Belichick needs to stop with this two defensive tackle and two linebackers playing at defensive end alignment.

It gets zero pressure on opposing QB's and the other team can easily block it with 5 offensive linemen, which then allows their tightends to get out and make plays.

Back in the day we used to run the 3/4, and when we went to nickel packages we ran the 3/3/5. Granted we don't have Wilfork, Seymour and Warren along the front but Wilfork, Brace and Love would suffice with the amount of linebacker talent we possess.

Last night I almost gagged when I saw us roll out Kyle Love as the only true D lineman on a play with Cunningham at tackle next to him with Ninck and Jones on a crucial 3rd down... you probably remember it, Flacco ran 5 yards for the first down because our line got blown off the ball. We need more beef on the field.

I implore you BB, let this experiment die, it hangs our secondary out to dry, opposing O Lines wear our undersized four man front into the ground by the start of the 2nd half and we continually give up sizable leads.  

Go back to the 3/4 and the 3/3/5!

I didn't understand that either Wozzy. WHen I think 3-4 gap controller I think someone like Seymour (6'5 310) not Jones (6'5 260) with th personel the Pats have a Dreaderick, Love, Wilfork might make more sense. You can;t make positional moves unless you have the personel to do it successfully. IMO Nink and Jone had a tough game and I kept wanting to see Hightower and Mayo in blitz packages or Cunningham in the 4-3. There has to be some way to set the edge and get a pass rush. Flacco could light a cigar and watch the Star Wars Trilogy.

 

 

The Pats need a game where the O and D are  both successful.

I kept hoping for a run blitz with Hightower/Spikes but never saw one.  I guess the coaches felt the risk was too high.

The Ravens are the type of team we'll see in the playoffs, so a zero pressure game is unacceptable.

Agree with that Hannah,

People may belittle this but we missed Deaderick last night. He plays that rush end/tackle position that Bobby Hamilton, Mike Wright made popular. He's a legit 300 pounds but with quick twitch muscle and fast to the QB.  

This two-tackle front with Vince and Love is too small, let's get one more tackle out there like Brace or Forston and move Jones and Ninc back to outside Linebacker.  Play a true 3/4 and 3/3/5 hybrid, on rush downs one could sub Bequette and Cunningham in at the rush end.

This is a call for more beef on D.

I have to think BB rations his player's snaps over a season?

I'm with you on this. Ninco looked like a child trying to bull rush an elephant last night.

A fine example...

And I see Jones as a McGinest outside linebacker, not the Pete Carroll defensive end Willie that nearly broke his back and ended his career.

The sad part is that alignment probably is designed to do what it doesn't do...pass rush. These guys are supposed to be our pass rushers - Nincovich has to sit - there is no way this guy should be on the field...enough is enough. Give Trevor Scott a chance, how could he do worse?

Cunningham is put in that spot because he is strictly a up field burst type of guy - on the outside he doesn't bend around the corner like a pass rusher needs to do (see Chandler Jones...that guy can bend). I could see them taking the little snaps Cunningham gets away because he does next to nothing even in that limited role. Truthfully he's playing the spot Fenene was supposed to bring to the table - a guy that can pressure inside. Love moves pretty good for a big guy, so does Wilfork. Maybe they should bring back the 34 look.

Wozzy. This is why I see the Pats brass drafting a DE/DT type or even a second nose like Jesse Williams in 2013. Would have liked to have seen more of Brace. The Pats D was getting gashed by Rice, Pierce and Leach (run blocker) and they used that to set up play action and got so much pass protection that they got big gains and once again we got to hear about Flacco's arm strength.

If have said it once I've said a thousand times being DB in this current NFL (and without a pass rush) is the most difficult job after QB. You have to use the bump zone liberally or you get burned nearly every pass play.

I am not going to rag on McCourty; he had about 3 passes defensed and missed the INT. Flacco had way to much time to throw; even Kyle Boller would have had success without a pass rush. That said, Oher played well against Jones, but there could have been a couple of holding calls. Nink got owned on the opposite side pretty much the whole game. It seems like the Pats are missing a legit 4-3 end and need an upgrade at DT (someone to take the pressure/double teams off Wilfork). What bothers me most is that the run D looked fairly solid going into this game, but Rice(great player) burned them repeatedly. IMO if you want a three man front you need a 6'4 280+ type DE gap controller to be succesful which puts Jones at OLB/Elephant spot.

Yes this game was poorly officiated, but that works both ways. If Brady converts on 3rd 16 with 2:12 left, the Pats essentially win this game. That or a huge defensive stop.

Agreed,

I haven't really looked towards next year's draft yet, I'm so stuck in the moment watching this year's team.  There is so much promise; maybe we're not running a more complex three man front due to the learning curve of the youngsters?  

A four man linebacking crew of Mayo, Spikes inside with Jones and Ninck/Hightower outside has to be the youngest/most talented/deepest LB crew in the NFL.  Hightower should provide depth all the way across the LB crew but primarily share reps with Ninck on the weak side or slide inside to spell Spikes.

I'd like to see Brace and Wilfork rotating at nose/end with Love or Deaderick rotating at the other end, maybe get Fortson some reps and in long passing downs put a Cunningham/Bequette in at end.  

I do think the brass may take a D tackle with next year's pick, but then I predicted they would do so this past draft and they didn't.  I still think Gerrard Warren is sitting home waiting for a call before the playoffs and unretire again.

Some more beef on the field would have helped in the dogfight we found ourselves in last night.   Especially with the wild west show that the ref's created in the first half, opposed to the ultra tight flag frenzy that they called in the 2nd half.

Raven's toughened up and ran the ball more, we should have slammed the door despite the refs.  I never blame the officials but that was not a loss, all the way to the final kick they called it backwards.

+1 good thread

Yes I agree completely. Get your best players on the field as much as possible and this would be the way to do it. Ridley is our best running back but for some reason he only got 13 carries last night and Woodhead got 15. I know that's what the game plan is but it didn't work out last night.

Biggest personnel problem I saw last night was Nink at DE, and Woodhead as the lead back?? Nink at end isn't new for this season, and I agree we need to see some traditional 300 pounders in there. Imo Nink has been less effective playing with his hand in the dirt.

Agree that Ninck above all else is an outside linebacker, at end he is at a distinct disadvantage.  If he platooned in the 3/4 with Hightower the tightend coverage would be blanket.  Prior to last night Ninck would get swapped with Deaderick and the D would stiffen.  

I hope BB utilizes the real D lineman on the roster more, I hope we get to see Fortson, Justin Francis and Jake Bequette in a pinch. Maybe they're just not ready yet or playing well enough to bring on the gameday roster?  

Either way BB will protect his D linemen until we near the playoffs and he'll hope his offense will out score the opposition, without the good work of some very poor officiating they should win more than lose and we'll have to listen to the anti-defense moaners here until the playoff's when they suddenly "come from nowhere" and perform admirably.

i don't know if it matters much if the pats are consistently conservative on their rush approach even on 3rd and long

Without at least three big bodies upfront to match up with the five O linemen this defense gets stifled in the pass rush and run on.  

It's going to get worse as the season wears on, our undersized ends/OLB's like Jones are going to get hurt matching up with tackles that weigh 50 pounds or more.  

Even if this move was smart in a "passing league" with these rookie refs this is no longer the case, the NFL looks like it time warped back to the 80's with the fights, scrums and hard nosed running; we should adjust accordingly.

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In response to patsfan76's comment:

"I agree for the most part. Not sure who would play on the edges of the 3-4 as I dont think C.Jones is ready to handle all that comes with the position but I def. want to see more of the 3-3-5 they used some of last year. That is my Favorite defensive alignment and with Mayo, spikes and hightower it suits their strenghts."

i agree with this and with about everything said in this thread.

All good posts. The only good thing I can take away from last game is that the ravens d also gave up 30 points. No easy task against that defense. 

I saw this as the first real test for the pats d and they didn't perform well on any level of the defense. Agree with wozz it all starts upfront and if we don't have a legit de to pair with jones, we are cooked. What is Andre carter up to these days? If he was at full strength he and jones would be a good pair. 

Love in mu mind should be backing up Wilfork same with brace. If we run more 4 man lines, I want us to go get an atjletic DT. I like them using Cunningham here and could see bequette possibly used here as well. I still think there are some more effective combos they could try, get some speed on the fiEld and please once and a while send 5 or6 after the QB. If the secondary is going to get torched, I would rather make it more difficult on the QB to make a hot read rather than surgically pick us apart...kind of like tb when his protection is good.

 

In response to PatsLifer's comment:

good points except re :

"The only good thing I can take away from last game is that the ravens d also gave up 30 points. No easy task against that defense. "

that defense walked thru our line and didnt have suggs, how you think balt d will look come playoffs with sugss.

pats need to improve drastically in coaching, o line, and the whole defense. and we need to pick up a starting cb (if you cant see the cb need, you dont know cb play. no problem with that. but dont get offensive just becasue you disagree becasue you cant see it)

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Pats don't have the LB group to play 3/4. Jones is strictly up the field player and Spikes and Hightower are lost in space when the other team spreads the field.

lots of Nink critics, but speaks volumes that Scott and Bequette cannot get on the field

In response to rkarp's comment:

It does speak volumes, unfortunately it probably says that Bequette and Scott aren't very good. Bequette played the right side in the pre season, so maybe that is why they won't throw him out there on the opposite side, but really he didn't show much in pre season anyways. Scott is the guy I'd think we will start to see on the field taking reps away from Ninc. I really think the only reason we see Ninc out there in the first place is because he's versatile and he knows the defense.

We saw Scott on the field late last game and he wasn't effective either, my point isn't that Ninck needs to be replaced, rather he needs to be moved to outside linebacker and we need to replace him with a 310 pound D lineman. Bequette and Scott are both outside linebackers, as large as Jake is he is still 30 pounds shy of the 300 pound minimum I'm talking about.

Rkarp we certainly can run the 3/4, Jones would play the McGinest/LT 'elephant' outside linebacker position that would ask him to rush the passer 90% of the time. Spikes and Mayo inside with Hightower providing depth, Ninck outside on the weakside with Donte getting some reps there as well.  It would have been nice to have Fletcher there to provide depth but we're not short on talent.

If we don't have the personnel to run the 3/4 it's because we're light at DT not linebacker. But I think it's more a case of BB rationing players so they last a full season, and this 2/4/5 package is his newest version of "bend don't break" and his answer to a new, pass heavy NFL.  

To this I would say if it ain't broke don't fix it, go back to a 3/4, when we go nickel package do whatever you want but we need more mass on the field among the front three so that our outside linebackers can get free in the pass rush and our D Backs aren't hung out to dry trying to cover all day.

Two defensive tackles and two linebackers VS five O linemen is a matchup we lose almost every time.  We get next to no pressure and opposing teams can run along our edges way too easy.

In response to wozzy's comment:

Woz, these lb's are exposed against the pass. Either 3 or 4 of them, Jones at this point in his career is a one trick pony, Spikes and Hightower can't cover at all, and Mayo is average. Why do you think the Pats were in cover 2 against the Ravens? 

Smith, Boldin, Rice, pats couldn't game plan them all leaving mccourt and Arrington isolated most of the game. Gregory is a step slow for Safety help anChung is always taking his first step incorrectly reading the play and having to catch up.

D is better than last year, but still a work in progress. BB needs to be on top of his game to compensate for these players