him.

     

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    But you do realize you made a sarcastic comment about seattle wishing they had a player like Jones when we actually got to the QB more then they did after we lost the most dominant NT and his very solid back up for most of the season? 

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    I watch a lot of football (not just the Pats) and while Chris Jones did an admirable job filling in for Wilfork/Kelly, I didn't see anything that makes me think Jones was "extremely effective" pressuring the QB.  The Pats play good team defense--they're very well coached and they get some pressure because of the way they play as a unit--but individual linemen like Jones just aren't the athletes a team like Seattle had.   

     

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    I think the point here is you are comparing what was essentially our 4rth guy on the DT depth chart to seattle's DT roster. But lemme guess, it's because they get guys with no "red flags" even though they gave red bryant 35 mill(15 guaranteed pats eng no need to reiterate) after he played in just 4, 6, and 7 games his 1st 3 years. Imagine if we signed that guy for a 35 million deal and he went on IR....I shutter to think of the reactions on this board.

    How much better is our front 7 with Chris Jones playing the Mike Wright or Jarvis Green role to VW and Kelly?

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    I"m not sure you watched the Seahawks much, but Bryant was pretty effective.  They basically had two complete defensive lines ( a three man and a four man) that they rotated.  Their depth on defensive line absolutely blew our depth out of the water.  No comparison.  

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: BB: Sacks Are Overrated

    In response to mthurl's comment:
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    In response to TrueChamp's comment:
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    In response to mthurl's comment:
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    What Belichick is trying to say is that the guy getting the sack may be overrated, when in actuality it is the other guy who is providing the pressure. I agree with this. A good example is Nink, half of his sacks come from someone else applying the pressure while he cleans up. If the other guy is not providing pressure (Jones) then Nink won't get within shouting distance of that quarterback (see AFC Championship game). I think a big part of what is wrong with our defense is we don't have enough guys who can pressure - I see Chandler Jones doing it, but little else. I can see Jaime Collins being a pressure player, but that's on the outside and it's pretty obvious he's valuable in coverage...Chris Jones looks like he gets a little bit of pressure on the inside from hustle, playing low and his quickness, but we need much more than that.

    I'd love to see this team get someone dominant opposite Jones and then have Nink rotate in. I'm glad nink put together two seasons of back to back 8 sacks, but when you talk about sacks being overrated, this guy is textbook.

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    Sound theory...except that Nink lead us in QB pressures. 

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    So what you are saying is that he is the best pass rusher on the team? Who are the other pass rushers? And how many snaps did Nink play compared to them? I seem to recall nink playing almost every down the entire year because there was no one to back him up/no depth...does that account for something? The fact that he had probably had more opportunities than anyone in football (playing time wise) to get after the quarterback. And did he lead us in QB pressures last year too? Did he really lead us in footbal pressures this year? Is that a fact? Did Belichick give you that information off of coach's tape or did you read it in your new favorite website PFF? The same website that called Merriweather "the second best safety in the entire AFC" five years ago.

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    I think we should have used Bucc and Andre Carter more but I'm not the coach and if you turn in a plus 25.1 against the run, while leading your team in QB pressures and 2nd in sacks I guess you get a lot of playing time.

    Point being you are wrong as usual about nink being the product of chandlers qb pressures. They both played the same amount of snaps and ninko had more pressures,  and I would be willing to bet chandler actually rushed the passer more(nink was aksed to seal the edge more with his dominate +25.1 rating).

    But then again you are a weather man and will not be held responsible for anything you say.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: BB: Sacks Are Overrated

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:
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    I bet the Seahawks wish they had defensive linemen as good as Chris Jones.

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    We had more sacks then seattle...without the most dominant NT in the league and a very good DT in Kelly and a top 5 MLB playing behind them.

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    Yes, and yet Seattle's line rattled Manning while ours got absolutely no pressure on him.

     

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    But you do realize you made a sarcastic comment about seattle wishing they had a player like Jones when we actually got to the QB more then they did after we lost the most dominant NT and his very solid back up for most of the season? 

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    I watch a lot of football (not just the Pats) and while Chris Jones did an admirable job filling in for Wilfork/Kelly, I didn't see anything that makes me think Jones was "extremely effective" pressuring the QB.  The Pats play good team defense--they're very well coached and they get some pressure because of the way they play as a unit--but individual linemen like Jones just aren't the athletes a team like Seattle had.   

     

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    I think the point here is you are comparing what was essentially our 4rth guy on the DT depth chart to seattle's DT roster. But lemme guess, it's because they get guys with no "red flags" even though they gave red bryant 35 mill(15 guaranteed pats eng no need to reiterate) after he played in just 4, 6, and 7 games his 1st 3 years. Imagine if we signed that guy for a 35 million deal and he went on IR....I shutter to think of the reactions on this board.

    How much better is our front 7 with Chris Jones playing the Mike Wright or Jarvis Green role to VW and Kelly?

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    I"m not sure you watched the Seahawks much, but Bryant was pretty effective.  They basically had two complete defensive lines ( a three man and a four man) that they rotated.  Their depth on defensive line absolutely blew our depth out of the water.  No comparison.  

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    Mebane, red bryant or chris clemons would not start over vince wilfork or Tommy kelly. Tell me they would. Bryant doesn't even start om his own team.

    Again, how much better is our d line with VW and Kelly?

    If the hawks lost mebane and red bryant and had to rely on more then 12 tackles from 32 year old chris clemons how much worst would their depth be? 

    We were injured prolate. Severely injured at multiple key starting positions.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from mellymel3. Show mellymel3's posts

    Re: BB: Sacks Are Overrated


    Sacks are "overrated" to a team not getting them at the right time...

    Look, they didn't get enough "pressure" at the right time in games when it counted....Vellano is gone if they DRAFT a decent DT  and DE/OLB, both of which they need...I doubt both VW and Kelly will be on the roster come end of training camp..

    One stat I'd like to see is a teams completion percentage againt the Pats D...that might tell us how our pass rush/Pass coverage defense is working...

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from BostonTrollSpanker. Show BostonTrollSpanker's posts

    Re: BB: Sacks Are Overrated

    OK - are strip sacks overrated? 

    I'm pretty sure even BB would say no to that. And if you don't get sacks, you won't get strip sacks. This is not hard to understand. 

    It's blatantly obvious the Pats were not able to apply enough pressure to QBs when it counted. I think most of us who are not lost deep in homerland understand that.

     

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: BB: Sacks Are Overrated

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:
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    I bet the Seahawks wish they had defensive linemen as good as Chris Jones.



    We had more sacks then seattle...without the most dominant NT in the league and a very good DT in Kelly and a top 5 MLB playing behind them.

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    Yes, and yet Seattle's line rattled Manning while ours got absolutely no pressure on him.

     

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    But you do realize you made a sarcastic comment about seattle wishing they had a player like Jones when we actually got to the QB more then they did after we lost the most dominant NT and his very solid back up for most of the season? 

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    I watch a lot of football (not just the Pats) and while Chris Jones did an admirable job filling in for Wilfork/Kelly, I didn't see anything that makes me think Jones was "extremely effective" pressuring the QB.  The Pats play good team defense--they're very well coached and they get some pressure because of the way they play as a unit--but individual linemen like Jones just aren't the athletes a team like Seattle had.   

     

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    I think the point here is you are comparing what was essentially our 4rth guy on the DT depth chart to seattle's DT roster. But lemme guess, it's because they get guys with no "red flags" even though they gave red bryant 35 mill(15 guaranteed pats eng no need to reiterate) after he played in just 4, 6, and 7 games his 1st 3 years. Imagine if we signed that guy for a 35 million deal and he went on IR....I shutter to think of the reactions on this board.

    How much better is our front 7 with Chris Jones playing the Mike Wright or Jarvis Green role to VW and Kelly?

    [/QUOTE]

    I"m not sure you watched the Seahawks much, but Bryant was pretty effective.  They basically had two complete defensive lines ( a three man and a four man) that they rotated.  Their depth on defensive line absolutely blew our depth out of the water.  No comparison.  

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    Mebane, red bryant or chris clemons would not start over vince wilfork or Tommy kelly. Tell me they would. Bryant doesn't even start om his own team.

    Again, how much better is our d line with VW and Kelly?

    If the hawks lost mebane and red bryant and had to rely on more then 12 tackles from 32 year old chris clemons how much worst would their depth be? 

    We were injured prolate. Severely injured at multiple key starting positions.

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    I don't think you really watch the Seahawks much.  If you watched them, you'd know that they rotate about seven linemen in and out through the game (Bryant, Mebane, Clemons, Avril, Bennett, McDaniel, and McDonald).  I'm not sure any of those guys is necessarily better than Wilfork (although given Wilfork's age it's closer that you might think), but I think some of them would start over Kelly and all of them would start over Chris Jones. 

     

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: BB: Sacks Are Overrated

    In response to DeadAhead2's comment:
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    I've always said this as well and agree.  Simpleton fans scour for sack totals, but ignore actually watching the games themselves and the player.

     

    9. Belichick has said that he views the sack statistic as overrated, in part because the player who gets the sack often didn’t produce the initial pressure. That’s why Belichick puts more stock in the “pressure” stat, and rookie defensive tackle Chris Jones was extremely impressive in that category in 2013. Because of a run of injuries at the position, Jones was pressed into early-down duties as well, and my view was that the 6-foot-1, 309-pounder wore down at times later in the season. Looking ahead, I could envision Jones in a Jarvis Green-type sub-rushing/fill-in starter role and being even more effective. 

     

    http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4759562/quick-hit-thoughts-around-nfl-patriots-18

     

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    Prove it

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: BB: Sacks Are Overrated

    In response to rkarp's comment:
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    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:
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    I bet the Seahawks wish they had defensive linemen as good as Chris Jones.

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    Lol. 

    for a championship caliber team, cjones, vellano, soap, siliga are all backups If, if they could even make the team. 

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    Assume Vince and Kelly do return. Assume the pats do draft a DT. Thats 3 roster locks. How many do they keep? 4? 5? 

    I assume Siliga is back. That's 4. Does Jones or Vellano even make the team next year? 

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    Jones maybe, vellano should not. What about armstead? DL is as fluid a situation now. If vw and Kelly return, I would say thy better carry 5 dt's. I agile if vw and Kelly can't go again. Devastating.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from tcal2-. Show tcal2-'s posts

    Re: BB: Sacks Are Overrated

    What else is a guy who started Tully Banta-Cain and Dink supposed to say........umm I suck at drafting and signing Free Agent players that can actually get to and sack the QB.  What a freaking joke.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from kjfitone. Show kjfitone's posts

    Re: BB: Sacks Are Overrated

    In response to DeadAhead2's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I've always said this as well and agree.  Simpleton fans scour for sack totals, but ignore actually watching the games themselves and the player.

     

    9. Belichick has said that he views the sack statistic as overrated, in part because the player who gets the sack often didn’t produce the initial pressure. That’s why Belichick puts more stock in the “pressure” stat, and rookie defensive tackle Chris Jones was extremely impressive in that category in 2013. Because of a run of injuries at the position, Jones was pressed into early-down duties as well, and my view was that the 6-foot-1, 309-pounder wore down at times later in the season. Looking ahead, I could envision Jones in a Jarvis Green-type sub-rushing/fill-in starter role and being even more effective. 

     

    http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4759562/quick-hit-thoughts-around-nfl-patriots-18

     

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    they have to at least get pressure. every time brady gets sacked it kills our drives. sacks keep the other teams offense from scoring and staying on the field. the patriots get their share of sacks but rarely do when they need it most or in big games. i dont think they even touched manning in the playoff game. that is unexcusable play for a defense in a championship game imo.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: BB: Sacks Are Overrated

    In response to PatsLifer's comment:
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    In response to rkarp's comment:
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    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:
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    I bet the Seahawks wish they had defensive linemen as good as Chris Jones.

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    Lol. 

    for a championship caliber team, cjones, vellano, soap, siliga are all backups If, if they could even make the team. 

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    Assume Vince and Kelly do return. Assume the pats do draft a DT. Thats 3 roster locks. How many do they keep? 4? 5? 

    I assume Siliga is back. That's 4. Does Jones or Vellano even make the team next year? 

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    Jones maybe, vellano should not. What about armstead? DL is as fluid a situation now. If vw and Kelly return, I would say thy better carry 5 dt's. I agile if vw and Kelly can't go again. Devastating.

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    You mean, like "leaky"?

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from soxrockursox. Show soxrockursox's posts

    Re: BB: Sacks Are Overrated

    Did we really need a thread to say the obvious about sacks and other pressure ?Geeze BB really think a big serect out here lol.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: BB: Sacks Are Overrated

    In response to JimfromFlorida's comment:
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    Funny how some that have posted just do not understand what BB actually said.

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    You noticed that, too, eh?

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: BB: Sacks Are Overrated

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:
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    In response to JimfromFlorida's comment:
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    In response to TFB12's comment:
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    In response to JimfromFlorida's comment:
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    Funny how some that have posted just do not understand what BB actually said.

    [/QUOTE]


    You are right about that Jim.  Looks like Rusty is taking something said and twisting it to fit his agenda.

    Sacks do matter, who is credited for the sack might be over rated, but sacks do matter.

    [/QUOTE]


    Yes they matter but how many times do we see a QB rushed from the left only to run into the RDE coming in. Or how Wilfolk can push two guys up the middle while the guy on his left or right gets a free rush to the QB. Bill is just saying a guy that creates havoc is just as important (and maybe more) as the guy that gets the sack. Without the presure you will have no sack.

    [/QUOTE]

    ^ this

    [/QUOTE]


    Precisely the point that BB was making.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from CatfishHunter. Show CatfishHunter's posts

    Re: BB: Sacks Are Overrated

    In response to tcal2-'s comment:
    [QUOTE]

    What else is a guy who started Tully Banta-Cain and Dink supposed to say........umm I suck at drafting and signing Free Agent players that can actually get to and sack the QB.  What a freaking joke.

    [/QUOTE]


    Tcal brings his A-game even in the off-season.

     

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