Belichick switch back to a 3 man front!

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Belichick switch back to a 3 man front!

    In response to wozzy's comment:

    I still contend that this is the real problem with the D, it's this soft scheme, not the players.



    I thought I'd bump this thread because from where I'm sitting this is still a change that should be made.  Hopefully with the addition of Armond Armstead and possibly more D Line help coming in training camp we'll see a return to more 3/4 and 3/3/5 alignments.  It certainly broke my heart watching the Ravens run it against us...

     
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  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Belichick switch back to a 3 man front!

    The Giants built a 4/3 from the ground up, we used a 3/4 for a decade and started using this 2/5/4 hybrid just recently as an every down package.  

    Belichick always used nickel hybrid packages but really we have to get tougher, which to me means getting more beef on the field, getting Wilfork and Love some help.  

    Maybe the Ravens didn't sack Brady but they certainly put some shots on him and collapsed the pocket better, faster than we did.  This package gets no sacks unless the defensive backfield has blanket coverage everytime and we get a coverage sack.  

    Qb's have all day to throw against us, if our defense sux like many here contend, this is the reason not because our linebackers and defensive backfield sux.

     
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  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from dapats1281. Show dapats1281's posts

    Re: Belichick switch back to a 3 man front!

    In response to ricky12684's comment:

    baltimore is actually a hybird defense also they ran quit a bit of 4 man fronts against NE with suggs and kruger at DE.

    NE doesn't have the personel to run a 3-4 anymore apparently. who plays OLB? who plays DE? armstead hasn't played a single down in the NFL and i don't think he has any experience in the 3-4.



    Didn't Chandler Jones come out as a hybrid DE/OLB? He's a little long, like Aldon Smith, so I'm not sure if he could play coverage. In a 3-4, I think the LBs could be Jones-Mayo-Spikes-Hightower.

    The problem is they don't have the DEs to do it. If I'm not mistaken, the last time they went 3-4, Love played NT and Wilfork at DE. Wilrfork is best suited for NT, so they would need to find 2 DEs

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Belichick switch back to a 3 man front!

    bump

    Both teams in the Super Bowl continue to use the 3/4, we have to fix this in the offseason.  If you want to really see what I'm talking about look at the Ravens depth chart and what you'll find among the front three is three guys (Samoans) who weigh closer to 400 pounds apeice, even their back ups are huge.  

    They rotate their linebackers around to create pressure from all angles.  We need more beef, that's evident.  The 49ers run a similar front but are much lighter along the line but make up for it with bigger stronger linebackers and quickness.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Belichick switch back to a 3 man front!

    In response to wozzy's comment:

     

    bump

    Both teams in the Super Bowl continue to use the 3/4, we have to fix this in the offseason.  If you want to really see what I'm talking about look at the Ravens depth chart and what you'll find among the front three is three guys (Samoans) who weigh closer to 400 pounds apeice, even their back ups are huge.  

    They rotate their linebackers around to create pressure from all angles.  We need more beef, that's evident.  The 49ers run a similar front but are much lighter along the line but make up for it with bigger stronger linebackers and quickness.

     



    I like 3-4 too, but it requires really talented players (both DL and OLB) who are both big and quick.  Plus the OLBs really need to be versatile, playing hybrid DE/LB roles.  I think 4-3 works better with more typical size/speed combinations and less versatile edge players, which is why BB has moved toward it recently.  With the right talent, I'd love to see more 3-4, but I think talent is going to dictate scheme a bit. 

     

     

     
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  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Belichick switch back to a 3 man front!

    In response to leatherhelmet's comment:

    If we are to switch to back to or employ more 3-4 looks we need way more speed in our LB corps. They would thump against the run but only Mayo shows consistant Blitzing ability and we would still get exposed by faster Mobile QB's. 2 names immediately jump out in this years draft that with the addition of Amrstead could set this D up nicely for the future

    SS Jonathan Cyprien

    LB Zaviar Gooden

     We are woefully slow footed 



    I can't agree with this at all, if we switch back to more 3/4 we need more talent on the defensive line.  Sorry but where does this slow footed idea come from, Mayo and Hightower were both some of the most talented, athletic players in their respective draft classes, Spikes is a thumper who should stay close to the line of scrimmage anyhow and had one of the most impressive cone drill/shuttle in his draft class so he is quick in four directions.

    We get beat at linebacker because the guys in front of them don't require attention and we can't get to the QB, so pass coverage breaks down.  Lets take the typical Belichick approach to this off season, if he wants to play more 3/4 he finds a young player to play end (Armstead) and follows up with a vet presence or another draft pick to compete with him.

    This will be the final step in the rebuilding of this defense, they'll need to learn how to be tougher but hopefully the sting of losing will stay with them.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Belichick switch back to a 3 man front!

    Wozzy, do you want to see more of the old 2-gap approach too?  I think that's a harder one to go back too unless they get three very talented big DLs.  I also don't know if that's the best approach for pass rush.  It's highly effective against the run, though.  

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Belichick switch back to a 3 man front!

    Interesting quote from the Raven's Harbaugh, pretty much saying what I was that talent dictates scheme to a large degree . . .

    "When you watch our defense you'll see that it is all based on personnel," said John Harbaugh, who made the easy choice to maintain the 3-4 system the Ravens were already running when he became head coach in 2008 -- even though he had previously spent years as an assistant coach with the Philadelphia Eagles, who ran a dominant 4-3 defense under legendary coordinator Jim Johnson.

    "That's the main thing, the personnel and the guys you have," Harbaugh continued. "We try to set all of our schemes up, in all three phases, around the guys that we have to put them in position to do the things that they do best. But there are a lot of elements of the 4-3 in what we do as well. We've been in over fronts plenty of times this year. We've been in under fronts plenty of times this year. Terrell Suggs is such a hybrid type of player, he allows you to do so many different things. He can play like a defensive end and he can play like a drop outside linebacker. And you know (backup rush linebacker) Paul Kruger is very versatile too, as is (strong-side linebacker) Courtney Upshaw. So those guys give you the ability - I would call us more of a multiple front."

     
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: Belichick switch back to a 3 man front!

    I just want to see them get some decent defensive linemen, I don't care what scheme they put them in at this point....better players=better defense. I'm excited about Armstead - and I almost never do that with young players that haven't played in the NFL. I just like what I saw on him, I really believe he would of been a late first round pick...that's something.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from tcal2-. Show tcal2-'s posts

    Re: Belichick switch back to a 3 man front!

    or just Draft more talented players and pay for tier 1 Free Agents.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Belichick switch back to a 3 man front!

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    Wozzy, do you want to see more of the old 2-gap approach too?  I think that's a harder one to go back too unless they get three very talented big DLs.  I also don't know if that's the best approach for pass rush.  It's highly effective against the run, though.  



    I liked the old approach because it allowed BB to disguise where pressure was coming from, including the inside when he allowed his D Linemen to shoot a gap and attack.  Also if the three interior guys are handling the 5 offensive linemen then the linebackers are free to do more.  I also agree with the quote above from Harbaugh and it's relevance, that being said if we really focus on the D line this off season we will have no weaknesses on this defense assuming we sign Talib and find a decent safety (Reed or Tavon Wilson?)

    The Ravens are the blueprint, or the Pat's teams of old... beef upfront, that's what we've been missing along with a healthy dose of toughness.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: Belichick switch back to a 3 man front!

    You may be right Wozz but seems like we are down 2 de's to play that 3 man front. Unless of course you think armstead and deaderick are those guys? I do think we have the lb corps to pull it off . 

    Seems like we are currently caught in the middle personnel wise. We have a bunch of 4-3 de types, some decent dt's but not nearly a speedy enough lb corps to play a 4-3. Conversely, big lb's, big nt but nothing to speak of at de to play a 3-4. Kind of makes me wonder what blueprint bb has been drafting to? 

    Could armstead and deaderick be those guys? Anyone in FA or via the draft fit the 3-4 de mold? 

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Belichick switch back to a 3 man front!

    I think BB could package picks and move up in the first round this year, we don't have a lot of room to sign rookies with all our free agents that need contracts.  Even though Armstead looks very promising I like to use the Parcells/Belichick method for filling roster spots, that being if you have one roster spot to fill, than you find two people who can compete for the job so Armstead is one and a promising rookie or a free agent willing to sign for less (Seymour?) to compete.

    I'm resigning myself to the likelyhood that Wes Welker is going to play elsewhere next season.  A front of Wilfork at nose, Love/Deaderick at one end and player X/Armstead at the other end is a solid front line, hopefully Myron Pryor and Forston will provide depth.  And don't get me wrong, we'll still run the 4 man front to conserve the big guys, but we'll run it like we did in the old days when it was just a nickel package; passing downs and long third downs.  

    The Ravens became susceptable to the run when Ngata went down after the lights came back on, Kapernick had more time to throw.  I know DT isn't a fan favorite for a draft pick and everybody here just looks at the results when good QB's play against us, but they look good and our coverage looks bad because we don't sack; period.  The raw data and my eyeballs tell me this is true.

    We need another guy (or two) who plays like King Kong next to Vince, our defense will magically start making plays, our defensive backs will go from "worst" in the league to first and our linebackers will have a lot of room to make plays.  Last year we had some of the best linebacker and secondary units in the entire NFL, what we didn't have is the toughness in front of them to protect them, they were always playing back on their heels and had to cover for way too long.  It's humanly impossible to cover for that long.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: Belichick switch back to a 3 man front!

    there are many on here that want a DT or two in the draft and FA. I agree it all begins upfront, so getting a legit starter next to vw is critical. Question is do go get a guy that is better suited to play end on a 3 man line or inside next to Vince on a 4 man line?

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Belichick switch back to a 3 man front!

    In response to PatsLifer's comment:

    there are many on here that want a DT or two in the draft and FA. I agree it all begins upfront, so getting a legit starter next to vw is critical. Question is do go get a guy that is better suited to play end on a 3 man line or inside next to Vince on a 4 man line?



    An every down DT would be ideal, someone who could back up Wilfork at nose but could easily slide over to end to get our three best players on the field. In a perfect world Armstead is as good as we hope and can play that tall Seymour role at one end and the player we pick in the draft could play the other end, that way Love who is very versitile could provide relief at all three d line positions and Deaderick could play rush end on third downs/passing downs because in this perfect scenerio we would be holding opposing teams to longer third down attempts.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Belichick switch back to a 3 man front!

    While Baltimore has lost many players on their defense, they are still loading up at the D line position.  Big upfront means they can afford to take chances on the backend of their defense, should the worst happen and they experience injury amongst their linebacker corps, they'll have enough depth to weather the storm by playing an old fashioned 4/3 with Suggs or Wiley at defensive end.

    New Englands defensive front needs to match the beef and toughness these guys will field, let's hope the draft and Armon Armstead will provide us answers at our biggest defensive need?!

    http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/03/23/john-harbaugh-has-big-plans-for-best-in-the-nfl-haloti-ngata/

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: Belichick switch back to a 3 man front!

    In response to wozzy's comment:

    While Baltimore has lost many players on their defense, they are still loading up at the D line position.  Big upfront means they can afford to take chances on the backend of their defense, should the worst happen and they experience injury amongst their linebacker corps, they'll have enough depth to weather the storm by playing an old fashioned 4/3 with Suggs or Wiley at defensive end.

    New Englands defensive front needs to match the beef and toughness these guys will field, let's hope the draft and Armon Armstead will provide us answers at our biggest defensive need?!

    http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/03/23/john-harbaugh-has-big-plans-for-best-in-the-nfl-haloti-ngata/



    http://www.patriots.com/news/blog/article-1/Report-Patriots-interested-in-Chargers-DL-Martin/34dd83c3-9bc8-4e17-be07-0ac9ea88084e

    I just saw this thread or wouldn't have started one with this topic. I agree BB needs to use the 3-4. We have talent all over the place at the LB position and we need all these guys on the field. Mayo,Spikes,Hightower,Nink. If we get another gap filler next to VW we will focre more then 1 double team on the line(like VW and Seymour used to/Ted Washington/Traylor...etc..)  

    Anyway I agree with your notion that BB is looking to plug the D-line with more DT's to open up the edge for guys like Nink,Jones,Hightower and Abraham(or whoever we sign)

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Belichick switch back to a 3 man front!

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:

     

    http://www.patriots.com/news/blog/article-1/Report-Patriots-interested-in-Chargers-DL-Martin/34dd83c3-9bc8-4e17-be07-0ac9ea88084e

    I just saw this thread or wouldn't have started one with this topic. I agree BB needs to use the 3-4. We have talent all over the place at the LB position and we need all these guys on the field. Mayo,Spikes,Hightower,Nink. If we get another gap filler next to VW we will focre more then 1 double team on the line(like VW and Seymour used to/Ted Washington/Traylor...etc..)  

    Anyway I agree with your notion that BB is looking to plug the D-line with more DT's to open up the edge for guys like Nink,Jones,Hightower and Abraham(or whoever we sign)



    Vaughn Martin wouldn't be much an upgrade to Love or Deaderick, it might even be a downgrade or another camp body signing.  I really hope they target someone in the 1st round and move to get him much like Jones and Hightower.  D line is an area we've gone cheap on the past few years even though they've tried to target some high priced guys like Red Bryant they couldn't lure them away.   Truthfully we've never recovered from Ty Warren's career ending back injury, we lost a 1st round talent and had a hard time acquiring a replacement, its time we expended those draft resources for an influx of D Tackle talent.

    I'm very high on Armstead but I've thought we needed two #1 draft talents for a while, one to replace Seymour and another for the surprise loss of Warren which hurt us bad.

     

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: Belichick switch back to a 3 man front!

    In response to wozzy's comment:

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:

     

     

    http://www.patriots.com/news/blog/article-1/Report-Patriots-interested-in-Chargers-DL-Martin/34dd83c3-9bc8-4e17-be07-0ac9ea88084e

    I just saw this thread or wouldn't have started one with this topic. I agree BB needs to use the 3-4. We have talent all over the place at the LB position and we need all these guys on the field. Mayo,Spikes,Hightower,Nink. If we get another gap filler next to VW we will focre more then 1 double team on the line(like VW and Seymour used to/Ted Washington/Traylor...etc..)  

    Anyway I agree with your notion that BB is looking to plug the D-line with more DT's to open up the edge for guys like Nink,Jones,Hightower and Abraham(or whoever we sign)

     



    Vaughn Martin wouldn't be much an upgrade to Love or Deaderick, it might even be a downgrade or another camp body signing.  I really hope they target someone in the 1st round and move to get him much like Jones and Hightower.  D line is an area we've gone cheap on the past few years even though they've tried to target some high priced guys like Red Bryant they couldn't lure them away.   Truthfully we've never recovered from Ty Warren's career ending back injury, we lost a 1st round talent and had a hard time acquiring a replacement, its time we expended those draft resources for an influx of D Tackle talent.

     

    I'm very high on Armstead but I've thought we needed two #1 draft talents for a while, one to replace Seymour and another for the surprise loss of Warren which hurt us bad.

     




    I don't know, S.D was 5th in the LG vs run last year giving up 3.8 ypc(just ahead of us) and this guy was a big reason why. I would like to see us draft a stud DT but don't expect us to be drafting in the 1st rd this year.

    Wish Seymour would come back for 1 last shot at a title. We need his swagger in the locker room! He needs a ring for his pinky finger...

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Philskiw1. Show Philskiw1's posts

    Re: Belichick switch back to a 3 man front!

    If we could get 2 good players ith all our picks I'd be happy with D line and OLB.  Or D line and O line.   This team would be so much better. If we get a pass rush the rest of what we have is good enough.  

    I know we're light at WR but we can fill that with camp cuts and UDFA's

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from SilverSun. Show SilverSun's posts

    Re: Belichick switch back to a 3 man front!

    Love is not the answer; need to draft a powerful DT in first round - and this draft has plenty of them.

     

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